Would you count the show successful if it would get the viewership of Shadow and Bone (1.7 million)/The Boys?

[eva.reves]

Naturally, we will never know the exact numbers, but there are pr materials. (I will not bring it up that the population of the US is 332 million.)

Shadow and Bone, despite being hyped up to the sky, 'racked up 721 million minutes of viewing time (in 3 days), equivalent to an average audience of about 1.75 million viewers (based on its total running time of 413 minutes). It finished second among original series to The Falcon and the Winter Soldier on Disney+ (796 million) and third overall.'

The Boys (Amazon): According to Nielsen the first season of The Boys had attracted 8 million total viewers in its first 10 days of release (This must be a global number, because ‘Jack Ryan S2 topped Amazon’s ‘The Boys’ in viewership, Nielsen says the thriller averaged 4.6 million viewers'). 

According to Amazon, the second season had the most-watched global launch of an Amazon original series ever, with the episodes to date having grown the audience from Season 1 by 89%. 

Or you declare WOT successful, if it will not get cancelled?

[king of nowhere]

i would count the show successful if i like it. and it's not cancelled, because if i like it but they leave it unfinished it would suck.

[Merena]

I'm going to count the show as successful if they do a better rendition than they did of Sword of Truth (Legend of the Seeker show).

That one had a lot of promise at the beginning of the first season, but quickly went downhill. I'm hoping that the WoT show doesn't do that.

[Elder_Haman]

I will personally consider it a success if it does not get canceled and manages to get through the entirety of the series. 
 

Amazon is likely looking for numbers akin to, if not better than, “The Boys”. It’s no secret that they want the next “Game of Thrones” so numbers like “Shadow and Bone” will likely be considered disappointing. 

Edited May 23, 2021 by Elder_Haman

[Merena]

@Elder_Haman Since Game of Thrones was a more traditional weekly release-type show, I don't think it would be directly comparable to a show that releases all episodes at the same time like The Boys.

I think much of the pull of The Boys was Karl Urban (e.g. since he is already a popular sci-fi/fantasy actor), but maybe that is just what drew me? ?

Hopefully Rosamond's name recognition can bring in some extra viewers!

[Elder_Haman]

I agree it’s not directly comparable. What Bezos is after is a cultural phenomenon. He wants the accolades, the awards, and a show that captures the zeitgeist the way GoT did. 
 

I think Wheel of Time has that potential. The Boys shifted to a weekly release for its second season. The Expanse also released weekly. I expect WoT will do the same. 

[eva.reves]

'numbers like “Shadow and Bone” will likely be considered disappointing.'

 

Don't worry. Marketing teams always find a spin, that's their job. According to them every show breaks records on every week.

[mistborn82]

I think it's more than likely WOT won't release all at once, especially since it's already been renewed. Also Rosamund is probably worth a draw at first.

[Merena]

12 hours ago, Elder_Haman said:

I expect WoT will do the same

I hope so! I love being able to watch and digest episodes each week - looking forward to the watch parties! 

Edited May 23, 2021 by Merena

[Thrasymachus]

I have a different metric for success.  Wheel of Time has sold over 80 million copies of its books.  The only American fantasy authors to have sold more are Anne Rice's Vampire Chronicles and Stephanie Meyer's Twilight series.  Both of which have had successful blockbuster movies adapted from their franchise.  Rice's books slightly top out WoT still being in the 80 millions, while Meyer's got over 120 million sold. 

 

So I'll consider the TV series a success if it pushes WoT book sales past Meyer to reclaim the top spot.  I'd consider it gravy if it pushed the books past Chronicles of Narnia fame or began to challenge Tolkien.

[Elder_Haman]

3 hours ago, Thrasymachus said:

So I'll consider the TV series a success if it pushes WoT book sales past Meyer to reclaim the top spot. 

That’s good. I like that. 

[DojoToad]

On 5/22/2021 at 3:55 AM, eva.reves said:

Naturally, we will never know the exact numbers, but there are pr materials. (I will not bring it up that the population of the US is 332 million.)

Yes, you will. 
 

Success, as others said, for me is getting through the entire series. Need to see the last battle!!!

[eva.reves]

On 5/23/2021 at 5:55 PM, Thrasymachus said:

So I'll consider the TV series a success if it pushes WoT book sales past Meyer to reclaim the top spot.  I'd consider it gravy if it pushed the books past Chronicles of Narnia fame or began to challenge Tolkien.

 

Comparing Meyer to Jordan is like comparing Patterson to Joyce.

Has Narnia any fame today outside the UK and US? I think these books belong to the past now.

Challenging Tolkien: (I read many posts about the Tv Show being much more complex than the trilogy, well, Tv Shows still look like Tv Shows even in 2021) incomparable because of the trilogy: the numbers became so skewed.

Just a side note: on Amazon, for more than a decade, there was the magic number, 44 million copies sold in the US, and now it's gone. I wonder why they did it, and what the actual number is today. 

[eva.reves]

 

Quote

 

https://screendirectors.eu/eu-filmmakers-call-on-global-streamers-to-commit-to-fair-negotiating-conditions-on-remuneration/

 

EU Filmmakers Call on Global Streamers to Commit to Fair Negotiating Conditions On Remuneration

 

 15 February 2021

 

In order to build healthy creative relationships, European filmmakers and their representative organisations need global streaming platforms to commit to 3 essential principles.

1. Transparency: Provide verified viewership figures to allow for fair negotiations

 

We very much welcome the willingness of global streaming services to engage in collective negotiations to set up remuneration models for worldwide exploitation, as entailed by the 2019 Copyright Directive. In this process, the communication of verified viewership data and statistics is essential for all parties involved to be able to assess the value of the rights and remuneration models being negotiated.

Article 19 of the 2019 Copyright Directive seeks to correct information asymmetry in contracts’ negotiation: without information on their works’ actual performance, authors and their representatives are negotiating blindfolded.

 

 

[wotfan4472]

The Lord Of The Rings is the benchmark for a viewing experience from start to finish.

If the WOT show can do that through the seasons, it will at most equal it as a watch.

Because, then it becomes a re watching product. It will trigger a flood of new readers seeking to get the story the books gave us all.

But, then there will be plenty of fans that will have fun regardless of how it turns out.

I know I will have fun, I am getting more excited the closer it gets.

Edited May 25, 2021 by wotfan4472

[DojoToad]

20 minutes ago, wotfan4472 said:

But, then there will be plenty of fans that will have fun regardless of how it turns out.

I know I will have fun, I am getting more excited the closer it gets.

Define closer.  Last I saw was maybe 2021 or 2022.  Until a date is set, 'closer' doesn't mean much.

 

Six of the eights episodes were done filming before the pandemic shut it down.  So all post-production work can have been completed.  Now they can't get those last two episodes done for release this year?  I know nothing about the business so I'm probably speaking out of turn, just seems like it is dragging.  Or maybe I'm bitter because I had to work through the pandemic (manufacturing).

 

In any case, 'closer' seems to be slipping further away...

[SinisterDeath]

3 minutes ago, DojoToad said:

Define closer.  Last I saw was maybe 2021 or 2022.  Until a date is set, 'closer' doesn't mean much.

 

Six of the eights episodes were done filming before the pandemic shut it down.  So all post-production work can have been completed.  Now they can't get those last two episodes done for release this year?  I know nothing about the business so I'm probably speaking out of turn, just seems like it is dragging.  Or maybe I'm bitter because I had to work through the pandemic (manufacturing).

 

In any case, 'closer' seems to be slipping further away...

A lot of the Movies and TV shows you saw over this last year, were filmed a year or two prior.
As an example, the majority of "Last" season of Masked Singer was filmed prior to Covid. (With some exceptions)

I don't know if you recall the writers strike of 2007-08, but that 4 month hiatus, caused a ripple throughout Hollywood, TV Shows, Movies were put on hiatus, and there was a drought of new content months later.

Daily Late Night shows were the most obviously affected, and they were the only reason the average person even knew it was happening.

Either way, shows like this won't just drop the episodes as soon as they finish. They look to find a good release date. A Time when people are likely to sit down and watch it. Historically, they aim for Fall/Winter, over Spring/Summer, as they expect people are going to be outside and not watching TV during the Summer months.

 

[Elder_Haman]

6 hours ago, DojoToad said:

Define closer.  Last I saw was maybe 2021 or 2022.  Until a date is set, 'closer' doesn't mean much.

It is almost universally understood that release will be in 2021, with most speculation pegging the release for November/December.

[TheTuna450]

The Boys is one of Amazon's biggest shows right now and seems likely to run for at least 5 seasons (if they want to) as a result. I'd be over the moon if WoT did as well as The Boys.

[Fano'Lan Redux]

Success for the show as a commercial endeavor is a different question for me than whether I personally view the Amazon series as a success.  At this point, I expect the show will be a commercial success and the folks within Amazon given credit for driving the project will be recognized as New Big Deals.

 

On a personal level, "successful WoT series?" provokes a few reactions:

 

- the nadir of my WoT fandom includes a substantial period of uncertainty as to whether the book series would conclude. The fact that we've reached a point in time where substantial resources have been invested to bringing the entirety of the books series to life on screen is already a big win

 

- the transition from books 1-3 into the epic anthology that exists today created some internal flaws and inconsistencies. RJ would certainly have changed some things if given the opportunity to re-write, especially the first three.  It's not beyond my imagination to dream on a streaming series that maintains internal consistency better than the books and thoroughly envelopes me while watching. If so, success on a personal level.

 

- folks in my circle that are already book fans are chatting about the show and getting excited. If that excitement extends to folks that had never read the books but enjoyed LotR movies, that's success on a broader level

 

- unmitigated success means folks that had never heard of the books are subscribing to Amazon just to watch and I'm chatting about the Seanchan view of the One Power during the family Christmas party in '23. Culturally impactful status is available.

[Elder_Haman]

5 hours ago, Fano'Lan Redux said:

and I'm chatting about the Seanchan view of the One Power during the family Christmas party

You don't do this already? ?

 

[eva.reves]

On 5/24/2021 at 5:54 PM, DojoToad said:

Yes, you will. 

To be blunt, these numbers are pathetic. Under 2 or 4 million and they talk about gigantic success. But then everything is a gigantic success even when it just got cancelled. Worldwide numbers: when the weakest soap operas from Korea/Turkey/Germany/Italy/Mexico/Brazil can get bigger numbers easily...

The marketing team of The Witcher must be swimming in their sweats right now to fabricate (I mean, they will tell us the exact numbers, not some obscure thing) the proper numbers for S2. (No wonder they fired half of the production team. Yes, their biggest success, sure. Just trying to get the invested money.) 

And turning back to Shadow and Bone for a minute: now there are so desperate articles like this one (themarysue): 'Netflix’s Shadow and Bone Delivers Long Overdue Asian Diversity – The reason why I was drawn in by an adaptation of books I had never heard of at the time was simple: The protagonist, Alina Starkov, would be changed from white to half-Asian.' 
And it looks like the 'Asians' (!) did not tune in to see themselves represented. But, according to the author of the article, Jessie Mei Li is not 'full' (!) 'Asian' (!), just half-Asian (!), so maybe that was the main problem. (She, and the others, cannot act at all, but nobody cares about acting skills anymore. Especially on TV.)
Or maybe they do not like being called as 'Asians', instead of human beings. And it looks like there are zero original books with 'Asian' main characters to adapt, if you want to go on path of racism.

The budget is similar, because the makers of the Tv Show can say anything: x million, y million, z million, we will never know the exact number.

Or the sales numbers. For more than a decade the text next to the covers on Amazon proudly said: the series has sold more than 44 million copies in North America. And now? No numbers. Why? (There is no obligation to present a number, that goes without saying, but they should put out a number.)
 

[imlad]

On 5/25/2021 at 2:49 AM, eva.reves said:

 

Tv Shows still look like Tv Shows even in 2021)

 

Um, what? Sorry, but it seems you haven't been paying attention. Television for the past 20-21 years looks nothing at all like television of the 20th Century, with a handful of exceptions from before 2000. The style of writing, filming, acting and directing are all vastly different for a great chunk of the television that is currently on the market these days, at least when it comes to scripted television. And a lot, but not all, of modern television goes for a more theatrical approach, which separates it even further from the 20th Century style of TV. As to unscripted, well even that is different than most of the 20th Century's fare, since many styles and formats we see today of unscripted content was invented in this century, or at least popularized in it.

 

On 5/25/2021 at 9:34 AM, SinisterDeath said:

Either way, shows like this won't just drop the episodes as soon as they finish. They look to find a good release date. A Time when people are likely to sit down and watch it. Historically, they aim for Fall/Winter, over Spring/Summer, as they expect people are going to be outside and not watching TV during the Summer months.

 

This is the main reason Americans (and Canadians I believe) use the term "season" for a set group of episodes of a television show instead of the UK term "series;" everything started in the Fall Season, and ended in sometime in Spring (in the early days of television, shows would go 26 weeks, or even more!). Then they would air reruns (for the kids out there, that is an already aired episode being played again ??) until the new Fall Season.

 

16 hours ago, eva.reves said:

To be blunt, these numbers are pathetic. Under 2 or 4 million and they talk about gigantic success. But then everything is a gigantic success even when it just got cancelled. Worldwide numbers: when the weakest soap operas from Korea/Turkey/Germany/Italy/Mexico/Brazil can get bigger numbers easily...
 

 

Viewing numbers don't mean nearly as much these days as you think they do. You should read this article (or this one) where they talk about the changed concept of a successful television show in the modern era. Today there are probably a multiple tens, if not a hundred (or maybe even more), times as many TV shows "on the air" (I put it that way cuz I include streaming services like Netflix, Disney+, and Amazon Prime as television) as there were 25 years ago.* Look at how many more cable channels there are today than in 1996. Look at the number of streaming services we have now. And all of them have their own original content, as well as old IP that is being rebroadcast. All of that divvies up the population, which I grant is larger (but not that much larger), even more than we were in '96. There are only so many people to go around for all those shows. And, as that article I linked above discusses, there are other methods of watching that do not get counted in many of the audience share counting systems (like the Nielsen rating system, which has lost a lot of its previous influence).

 

 

 

* Compare the Wikipedia pages for TV shows debuting in 2021 and 1996 and compare the number of shows on each page. That is just shows debuting, not even counting returning television shows. That will give you a solid impression. You can also look at the "1996 in American television" page with the (at time of posting) INCOMPLETE and NOWHERE CLOSE TO FINISHED "2021 in American television" page. And those are just America, note. Not including Canada, the UK, or anywhere else.

Edited May 29, 2021 by imlad

[Borderlander]

If the show never reaches the end of the story, that would be hard to think of as 'successful'... but that is so many years off, it barely merits worrying about consideration at this point.

 

On a personal level, for the first few seasons, I will think of it as being successful if I can watch it without cringing too often. A few changes to the storyline—some big, some small—I can handle. Won't necessarily like every change, but I can handle it.

 

Here's what worries me I keep coming back to: the last season of Game of Thrones. Looked like a million bucks. Great actors across the board. Awesome music. Storylines we had waited years (or decades) for all woven together and brought to climax/culmination. Huge battles. Major reveals. On paper, it sounds like an overwhelming 'success. Only, I was cringing for half of every episode. Why?

 

You can put lipstick on a pig, but it's still a pig. The early seasons of GoT stuck so closely to the books, not just for overall storylines but for literal dialogue—and there is a reason those books are so well-loved. It's because the writing is top-notch. And there's a reason the writing is top-notch it's because George Martin takes his sweet time, and it shows in the final product. The vocabulary is off the charts. The unexpected twists and turns, not only in plot but even within smaller scenes, is masterful... and it's not something that even great writers can necessarily produce quickly. It takes time. Tons of revisions. Lots of time away from a particular scene, letting ideas ruminate, waiting for a spark of inspiration. 

 

Robert Jordan is every bit as good a writer as George Martin. Like Martin, he took his time, and it shows in the final product.

 

So, as Game of Thrones began to stray more from the source material in later seasons, and the writers were called upon to 'invent' or 'fill in' more and more gaps, that, too, showed. In the first season, the 'new' scenes were very good... in my opinion, that is likely because there were so few to write. They could really focus on them, workshop them, and mimic Martin's vision appropriately. By season 8, when the writers for the TV show had to literally invent every single word of dialogue, every storyline, everything, they were basically attempting to recreate what it takes Martin YEARS to do in a tenth of the time. And whether having a whole writer's room devoted to the task makes for a better finished product in the end, the results speak for themselves. Scenes that have million-dollar backdrops and million-dollar CGI effects everywhere you look, but the actual words coming out of the actor's mouths sound like first-year fan-fiction from somewhere who just read the Cliff's Notes for Lord of the Rings.

 

Which brings me back to Wheel of Time. If they stick with the books and only task the writers with 'adapting' what is already on the page, and are not called upon to fabricate new material from whole cloth too often, I think they have a golden ticket. If, however, they convince themselves that major reworks are necessary (and they may well be; that is another issue) and the writers (none of whom, to my knowledge, are best-selling authors of epic Fantasy series; but, rather, jump from show to show like ghost writers, doing their best to mimic the voice of whatever new project they are attached to; which, yes, is a skill in its own right, but a very different skill from that honed by decades of practice by Martin and Jordan) and we are present with a finished product that is, say, 50% Jordan and 50% Writer's Room, things may get a little cringeworthy. 

 

And what is cringeworthy? Telltale signs are dialogue scenes that are cut short abruptly, just when it seems like the characters were about to get to the important part. 'Modern' phraseology and modes/mannerisms of speech creeping in (worst case scenario would be modern swearing.) Over-reliance on exposition. Current political/ideological overtones shoehorned in (some may be warranted as being authentic to the source material; others may not; will have to wait and see.) Cheesy plot devices that clearly show the writers trying to make an abridged plot fit together (like Varys suddenly hopping between continents in a day or two in the latter seasons of GoT.) 

 

In the end, I imagine it will be a bit like watching your kid ride a bike for the first time. The first few minutes will be tense no matter what. But as time goes on, if they seem like they are in control, you begin to relax can just enjoy the experience. But if they keep wobbling and nearly falling over, and you can't stop cringing... well, let's just hope the writer's room decides to coast as much as possible on all the good groundwork Jordan laid out for them and that they do not feel the need to reinvent the entire Wheel.

 

[Guest Wolfbrother31]

On 5/22/2021 at 2:40 PM, Merena said:

I'm going to count the show as successful if they do a better rendition than they did of Sword of Truth (Legend of the Seeker show).

That one had a lot of promise at the beginning of the first season, but quickly went downhill. I'm hoping that the WoT show doesn't do that.

 

Ok. A) I agree with you @Merena that I was hyped for Legend of the Seeker and totally disappointed. But as a fan of the Sword of Truth series - or half of it, before it got really really repetitive and preachy - Legend of the Seeker was never good. By episode 3 it was 100% clear that they weren't even remotely going to portray the books, but were just using them as a launching point. 

 

So, B) I'm in 100% agreement with @Borderlander . By the way, I like the way you write man! You express things well. And that's why I'm already nervous about WoT. With Harry Potter you had Rawlings consulting. It had to be Harry Potter come to life. With LoTR, Jackson was a lifelong fan - his sole aim was to bring Tolkien to life. With WoT, it makes me bigtime nervous that you have main actors who - haven't finished the series yet?!  What?! 

 

So basically, I'll start to really care if the show is "successful" if it's RJ come to life - because then it'll be good and I'll want to see them finished it all - which cannot be done in less than 8 seasons (really we need more like 10). And for that, we're gonna need Game of Thrones like numbers/influence/success. 

 

But if it's what @Borderlander describes so well as "cringeworthy" (see above - he writes well!) Then I actually hope it's widely unsuccessful and dies after two seasons. Cause Legend of the Seeker- like- material. Barrrf. I could not force myself to watch after the 3 episode. Shannara. Cringe. 

 

But, you know what, if it's LoTR quality. Then @Fano'Lan Redux's dream will come true. I'll be debating which Ajah is the best at Christmas. It'll go 8 seasons or more. And I will be so so happy. 

Please. Please. Please. 

Just stick to the books as much as you can! Bring Jordan back to life! 

Edited June 6, 2021 by Wolfbrother31