Worried?

[Zaladane]

Haven't been around much and always been more of a "lurker" and boy this place has changed!  Good stuff.  I was never very active but nice to see with the advent of the show things have really picked up.

 

My question or rather my major concern is this:

 

Anyone worried this will turn out to be an MTV pop style prepubescent piece of... well I won't say it.  To be honest I've stayed away from looking up too much about it but from what little I have seen I'm a little concerned.  

 

The reason for this is my recent watching (or attempt to do so) of the Shannara show that came out a few short years ago.  Which has been..well.. look at the MTV comment above.  I'm trying to go through it and it does has its moments..

 

I do understand younger people may have read the books and kudos to them.  Shows do tend to try capture the "younger" audience sometimes but I'm just approaching this from my perspective of being in my early 40's now and becoming a fuddy duddy and hoping the showrunners don't overdo it in this regard.

 

Ideas?

 

 

 

[Harldin]

1 hour ago, Zaladane said:

Haven't been around much and always been more of a "lurker" and boy this place has changed!  Good stuff.  I was never very active but nice to see with the advent of the show things have really picked up.

 

My question or rather my major concern is this:

 

Anyone worried this will turn out to be an MTV pop style prepubescent piece of... well I won't say it.  To be honest I've stayed away from looking up too much about it but from what little I have seen I'm a little concerned.  

 

The reason for this is my recent watching (or attempt to do so) of the Shannara show that came out a few short years ago.  Which has been..well.. look at the MTV comment above.  I'm trying to go through it and it does has its moments..

 

I do understand younger people may have read the books and kudos to them.  Shows do tend to try capture the "younger" audience sometimes but I'm just approaching this from my perspective of being in my early 40's now and becoming a fuddy duddy and hoping the showrunners don't overdo it in this regard.

 

Ideas?

 

 

 

I am very confident that this will not be a Shannara repeat, i fully expect this to be closer in style to GOT bur without most of the soft porn. There is no reason for younger people not to like this filmed as it should be. Done right this show should have a very wide range of viewership from 10-80. 
Shannara was very poorly done, the Showrunners got it totally wrong, also the budget looks to be a lot bigger.

[Elder_Haman]

Shannara was such a huge disappointment, so I definitely understand the anxiety.

 

But I've been following the development of the show pretty closely. And legitimately every single thing I've seen from the production team thus far seems to indicate that they are not headed in that direction. Amazon really seems invested in creating a very high quality product. They want the critical acclaim GoT received and have invested big money trying to achieve that.

 

If I'm worried about anything, it's that they will try too hard to replicate GoT in the wrong ways - overemphasizing nudity and sex scenes, giving main characters dark motives while underemphasizing the strengths of the novels - horror elements (especially early); political intrigue; the emphasis on dualities. 

 

Which is a long-winded way of saying that if the series bombs, it won't be for the same reasons Shannara did. And it certainly won't be because they didn't spend enough money.

[Thrasymachus]

My biggest worry right now is that they cut it short.  The trend for new streaming series lately has been three or four seasons, and then they cut it off, even if it's popular enough to justify keeping it going.  Netflix is the worst about this, but all of them seem to be doing it to one degree or another.  I worry that if it's not at blockbuster levels of popularity through season 3, we might not get a season 4.  Let alone the 6+ seasons it would take to tell even a highly abridged version of this story.

[dssharp]

I agree with Thrasymachus (as I usually seem to) that a big worry is having enough popularity to get a nice length to the series. Streamers see more benefit in starting new series to drive subscriptions (that are cheaper than long running shows). Only the mega hits seem to persist. Fingers crossed. The Shannara series was rough, I couldn’t make it through the second season. From everything I am seeing this will be much better, but in truth so much has to align to get a mega hit that will have staying power. Again, fingers crossed. 
 

I’m sorry to see that it may have a further delayed release, but understand why that may be necessary. At this point I am so excited I don’t know how it will live up to expectations. I’ll have to TRY tempering them a little. Haha. 

Edited November 19, 2020 by dssharp

[king of nowhere]

i think, after the huge success of game of thrones, producers realized that you can make a big fantasy show and do it right with a big budget and you can reap huge dividends.

 

before that, it was something you made to cater to a niche audience that would watch it regardless, while the larger audience wouldn't be interested in it regardless. so there was little reason to pull the big money

[mistborn82]

Bosch has 6 seasons so far on Amazon so I have hope Amazon won't do that.

[Elder_Haman]

I have to say, the radio silence from the production team is disconcerting. 

[dssharp]

1 hour ago, Elder_Haman said:

I have to say, the radio silence from the production team is disconcerting. 

I agree.  Although it seems like there is a slight chance for a surprise good announcement, because why would they just say NOTHING about bad news...? It seems like they should a often the blow a little by letting us know what to expect...

Edited November 18, 2020 by dssharp

[Elder_Haman]

21 minutes ago, dssharp said:

I agree. It seems like there is a chance for a surprise good announcement, because why would they just say NOTHING about bad news...? Soften the blow a little by letting us know what to expect

 

For sure. I mean, I completely understand that they aren't ready to talk about release dates yet - especially in light of the Covids and whatnot. But at the same time, there's an ocean of difference (at least for the hardcore fans) between "all we have left is some pickups and post-production" and "we've shut down in the middle of shooting and season one is now further off-schedule".

 

I guess I'm just dying to see the finished product and would like to be able to manage my expectations. 

Edited November 18, 2020 by Elder_Haman

[Denver Steve]

Give me Dumais Wells or give me death!!!

[Taishar Hawaii]

On 11/11/2020 at 9:44 PM, Zaladane said:

Haven't been around much and always been more of a "lurker" and boy this place has changed!  Good stuff.  I was never very active but nice to see with the advent of the show things have really picked up.

 

My question or rather my major concern is this:

 

Anyone worried this will turn out to be an MTV pop style prepubescent piece of... well I won't say it.  To be honest I've stayed away from looking up too much about it but from what little I have seen I'm a little concerned.  

 

The reason for this is my recent watching (or attempt to do so) of the Shannara show that came out a few short years ago.  Which has been..well.. look at the MTV comment above.  I'm trying to go through it and it does has its moments..

 

I do understand younger people may have read the books and kudos to them.  Shows do tend to try capture the "younger" audience sometimes but I'm just approaching this from my perspective of being in my early 40's now and becoming a fuddy duddy and hoping the showrunners don't overdo it in this regard.

 

Ideas?

 

 

 

Man I feel you about that insult of a show Shannara.  Big fan of the books, one of the original epic fantasy series for me (along with Dragonlance) that got me hooked on the genre.  It was almost as if the creators never even read the books.  Watched the first episode and never went back.

[Taishar Hawaii]

Like everyone has expressed, my biggest worry is not getting the full story.  Adapting 14 books is a monumental task.  Biggest concern: they try to squeeze in as much as they can, fearing it won't go more than 3-5 seasons, and you get a watered down mess that barely resembles the story we know.

[Elder_Haman]

1 hour ago, Taishar Hawaii said:

Like everyone has expressed, my biggest worry is not getting the full story.  Adapting 14 books is a monumental task.  Biggest concern: they try to squeeze in as much as they can, fearing it won't go more than 3-5 seasons, and you get a watered down mess that barely resembles the story we know.

 

I've said elsewhere, I think you need a minimum of seven seasons to do this show correctly. But I will use this as an excuse to sketch out how I think it could break down:

 

Season One = book one. Starting at the beginning and ending with Fain stealing the horn and dagger. It may be a little bit cliche to end on a cliffhanger. But it's just too easy of an "after credit" type scene. It also sets up the plot motivations for season two.

 

Season Two = book two. The group splits up in Fal Dara with Rand and Perrin headed after the horn and the rest headed to Tar Valon. I think we get a little bit more at the White Tower (introducing Elayne, developing her friendship with Rand and an intro to Andoran politics). It ends in Falme.

 

Season Three = books three and four. Rand wanders off on his own. Moiraine goes after him while Verin takes Mat to Tar Valon to be healed. Nynaeve and Egwene are charged with hunting down the Black Ajah. Rand taking the stone occurs at the mid-point of the season. Rand journeys to the waste. Perrin returns to the Two Rivers. The season ends with the Battle of the Two Rivers.

 

Season Four = books five and six. The season opens with Rand coming out of Rhuidean and defeating Couladin and Siuan being deposed. The Moghedien plot line begins here also. (I think Tanchico is basically cut and the black ajah leads directly to Ebou Dar - allowing for us to meet Tylin) The season ends at Dumai's Wells.

 

Season Five = books seven, eight and nine. Three main plot arcs - Perrin pursues Masema. Mat arrives in Ebou Dar and helps find the Bowl of the Winds. Egwene's rise to the Amyrlin seat. The season ends with Mat kidnapping Tuon and Perrin's rescue of Faile while Egwene is captured.

 

Season Six = books ten, eleven and twelve. The season opens with the Cleansing. Elayne takes the throne. The season ends with the failed meeting between Rand and Tuon and the subsequent attack on the White Tower.

 

Season Seven = books thirteen and fourteen. Opens with Zen rand in the apple orchard and ends with another turning of the wheel!

[Elessar]

3 hours ago, Taishar Hawaii said:

Like everyone has expressed, my biggest worry is not getting the full story.  Adapting 14 books is a monumental task.  Biggest concern: they try to squeeze in as much as they can, fearing it won't go more than 3-5 seasons, and you get a watered down mess that barely resembles the story we know.

 

This is one of my many concerns/worries as well. As previously mentioned I am also genereally concerned that it will not be a faithful adaptation (and by faithful I don't mean with no changes at all, but the right changes, so no major changes with regards to main characters (keep them as in the books, no merging of characters, changes in gender/orientation etc), story-arcs and the main plot, rather removing less important descriptions from the books, less important sub-plots / characters etc).

 

The Wheel of Time is so monumental in detail and intricacy and nuances that it will be an almost impossible task to do it justice on the tv-screen. So this will be a huge challenge for the showrunners (and let's hope they don't give us a watered down or, even worse in my humble opinion, a revisionist take on Robert Jordan's characters and story/canon).

 

As for tv-seasons and the books, I would have ideally preferred 1 book per 10-episode season kinda like Game of Thrones (until the end) but it was seemingly obvious from the start that we would not get 14 tv-seasons. So what do I think we need to do this majestic fantasy saga some justice?

 

Season 1: Book 1 + 1/3 of book 2

Season 2: 2/3 of book 2 + book 3

Season 3: Book 4 (huge encompassing story needs 1 season)

Season 4: Book 5 (huge encompassing story needs 1 season)

Season 5: Book 6 (huge encompassing story needs 1 season)

Season 6: Book 7 + 8

Season 7: Book 9 + 10

Season 8: Book 11 + 12

Season 9: Book 13 + 14

 

That makes 9 seasons and I am concerned this might also be too little to tell the full story completely / proficiently as it deserves, but seeing as many think we might end up with 7-8 seasons in all (if we are lucky) I should probably be happy if we did get 9 seasons of the tv-show. Time will tell.

 

 

[Elder_Haman]

20 minutes ago, Elessar said:

 

This is one of my many concerns/worries as well. As previously mentioned I am also genereally concerned that it will not be a faithful adaptation (and by faithful I don't mean with no changes at all, but the right changes, so no major changes with regards to main characters (keep them as in the books, no merging of characters, changes in gender/orientation etc), story-arcs and the main plot, rather removing less important descriptions from the books, less important sub-plots / characters etc).

 

The Wheel of Time is so monumental in detail and intricacy and nuances that it will be an almost impossible task to do it justice on the tv-screen. So this will be a huge challenge for the showrunners (and let's hope they don't give us a watered down or, even worse in my humble opinion, a revisionist take on Robert Jordan's characters and story/canon).

 

As for tv-seasons and the books, I would have ideally preferred 1 book per 10-episode season kinda like Game of Thrones (until the end) but it was seemingly obvious from the start that we would not get 14 tv-seasons. So what do I think we need to do this majestic fantasy saga some justice?

 

Season 1: Book 1 + 1/3 of book 2

Season 2: 2/3 of book 2 + book 3

Season 3: Book 4 (huge encompassing story needs 1 season)

Season 4: Book 5 (huge encompassing story needs 1 season)

Season 5: Book 6 (huge encompassing story needs 1 season)

Season 6: Book 7 + 8

Season 7: Book 9 + 10

Season 8: Book 11 + 12

Season 9: Book 13 + 14

 

That makes 9 seasons and I am concerned this might also be too little to tell the full story completely / proficiently as it deserves, but seeing as many think we might end up with 7-8 seasons in all (if we are lucky) I should probably be happy if we did get 9 seasons of the tv-show. Time will tell.

 

 

I would be very interested in what their best case scenario looks like. I don’t think it would be one book per season. The middle books are too slow for that to work. 
 

I like your breakdown as well. That would be sort of a best case scenario for me. I doubt it will go much more than 8 seasons though. 

[deathgate]

I'd say in the middle late books like Winter's Heart they could speed up the dreariness of the waiting by just showing montages of the weeks going by and just doing a scene or two from each camp here and there without doing every detail. Visuals can be a big help in moving things along that words struggle with. A lot will depend on ratings. The more popular the more even Amazon will be in no hurry for it to end. If the ratings are middling then a rushed and eventually curtailed product will end with a whimper.

[Elder_Haman]

18 hours ago, deathgate said:

I'd say in the middle late books like Winter's Heart they could speed up the dreariness of the waiting by just showing montages of the weeks going by and just doing a scene or two from each camp here and there without doing every detail. Visuals can be a big help in moving things along that words struggle with. A lot will depend on ratings. The more popular the more even Amazon will be in no hurry for it to end. If the ratings are middling then a rushed and eventually curtailed product will end with a whimper.

 

I really think they can tell most of the same story and that those "slow" books will cut together pretty nicely from a television perspective. It's just a matter of which storylines they will keep, and which they will cut.

 

I think (and I've said elsewhere) you can do away with the Savannah and the Shaido. I'd keep the Morgase story (I like it more each time I read the series). Faile can be kidnapped by Masema, which will still allow for a Perrin rescue plot, but would allow the Seanchan to be excised from that part of things. You can keep Ebou Dar pretty much as is.

 

The tv version would be four main story lines: (1) Rand conquering Illian and battling Sammael and/or other Forsaken (with the failed attack on the Seanchan possibly being a good point to end). (2) Ebou Dar. Mat and Tylin (changed, I think to be less rapey) will be woven in with the search for the Bowl of the Winds. Anchoring this story line in a location instead of a character will allow more flexibility with which characters a particular episode will focus on. (3) Perrin takes on Masema. They can play this as a betrayal. We are meant to believe Masema is an ally, Perrin is to join forces with him only to find that he's now the Prophet. They can play up Perrin's struggles with asserting himself as a leader and his wolfish instincts about people. (4) Salidar. Like Ebou Dar, we can stick with a location and get episodes about Egwene, Siuan, and Logain. Logain's departure for the Black Tower can get moved back in the timeline.

 

 

[Beidomon]

The show runner's initial *woke* comments had me worried. Some of the interesting casting decisions had me more worried. But the show runner's recent comments about how Season 1 isn't so much an adaption of EOTW but trying to fit in elements from all the books (I'm paraphrasing) has me SUPER worried.

 

Don't get me wrong, I'm not one of these uber-fans who will be disappointed if we don't get a page-for-page "faithful adaptation." To the contrary, I disliked many things about WOT that I'd be glad to see cut or changed. Although I enjoyed the series overall, I still have many criticisms, including much of what followed after Book 6, the overall flatness/incompetence of the Foresaken, the one-dimensionality of the good guys, etc.

 

But we also better not go Dark Tower Movie here. It kinda sounds like we're going Dark Tower Movie, right? Don't overthink this, people. The first 6 books were mostly GREAT.

[Elder_Haman]

19 minutes ago, Beidomon said:

The show runner's initial *woke* comments had me worried. Some of the interesting casting decisions had me more worried. But the show runner's recent comments about how Season 1 isn't so much an adaption of EOTW but trying to fit in elements from all the books (I'm paraphrasing) has me SUPER worried.

 

I'm think the way you paraphrased this is sort of misleading. What he said specifically was that they had an eye to adapting the entire series, not just a single book. So he intends to stay away from some of the tropes that Jordan played with in EotW. For example, Moiraine's staff was written as a callout to Gandalf. But it was not an important thing overall to the story, so they cut it rather than remain uber-faithful to the source material.

 

I see this as an unquestioned positive - it means they are looking ahead and planning for the things that come later in the series.

[Thrasymachus]

Like a lot of book fans, I would prefer a highly faithful adaptation that follows the books, plot for plot and beat for beat.  But I have long doubted that a live-action format would be best for that, and think that an American anime style similar to Avatar: The Last Airbender would have been ideal.  Had Red Eagle not been such monumental screwups, we might have already had something like that.  Now, the best chance we have for anything like that happening is if this current live-action adaptation is at least moderately successful.

 

I also think that just because this TV show isn't being made for the book fans, but is instead meant to appeal to a broader audience and is therefore going to be more of a spiritual adaptation inspired by the books rather than being a 1:1 reproduction of them, doesn't mean it's going to be bad.  We just have to have the right expectations going into it.  Like it or not, Red Eagle's dropping the ball from the moment they first got media rights has allowed other franchises to come in and steal the thunder that rightfully ought to have been Wheel of Time's.  So now they're going to have to make some pretty big changes to make it stand out.  Leaked script-readings have already revealed scenes that never happened in the books.  We have to be prepared for stuff like that happening, and not allow it to prejudice us against what might otherwise be a good show.

[Taishar Hawaii]

On 12/4/2020 at 10:33 AM, Thrasymachus said:

Like a lot of book fans, I would prefer a highly faithful adaptation that follows the books, plot for plot and beat for beat.  But I have long doubted that a live-action format would be best for that, and think that an American anime style similar to Avatar: The Last Airbender would have been ideal.  Had Red Eagle not been such monumental screwups, we might have already had something like that.  Now, the best chance we have for anything like that happening is if this current live-action adaptation is at least moderately successful.

 

I also think that just because this TV show isn't being made for the book fans, but is instead meant to appeal to a broader audience and is therefore going to be more of a spiritual adaptation inspired by the books rather than being a 1:1 reproduction of them, doesn't mean it's going to be bad.  We just have to have the right expectations going into it.  Like it or not, Red Eagle's dropping the ball from the moment they first got media rights has allowed other franchises to come in and steal the thunder that rightfully ought to have been Wheel of Time's.  So now they're going to have to make some pretty big changes to make it stand out.  Leaked script-readings have already revealed scenes that never happened in the books.  We have to be prepared for stuff like that happening, and not allow it to prejudice us against what might otherwise be a good show.

Burn me that sounds a lot like what they tried to do with Shannara, and failed. I'm hopeful they'll strike a nice balance of 'spiritual adaptation' and honoring the source material.

[Thrasymachus]

Probably closer to what they tried doing with the Dark Tower.  But while there are examples of failures where show-runners took significant liberties with the adaptation, there's also examples of successes.

 

Before we even have a trailer, let alone are able to actually watch the series, it's going to be easy to find things to be worried about.  Just like it'll be easy to find reasons to dismiss those worries.  But expectations set reality when it comes to aesthetics.  If you worry too much that it'll be like Dark Tower or Shannara, then that's what it'll become for you when you do get to see it.  You'll see what you expect to see, even if other people who lack those expectations don't see it that way.  Best thing to do is wait before you judge.  Maybe they'll try to pull a Shannara Chronicles, and it actually works this time.

[dssharp]

Good points by Thrasymachus. Set expectations. Easier said than done I know, but honestly had it come out years ago I bet it’d be closer to Legend of the Seeker than GOT, and I’d rather it be closer to GOT/LOTR with budgets, production values, etc. 

[Harldin]

2 hours ago, dssharp said:

Good points by Thrasymachus. Set expectations. Easier said than done I know, but honestly had it come out years ago I bet it’d be closer to Legend of the Seeker than GOT, and I’d rather it be closer to GOT/LOTR with budgets, production values, etc. 

All the indications are that it will match GOT/LOTR, known evidence points to a budget of somewhere between $12-15m per episode, reports of crew members who worked on GOT saying that the production is at yet another level.