That One Scene

[Taishar Hawaii]

On 9/18/2019 at 8:16 PM, TexasRE said:

KOD Chpt 20

 

YES SPOILERS

 

Not an epic battle scene but a very emotional one for me.  Dare I say I wept a little. (Just don't tell my wife)

 

When Nynaeve travels to the pub with the three Malkieri Traders and she convinces them to ride to the last battle with Lan.

 

"The Golden Crane flies for Tarmon Gai'don!"

 

Ugh! Yes! Every time

[Borderlander]

I am dying to see Thom in his cloak. When I first read EoTW, working at a local bookstore when I was 16, pulling books of the Fantasy shelf and sneaking reading behind the counter when I should have been dusting shelves or doing inventory, nothing in the first few chapters so completely ensnared me as meeting Thom in his patchwork cloak and seeing the word 'gleeman' for the first time in my life... ☺️

[Taishar Hawaii]

How about the scene in Fal Dara, when Siuan meets Rand for the first time and he presents himself as Lan instructed him. That's a relationship I look forward to seeing portrayed (Lan and Rand).  Especially before, when Siuan and Moiraine realize Verin isn't as oblivious to the world as many believed. I hope they capture the tension just right, with Moiraine and Siuan a hairsbreadth from doing something drastic!

[Elder_Haman]

11 minutes ago, Taishar Hawaii said:

How about the scene in Fal Dara, when Siuan meets Rand for the first time and he presents himself as Lan instructed him. That's a relationship I look forward to seeing portrayed (Lan and Rand).  Especially before, when Siuan and Moiraine realize Verin isn't as oblivious to the world as many believed. I hope they capture the tension just right, with Moiraine and Siuan a hairsbreadth from doing something drastic!

I hope that scene is in the last episode of Season 1. If it's done right, we should all be terrified that Rand's about to suffer the same fate as Logain!

[mistborn82]

I wonder how they'll do the whole Fain thing in Fal Dara because those scenes with Fain chasing Rand are only creepy because we're in Rand's head.

[johnnysd]

Reading this thread I realize I see WoT quite differently than a lot of you:

 

I sort of HATE Dumai Wells and think for many reasons that scene will never work in the TV series.  It may be my least favorite thing in all of the WoT I hope it is cut and completely changed.

 

I kinda hope they completely ditch the Last Battle as written. It has no subtlety and I found it sort of excruciating to read. I actually have no interest in reading any of the Sanderson books again, but have read all of the Jordan books multiple times, and the first few maybe as many as 10 times.

 

I would actually change/cut much of story after book 7 to be honest.

 

The entire sequence at Falme is what I look forward to most. It is so visually epic and made for film.

 

I really want to see the entire Rand/palace scene in Caemlyn but I fear they are cutting it completely.

 

I look forward to the whole Shadar Logoth sequence

 

Nynaeve healing Logain

 

Rand and Aviendha especially the scene where she travels to Seanchan

 

The scenes from the Age of Legends

 

I really hope they retcon Taimendred (as intended!) as it will make the who Black Tower way more interesting.

 

 

 

[Elder_Haman]

8 hours ago, johnnysd said:

I sort of HATE Dumai Wells and think for many reasons that scene will never work in the TV series.  It may be my least favorite thing in all of the WoT I hope it is cut and completely changed.

 

How can you cut Dumai's Wells? Being kidnapped by Elaida and kept in the box is probably the single most crucial part of Rand's character development.

[mistborn82]

@johnnysdI can understand and appreciate why some would hate aspects of Dumais Wells but as Elder said, the box is vital  for everything that comes after.

You may not like the Sanderson but I think some or most of that is due to the fact that WOT went a little of the rails and Brandon had to race to complete everything in three books. Were his books perfect certainly not but he also couldn't go back in time and fix all the issues in RJ's books. TV won't have that problem, they have all books and can tell an even-flowing story, instead of, for example, shoving all of Perrin's development in one book.

[templar7]

On 12/20/2020 at 2:00 AM, johnnysd said:

Reading this thread I realize I see WoT quite differently than a lot of you:

 

I sort of HATE Dumai Wells and think for many reasons that scene will never work in the TV series.  It may be my least favorite thing in all of the WoT I hope it is cut and completely changed.

 

I kinda hope they completely ditch the Last Battle as written. It has no subtlety and I found it sort of excruciating to read. I actually have no interest in reading any of the Sanderson books again, but have read all of the Jordan books multiple times, and the first few maybe as many as 10 times.

 

I would actually change/cut much of story after book 7 to be honest.

 

The entire sequence at Falme is what I look forward to most. It is so visually epic and made for film.

 

I really want to see the entire Rand/palace scene in Caemlyn but I fear they are cutting it completely.

 

I look forward to the whole Shadar Logoth sequence

 

Nynaeve healing Logain

 

Rand and Aviendha especially the scene where she travels to Seanchan

 

The scenes from the Age of Legends

 

I really hope they retcon Taimendred (as intended!) as it will make the who Black Tower way more interesting.

 

 

 

While I agree with a few of your opinions, I must ask you this: Give me 2 examples of why Dumais Wells will never work in the TV series.

[johnnysd]

On 2/9/2021 at 5:42 PM, templar7 said:

While I agree with a few of your opinions, I must ask you this: Give me 2 examples of why Dumais Wells will never work in the TV series.

 

Well people read that scene differently. To me it has always read as repressed men finally asserting their domination over women after years of being repressed shunned gentled and in Rand's case caged.  "kneel or be knelt" and the sheer carnage described and that contextual element of the scene I just don't think work in the view of the gender dynamic that Rafe will want to portray. Maybe they keep it for shock value but Dumai's wells has never set well with me, it just feels super misogynistic to me. I know most don't agree as it seems to be many people's favorite scene. 

[Elder_Haman]

2 minutes ago, johnnysd said:

Well people read that scene differently. To me it has always read as repressed men finally asserting their domination over women after years of being repressed shunned gentled and in Rand's case caged.  "kneel or be knelt" and the sheer carnage described and that contextual element of the scene I just don't think work in the view of the gender dynamic that Rafe will want to portray. Maybe they keep it for shock value but Dumai's wells has never set well with me, it just feels super misogynistic to me. I know most don't agree as it seems to be many people's favorite scene. 

But ... men who can channel were repressed, shunned, gentled and caged. Does it not make sense that those men would react violently when given the opportunity? I'm finding it hard to see it as misogynistic in any but the most surface of ways. It's not men hating women, it's an oppressed group rising up and seizing their power.

[king of nowhere]

17 minutes ago, johnnysd said:

 

Well people read that scene differently. To me it has always read as repressed men finally asserting their domination over women after years of being repressed shunned gentled and in Rand's case caged.  "kneel or be knelt" and the sheer carnage described and that contextual element of the scene I just don't think work in the view of the gender dynamic that Rafe will want to portray. Maybe they keep it for shock value but Dumai's wells has never set well with me, it just feels super misogynistic to me. I know most don't agree as it seems to be many people's favorite scene. 

that seems putting too much undertext on the whole thing. it's just a battle scene. why does everything have to be some kind of political statement?

 

it's a 4 way battle between groups of people struggling to capture or free rand. the group curbstomping everyone else then asserts themselves as the new major power in the land.

 

I even disagree with reding "man who can channel" as an oppressed group: there is no oppressed group, because there is no group. there's no channeling men culture, or identity. there's never been a group of channeling men before in the third age.

Edited February 11, 2021 by king of nowhere

[SinisterDeath]

23 minutes ago, king of nowhere said:

there's never been a group of channeling men before in the third age.

Hate to do the "well actually" but "group" doesn't have to be a shared culture/values in this context.

Males who can channel in Aiel Society are sent to the north to Die fighting shadowspawn.
Shara, Men who can channel are breeding stock before being executed.

Seanchan, Men are executed.
Seafolk, men are drowned.

Westlands, they are gentled/executed/suicided.

 

"Everyone" knows what happens to a male that can channel in those societies. It's not that much different then being the only Gay man in small town America 1830s. There was no "Group", or "Shared culture" but they were definitely prosecuted.

45 minutes ago, johnnysd said:

"kneel or be knelt" and the sheer carnage described and that contextual element of the scene I just don't think work in the view of the gender dynamic that Rafe will want to portray.

While yes you can apply any kind of dynamic you want to a scene, and make it seem one way or the other, I don't believe Rafe's going to make this scene be "Women are evil, Men are good". 
 

There's also something to be said about showing those who don't understand "gender dynamics", "oppression", and "misogyny", and how those in power creating these systemic issues by literally putting the viewers in the shoes of the oppressed so they can relate and feel empathic towards the very same wrongs they are perpetuating against others. (There's a psychological element that people won't feel empathic to the plight of others unless it happens to them, or those close to them.)

'Course, it could go very, very wrong and people could misinterpret it. "Art" is subjective, after all. 

[king of nowhere]

1 hour ago, SinisterDeath said:

Hate to do the "well actually" but "group" doesn't have to be a shared culture/values in this context.

Males who can channel in Aiel Society are sent to the north to Die fighting shadowspawn.
Shara, Men who can channel are breeding stock before being executed.

Seanchan, Men are executed.
Seafolk, men are drowned.

Westlands, they are gentled/executed/suicided.

 

"Everyone" knows what happens to a male that can channel in those societies. It's not that much different then being the only Gay man in small town America 1830s. There was no "Group", or "Shared culture" but they were definitely prosecuted.

 

being the only gay man in a small town america 1830 does not doom you to certain death from taint sickness within a couple years, possibly after killing everyone nearby. male channelers could certainly be shown more compassion for a condition that does not depend on them, but besides that, i frankly have no idea how they could have been treated differently. And i don't think the question has ever been addressed in the whole 14 books, except perhaps in a bit of conversation between pevara and androl where it's mostly avoided.

it's like in a zombie movie when a guy gets bitten. his friends are then going to kill him, but i wouldn't call it oppression.

 

furthermore, being gay is part of one's identity. being black shouldn't really be, skin color should not matter except for needing sunscreen lotion in summer, but it becomes part of an identity when you and your kin are marginalized because of it.

but those are all things that develop with time.

 

I just don't see how being unwittingly able to channel can have a similar impact. for the vast majority of men, at first it is something you reject, because you know what's going to happen. then you die before you really have much time to think about it. you don't even get persecuted, really. Getting persecuted, the slow abuse over time, builds an identity; male channelers are simply killed then and there. knowing from a young age that you must hide or get killed also builds an identity, but a male channeler does not experience even that. a male channeler does not know he is a male channeler, and when he does know, he dies shortly thereafter.

 

shouldn't it be more like being the only terminally ill person in a small town america 1830?

 

there is one point where i agree about power dynamics, and that's aes sedai being snubbed. they have been the most powerful group for 3000 years, and have been using that to bully everyone. most aes sedai were extremely abusive of everyone*. and it's actually good to see them humbled. but it has nothing to do with them being women, or with the ashamen being men, or with the ashamen being purported victims of oppression.

 

* though perhaps they also should be seen as victims of the way they were raised. the white tower training is perfect for creating sociopaths and other unbalanced people

[mistborn82]

Dumais Wells is the Ashaman working to free Rand, some for good, some for the DO and remember Demandred was originally Tiam so he does think he's dominant. Also most of the people who die at Dumais Well are Shaido men who are in the way. Besides Rand was caged and tortured, as far I remember, Min isn't really shown and Rand is going insane, his reaction isn't stable anyway. Most importantly though, there's been 3,000 yrs of female AS dominance and brutality toward men who can channel and then the pendelum swings.

[SinisterDeath]

34 minutes ago, king of nowhere said:

furthermore, being gay is part of one's identity. being black shouldn't really be, skin color should not matter except for needing sunscreen lotion in summer, but it becomes part of an identity when you and your kin are marginalized because of it.

but those are all things that develop with time.

In the context of WoT, being a channeler is part of one's "identity" as well. 

Remember you said

Quote

there is no oppressed group, because there is no group.

The only reason I brought up being the "single" gay man in 1830s small town America, is because it's probably the closest analogue we have. There wasn't really a "group" or shared "culture", but they are definitely prosecuted.

Quote

being the only gay man in a small town america 1830 does not doom you to certain death from taint sickness within a couple years

Of course not, magic isn't real. I was talking about society prosecuting a group of people for simply existing. Being Gay in small town 1830 America may not have meant an instant death sentence, but you aren't exactly going to be telling everyone you know for fear of your own safety. Sound familiar?

 

Quote

 frankly have no idea how they could have been treated differently. And i don't think the question has ever been addressed in the whole 14 books, except perhaps in a bit of conversation between pevara and androl where it's mostly avoided.

Well, Sharan's & Seanchan have a pretty shitty way of dealing with it. One outright murders you, the other forces you into captivity as breeding stock before sacrificing you to a giant worm. (or something like that)

Aiel have probably the most Merciful, if it wasn't for the fact that even that got twisted.

 

What could they have done? Could have exiled them to the Steadings before they got to addicted to the OP.

 

Quote

I just don't see how being unwittingly able to channel can have a similar impact. for the vast majority of men, at first it is something you reject, because you know what's going to happen. then you die before you really have much time to think about it. you don't even get persecuted, really. Getting persecuted, the slow abuse over time, builds an identity; male channelers are simply killed then and there. knowing from a young age that you must hide or get killed also builds an identity, but a male channeler does not experience even that. a male channeler does not know he is a male channeler, and when he does know, he dies shortly thereafter.

Every one knows male channelers are an abhorrent thing of the Shadow that are a threat. So if you find out you are one, all your own hatred towards that group is now reflected inward. You know what happens if you tell anyone. 

Take Damer Flinn as an example. He's entirely too old to be a "wilder", and start channeling uncontrollably and die. Yet, he's had over 60 years of "living" with a power he didn't even know he had.

 

Quote

shouldn't it be more like being the only terminally ill person in a small town america 1830?

Nope. Because Terminally ill weren't lynched for merely existing. They were more likely to be smothered.

 

50 minutes ago, king of nowhere said:

there is one point where i agree about power dynamics, and that's aes sedai being snubbed. they have been the most powerful group for 3000 years

I was talking about flipping real world systemic Power Dynamics issues as a "mirror reflection" upon our own society.
Sometimes the way to make the oppressor understand the oppressed, is to show them what it's like to be the oppressed. This can backfire stupendously, creating a group of oppressors that act like they are the oppressed.

Which is why it's very important to make Dumais wells not about gender. Not about all women in the world oppressing Men. But about Aes Sedai, specifically the Red Ajah, bad/evil ones at that, doing evil shit, to gain power.

[templar7]

On 2/11/2021 at 4:00 PM, SinisterDeath said:

In the context of WoT, being a channeler is part of one's "identity" as well. 

Remember you said

The only reason I brought up being the "single" gay man in 1830s small town America, is because it's probably the closest analogue we have. There wasn't really a "group" or shared "culture", but they are definitely prosecuted.

Of course not, magic isn't real. I was talking about society prosecuting a group of people for simply existing. Being Gay in small town 1830 America may not have meant an instant death sentence, but you aren't exactly going to be telling everyone you know for fear of your own safety. Sound familiar?

 

Well, Sharan's & Seanchan have a pretty shitty way of dealing with it. One outright murders you, the other forces you into captivity as breeding stock before sacrificing you to a giant worm. (or something like that)

Aiel have probably the most Merciful, if it wasn't for the fact that even that got twisted.

 

What could they have done? Could have exiled them to the Steadings before they got to addicted to the OP.

 

 

Every one knows male channelers are an abhorrent thing of the Shadow that are a threat. So if you find out you are one, all your own hatred towards that group is now reflected inward. You know what happens if you tell anyone. 

Take Damer Flinn as an example. He's entirely too old to be a "wilder", and start channeling uncontrollably and die. Yet, he's had over 60 years of "living" with a power he didn't even know he had.

 

Nope. Because Terminally ill weren't lynched for merely existing. They were more likely to be smothered.

 

I was talking about flipping real world systemic Power Dynamics issues as a "mirror reflection" upon our own society.
Sometimes the way to make the oppressor understand the oppressed, is to show them what it's like to be the oppressed. This can backfire stupendously, creating a group of oppressors that act like they are the oppressed.

Which is why it's very important to make Dumais wells not about gender. Not about all women in the world oppressing Men. But about Aes Sedai, specifically the Red Ajah, bad/evil ones at that, doing evil shit, to gain power.

I agree that this is being taken WAY too seriously outside the narrative. Just because Rand is male, and the protagonists of the scene are women doesn't make it an allegory in misogyny. Women in tWoT are predominantly intelligent and powerful characters from beginning to end. I would actually challenge anyone to give me a better example of gender diversity and powerful female characters in a sci fi or fantasy saga ever. And a story written by a man and edited by his wife. Even if it does come across that way.. So what? I for one appreciate stories that accurately reflect the human condition, in all its aspects. warts and all. The last thing I want to see is some sterilized adaptation terrified of hurting someones feelings in an attempt to appease social justice warriors. If the roles were reversed in that chapter it would be seen as an allegory of oppressed women striking back at their evil male overlords and would be applauded.

Its just a story point! A really exciting moment of change in Rands journey. Its the red wedding of twot. Let it go.

Having said that; I do think certain aspects of the overall plot could be tricky. eg. the love triangle will definitely need to be curtailed to some extent. But nitpicking every nuance that rubs someone the wrong way will end in disaster.

[king of nowhere]

16 hours ago, templar7 said:

Having said that; I do think certain aspects of the overall plot could be tricky. eg. the love triangle will definitely need to be curtailed to some extent. But nitpicking every nuance that rubs someone the wrong way will end in disaster.

well, those relationship never felt particularly genuine, except perhaps with min, but that's mostly RJ not being good at writing relationship.

but to make it acceptable, i think it would be sufficient to expand Myrelle's role and visibility. So now you'd have a poliamorous relationship of a guy with three women and another one of a woman with three guys, nobody could say there is no equality

[Fano'Lan Redux]

On 12/10/2020 at 2:55 PM, Taishar Hawaii said:

How about the scene in Fal Dara, when Siuan meets Rand for the first time and he presents himself as Lan instructed him. That's a relationship I look forward to seeing portrayed (Lan and Rand).  Especially before, when Siuan and Moiraine realize Verin isn't as oblivious to the world as many believed. I hope they capture the tension just right, with Moiraine and Siuan a hairsbreadth from doing something drastic!

 

Cat Crosses the Courtyard? Pretty sure that's the name of the pose : )  THE scene of this amazing series upon which I most often draw irl. Straight spine, loose limbs; apparently at ease but poised to move in any direction.  Think of me what you will, but it has served as en effective mental cue in various circumstances.

 

The woman cast as Siuan blew me away in Flack ... If the pair cast as Rand/Egwene can hold their own with her, I think we are in for an epic ride.

[Fano'Lan Redux]

Dumai's has always been an over-rated scene to me and it's funny how everyone just wants to overlook the fact that it's the coming out party for the new Dreadlords, i.e. the dark power wielding minions of the Dark One, the manifestation of evil.

 

But "hooray" 'cause reasons especially that the head Dreadlord dominates the loathed women at the end and says the completely demeaning line that's a perfect line for the head Dreadlord to say to vagina bearing meanies who, through no fault of their own, have been the only gender able to wield the Power while maintaining sanity. So, hooray for the wielders-of-evil breaking free of their "repression" and putting those women in their collective place? Not something that impressed me when published and even less so these many years later

 

 

[Elder_Haman]

4 hours ago, Fano'Lan Redux said:

Dumai's has always been an over-rated scene to me and it's funny how everyone just wants to overlook the fact that it's the coming out party for the new Dreadlords, i.e. the dark power wielding minions of the Dark One, the manifestation of evil.

 

But "hooray" 'cause reasons especially that the head Dreadlord dominates the loathed women at the end and says the completely demeaning line that's a perfect line for the head Dreadlord to say to vagina bearing meanies who, through no fault of their own, have been the only gender able to wield the Power while maintaining sanity. So, hooray for the wielders-of-evil breaking free of their "repression" and putting those women in their collective place? Not something that impressed me when published and even less so these many years later

Well, sure. But it's also the coming out party for non-Dreadlord power wielding men. And the point in the story where Perrin essentially saves the world by helping to free Rand from the box. And where prophecy is fulfilled. And where Rand's impressively written dark arc begins. Doesn't it seem a little reductive to boil all that down to gender dynamics?

 

I love the scene because it is beautifully written. It is a masterful climax to Rand's first act. It brings about the fulfilling of prophecy in a completely unexpected way. It introduces the asha'man in a compelling, yet terrifying way. To me it has exactly zero things to do with which people have which sex bits.

[mistborn82]

It's also the point at which Perrin irrevocably chooses the world over selfishness or rather has it chosen. It'll probably change in the show and it also showcases saidin, both light and dark, also Demandred as I assume he'll be put back to Taimandred.

[Fano'Lan Redux]

On 2/26/2021 at 10:03 AM, Elder_Haman said:

Well, sure. But it's also the coming out party for non-Dreadlord power wielding men. And the point in the story where Perrin essentially saves the world by helping to free Rand from the box. And where prophecy is fulfilled. And where Rand's impressively written dark arc begins. Doesn't it seem a little reductive to boil all that down to gender dynamics?

 

I love the scene because it is beautifully written. It is a masterful climax to Rand's first act. It brings about the fulfilling of prophecy in a completely unexpected way. It introduces the asha'man in a compelling, yet terrifying way. To me it has exactly zero things to do with which people have which sex bits.

 

Would that this depth of analysis proved the norm. 9/10 = it's the best b/c "Kneel ...." Thank you

 

[Elder_Haman]

On 2/28/2021 at 11:12 AM, Fano'Lan Redux said:

 

Would that this depth of analysis proved the norm. 9/10 = it's the best b/c "Kneel ...." Thank you

 

Thanks! 

 

[Saine]

Great question.  I want the Throne room scene with Queen Morgase.  When they all tense....