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DRAGONMOUNT

A WHEEL OF TIME COMMUNITY
Alexantr8

The series is almost perfect, except for these small things [SPOLIERS: ALL]

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I am a first time poster and I would first like to preface this by stating that I love the wheel of time and that it is one of my favorite book series. I have read the series multiple times and think it is amazing. The following is just a list of the small things that I personally dislike (only slightly) about the series and some small changes that I would have liked to have seen in the last book that I believe would have made the series perfect. Most of the points below are probably pretty common among many fans of the series. Some of my points revolve around Brandon Sanderson but I do not actually put much blame on him. I believe he is a great author and he did an amazing job given the situation he was put in (probably better than any other author besides Robert Jordan himself). Plus, I do not know what was in Robert Jordan’s notes concerning the final book(s), so Sanderson cannot be blamed for too much. Anyways, on to the list.

 

Small dislikes:

 

  • The women are stupid/annoying (mainly Egwene and Elayne). They always think they are right and that they are the best. Nynaeve is like this in the first half of the series but, she is so powerful that it makes up for it. Plus, Nynaeve eventually grows out of it and becomes cool. Elayne has some growth (not enough). But Egwene stays the same the whole series, always thinking she is right. She opposes Rand (the dragon fucking reborn) even up until, and into, the last battle. She is the worst. And I realize that this is one of the themes of the story (with women being superior and men being mistrusted since the breaking) and that Robert Jordan was doing this on purpose, but  just dial back on it and don’t beat the reader over the head with it.

 

  • Rand should have struggled a bit more against the forsaken in the first few books. He just plows through forsaken without really knowing what he is doing. I think the forsaken should have been made to be more dangerous and powerful. Have Rand lose to them in battles and have to retreat near the start of the series. I know this is another theme that Jordan was doing (that the forsaken were selfish and they would lose because they couldn’t work together), but I still feel like a single forsaken should have been able to match Rand at the start.

 

  • The SLOG or Plot Lines of Doom (Perrin rescuing Faile from the Shaido and Elayne’s fight for the throne). These plot lines start at the end of book 8 and continue until book 11. Some very important, and cool, stuff happens in these books, but these subplots just drag on and books 9 and 10 could, and should, have been condensed. 

 

  • The pacing of the series in general could have been improved. Less braid tugging, sniffing, dress brushing, and arm crossing under breasts. Less over description of clothes, rooms, curtains, and scenery. And less describing how the one power works in every book (have reminders until like book 5, after that, the reader should know how the magic works). I’m not saying to take these things out entirely, just to dial back on them. It would have made the pacing of the books a bit better.

 

  • Nynaeve being downgraded. At the start of the series she is the strongest women channeler anyone has seen in forever and the only ones stronger than her are a couple of the forsaken. She is also extremely talented at healing (better than any Aes Sedai alive). Then, part way through the series, all these other extremely powerful channelers are found (Seanchan, sea folk, kin) and suddenly Nynaeve isn’t that impressively strong anymore. Not only that, but some Aes Sedai take Nynaeve’s healing and improve on it. And another women (from the kin) is discovered to have an even better form of healing. I can understand there being a few women that are stronger than Nynaeve (she’s not in the top rank, so there is bound to be a few stronger), I can live with that. But, to take away her talent for healing as well? Once you do that, what does that make Nynaeve? Just an above average channeler. This does not diminish Nynaeve to me as the reader. She is still my favorite female character. But, as the reader, I know she did these amazing things that everyone thought was impossible (curing stilling/gentling, curing madness, and going toe to toe with forsaken). But, what I’m trying to get at is, I wish other characters in the books had of acknowledged Nynaeve being awesome. But when she does these things, the other characters just brush her off like it’s no big deal and decide they can do it better.

 

  • Brandon Sanderson’s Mat. Before Robert Jordan died, it seemed like Mat was finally starting to mature and come to terms with his destiny. He was still awesome and funny, but starting to grow up. Once Brandon Sanderson took over, he reverted Mat back into an immature child (eg. illiterate letter to Elayne, among other things). Brandon got better at writing Mat by the last book, but we never fully got the old Mat back. Also, Mat still never fully accepted being ta’veren and never came to terms with (and accepted) one of his best friends being able to channel. Even at their last meeting, Mat still kind of feared Rand.

 

  • Aviendha also wasn’t written very well by Brandon Sanderson.

 

  • Brandon Sanderson’s different plot line times not syncing (Eg. Perrin’s timeline lags behinds Rand’s in book 13, which causes Tam to appear to be in both Perrin’s and Rand’s plot lines at the same time when they are very far distances from each other). I realize this is due to having to split the last book into three and wanting to have big plot points in both books 12 (Rand/Egwene) and 13 (Perrin/Mat). If Brandon Sanderson didn’t split the plots the way he did, book 12 would have been kind of boring with all build up and no climax and then book 13 would have been jammed with all the action. But, honestly, I think I would have preferred if it had been done that way, to maintain continuity.

 

Possible improvements to the last book:

 

 

  • The obvious wish for all fans would be Robert Jordan not dying. It would have been nice to see how he would have gotten to the ending. Unfortunately, that is not how things turned out.

 

*******REMEBER: I do not know what was in the notes that Robert Jordan left*******

 

 

  • I don’t like how the field of Merrilor was written. It just didn’t seem like something the characters would have done. Rand’s threat to not fight the last battle was empty and Egwene refusing to listen to Rand’s reasoning for breaking the seals seems immature. I am fine with Rand being vague when he first told Egwene his plan while in the tower. He wanted Egwene to oppose him at first so she would bring the rest of the worlds leaders to Merrilor for him. And I also realize there had to be some conflict between Rand and Egwene so that Moiraine could swoop in and make it all right (I think this was part of Jordan’s instructions). But I think the whole meeting at the field of Merrilor could have played out differently to make it more believable.

 

  • There should have been some final get togethers between the main characters before the last battle. Eg. all the Emond fielders (plus Moriraine, Lan, Thom, Min, Elayne, Aviendha, and, I guess, Faile). Also, Moiraine/Lan and Moiraine/Siuan should have had some on screen meetings. At the very least, Rand, Mat, and Perrin should have had one last pipe and drink the night before the last battle. The three ta’veren had not all talked together since tGH (book 2) and had not all been in the same place since tSR (book 4). I know Sanderson has stated that he wanted to do something like this but he couldn’t get it to work chronologically, but I still really wish it had of happened.

 

  • Not really needed but, it would have been cool to have more full power Rand fighting whole armies and/or linked dreadlords before he went to fight Moridin and the Dark One. We got to see one good one (Maradon) but after that, they were either glossed over or Rand was attacked/overwhelmed right away. It also would have been cool to see him fight some more forsaken. We saw him take them on in earlier books but now that he is zen Rand, it would have been cool to see him fight other powerful channelers who also have knowledge from the age of legends.

 

  • Nynaeve should have had channeling fights during the last battle. I know her role was to link with Rand, but it probably could have been fit in somewhere for her to fight some dreadlords/forsaken or something before going to Shayol Ghul with Rand.

 

  • Moiraine should have done a bit more during the last battle. I know her main role was to get Rand and Egwene to work together and also to link with Rand during the battle. But I think it would have been cool to see Moiraine fight during the last battle (possibly Lanfear again).

 

  • More background on Demandred and how he became Beo the Wyld (fulfilled shara prophecies). Demandred’s part felt rushed and should have been more developed. I liked how it was a surprise and he just showed up with a whole army out of no where but, after the surprise, it should have been explained a bit more. River of souls helps a bit but even that is still lacking the detail that I’m looking for.

 

  • Should have had less Demandred shouting for Lews Therin and yelling how much he hates him (that didn’t fit my image of Demandred). I feel like Demandred would have been smart enough to know that Rand would be going to Shayol Ghul. Instead of being obsessed with killing Rand (and making a scene about it), Demandred should have just been content with being the shadows general and know that Rand was to be killed by Moridin/the Dark One.

 

  • Would have liked to see Demandred realize that he had been out maneuvered by Mat before being killed by Lan.

 

  • Perrin not sleeping through half the last battle.

 

  • Logain should have had a bigger role to fulfill his “glory” viewing. I think Logain should have been the one to kill Taim. This would have been more symbolic of Logain taking the Black Tower back. Egwene could have died killing someone else (possibly Alviarin, head of the black Ajah).

 

  • Rand and Moridin should have had a more epic fight during the last battle. It should have had lots of blade master sword fighting mixed with intense channeling.

 

  • Fain should have had a bigger part in the last books and last battle. Mat and him should have had a better, more dramatic, fight. It might have also been cool to have a piece of Fain’s evil (possibly the dagger) survive. This could have been a bit of a cliffhanger that evil still exists in the world.

 

  • Bela should have survived and been the horse that Rand rode away on. I know Harriet said it wouldn’t be fair to have Bela live, but I feel like it’s a bigger cop out to have so many main characters live. She’s just a horse, it’s not a big deal if she lives.

 

  • Some more people should’ve died. Maybe Faile or even Nynaeve, Mat, Perrin, or Lan. It’s kind of hard to kill off the main main characters though (Rand, Mat, and Perrin). But more important people should have died, not just Egwene. I think it would have been appropriate to have Lan and Perrin die. Lan would die after “sheathing the sword” during his fight with Demandred (this might have distracted Nynaeve while she was linked with Rand but she could have fought through it. This probably would have been more exciting to read about than just seeing her try and heal Alanna anyways). Perrin could have died while protecting Rand from Slayer/Lanfear (possible Lanfear kills him when he tries to kill her and this distracts Lanfear enough for Moiraine to kill her). This would have been a more satisfying fulfillment of the shadows fallen blacksmith prophecy (instead of it being Hopper the prophecy was talking about). Nynaeve and Faile could have been revealed to be pregnant to carry on Lan and Perrin’s line.

 

  • Perrin not having to rescue Faile (for a third time).

 

  • It should have been Moiraine, not Cadsuane, that witnessed Rand leaving at the end. This would have been more symbolic because Moiraine was the one who found Rand in the beginning.

 

  • An added bonus would have been an epilogue that was like 1 to 5 years later. The epilogue that we got could have been the last chapter and the new epilogue would be some time later. The ending is fine the way it is (it leaves the reader questioning and leaves things up to interpretation, which I’m sure is what Robert Jordan wanted), but to see how things turned out, and where everyone is, would have been nice. Basically want to know: How Mat is doing with the Seanchan and how the Seanchan have integrated into the world (did Tuon’s meeting with Hawkwing change her)? How Perrin is doing with the two rivers? How the white tower is working together with the Aiel, Seafolk, and Kin? How is the Black Tower is doing? Are the white and black towers starting to work together? Are Nynaeve and Lan refounding Malkier? How Elayne is doing with Andor/Cairhien/children? Aviendha pregnant? What is Min up to, still doomseer? Then maybe just show Rand living happily on a farm in the country being visited by his three women. Possibly getting on a ship with the three (fulfilling Nikola’s viewing and wiseones dream). It does not need to explain the pipe, Nakomi, or the body swapping (I know the body swapping has now been confirmed by Sanderson).
Edited by Alexantr8

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I like idea of an epilgue 5 years later. What would you think if it went something like this?

 

It begins by explaining that early on in his travels Rand decided to see whats become of the Ways. Unfortunately it slipped Rand's mind that The Black Wind has been known to wait for him near Waygates, learned to exit the Ways, and might have survived after the Last Battle.

 

Unfortunately after opening up one for a jaunt he was taken by surprise and became the Black Wind's very first victim as it began to spread across the world. 

 

As Rand was still the Dragon, and the Dragon is the Land, the Land began to sour and darken and grow barren.

 

Meanwhile as the darkwind spread and fed on so much food, it grew. Oh how it grew, and strange fell twisted beasts and foul blights and vermin began to emerge from it.

 

But worse, oh so much worse, just as there was a bit of the Black Wind left in Fain, there was a bit of Fain left in the Wind, and the Wind began to collect an army of those with taken souls and send them forth to spread the hate plague of Aridhol and as the wind grew the mind of Mordeth began to awaken.

 

And so our epilogue shows our heroes struggling to survive in a hunger filled world of frequent drought(the bowl of wind helps, but not enough and as Fain grows stronger it gets harder to accomplish any good through it) filled with dangerous fiends twisted by the madness of Shadar Logoth, mindless hate plague spreaders wander the land and corrupting all they touch, and army of undead thralls led by the Wind, and the Wind itself scouring villages and entire cities clean of life as it feeds and grows. Oh, and of course, all the nasty diseases beasts and creepy crawlies.

 

And while perhaps a concerted effort of song and chanelling might have beaten the terror back if undertaken early, by the time it was discovered what was happening the Mordeth tainted had already begun too many wars to allow that kind of organization. No force ever mounted at once was enough, and at this point not even a force as large as those first efforts could be fielded even if everyone worked together.

 

As for Blackwind Fain? Will it ever become what Fain sought to be in AMoL? That's just the question the epilogue leaves us on after explaining where all of our heroes find themselves in the current world.

 

How would that be for an epilogue? Yay or Nay?

Edited by Zorlon

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Fantastic epilogue, Zorlon, I like it very much!

 

As much as I like the WOT, as much I have issues with the fact that the good guys always win, achieve their plans (cleaning Saidin, find & use Eye of the World / Bowl of Winds, etc.), never die, defeat the villains etc...  to an extend that I thought about founding a virtual support group for literalily disadvantaged forsaken… ( I always suspected that the forsaken were forced by the author to act less competent than they really could have, so that the good guys were able to win (sounds crazy, I know, but actually I kind of liked this club of lost people a lot)).

 

This version of an epilogue would have reconciled me a bit with this particular WOT issue, especially imaging how the Dark One must amuse himself about this development in his renovated prison. 

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The good guys don’t always win. The good guys see many failures. Besides think of every story backwards, the story is always told by the survivors, everyone else can die. 

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People can say what they will about RJ's verbosity, BS is still the series' greatest weakness.

 

Sanderson has two major failures:

 

1. Trying to tie everything up in AMOL only

2. Mischaracterizing Mat

 

Although books 12 to 14 were supposed to wrap up all the plot lines, BS was still opening new plot hooks in books 12 and 13. The Slayer arc went on too long, and Perrin was wasted in AMOL as a result. The Black Tower arc was also unnecessary. Mat should have finished rescuing Moiraine in book 12, and the final two books should have been devoted exclusively to the Last Battle. This would have given us a much more believable ending.

 

The mischaracterization of Mat is just too difficult to overlook. Mat has always been a pivotal character in the series, and to have him mischaracterized is to excise a part of the series' soul.

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My biggest thing that I didn't like about the books is that every single couple lived or died together. If one died they both died, if one survived they both survived.  That kind of stunk because it's not realistic  on top of that I was robbed the joy of finally having Faile die. I hated her from the first moment she appeared in the series and spent the whole series hoping for her (hopefully extremely painful) death.  I was so hopeful after she was captured by the rouge Aiel.  But sadly no. Then during the Last Battle it looked promising too.  But once again I was robbed of it because Perrin lived (which is good that he did).  So we never got to see someone from a couple grieve the death of their partner. Well except Egwene but she died epicly soon after. 

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On 9/19/2019 at 3:43 PM, Kalle alTear said:

My biggest thing that I didn't like about the books is that every single couple lived or died together. If one died they both died, if one survived they both survived.  That kind of stunk because it's not realistic  on top of that I was robbed the joy of finally having Faile die. I hated her from the first moment she appeared in the series and spent the whole series hoping for her (hopefully extremely painful) death.  I was so hopeful after she was captured by the rouge Aiel.  But sadly no. Then during the Last Battle it looked promising too.  But once again I was robbed of it because Perrin lived (which is good that he did).  So we never got to see someone from a couple grieve the death of their partner. Well except Egwene but she died epicly soon after. 

 

That is just a result of Sanderson trying to tie up all the loose ends.

- Siuan and Gareth dies: fulfills Min's vision

- Tenobia and Bashere dies: allows Perrin to become King of Saldaea

- Gawyn and Egwene's death: ties up Egwene's arc, and likely by popular demand

 

If Lan had died, that would probably have warranted a whole chapter on Nynaeve grieving and dealing with it.

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My biggest problem/want from the ending of the series was to be a part of the discussion between Hawkwing and Tuon. I wanted to know what they were talking about, how it was going to affect the future of the Aiel, and what Hawkwijt would say when he found out the leashed ones (damani I think it’s spelled but I didn’t want to confuse with the country) were actually girls who would be able to learn to channel. It would have been a great way to get a better understanding of the seachan culture and how Tuon might be able to get ahead of this shattering revelation. Could she have worked with the white tower and begin to bring about an age of legends? Or was the future Avienda saw the only possibility? 

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I disagree with your comment about the female characters. Often they are more mature, and right, when it comes to the events in the books, than the boys are. The women don’t need to grow as much as the boys. Nynaeve was the entire village’s wisdom. Egwene had been in training for a while and had the example of her father and mother as both mayor and inn keeper. She has been way more qualified since the beginning.

Also, on your point about Egwene opposing Rand: he was the most powerful, politically, economically, militarily, and magically, man in the world. And he was insane. Thank the Light the world had someone like Egwene who Could oppose him, and with such empathy! If she hadn’t been there, to balance out Rand’s “male” power in Jordan’s gendered universe, then Rand might have destroyed what he was trying to protect. And, Egwene doesn’t know about Rand’s revelation for the last two books, so from her POV her opposition makes the most sense. 

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Kind of how I feel about the series. It really took a dive around book 6. It is a story about the Dragon Reborn without much of the Dragon Reborn after that point. The ending is less then ideal but it is an ending. I remember when RJ died and I thought we are stuck with no ending. BS did an OK job but his books have some questionable things, however they are typical of his writing style. The ending is a bit meh if we are honest, I really dislike the whole body swap that Rand did, mirroring the bad guys, which effectively made him not the Dragon Reborn.

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On 8/5/2019 at 5:59 PM, Alexantr8 said:
  • Nynaeve being downgraded. At the start of the series she is the strongest women channeler anyone has seen in forever and the only ones stronger than her are a couple of the forsaken. She is also extremely talented at healing (better than any Aes Sedai alive). Then, part way through the series, all these other extremely powerful channelers are found (Seanchan, sea folk, kin) and suddenly Nynaeve isn’t that impressively strong anymore. Not only that, but some Aes Sedai take Nynaeve’s healing and improve on it. And another women (from the kin) is discovered to have an even better form of healing. I can understand there being a few women that are stronger than Nynaeve (she’s not in the top rank, so there is bound to be a few stronger), I can live with that. But, to take away her talent for healing as well? Once you do that, what does that make Nynaeve? Just an above average channeler.

 

Hiya,

 

Here is my 1 quibble w/ this quote...I understand where you think Nyneave was downgraded, however this is 1 or 2 tiny details you missed w/ Nyneave...

 

1. Nyneave SOLVED Curing Madness in Men! Nobody had been able to get rid of what was affecting the men who could Channel & Nyneave CURED the Taint affecting Asha'man.

 

2. NYNEAVE CURED STILLING/GENTLING!  NOBODY thought that this was possible but Nyneave Did It!  Restoring Logain to his former Strength & giving back the ability (albeit in a lower capacity) to Leane & Suian.  Which led me to believe Women can Cure Men of Gentling & Men can Cure Women of Stilling to be back at their former strength.

 

That is something that NOBODY can take away as Her achievement.

 

Also Welcome to the Fandom 🙂

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Only the Aes Sedai put any sway in someone because of their strength in the power.  How was anything taken away from her talent with healing?  She discovered things no Yellow thought was possible.  

 

RJ confirmed to regain your full strength the person who repairs you must be of the opposite sex.   

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On 8/5/2019 at 7:59 PM, Alexantr8 said:

Would have liked to see Demandred realize that he had been out maneuvered by Mat before being killed by Lan.

 

Yes! My biggest sticking point with the ending. The entire chapter of The Last Battle CONSTANTLY beat you over the head with this being a battle of wits between Mat and Demandred.. how Mat was waiting for that key moment, how Demandred couldn't believe he had found a worthy foe.. etc.. And to then just have it be Lan walks up and pops him in the neck  no big dealio... VERY anti-climatic. I liked the scene itself, but yes it should have come AFTER Demandred realized he'd lost to Mat. Maybe realizing he'd been out done he started wigging out and just bale firing everywhere and then THAT is when Lan want after him.

 

Also, having Lan perform the fatal sheathing the sword maneuver, only to survive anyway, was very anti-climatic.

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I would like to know why Mat wasn't at Rand's funeral.  Always seemed like an oversight to me.  

 

I always thought Rand somehow brought Lan back to life.

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On 8/5/2019 at 5:59 PM, Alexantr8 said:

It should have been Moiraine, not Cadsuane, that witnessed Rand leaving at the end. This would have been more symbolic because Moiraine was the one who found Rand in the beginning.

That would have been awesome

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On 9/24/2019 at 2:04 AM, solarz said:

 

That is just a result of Sanderson trying to tie up all the loose ends.

- Siuan and Gareth dies: fulfills Min's vision

- Tenobia and Bashere dies: allows Perrin to become King of Saldaea

- Gawyn and Egwene's death: ties up Egwene's arc, and likely by popular demand

 

If Lan had died, that would probably have warranted a whole chapter on Nynaeve grieving and dealing with it.

Perrin would not be King of Saldaea, Faile would be Queen, Perrin would be Prince Consort only.

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Pretty sure Saldaea has a joint monarchy, similar to Malkier's.  When the royal couple are married, they are King and Queen.  Just like Nynaeve is now Queen of Malkier (alongside Lan as King), Perrin is King of Saldaea alongside Zarine.

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3 hours ago, Thrasymachus said:

Pretty sure Saldaea has a joint monarchy, similar to Malkier's.  When the royal couple are married, they are King and Queen.  Just like Nynaeve is now Queen of Malkier (alongside Lan as King), Perrin is King of Saldaea alongside Zarine.

Not according to Wheel of Time Wiki its not, it has Faile as Queen, traditionally in Monarchies the wife of the King is still called the Queen but is not regarded as a a co-ruler, the husband of a ruling Queen is called a Prince Consort and is not regarded as a co-ruler. Perrin will probably take over from Davram Bashere as Marshall General of Saldaea but.is still one step below the Queen. 

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The Wheel of Time wiki doesn't say one way or the other, just that Faile is now Queen.  Brandon was asked the question about Nynaeve being Queen of Malkier, and in the question, Saldaea's being a joint monarchy and Perrin being King alongside Faile being Queen was referenced, and Brandon did not correct that assumption, in spite of it's prominence in the question and having ample opportunity, instead, joking about Nynaeve not knowing what she's getting herself into with Lan.  Lan mentions that joint monarchies are a Borderlands custom to Nynaeve, and we only know of Kandor being the exception to that.

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Perhaps the discrepancy falls onto whether or not Perrin & Faile found a new Manatheran in the Two Rivers?

It's been awhile, I don't believe Perrin committed to not doing that, regardless how many times Elayne stamped her feet.

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Posted (edited)
On 5/21/2020 at 6:20 AM, Thrasymachus said:

 

On 5/21/2020 at 6:20 AM, Thrasymachus said:

The Wheel of Time wiki doesn't say one way or the other, just that Faile is now Queen.  Brandon was asked the question about Nynaeve being Queen of Malkier, and in the question, Saldaea's being a joint monarchy and Perrin being King alongside Faile being Queen was referenced, and Brandon did not correct that assumption, in spite of it's prominence in the question and having ample opportunity, instead, joking about Nynaeve not knowing what she's getting herself into with Lan.  Lan mentions that joint monarchies are a Borderlands custom to Nynaeve, and we only know of Kandor being the exception to that.

Unfortunately the only person who could definitively answer this question died in 2007, so i am just going to leave it at that. 

Edited by Harldin

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Seems like to me in the borderlands that one monarch does the ruling, you never hear about the king and queen of this nation.  Seems like it's just the king or queen.  So my guess is one rules and the other has leadership duties.

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