Ilyena, is she reborn or not?

[mb]

This thread is to determine/speculate whether Ilyena is reborn or not.

 

If you think she is reborn, you may tell whom you think is her reborn.

[Shadows_Edge]

I voted likely not because insofar as I remember there is nothing to point towards this though it has been quite some time since I read them and only just started my 1st re-read so i could be forgetting something but yea Rand has own versions of Ilyena with Elayne Avienda and moreso than the others Min I just dont see any indication of this having happened.

 

Feel free to correct me if i've forgotten something.

[TheBeerPatriot]

I say yes, as Elayne Trakand.  The hair alone for Ilyena/Elayne is strikingly similar.  While that doesn't conclusively prove it 100%, I think that Elayne is the likeliest bet.

[rubbernilly]

I say no.

 

A lot of people are going to say Elayne, but...

 

If we say that Rand's love for Min, Elayne, and Aviendha is roughly equivalent, and we use Gaidal/Birgitte as a guide, then I have to think that either all 3 are tied to Rand's soul or none of them are.

 

If Ilyena is reborn as someone in Rand's life... if she is important enough to *be* reborn... then she should be important enough to be exclusive in Rand's life.

 

We know that Ilyena did not become split into 3 people, so if Ilyena *is* Elayne, then who *were* Min and Aviendha?

 

So, no. I'm not buying her being reborn.

[CTM]

She is Taim.

[MikeRiley]

She could be, but we'll never know because Ilyena's role in this series ended 3000 years ago.

[Bela_theDo]

i would say likely not because she is not a hero bounded to Wheel of Time like Birgitte. We dont know anything about her inspite of being LTT's lover. And Elayne/Ilyena thing is likely to be a red herring to me...but who knows? my vote is for not yet enough info

[Bridge]

From my point of view, Rand love Elayne as much as Min or Aviendha (he told as much) and if one of them would be Ilyena, his soul mate, that have been unlikely so. P.S. Sorry for my grammar!

[Mr Ares]

She has been reborn at some point, and will be in the future. Whether she is currently, or if she is between lives is a point we have no information on. There is nothing at all to link her to any character in the present of the series. And no, having blonde hair like Elayne is not a link. I know more than one blonde person, they can't all be Ilyena.

[Mhoram]

I'd say not, but if you were for arguments sake to say that Elayne is Ilyena (even the names are similar), but then get hung up on who are Min or Avi, remember that LTT/Rand is reborn over and over again.  He's had other loves.  In TGH, Artur Hawkwing says that some things never change, and the Dragon being in strife because of the ladies is a universal constant.  In that case, it's conceivable that the Wheel has cranked out not just Ilyena, but also the two other most significant souls that the Dragon's has had connected to it.  For argument's sake.  Personally, I think they're just three hot chicks that circumstances has allowed him to avoid having to choose between.  Even then, its fortuitous that he needs two women to wield Callandor properly, and two of these can channel very strongly (and yes I know Alivia is meant to be there as well), and the third is a prophetess.  The Pattern yielding up what the ta'varen needs?

[Shadow Rider]

Personally, I think they're just three hot chicks that circumstances has allowed him to avoid having to choose between.  Even then, its fortuitous that he needs two women to wield Callandor properly, and two of these can channel very strongly (and yes I know Aviva is meant to be there as well), and the third is a prophetess.  The Pattern yielding up what the ta'varen needs?

 

 

Really ..... Avi, Min & Elayne are connections to Rands roots...Avi - Aiel,Rands blood, Min - Manetheren, the old blood that raised Rand & Elayne - The Lion Throne, Tigraine his mother.... but I think Moiraine is Ilyena because of her status of character being so important and I do think it will be Nyneeve and Moiraine to link with Rand holding Callandor. Somewhere at this point we would see a reveal or I'm just wrong.....

[Never]

I would say, aren't all souls reborn and rewoven into the pattern? She might be reborn, but her soul not important enough that she would play any significant role in this time-period?

[Shadow Rider]

I would say, aren't all souls reborn and rewoven into the pattern? She might be reborn, but her soul not important enough that she would play any significant role in this time-period?

 

The Wheel weaves as the Wheel wills....who can say, we can only speculate at this point.

[NetSlider]

I voted "not enough info" because there is not enough info (anything possible with RJ). But my wish and speculation is that yes - Min

[mb]

voted "not yet enough info", "anybody's guess", and "undecided".

 

It seems to me that rebirths play a similar role as the soul did in past lives.  Once we find out Ilyena's occupation, we would be able to narrow down the possible candidates for her rebirth.

Linked souls seem to be reborn within the same generation.  If Ilyena's soul is linked with another, her rebirth would depend on whether that other soul is currently reborn.  If the link is with Lews Therin's soul, likely candidates would be Rand's loves.

 

She is Taim.

Taim (and any other male) I think can be ruled out.

I take rebirths are always the same gender as other lives of the soul.

 

[Shadow Rider]

voted "not yet enough info", "anybody's guess", and "undecided".

 

It seems to me that rebirths play a similar role as the soul did in past lives.  Once we find out Ilyena's occupation, we would be able to narrow down the possible candidates for her rebirth.

Linked souls seem to be reborn within the same generation.  If Ilyena's soul is linked with another, her rebirth would depend on whether that other soul is currently reborn.  If the link is with Lews Therin's soul, likely candidates would be Rand's loves.

 

She is Taim.

Taim (and any other male) I think can be ruled out.

I take rebirths are always the same gender as other lives of the soul.

 

 

I thought about that it's not true, a soul can be born either gender....take Balthamel for example...he's a woman now. But then he wasn't re-born just brought back....does it matter....

[mb]

take Balthamel for example...he's a woman now. But then he wasn't re-born just brought back....does it matter....

That I have considered a resurrection instead of a rebirth.

 

[Impressive Bosom]

If she is, if Ilyena is indeed reborn... then she is not Elayne. I just can't see RJ singling out one of the three in such a way, especially when each already fills an archetypical and balanced role in his life (Andoran nobility and Aeil maiden for his bloodlines, the girl next door for the way he was raised).

 

IF she is, then she would have to be Alivia in my opinion. Specifically described as being nearly identical in physical appearance (not that that really matters), Age of Legends level channelling ability... and when she 'helps him die', I suspect she will in fact be welcoming Lews Therin back into World of Dreams to finally find peace with his love.

 

For this reason alone I'm chomping at the bit for a Lanfear/Cydane vs. Alivia showdown.

[FarShainMael]

There are two questions here:

1. Has Ilyena been reborn at this time of the Age; and

2. if so, as who?

 

1. If the Dragon's soul and the soul who we most recently met as Ilyena are a pair like Birgitte and GC, then yes, I'd expect them to be reborn in the same timeframe. As mb says, 'Linked souls seem to be reborn within the same generation.  If Ilyena's soul is linked with another, her rebirth would depend on whether that other soul is currently reborn.'

 

Is Ilyena a HotH? Whether or not she is, that doesn't exclude her rebirth. 'By my hope of salvation and rebirth' is a common oath sworn by Randlanders.

 

Transference of channelling ability between rebirths: I think this one's ok. AIUI, RJ has said that the ability is in both soul and body, so there's nothing against it. But it's not a given; a channeller-soul might be reborn in a non-channeller body.

 

 

2. As who? Souls can't be split, thus spake RJ. So Rand's three lady loves are separate and distinct from each other, though it's been pointed out that they form a mythological triplet. It's unlikely, I feel, that Ilyena would be any one of these three.

 

 

Alivia is one possibility.

 

Alivia's physical similarity to Ilyena; beauty, golden hair, is not significant, I think. After all, Rand (dark, reddish hair, blue/grey eyes) doesn't look anything like LTT (brown hair, dark eyes). Elayne's similarity, golden hair exactly the same shade as Ilyena's, may mean she is a distant descendant (and may also be a red herring trailed by RJ!) The LTT voice notes this similarity, but does not identify Elayne as Ilyena (tFoH Ch 2), nor does sight of her send the voice off into tearful remorse.

 

Alivia wasn't born in the same timeframe, but 4 centuries ago. Even if Rand survives TG and lives on (by whatever means), he's going to survive her by a considerable margin, barring accidents, if male channellers have the same longevity as females, which seems likely.

 

The LTT-voice doesn't recognise her, for what that's worth.

 

Would the Dragon's soulmate help him die? Possibly, to avert a worse fate, such as being turned. Of course, when she 'helps him die' she may die as well, and they both end up back in T'A'R. Which will remove a few complications in terms of the 4 women Rand is bonded to!

 

Alivia's fierce devotion to Rand is uncomfortably reminiscent of Elza'a attitude to him.. and look at her. It's probable that Verin put Elza under this Compulsion to protect Rand; she probably knew Elza was a DF, but couldn't break her oath to the DO. So she Compelled Elza to protect Rand so that he could meet the DO at TG and be defeated by him there. (CoT Ch 24).

 

But could Alivia be under a similar Compulsion, induced by Verin? Such compulsion may be what has apparently allowed Alivia to accept being freed from the a'dam and to retain (or develop) some sort of sense of identity, which I am firmly convinced she would otherwise have lost in four hundred years of referring to herself in the third person.

 

Is Alivia a DF? She might be, and so her sul'dam must have been. This doesn't mean that she's can't be Ilyena reborn, of course. And it might lead to an interesting confrontation with the Dragon! The only thing against this is: why would a DF 'help Rand die'?

 

Or she might have been forced to serve the DO through the a'dam by a DF sul'dam. Resentment of this may have helped her break free of its influence and may account for her desire to punish the damane. Verin may have Compelled her to assist this process.

 

 

The other possibility (raised by Nightstrike and Shadow Rider) is that Ilyena has been reborn as Moiraine. Perhaps NS was just being random, but it puts an interesting slant on the battle between Moiraine and Lanfear during which they fall through the Eelfinns' gateway!

 

AFAIK normally people don't retain memories of former rebirths unless they are significant to the Pattern. We don't know enough about Ilyena to say one way or the other about that. But I'm wondering if Moiraine was given back her memories of her former lives by the 'finns. They seem to be good at that kind of thing. ;)  She may emerge knowing who she is, as Rand realised who he is on DM.

 

 

Summary of such evidence as we have:

 

For Alivia: Is fiercely defensive of Rand. Will 'help Rand die'.

 

Against Alivia: almost out of the right timeframe, not really in the same generation. Not one of Rand's love interests. Not responded to by LTT-voice.

 

 

For Moiraine: is more nearly of the same generation, give or take a couple of decades. Seems (now) to have Rand's best interests at heart, much more so than almost any other AS including Nyn, which may be significant and is certainly atypical of AS. Min's viewing seems to suggest she's essential to Rand's winning TG. 'Narrative causality' (thank you, Pterry) suggests she got rid of her rival Lanfear and was landed in the ToG to find out about her earlier self.

 

Against Moiraine: Not one of Rand's love interests.. but at the top of his 'guilt list' (KoD Ch18). And if she really is Ilyena, Thom is going to be seriously annoyed!

 

So to answer my own questions:

 

1. Yes I think Ilyena's been reborn.

2. Not sure if she was reborn as Alivia, or as Moiraine.

 

[Shadow Rider]

I say yes and I recon she could be Moiraine. I'm hoping we get to see Ilyena give Lews Theron absolution for what he did.

[MikeRiley]

As of Veins of Gold, Ilyena's plot line is finished, if she ever had one. I don't see it happening and I think it would just be bad storytelling to introduce her now. It would be like Mat killing Demandred and Demandred saying before he dies "You are the descendent of the one who killed my father!" It's just stupid and pointless so late in the series. In the books we have nothing that suggests that Ilyena has been reborn and all the current characters are solidly built on their own. They don't need some massive revelation that they are some random girl from the Age of Legends who probably did nothing but die anyway.

 

Veins of Gold tells us she could be reborn somewhere, sometime, and that is why the Dragon fights. It would detract from that if we found out she was right at his shoulder all along. Maybe she'll get a cameo as a random farmer in the last book or something but I doubt it. Ilyena has a new life or is awaiting a new one. She probably lived a few since she was known as Ilyena and is just another random person. Not everybody is always going to be destined for greatness. A king can be reborn as a peasant.

[Duskfire]

As of Veins of Gold, Ilyena's plot line is finished, if she ever had one. I don't see it happening and I think it would just be bad storytelling to introduce her now. It would be like Mat killing Demandred and Demandred saying before he dies "You are the descendent of the one who killed my father!" It's just stupid and pointless so late in the series. In the books we have nothing that suggests that Ilyena has been reborn and all the current characters are solidly built on their own. They don't need some massive revelation that they are some random girl from the Age of Legends who probably did nothing but die anyway.

 

Veins of Gold tells us she could be reborn somewhere, sometime, and that is why the Dragon fights. It would detract from that if we found out she was right at his shoulder all along. Maybe she'll get a cameo as a random farmer in the last book or something but I doubt it. Ilyena has a new life or is awaiting a new one. She probably lived a few since she was known as Ilyena and is just another random person. Not everybody is always going to be destined for greatness. A king can be reborn as a peasant.

 

Yup, couldnt have said it better then myself. It would have no point plotwise and futhermore she could just be a farmer or something. Heck, she could be Liandrin for all we know. Or she may not have been reborn at all; the AOL had a much larger population then is currently around, so logic suggests there are souls that haven't been spun back out yet.

 

Rand and Lews Therin for instance look completely different. Description has nothing to do with a soul, therefore Elayne perhaps looking like her is a coincedence.

[mb]

But could Alivia be under a similar Compulsion, induced by Verin?

First time Verin encountered Alivia I take was in Far Madding; I take Min had the Viewing before then.

A Forsaken would be more probable.  Most likely Semirhage (since she would be most close to Alivia before the Viewing).  Next likely Ishamael (before the series or during the time of the books before his death).  Third likely Moridin or Moghedien (if Alivia spent time in Ebou Dar).  Fourth likely, Graendal.

Yet Alivia seems to not show the signs of Compulsion.

 

[Impressive Bosom]

As of Veins of Gold, Ilyena's plot line is finished, if she ever had one. I don't see it happening and I think it would just be bad storytelling to introduce her now. It would be like Mat killing Demandred and Demandred saying before he dies "You are the descendent of the one who killed my father!" It's just stupid and pointless so late in the series. In the books we have nothing that suggests that Ilyena has been reborn and all the current characters are solidly built on their own. They don't need some massive revelation that they are some random girl from the Age of Legends who probably did nothing but die anyway.

 

Veins of Gold tells us she could be reborn somewhere, sometime, and that is why the Dragon fights. It would detract from that if we found out she was right at his shoulder all along. Maybe she'll get a cameo as a random farmer in the last book or something but I doubt it. Ilyena has a new life or is awaiting a new one. She probably lived a few since she was known as Ilyena and is just another random person. Not everybody is always going to be destined for greatness. A king can be reborn as a peasant.

A big part of my belief that Alivia was Ilyena reborn was Min's prognostication that she would 'help rand die', and my interpretation of that being that she would help Lews Therin find peace and finally leave Rand be (for lack fo a better term). Veins of Gold obviously has forced me to reconsider the entire notion.

 

Their similarities in appearance was just a nice coincidence I'm sure.

 

What troubles me is the fact that 1) Ilyena is Lews Therin's and therefor the Dragon's and therefor Rand's soulmate if you will and 2) we know souls aren't split three ways. So then Rand's devoted harem are collectively just momentary distractions for this life?

[farthammer]

Saying Ilyena is the Dragon's because she had a relationship with LTT is no more valid than saying Lanfear is the Dragon's and must be his soulmate.  We know nothing about her really anyway, she's just a historical footnote that was introduced as a way for Rand's insanity to try to hold on to the past.