Ilyena, is she reborn or not?

[Jillain Sanche]

Yes, farthammer is correct. While she may be reborn, they won't necessarily replay their love.

 

If anyone, I would vote for Egwene, based solely on her experiences in the terangreal test for novice. There is no other evidence that I recall anywhere.

[Suttree]

With the population numbers in Randland along with the story arc it would be just awful if one of the main characters was Ilyena. Not everyone in the story needs to have the soul of someone from the legends!!!

[Ashaman Kovan]

Yes, farthammer is correct.

 

Bet you never thought you'd type those words....;]

[Impressive Bosom]

Saying Ilyena is the Dragon's because she had a relationship with LTT is no more valid than saying Lanfear is the Dragon's and must be his soulmate.  We know nothing about her really anyway, she's just a historical footnote that was introduced as a way for Rand's insanity to try to hold on to the past.

It was my understanding that thier relationshiup was a little more defined than that, that their connection had been referenced more than once. If I'm wrong, then of course you'e right.

[Duskfire]

Saying Ilyena is the Dragon's because she had a relationship with LTT is no more valid than saying Lanfear is the Dragon's and must be his soulmate.  We know nothing about her really anyway, she's just a historical footnote that was introduced as a way for Rand's insanity to try to hold on to the past.

It was my understanding that thier relationshiup was a little more defined than that, that their connection had been referenced more than once. If I'm wrong, then of course you'e right.

 

Well its possible they were awesome together, but as far as I can tell theres been nothing to suggest they were tied to the Pattern like Rand and Ishamael, Birgitte and Gaidal Cain. Then again theres so little information that RJ has obviously delibertely left it up to reader speculation as to whether she is around or not.

 

[OptimusPrime]

What if the Dark One has her soul and plans to use it to distract Rand at the end, like Ishamael did with Kari al'Thor in EotW?

 

I dont think she is reborn. Theres been enough time for it to have had its involvement by now, and the books I think have moved on to bigger and better things.

[Shadow Rider]

I dont think she is reborn. Theres been enough time for it to have had its involvement by now, and the books I think have moved on to bigger and better things.

 

She doesn't need to be a built up character, she only needs to be in scene for a short time to give LTT absolution.

[OptimusPrime]

I dont think she is reborn. Theres been enough time for it to have had its involvement by now, and the books I think have moved on to bigger and better things.

 

She doesn't need to be a built up character, she only needs to be in scene for a short time to give LTT absolution.

 

Lews Therin got his absolution in VoG.

[Shadow Rider]

I dont think she is reborn. Theres been enough time for it to have had its involvement by now, and the books I think have moved on to bigger and better things.

 

She doesn't need to be a built up character, she only needs to be in scene for a short time to give LTT absolution.

 

Lews Therin got his absolution in VoG.

 

No he didn't, Rand figured out why he goes to Battle, why he must do what must be done.

LTT is a tortured soul and needs absolution to give him piece.

[farthammer]

Why do we live again? Lews Therin asked, suddenly. His voice was crisp and distinct.

Yes, Rand said, pleading. Tell me. Why?

Maybe . . . Lews Therin said, shockingly lucid, not a hint of madness to him. He spoke softly, reverently.

Why? Could it be . . . Maybe it's so that we can have a second chance.

 

...

 

And Rand opened his eyes for the first time in a very long while. He knew—somehow—that he would

never again hear Lews Therin's voice in his head. For they were not two men, and never had been.

 

It's laid out pretty clearly that LTT has been put to rest.

[OptimusPrime]

I dont think she is reborn. Theres been enough time for it to have had its involvement by now, and the books I think have moved on to bigger and better things.

 

She doesn't need to be a built up character, she only needs to be in scene for a short time to give LTT absolution.

 

Lews Therin got his absolution in VoG.

 

No he didn't, Rand figured out why he goes to Battle, why he must do what must be done.

LTT is a tortured soul and needs absolution to give him piece.

 

Lews Therin and Rand have the same soul. The foreign memories are supposed to help Rand, but nobody told him about those. They told him about the channeling, the Ta'verenism, and mentioned some madness, but not that he'd get some new memories, so that easily falls under madness if theres no other explanation. Rand couldnt explain them to himself, so the voice was born, a part of Rand that is supposed to understand it all; conveniently he has recently heard that he is Lews Therin reborn, what better name for the voice? It sounds right in his head to explain it like that. But in VoG "LTT" reminded Rand-as in, Rand reminded himself-what he fought for. And in that moment he stopped resisting the memories, more came, and he knows LTT is gone because a persons mind or soul cannot exist twice at once. All this time Rand has seperated himself from the memories because he despises them, thinks he is not like them. But when he remembers love, when he remembers that Ilyena could be reborn, when he remembered he fought for love in this life as well as the last, he realizes he is like them, and thats why he stopped resisting, and thats why more came, thats why Lews Therin is gone, and thats how we know Rand didnt descend into terminal madness. The memories are not a madness, they are a tool. The way he deals with it, which was to create a voice in his mind that represents the memories in order to make it something he can understand, that is Rands madness. VoG showed him stop resisting, there was no more need for the voice because Rand embraced what he had been denying.

 

Lews Therin has been present once in the entire series, and that was in EotW prologue.

[Impressive Bosom]

I dont think she is reborn. Theres been enough time for it to have had its involvement by now, and the books I think have moved on to bigger and better things.

 

She doesn't need to be a built up character, she only needs to be in scene for a short time to give LTT absolution.

 

Lews Therin got his absolution in VoG.

 

No he didn't, Rand figured out why he goes to Battle, why he must do what must be done.

LTT is a tortured soul and needs absolution to give him piece.

 

Lews Therin and Rand have the same soul. The foreign memories are supposed to help Rand, but nobody told him about those. They told him about the channeling, the Ta'verenism, and mentioned some madness, but not that he'd get some new memories, so that easily falls under madness if theres no other explanation. Rand couldnt explain them to himself, so the voice was born, a part of Rand that is supposed to understand it all; conveniently he has recently heard that he is Lews Therin reborn, what better name for the voice? It sounds right in his head to explain it like that. But in VoG "LTT" reminded Rand-as in, Rand reminded himself-what he fought for. And in that moment he stopped resisting the memories, more came, and he knows LTT is gone because a persons mind or soul cannot exist twice at once. All this time Rand has seperated himself from the memories because he despises them, thinks he is not like them. But when he remembers love, when he remembers that Ilyena could be reborn, when he remembered he fought for love in this life as well as the last, he realizes he is like them, and thats why he stopped resisting, and thats why more came, thats why Lews Therin is gone, and thats how we know Rand didnt descend into terminal madness. The memories are not a madness, they are a tool. The way he deals with it, which was to create a voice in his mind that represents the memories in order to make it something he can understand, that is Rands madness. VoG showed him stop resisting, there was no more need for the voice because Rand embraced what he had been denying.

 

Lews Therin has been present once in the entire series, and that was in EotW prologue.

 

If this is in fact what actually transpired in that champter then it clears up SO much. I re-read it three times and never came away exactly sure of the metaphysics/psychology behind what had transpired. Thanks much.

[OptimusPrime]

It is just a theory at the end of the day. Generally I think TGS clears up a lot of the "metaphysics" and worldbuilding elements of the series as a whole. For example, the way Rands darkness was affecting the Pattern made me eventually come up with a theory on the Horn of Valere being made as a plan B for the Light in case their Champion turns Dark. i posted a thing about that somewhere but I cant remember where.

[Shadow Rider]

Much emphasis was placed on LTT's torment over killing the love of his life, after VoG everything is fine?.

VoG didn't do anything about LTT's torment.

 

tGS Ch50 'Veins of Gold'

Why do we live again? Lews Therin asked,suddenly. The voice was crisp and distinct.

Yes Rand said, pleading. Tell me, why?

Maybe ... Lews Therin said, shockingly lucid, not a hint of madness to him. He spoke softly, reverently. Why? could it be ... Maybe it's so that we can have a second chance.

Rand froze. The winds blew against him, but he could not be moved by them. The power hesitated inside of him, like the headsman.s axe, held quivering over the criminals neck. You may not have a choice about which duties are given you. Tams voice, just a memory, said in his mind. But you can choose why you fulfill them.

Why, Rand? Why do we go to battle? What is the point?  

Why?

All was still even with the tempest, the winds the crashes of thunder. All was still.

Why? Rand thought with wonder. Because each time we live, we get to live again.

That was the answer, it all swept over him, lives lived, mistakes made, love changing everything. He saw the entire world in his minds eye lit by the glow in his hand. He remembered lives, hundreds of them,. thousands of them, stretching to infinity. He remembered love, and peace, and joy, and hope.

Within that moment, suddenly something amazing occurred to him.

If I live again, then she might as well.  

 

But I'm not saying the voice will return but LTT himself & Ilyena in scene or who ever has been born with her soul, might sound corny and over the top but as I said LTT's torment has not been addressed to the degree of absolution.

[farthammer]

Can you go ahead and finish the chapter, or the quote I already pasted that you didn't read I guess:

 

And Rand opened his eyes for the first time in a very long while. He knew—somehow—that he would

never again hear Lews Therin's voice in his head. For they were not two men, and never had been.

 

I'm pretty stumped at how LTT could even experience any closure separate from his reborn ego as Rand.  Maybe you want the creator or something to let everyone time travel into the past, armed with detailed knowledge of their prior lives...so that they can try and fix all the shit they ever did?

[Suttree]

Much emphasis was placed on LTT's torment over killing the love of his life, after VoG everything is fine?.

VoG didn't do anything about LTT's torment.

 

tGS Ch50 'Veins of Gold'

Why do we live again? Lews Therin asked,suddenly. The voice was crisp and distinct.

Yes Rand said, pleading. Tell me, why?

Maybe ... Lews Therin said, shockingly lucid, not a hint of madness to him. He spoke softly, reverently. Why? could it be ... Maybe it's so that we can have a second chance.

Rand froze. The winds blew against him, but he could not be moved by them. The power hesitated inside of him, like the headsman.s axe, held quivering over the criminals neck. You may not have a choice about which duties are given you. Tams voice, just a memory, said in his mind. But you can choose why you fulfill them.

Why, Rand? Why do we go to battle? What is the point?  

Why?

All was still even with the tempest, the winds the crashes of thunder. All was still.

Why? Rand thought with wonder. Because each time we live, we get to live again.

That was the answer, it all swept over him, lives lived, mistakes made, love changing everything. He saw the entire world in his minds eye lit by the glow in his hand. He remembered lives, hundreds of them,. thousands of them, stretching to infinity. He remembered love, and peace, and joy, and hope.

Within that moment, suddenly something amazing occurred to him.

If I live again, then she might as well.  

 

But I'm not saying the voice will return but LTT himself & Ilyena in scene or who ever has been born with her soul, might sound corny and over the top but as I said LTT's torment has not been addressed to the degree of absolution.

 

You do realize the voice wasn't actually LTT don't you? How does a coping mechanism in Rand's mind need closure?

[Shadow Rider]

I'm allowed to dream. There is a part of Rand that is LTT, albeit memories.

So why was so much emphasis placed on LTT's torment, I'm only stating I would like to see closure on this.

Maybe it wont happen, but like I said.... I'm allowed to dream.

[Ashaman Kovan]

You do realize the voice wasn't actually LTT don't you?

 

Says you in your opinion.

[Suttree]

You do realize the voice wasn't actually LTT don't you?

 

Says you in your opinion.

 

No says the books...CLEARLY. A soul can not be split or exist at the same time. The memories can be real while the voice actually being LTT is an impossibility.

[farthammer]

Just cause as far as Rand's concerned killing women is his greatest fear.  The voice was playing to that, always pushing him towards insanity.  Consider that the LTT voice cried over Ilyena constantly, yet nothing of his children, not even their names that I can recall.  I think this is getting into real voice/construction voice territory, but it's pretty odd that there was just no apparent grief over them.  I think this is because while Rand does have romantic interests, he himself does not have children and hasn't experienced being a father.  I think this suggest Rand really was driving the types of things the voice went nuts over, and so any absolution can only happen with Rand himself.  And that's basically what happened.

[Fains nose]

Ridiculous. Of course she is reborn, as every single person in the wheel of time world is reborn, but, as every single other person in the WoT world except heroes of the horn, she is reborn as a diferent person, of no relevance to Rand at all.

[Shadow Rider]

I'm pretty stumped at how LTT could even experience any closure separate from his reborn ego as Rand.  Maybe you want the creator or something to let everyone time travel into the past, armed with detailed knowledge of their prior lives...so that they can try and fix all the shit they ever did?

 

I don't remember mentioning anything about Time Travel.... I was thinking along the lines of this...

 

tFoH. Ch52 'Choices'

"I was never yours, Mierin. I will always belong to Ilyena, ever and always my heart"

 

Something like that anyway, Rand spoke as LTT.

[Shimmer]

i would say likely not because she is not a hero bounded to Wheel of Time like Birgitte. We dont know anything about her inspite of being LTT's lover. And Elayne/Ilyena thing is likely to be a red herring to me...but who knows? my vote is for not yet enough info

 

I agree. Despite the obvious similarities (hair colour, names) i think it is a red herring as Ilyena was Lews Therin's wife and primary lover whereas Rand has 3 who equally share his love.

[Shadow Rider]

i would say likely not because she is not a hero bounded to Wheel of Time like Birgitte. We dont know anything about her inspite of being LTT's lover. And Elayne/Ilyena thing is likely to be a red herring to me...but who knows? my vote is for not yet enough info

 

I agree. Despite the obvious similarities (hair colour, names) i think it is a red herring as Ilyena was Lews Therin's wife and primary lover whereas Rand has 3 who equally share his love.

 

I don't think she's one of the three either, but if she were to surface I'd bet on Moiraine.

[MikeRiley]

We'll find out on the last page of the final book that she was the servant Rand ran past while chasing Rhavin in Caemlyn. That would be about as much book time as her character deserved.