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thehumantrashcan

Best and Worst dads in WoT

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The top two in my eyes aren't technically fathers by blood, and one is more a guardian rather than an official father figure, but I'd have to say Tam (Rand's "father".....obviously) and Mat (with the way he takes on responsibility for Olver).

Tam just knows.  Literally no matter the situation he knows the exact way to respond.

​And Mat, while he sort of has a child thrust upon him, he seems to thrive under it, even to the point of where he worries what Olver is learning from the Band members (pretty much every move Mat himself uses on the ladies!).
 

With regards to a bad father, I'm struggling to think of any at this moment in time......

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LOL.  No Cenn.

 

Tam comes to mind and Moiraine's father, Dalresin Damodred.  Moiraine had fond memories of him and loved him. Egwene's dad, Brandelwyn al'Vere.

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Would hate to of been Cenn Blue's kid.

 

 

My father by Averchenko is still relevant. Anyway,

 

 

Figured I'd throw this in over the weekend but was too busy doing dad stuff.  Who do you think was the worst and best dad in WoT?

 

Are you a millennial? Or a redditor? You know, when I see posts like "What did your father teach to you?" or "What’s the best thing you learned from your parents?" I just shake my head in disbelief.

 

Because family background does not matter (especially in WOT: there is no free will in Randland): my parents were/are very poor and 'illiterate', the relationship between them is dysfuntional, their world is the tv, they do/did not care about me  etc., etc. 

 

vs

 

I/We have a very happy family, we are a little above 'the poor level', our home library is carefully selected (almost 2000 books), hikings/campings/doing nothing together etc. And you know, I'm not smarter than my parents (ie just see my posts: my English is still very broken even after decades, I cannot express my thoughts etc.) at all, but I have willpower, and I'm a little 'highbrow'. That's it.  

 

The only thing that matters is you. Your inside. Not the environment, not the people around you, just your inner self.

 

Jesus Rand, that was very preachy.

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Whoooo I think you have read a bit to much into this szilard. I think he just wanted a fun post since the site  has   been soo quiet.  Not to get indepth into parenting.

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Yeah, that's about it Sabio, figured I'd get some fun topic since there was your favorite character I thought I'd go for the theme of father's day.

 

As for your theory with Rand and the books, the possible lives of Rand were pretty dark when Tam wasn't in them so I think the theme of good parents was pretty important RJ, including how the Cenn family and the other family that kept marrying each other kept pumping out rather unkind and unaccepting people.  Matt even used many examples of learning from his dad with horse trading.  But seriously, I'm just looking for what people saw in "father figure" characters in the books and what popped out to them as good or bad.

 

Also, if it makes any difference I was born in the 80s so does that make me generation x or millennial?  Haven't really kept up on the generation labels.

Edited by thehumantrashcan

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Whoooo I think you have read a bit to much into this szilard. I think he just wanted a fun post since the site  has   been soo quiet.  Not to get indepth into parenting.

 

I totally agree here.  This is a great topic.  I think Tam had a very good influence on Rand, having to do it all himself.

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sure,tam was a good father,(we all can probably agree on it),but it was hardly surprising,

after all,tam was not a random soldier who happened to be in the right place at the right

time to take rand to the two rivers,he was chosen for this job by the pattern years earlier

out of (probably)thousands other "candidates ", for his inherent qualities,his job a a farmer

and a soldier,his isolated birthplace and so on...

szilard is right,good parenting vs bad parenting is irrelevant when your baby is the dragon

reborn,ESPECIALLY when your baby is the dragon reborn,we all know that kari al'thor died

when rand was five,so was she eliminated by the pattern because she was going to be a bad

influence on rand in the future?some other reasons?we simply don't know.

tam and kari al'thor were just pawns in a very big and intricate game,nothing more,the moment

kari,tigraine and janduin outlived their usefulness they were gone.

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Just looking for the characteristics of good fathers and bad father in WoT.  Same idea behind the question who is your favorite character.  If you want to get complicated you can talk about whether parenting was important or even necessary in the WoT books with a new thread or something and I'd be happy to be in that.  I'd say the very fact that Rand had a major character change when he finally saw his dad after so long shows that, even if the pattern chose Tam, it chose him for a reason and for the influence he would have on Rand.  I'd say parenting was very important and it shaped each character, at least where the parenting or effects of it were shown in the books.  I mean look at the father figure Perrin had and clung to when his own father died, Master Luhhan and how many lessons Perrin learned from him and how important the intimate moments were at the end of the series.  Even if the pattern organized these pairings and parents, what those "parents" did and how their "children" reacted mattered in the story.  I mean look at the lesson Rand learns in the end, it didn't all come down to what he did, but the fact that all those other people stood against evil in the last battle and they didn't falter or give up.

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@thehumantrashcan

..."it chose him for a reason and the influence he would have on rand."

you are preaching to the choir here,and missing my point.

yes,tam was a good father and had a big and positive influence on rand,

no question about it,good parenting vs bad parenting is irrelevant not because

it's not important,because bad parenting was never an option for tam,the pattern

would never have allowed tam to abuse his mandate,the moment tam was chosen

by the pattern to raise rand everything in his(tam's) life was preordained,so if bad

parenting was not an option what is so  remarkable about tam being a good father?

(what exactly happened to kari al'thor?)

by the way,i'm not unnecessarily complicating your thread,you complicated the issue

when you brought tam as an example of a good father,what choice did he have?

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I suppose I see Tam as having a choice just like Rand had a choice on the top of dragon mount, or everyone had at the last battle, or Siouan had with staying with her warder in order for both of them to stay alive. Remember her choice changed their future and all the visions that Min saw above her head disappeared when she died. What the pattern plans doesn't mean it will happen and Tam could have made the choice to resist and fight the pattern. But even if he couldn't, the pattern still chose him because he would be a good parent and that shows that good parenting did matter because if he wasn't going to parent Rand well he would not have been chosen in the first place. Whether the pattern saw potential in him as a good father or knew every parenting decision he would make with Rand, it chose him because he was the best man for the job.

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Is it the will of the pattern? According to the companion Tam had 2 kids both of whom died, the final incident left his wife unable to have kids.  So had one or both of his children survived or if Kari could still have kids, would he of kept the baby he found or of given it to someone else to raise?  Seemed his main reason for keeping it was he knew Kari always wanted a child.  Was the bad luck set in place so Rand could be raised by Tam?

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yes,everything was orchestrated by the pattern,it wasn't bad luck,

it wasn't happenstance,and it wasn't accidental-it was planned.

the pattern is the ultimate corrective mechanism,killing  tam and kari

two children meant absolutely nothing to it,rand nailed it during his

conversation with elayne, "the pattern is not about emotions-it is not

even about good or evil".

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sure,tam was a good father,(we all can probably agree on it),but it was hardly surprising,

after all,tam was not a random soldier who happened to be in the right place at the right

time to take rand to the two rivers,he was chosen for this job by the pattern years earlier

out of (probably)thousands other "candidates ", for his inherent qualities,his job a a farmer

and a soldier,his isolated birthplace and so on...

szilard is right,good parenting vs bad parenting is irrelevant when your baby is the dragon

reborn,ESPECIALLY when your baby is the dragon reborn,we all know that kari al'thor died

when rand was five,so was she eliminated by the pattern because she was going to be a bad

influence on rand in the future?some other reasons?we simply don't know.

tam and kari al'thor were just pawns in a very big and intricate game,nothing more,the moment

kari,tigraine and janduin outlived their usefulness they were gone.

 

Oh, I think it's quite relevant.  Moiraine and Lan searched for 20 years.  He was being raised in a small village in the middle of nowhere, basically with one parent. With that mindset, once Rand and Egwene left the Two Rivers, Tam should have died along with Egwene's father as they had outlived their "usefulness."

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I suppose I see Tam as having a choice just like Rand had a choice on the top of dragon mount, or everyone had at the last battle, or Siouan had with staying with her warder in order for both of them to stay alive. Remember her choice changed their future and all the visions that Min saw above her head disappeared when she died. What the pattern plans doesn't mean it will happen and Tam could have made the choice to resist and fight the pattern. But even if he couldn't, the pattern still chose him because he would be a good parent and that shows that good parenting did matter because if he wasn't going to parent Rand well he would not have been chosen in the first place. Whether the pattern saw potential in him as a good father or knew every parenting decision he would make with Rand, it chose him because he was the best man for the job.

 

Agree. Tam's parenting did matter. It was also interesting that he never remarried or had more children.

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Was the statement about the pattern when Rand was stone cold and going crazy and before he had the epiphany about love being the whole purpose of the creator creating them and the pattern?  I mean look at the whole show down with the DO, he understood there was a need for balance but that balance was needed for people to make a choice between good and evil, love and hate.  At the end he saw it wasn't just a bunch of black and white choices to make it was allowing people the freedom to choose.  That pattern never forced anyone completely, remember that Ta'veren changed the pattern around them.  All the bits about Rand being a gift from the creator wasn't just some fanatical religion surrounding him, there was some truth to it, he was there for the creator's purpose, to essential bring balance to the pattern, to make sure love and good was being represented.

 

Ryrin brings up a good point, Tam was there because of the influence he had on Rand, that in it's self shows parenting mattered.

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Tam is a great pick. Not just for raising Rand; but for how he dealt with Rand in the Stone of Tear and in the sword practice. He could sense what his son needed and give him the advice to help him make the right choice. Tam wasn't a simple farmer whose role was to raise Rand till Moiraine comes around to take him to the next stage. He was a father who was there for his son to the very end. 

 

Bashere was a good father. We don't see much of it on-screen. But his handling of the first meeting with Perrin in Caemlyn was epic. You could tell that he loved his daughter; and she loved him fiercely. She ran away, shirked her duties to her house; but he met her with a loving embrace; and wanted to make sure that she was happy. 

 

Morgase was a good mother; I love how she considered Galad her son; and how she truly loved him and cared for him. She loved her children; and cared for them despite the duties of monarchy. 

 

Thom is a wonderful stepfather. He truly cared for Elayne; and went out of his way to keep her safe; and to give her whatever mentoring he could to help her become a (slightly) better person ;) 

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Until the creepy flirting stuff Elayne and Thom were doing.

 

That was Elayne's fault; Thom didn't encourage it. He just let her get over it. Glad Nynaeve was there to knock some sense into her; even though Elayne acted as if there was nothing; and berated Nynaeve for thinking that she was flirting with Thom.

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@thehumantrashcan

 

Sorry for the late response! I don't check into DM with constant frequency, plus I have a new mail account, so I just saw your pm.

 

 

You did not do anything wrong.

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