[Basic] Clash of the ancients - Mafia Wins!

hazelkrs1 · April 20, 2014

One other thing I wanted to add is that if it is a 1-1-1-1 or some kind of uniform distribution, I highly doubt TG to be scum. Vos, TG and I are/were all Roman. If TG was scum and had his team pick one of his factionmates to kill, I'm pretty sure it would have been me. Sorry if that sounds egotistical, but TG knows how good of a scumhunter I am.

He could have PR-read Vos, but I doubt it since I didn't see any cop or PR hints from Vos in the QT or the thread.

Incidentally, he did say a couple things (TG did I mean) that set off my scumdar early on (I played the read close to my chest and was planning on revealing it on thread today), so if there IS a random distribution then he's def a good scum candidate. But he still wouldn't be that high on my lynch list as there are many other better candidates than him.

LewisFriendly · April 20, 2014

For the record, I changed my tone when Nolder voted JackD and JackD mentioned that he felt the QTs were compromised.

Then, things started falling into place for me. For example, it made sense that Nolder, who was feeling heat for voting Womby, suddenly tried to shift the tide towards an inactive (Ice). I had assumed that Despo was on a team with Womby and Tress based on things they had seem to imply.

One scum on each team makes the most sense from a game balance sense.

I know that lynching me will flip town, but even if I were to flip scum, it won't tell us anything about the game set up. It will just appease the emotions of some scorned scum, that is all.

We need to lynch someone who is on an already depleted team. Since we all can pretty much vet Tress, that makes Dice the best candidate.

Other than that, HAPPY EASTER!!!!

Songstress · April 20, 2014

Btw, for anyone who needs a meta read:

Lewis is Mynd.

So. Not. Surprised.

See:

Hence....

BAGUETTE!

Umm...

Who are you really, Lewis?

Apparently part of my brain even knew it:

Did some rethinking about Lewis' approach yesterday and realized I tend to be less wary of people who get games kickstarted with vague hunch-based votes and watching reactions, the other way it works is with nitpicking tiny "errors" or jokes and building cases to see who follows (see Mynd, Red, et al). I get more suspicious with those but they work nonetheless.

Wombat called it on the QT. Perhaps Wombat was also right about his alignment, eh?

Thane Vakarian · April 20, 2014

one scum in each QT? that would make 5... a bit much. I'd think there'd be 3, maybe 4.

I agree with Des, voting either Lewis or Nolder (hence my vote) as they'd be the best options for the lynch. Prefer to keep dice alive a bit longer, even though it might be a risk.

That said, happy easter everybody.

Andrej · April 20, 2014

Happy Easter everyone :happy:

This is about as much as you'll get from me today before I get busy getting ready for the dinner tonight. We're gonna be spending time with my kid's grandparents most of the day, so I won't be around.

@Thane - You seem to be suggesting that regardless of how Lewis/Mynd flips that Darthe or I should go next. Why is that?

The best advantage I see with a Viking lynch atm is that it'll reduce the numbers a bit more so that all teams will have 2 except for the Greeks, and allow for easier POE. It may also lead to a scum lynch, but I'm wary of this. I think Darthe is obvtown and despite the way Mynd looks atm I would rather lynch from outside of my pool since there could be a chance that both my partners are town, however small. I would rather lynch from one of the teams with 2 currently because I think we have a higher chance of hitting scum with the idea that 1:1:1:1 is the distribution. 50% > 33% and I like those odds.

Vikings - AJ, Darthe, Mynd

Romans - ~~Vos~~, TG, Despo

Egyptians - ~~Jack~~, Nolder, ???

Greeks - Len, Thane, ???

Chinese - ~~Wombat~~, Tress, Dice

Unclaimed: Dawn, Krak

Nolder is the scummiest dude ITT and I think he hasn't claimed his fellow Egyptian yet because he is probably worried that the person would be a more consensus town read to the other players over him. I really don't see the advantages of not claiming at this point and the fact that he has sort of avoided it until being forced to should say something.

He also is spewing wildly. First he is saying that he thinks Mynd, myself and Darthe are all scum and that one of the nations is completely mafia aligned. This thought is not congruent with his actions if you think of him being suspicious/hammering his own teammate in the prior phase. Regardless if Jack was the inevitable lynch that Day, hammering a person you think is town because they self-voted is poorly justified and a prime example of what I was talking about with using meta as a way to hide intent. Why wouldn't have Nolder been striving harder to keep that lynch from going through is he really believed each of his buddies were town? It simply just doesn't add up. He is LOCKSCUM at this point for me.

amegakure · April 20, 2014

happy easter to you all! See you tonight.

Thane Vakarian · April 20, 2014

well, like you say, i suggest it. If it's the smartest thing to do, that can be talked about. I'm writing down what i'm thinking, and try to make clear what i think. Which, sadly, doesn't always work.

Now, let's say, we change from Lewis/Mynd to Nolder, what would that prove?

Nolder gets lynched, turns out to be town (which would really surprise me) and then the mob can NK another townie....that would be worst case scenario i think. If he turns out scum, at least it's down to one. And then we need to figure out who is scum in which Civ.... that's how i see it.

I'll go on a hunch,and follow my D1 vote:

## unvote Lewis/Mynd vote Nolder

we'll see if other people think the same way.

dawnflower8 · April 20, 2014

one scum in each QT? that would make 5... a bit much. I'd think there'd be 3, maybe 4.

I agree with Des, voting either Lewis or Nolder (hence my vote) as they'd be the best options for the lynch. Prefer to keep dice alive a bit longer, even though it might be a risk.

That said, happy easter everybody.

I agree, that is a lot. What's the chance all the scum are on the same team? I'm thinking either they are all on 1 team or each is on a different team...I doubt any teams have more than 1 scum but not all. That would be sorta strange. (I am assuming there are 3 scum)

Happy Easter everyone

This is about as much as you'll get from me today before I get busy getting ready for the dinner tonight. We're gonna be spending time with my kid's grandparents most of the day, so I won't be around.

@Thane - You seem to be suggesting that regardless of how Lewis/Mynd flips that Darthe or I should go next. Why is that?

The best advantage I see with a Viking lynch atm is that it'll reduce the numbers a bit more so that all teams will have 2 except for the Greeks, and allow for easier POE. It may also lead to a scum lynch, but I'm wary of this. I think Darthe is obvtown and despite the way Mynd looks atm I would rather lynch from outside of my pool since there could be a chance that both my partners are town, however small. I would rather lynch from one of the teams with 2 currently because I think we have a higher chance of hitting scum with the idea that 1:1:1:1 is the distribution. 50% > 33% and I like those odds.

Vikings - AJ, Darthe, Mynd

Romans - ~~Vos~~, TG, Despo

Egyptians - ~~Jack~~, Nolder, ???

Greeks - Len, Thane, ???

Chinese - ~~Wombat~~, Tress, Dice

Unclaimed: Dawn, Krak

Nolder is the scummiest dude ITT and I think he hasn't claimed his fellow Egyptian yet because he is probably worried that the person would be a more consensus town read to the other players over him. I really don't see the advantages of not claiming at this point and the fact that he has sort of avoided it until being forced to should say something.

He also is spewing wildly. First he is saying that he thinks Mynd, myself and Darthe are all scum and that one of the nations is completely mafia aligned. This thought is not congruent with his actions if you think of him being suspicious/hammering his own teammate in the prior phase. Regardless if Jack was the inevitable lynch that Day, hammering a person you think is town because they self-voted is poorly justified and a prime example of what I was talking about with using meta as a way to hide intent. Why wouldn't have Nolder been striving harder to keep that lynch from going through is he really believed each of his buddies were town? It simply just doesn't add up. He is LOCKSCUM at this point for me.

Might as well claim now since everyone else is doing it...I'm not really sure what the point is. I'm on Greece.

Nolder · April 20, 2014

For the record, I changed my tone when Nolder voted JackD and JackD mentioned that he felt the QTs were compromised.

Then, things started falling into place for me. For example, it made sense that Nolder, who was feeling heat for voting Womby, suddenly tried to shift the tide towards an inactive (Ice).

I changed my vote because I noticed we had less than 24 hours left and I wanted to start consolidating votes.

No one was voting Wombat but me at the time, it would have been a waste of a vote to leave it there.

I really wasn't prepared to vote anyone else so I fell back on tried and true methods...check the post count.

Had nothing to do with "heat". I clearly wasn't going to be lynched on D1 so why would I have been worried?

LewisFriendly · April 20, 2014

That rounds it up. Krak is obviously the third Egyptian.

What if the setup was this with three scum:

Team A - 3 vanilla townies

Team B - 3 vanilla townies

Team C - 1 healer, 1 scum, 1 vanilla townie

Team D - 1 cop, 1 scum, 1 vanilla townie

Team E - 1 Vig, 1 scum, 1 vanilla townie

This seems the most balanced setup all around.

I still think we should go with Dice over Nolder because Tress is essentially an uncontested VIG, leaving Dice the only one left on the Chinese team unproven.

LewisFriendly · April 20, 2014

For the record, I changed my tone when Nolder voted JackD and JackD mentioned that he felt the QTs were compromised.

Then, things started falling into place for me. For example, it made sense that Nolder, who was feeling heat for voting Womby, suddenly tried to shift the tide towards an inactive (Ice).

I changed my vote because I noticed we had less than 24 hours left and I wanted to start consolidating votes.
No one was voting Wombat but me at the time, it would have been a waste of a vote to leave it there.

I really wasn't prepared to vote anyone else so I fell back on tried and true methods...check the post count.

Had nothing to do with "heat". I clearly wasn't going to be lynched on D1 so why would I have been worried?

I'm actually starting to buy this now. Call me crazy, it won't be the first time. You do see, however, that both trying to push for an inactive to be lynched AND then hammering your own civ mate looks as scummy as a scum dish salad, don't you?

Nolder · April 20, 2014

I think he hasn't claimed his fellow Egyptian yet because he is probably worried that the person would be a more consensus town read to the other players over him. I really don't see the advantages of not claiming at this point and the fact that he has sort of avoided it until being forced to should say something.

You can speculate all you want but part of being on a team is having some give and take with your partner.

I screwed up with Jack (although he deserved it) I don't want to be known as the jerk who just does whatever they want on teams. Instead of grilling me about a minor detail maybe you could have some patience and wait until easter weekend is over so everyone can check in.

Nolder · April 20, 2014

And with that I'm off again.

I'll catch up more tonight.

Nolder · April 20, 2014

For the record, I changed my tone when Nolder voted JackD and JackD mentioned that he felt the QTs were compromised.

Then, things started falling into place for me. For example, it made sense that Nolder, who was feeling heat for voting Womby, suddenly tried to shift the tide towards an inactive (Ice).

I changed my vote because I noticed we had less than 24 hours left and I wanted to start consolidating votes.
No one was voting Wombat but me at the time, it would have been a waste of a vote to leave it there.

I really wasn't prepared to vote anyone else so I fell back on tried and true methods...check the post count.

Had nothing to do with "heat". I clearly wasn't going to be lynched on D1 so why would I have been worried?

I'm actually starting to buy this now. Call me crazy, it won't be the first time. You do see, however, that both trying to push for an inactive to be lynched AND then hammering your own civ mate looks as scummy as a scum dish salad, don't you?

Voting an inactive is the most pro town move.

You've never seen me argue the fact have you?

In the last year I've really started to push this in every game.

I'll explain it to you later.

Darthe · April 20, 2014

well, like you say, i suggest it. If it's the smartest thing to do, that can be talked about. I'm writing down what i'm thinking, and try to make clear what i think. Which, sadly, doesn't always work.

Now, let's say, we change from Lewis/Mynd to Nolder, what would that prove?

Nolder gets lynched, turns out to be town (which would really surprise me) and then the mob can NK another townie....that would be worst case scenario i think. If he turns out scum, at least it's down to one. And then we need to figure out who is scum in which Civ.... that's how i see it.

I'll go on a hunch,and follow my D1 vote:

## unvote Lewis/Mynd vote Nolder

we'll see if other people think the same way.

I'm going to go with no considering that Mynd's biggest push is Nolder and Dice. You would have to be blockheaded to not see that that is a bad idea. Plz put your vote back on the mafia now, thanks.

That rounds it up. Krak is obviously the third Egyptian.

What if the setup was this with three scum:

Team A - 3 vanilla townies

Team B - 3 vanilla townies

Team C - 1 healer, 1 scum, 1 vanilla townie

Team D - 1 cop, 1 scum, 1 vanilla townie

Team E - 1 Vig, 1 scum, 1 vanilla townie

This seems the most balanced setup all around.

I still think we should go with Dice over Nolder because Tress is essentially an uncontested VIG, leaving Dice the only one left on the Chinese team unproven.

Still no because even if your theory is correct Dice has a 2/5 chance of being town. Which we have no reason to doubt except that he is a bit quiet. Even if he is it doesn't confirm this theory and I still don't trust you remotely so I am not at all following your pushes.

@Everyone, why aren't you voting the clearest anti-town player in the game yet?

LewisFriendly · April 20, 2014

For the record, I changed my tone when Nolder voted JackD and JackD mentioned that he felt the QTs were compromised.

Then, things started falling into place for me. For example, it made sense that Nolder, who was feeling heat for voting Womby, suddenly tried to shift the tide towards an inactive (Ice).

I changed my vote because I noticed we had less than 24 hours left and I wanted to start consolidating votes.
No one was voting Wombat but me at the time, it would have been a waste of a vote to leave it there.

I really wasn't prepared to vote anyone else so I fell back on tried and true methods...check the post count.

Had nothing to do with "heat". I clearly wasn't going to be lynched on D1 so why would I have been worried?

I'm actually starting to buy this now. Call me crazy, it won't be the first time. You do see, however, that both trying to push for an inactive to be lynched AND then hammering your own civ mate looks as scummy as a scum dish salad, don't you?

Voting an inactive is the most pro town move.
You've never seen me argue the fact have you?

In the last year I've really started to push this in every game.

I'll explain it to you later.

I always considered that an inactive scum is better than an active one. An inactive townie is just dead weight, we don't need them to get a majority. Inactive scum are much more detrimental to the mafia team than town. They can't coordinate their moves and in some games, have even ruined the mafia's gambit by not paying attention.

Something I'd love to discuss more when we can be less concerned about the game we are in.

Still, you have to admit, that was pretty scummy?

dicetosser1 · April 20, 2014

im quiet darthe cause i dont really have anything to contribute atm. Ive said my thoughts regarding lewis (note can we just call him lewis til this game is over? if someone votes mynd at DL and it doesnt get counted its gonna be annoying). and dont really have anymore atm.

one thought i can see why lewis would think nolder scummy for voting inactives....iirc a lot of us had the same reaction and he got lynched a few times for it, when he first started doing it. For me its just nolder. He does it no matter what alignment he is.

amegakure · April 20, 2014

i found the y ;)

Darthe · April 20, 2014

im quiet darthe cause i dont really have anything to contribute atm. Ive said my thoughts regarding lewis (note can we just call him lewis til this game is over? if someone votes mynd at DL and it doesnt get counted its gonna be annoying). and dont really have anymore atm.

one thought i can see why lewis would think nolder scummy for voting inactives....iirc a lot of us had the same reaction and he got lynched a few times for it, when he first started doing it. For me its just nolder. He does it no matter what alignment he is.

Fair to me. Youre totally on your town meta so long as this keeps up.

LewisFriendly · April 21, 2014

In my own defense, let me ask this:

Since the scum team are the only ones aside from the Mods who know how the scum team is set up, wouldn't you agree that they will do everything in their power to try and confuse us and distract us from figuring this out? It only serves them to keep their secret hidden and distract the town from figuring them out. If the QTs are indeed compromised, they will be the ones who (at least initially) down play that idea and pooh-pooh anyone who brings it up.

The last thing the mafia wants to do is to ring the alarm. This is exactly what I did when I saw Nolder hammer JackD and then JackD post about the QTs being compromised. I figured that if Nolder was a scum traitor on JackD's civilization QT, then one of my fellow Vikings had to be scum to.

Throw in Nolder's questionable push for Ice the Inactive's lynch, I began to think that of course Nolder would go after the guy on his own scum team who is inactive. This would make him look like an angel.

I also got Darthe a bit spun up on the QT when I was pretty sure he was scum. He's still reacting to this and I hate to say, he seems to be using emotion as his guide rather than logic. Pity because all three of us Vikings are probably town.

3 scum make up for the vig being in the game. If there were 4, then having a vig in a game could end the whole thing in favor of the mafia with a town lynch on day 3.

1 scum on each of the civs that have power roles.

the other two teams are all vanilla townies.

I think that would be the best setup.

Lenlo · April 21, 2014

Alright back from Easter. Whos ready to play?!

Darthe · April 21, 2014

Lol Mynd that only works if we ignire that youve done everything in your power to sow 20 different ways that this thing is setup.

LewisFriendly · April 21, 2014

Lol Mynd that only works if we ignire that youve done everything in your power to sow 20 different ways that this thing is setup.

Spell-check is a thing. (Says the guy who spells his name with a "y")

Darthe, as I said in the QT, if you are indeed town, take a step back and look at the game set-up objectively. You've modded games before. Wouldn't it make sense to place the scum on the teams with power roles? It's pretty interesting that Nervo got whacked on N1. Likely that he was ratted out.

Also, as you admitted on the QT, you are all but certain that Tress is town "obviously" - so, why are we not lynching Dice? Even if I am scum, lynching Dice will either prove or disprove the setup.

Please, for the town, stop this BIG GAME HUNTING obsession and step back. Be objective. Look at the game setup.

Nolder · April 21, 2014

I'm already working on Avengers 2: Age of Ultron. Since MyndJack is now defunct, I'll have to beg his Modness Verbal the High Exalted One to let me run it here. Thanks though. I had so much fun modding that game. I just wished that Deadpool got more play in that game. I loved writing the Deadpool scenes.

Awesome. Put me on auto sign up when that happens.

Nolder · April 21, 2014

I always considered that an inactive scum is better than an active one. An inactive townie is just dead weight, we don't need them to get a majority. Inactive scum are much more detrimental to the mafia team than town. They can't coordinate their moves and in some games, have even ruined the mafia's gambit by not paying attention.

Here's the scenario I always consider when it comes to inactives.

It's endgame. Everyone is dead except two townies and 1 scum.

The scum and one townie have been active and one townie hasn't been but he's around now.

The decision rests with our active townie, does he trust the guy who's been active and go for the mysterious man behind door number 1...or does he side with the guy he knows nothing about and kill the active guy.

Let's examine those choices.

If he lynches the scum...aren't we going to feel cheated?

The scum put in a lot of work to stay active and pretend to scumhunt, to maneuver himself alive to endgame.

And what beat him and his team? The flip of a coin essentially. It's not based on logic or reason most of the time when this scenario pops up it's based on last minute tells, hints of nervousness or over defensiveness. Things that are really easy to misread. If all three were active they'd be looking at each others voting records and what they said and who did what but because that info isn't available they fall back on D1 type of scumhunting which for most people is very unreliable.

Let's flip it now.

He lynches the townie and scum win.

Well crap that sucks too doesn't it? Who's to say if that townie hadn't been active and towntelling that the other guy wouldn't have realized the scum was scum? By endgame unless a scum has played an excellent game they've showed their ass in at least one way or another so if you're looking at voting records and whatnot you can usually catch them if you're perceptive.

But let's flip the whole scenario and make the scummer inactive, does that really change anything? When someone who's been barely playing wins does anyone feel satisfied? Or likewise when he loses does it feel like an accomplishment, to beat a player who wasn't really playing? No it's lame all in all and most mafia players are going to be upset with how that game ends even if they're nice enough people not to gripe about it afterwards.

This is what can happen when you let inactives slide to the endgame but what that also does is leave a door open to use inactivity as a tactic. I don't blame mafia for using this tactic. The less mafia says the better oftentimes. It's townies job to keep everyone talking and to keep poking and prodding and getting everyone's position on the game. If you let people slide mafia WILL take advantage of it.

Hell just lazy people will. Then you have games like we see often now with 3-4 people inactive or barely active, 2-3 replacements, etc. And no one even considers how much extra work that puts on the mod and how rude it is to everyone. I know we're all friends, generally speaking, but we let each other get away with being very disrespectful to each other in that way. Excuse the language but if I called someone a bitch or an asshole in a serious manner everyone would freak out and tell me off but no one says anything to someone who chronically joins games and always has a very low post count. I'm not sure if you guys just don't understand how rude that really is or what but maybe you can take a second to think about how you feel as a mod when you have to replace someone you were counting on to play or how you feel as mafia when your teammate with an important role is just no where to be found. What about when you finally do lynch someone for inactivity and it was the cop or doc? Don't you guys ever feel cheated by this stuff? I know I do.

Stop letting these people go to end game. Stop rewarding the lazy players.

I had more to say but it got way too preachy.

But anyway that's my spiel on inactives more or less.

[Basic] Clash of the ancients - Mafia Wins!

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