[Regimental Book Discussion] The Horn of Valere in AMoL

[Nikonis]

Although the spoiler ruls has been lifted as of today I still would like to include the warning in case someone has not read it and does not want to read spoilers.

WARNING! The following may DOES contain spoilers from A Memory of Light... You have been warned.

 

Because our monthly discussion involves material covered in AMoL we were told that we would need to wait until January 8th (Wednesday) to post the information since that is the one year anniversary of the book's release and will be the date when the Ban on Spoiler Material will be lifted. Until then please feel free to look up the parts of AMoL and and all the previous books where the Horn is mentioned so you can have your material on hand.  We apologize for the delay and have the discussion broken up into multiple, week long, sub-discussions all focusing on the Horn's importance to the final book in this Epic Fantasy Series we have all enjoyed so much.

 

This month we are doing things a little differently, rather than nail down to one topic we are hosting the monthly discussion on a range of topics which all focus on The Horn of Valere in AMoL. Please attempt to stick to the dates included for each discussion point. You may continue discussions on dates which have past however we would like to try and keep this discussion active throughout the month and, in an attempt to do so, have split it up to allow a five to six days of discussion per point. If things are slow or you think you'll be away from DM for one of the discussion dates you may skip ahead but in general we want to try and see how this split-day discussion works out.

• Jan 4-8
  (In reguards to Mat and the Horn) What were you expecting to happen in AMoL? How did you think the Horn was getting to Mat?..
   
• Jan 8-13
  When Faile took the horn from TarValan it was hidden from everyone as Tabac for Matt. Was it wise to keep the contents of the box a secret from everyone or should have some of the trusted members of the band who were present been made aware of their true mission?
   
• Jan 13-18
  During the mission mentioned in the previous part of our discussion some of the band members argued that they should be paid for escorting supplies while others stated they should be in battle and not guarding a supply cart. If you were present in the group what would your comments be towards the others who were present be and which side, or what new side, would you take?
   
• Jan 18-23
  It is commonly argued that Mat was unbound from the Horn when he was killed by the bolt of lightning Rahvin created in Caemlyn however the death was undone when Rand Balefired Rahvin minutes later. For the third part of our monthly discussion on the Horn in AMoL we ask, Should Oliver have been able to blow the horn?
   
• Jan 23-29
  When the Heroes of the Horn are Summoned Mat asks if HE is a hero and they reply that he is NOT, how do you believe the Heroes are chosen? Is it a Choice?
   
• Jan 29-31
  For the final part of our monthly discussion we ask, how did you feel when Birgitte and Noal were called back as Heroes of the Horn?  Who else do you believe should have been called back from the dead?

[BFG]

And until the 8th...

 

What were you expecting to happen? How did you think the Horn was getting to Mat?..

 

For me it was crazy when I was thinking about it? Mat was stuck at the Tower of Ghenjei, with potentially no gateway coming (think people would be distracted by the invasion of Caemlyn that just happened), and needed to get to the White Tower before the Last Battle started.  The level of travelling he had to do was probably one of the biggest reasons I had with their only being one book left... 

[Jeannaisais]

Looks great guys *wishes she had already finished the series so she could more easily participate*

[Davrick]

I had a feeling that Mat wouldn't go near the tower.  I think because he still thought Eladia was in control.  So I always figured that the horn would somehow be brought to him.  I also was thinking that the horn wasn't tied to him anymore.

[dicetosser1]

I thought that at some point all three boys would end up together at shayol ghul

 

 

also perhaps u sound put the word SPOILERS in the title just in case

[F Horn of Valere]

Before reading, I wondered if Mat would die and then be brought back by Nynaeve.

 

Edit: That's right... what DJ said. Above was an alternate if his hanging was not enough to sever the tie.

[Direwolf Jon]

I thought like Dav did, I thought due to events that happened to Mat, that Mat's connection to the Horn was severed earlier in the series.  I wasn't sure how he would get to the Horn, but I felt he would get to it because of need.  *will have to wait until the 8th to discuss more*

[Nikonis]

Okay everyone, the 8th is here and I have added the information on how we want to try and do this months discussion as well as the discussion points and spoiler warning just in case anyone does not wish to be spoiled.

[Nikonis]

What were you expecting to happen in AMoL? How did you think the Horn was getting to Mat?..

I did not know what would happen but felt that Matt, Rand and Perin would all meet back up for the final battle since the books began with them leaving the Emond's Field together. I thought that Egwene, as the Amerlyn, would be bringing the horn to the battle and giving it directly to Matt.

 

When Faile took the horn from TarValan it was hidden from everyone as Tabac for Matt. Was it wise to keep the contents of the box a secret from everyone or should have some of the trusted members of the band who were present been made aware of their true mission?

I personally believe that the Band members whom Matt trusted most should have been made aware of the trus purpose of the mission so that Faile was not the ONLY person who knew what they were really there for. Once they exited the gateway in the wrong location I feel that the others would be less intent on protecting the cargo and more intent on surviving.  At least if a few of the Band members were aware of the true mission they would be more focused on getting the horn to Matt in time. If the band members knew of the true contents then they could have more eyes on the chest and also wouldn't have caught the attention of the beasts that came running when the two band members found the horn after Faile hid it the one night she took it out and hid it in the wilderness.

[F Horn of Valere]

Regarding Faile and the Horn.... I am split on this. In hindsight, it would have been better, but in foresight, I'm not so sure. She had no way of knowing what would happen. Probably the right call at the time, but the wrong call in hindsight.

[dicetosser1]

I thought the whole plan for getting the Horn was stupid. They should have grabbed a few Aes Sedai into a security detail, travelled straight to and from the hiding place and just given it to Mat directly. All the subterfuge just made it MORE possible for something to go wrong.

 

They couldn't tell any Band members,   and shouldn't have told Faile,  because they could not be 100% sure they were not DFs. Even I was gobsmaked and thought one of my favs anin  was a DF!!!!!

 

 

I believe my plan above should have been followed.

[F Horn of Valere]

The Aes Sedai could have been darkfriends too. In retrospect, yeah, your plan is better though.... but they should have selected AS who they knew for SURE were clean. 

[dicetosser1]

i meant to say that!!!!

[Nikonis]

During the mission mentioned in the previous part of our discussion some of the band members argued that they should be paid for escorting supplies while others stated they should be in battle and not guarding a supply cart. If you were present in the group what would your comments be towards the others who were present be and which side, or what new side, would you take?

 

As was stated in at least one part of the book this was the last battle so I don't think argueing about payment would be top on my list. IF they were only transporting food and supplies those would be things that the armies would need and if you were too greedy to help out for the survival of the good guys then why were you even there? While guarding the transport caravan of supplies may not be as thrilling as the front lines it is still a very important part of the battle and those ordered to do the job, especially if Mat chose them, shouldn't be argueing over such petty things.

[Hayl3y]

(i'm really sad that i can't participate to that because i have not read the book yet)

*coughs*

*runs away to another thread so she can't read the spoilers*

[F Horn of Valere]

So having done lots of boring guard duty in the military, I can attest that when doing something you think is a useless waste of time, frivolous things become more important. For example, while on a low salary, figuring how what your salary is in an hourly wage, and then figuring out how little you just made in six hours of guarding something no one actually would ever want to get into. 

In the case of AMoL, they were doing flat out boring duty. It was a means to pass the time. They may have been serious, but whether intentional my Sanderson or not, in all likelihood, it was at least partially tongue-in-cheek, whether regarding the fact that there was a definite possibility of never getting to spend any pay, or just due to boredom.

[F Horn of Valere]

*wishes it was a few days from now so I can comment on the next question*

[Nikonis]

It is commonly argued that Mat was unbound from the Horn when he was killed by the bolt of lightning Rahvin created in Caemlyn however the death was undone when Rand Balefired Rahvin minutes later. For the third part of our monthly discussion on the Horn in AMoL we ask, Should Oliver have been able to blow the horn?

This is a tough one, though team Jordan has said that it happened at that point I do not see how that would work since Rand balefired Rahvin which would have canceled out Mat's death as if it never happened. I instead believe that Matt's death was when he hung from the tree and Rand's CPR brought him back but only after the horn's bond was released from him.

 

When the Heroes of the Horn are Summoned Mat asks if HE is a hero and they reply that he is NOT, how do you believe the Heroes are chosen? Is it a Choice?

I think that it is not necessarily a choice but that the horn may take your desires into consideration... It decides if you are worthy of being a hero but after that you may turn the position down...

[F Horn of Valere]

It is commonly argued that Mat was unbound from the Horn when he was killed by the bolt of lightning Rahvin created in Caemlyn however the death was undone when Rand Balefired Rahvin minutes later. For the third part of our monthly discussion on the Horn in AMoL we ask, Should Oliver have been able to blow the horn?

This is a tough one, though team Jordan has said that it happened at that point I do not see how that would work since Rand balefired Rahvin which would have canceled out Mat's death as if it never happened. I instead believe that Matt's death was when he hung from the tree and Rand's CPR brought him back but only after the horn's bond was released from him.

 

Balefire is tricky. I buy their explanation-- while the pattern corrects itself, it only is doing a patch-up job. (For example, this is why the Flame of Tar Valon weave was necessary.) Mat died, was brought back, and remembered dying. It is entirely possible that the severed link wasn't properly patched up in the process.

 

Another option.... who says anyone actually is tied to the Horn? What if that was a false rumor spread to prevent random people from blowing it before it was hidden? Maybe the rumor even fooled Sanderson!

 

When the Heroes of the Horn are Summoned Mat asks if HE is a hero and they reply that he is NOT, how do you believe the Heroes are chosen? Is it a Choice?

I think that it is not necessarily a choice but that the horn may take your desires into consideration... It decides if you are worthy of being a hero but after that you may turn the position down...

 

 

Two thoughts on this.

1. Mat did not become a hero because the bulk of what made him a hereo was not his. All of his battle memories are stolen from other heroes. (I can't remember if his luck was his own, or if that was "borrowed" too.) He did have his own qualities, but he only was even able to use them thanks to the borrowed qualities keeping him alive at various points, such as the taking of Cairhein. 

 

2. How do the heroes know he is not bound? Maybe they should stop assuming!

[dicetosser1]

It is commonly argued that Mat was unbound from the Horn when he was killed by the bolt of lightning Rahvin created in Caemlyn however the death was undone when Rand Balefired Rahvin minutes later. For the third part of our monthly discussion on the Horn in AMoL we ask, Should Oliver have been able to blow the horn?

 

Absolutely NOT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!  By RJs own rules balefire stops the thing from happening from BEFORE it happens!!  how far before depends on how strong you are. Rand is the strongest. and remember Mat remembered the darkhound slobbering on him too.

 

 

I dont think it is a choice per se   Hawkwing wouldn't have chosen it at the time he was dying because he'd think it was tied to the OP.  I think it was based on your actions and your heart

[WolfbrotherKronos]

I thought Mat died in Rhuidean and that is when he got unbound to the Horn.

[Harry Potter]

The memories Mat has are not other people's memories, they are his as much as Lews Therin' s memories are Rand's. Hend says 'Though you have done more than enough to earn a place...' He does not mean that Mat has done enough in this one lifetime as we know that to be chosen as a hero of the horn one needs to prove themselves again and again and again life after life after life.

Amaresu also reminds him that '... all the while you forget that every breath you breathe- every step you take- comes at his forbearance. Your life is a gift from the Dragon Reborn, Gambler...'

Gambler. That is who he is throughout the ages, in every life he is born into.

 

In regards to which death unbound Mat from the horn Hawkwing tells Mat 'Not the tree, Gambler. Another moment,one that you cannot remember. It is fitting as Lews Theirn did save your life both times...'

[csarmi]

Except we KNOW for a fact that those are other people's memories, surely collected by the Finns.

 

There is direct proof that it isn't "past lives". Just to name one: Mat has memories from people that lived at the same time.

[Harry Potter]

He does? I don't remember that.

[csarmi]

Yup.

 

Mat is speculating about these memories a lot and I think he figures out how this works by the end of the story. He's probably right.