A Song of Fire & Ice Book Discussion Thread (Up To Dance With Dragons)

[BFG]

Yeah "You will know". But I think it would be of more moment if it were betraying Jorah for power. But I still think the idea of this tragic fate for Jorah where the man who did betray for love ends up betraying Dany for love. Something which didn't need to happen and ends up being tragic. Martin does seem to be really going to town with the sympathy thing in ADWD. Even Tyrion ends up begrudgingly feeling sorry for him. IMO this is because hes probably going to do something which the readers wouldn't like. Since killing Daario doesn't fit the bill...

 

I just don't see what his role could be. Before he acted as Danys slightly pragmatic advisor questioning some of her nievity and as a counterpoint to Barristan. Tyrion sort of displaces that role and whilst I think those two are a great duo I can't see how it can go on. I also, although there is some ambivalence in ASOS, I can't see Dany deciding she does want to be with Jorah. I think after ADWD she would take him back into her service. So, either he dies, or something happens to change his position radically. Becoming a dragonrider would do that and that is definetly an issue of imminence. Dany has ridden Drogon, they are big enough, Quentyn tried to steal them and Victarion has the horn planning on taking them. Winds of Winter will probs see this decided. But thats an aside. I think he has to ultimately end up betraying her for love because he has always put love before duty and that lingering thread to Lynesse could be the link. I doubt Martin would place a character flaw on a character and not bring it up again. 

 

 

The biggest proof for your theory is that she did arguably betray Viserys, her own blood by not trying to convince Drogo to not kill him. Although you might argue that since this was before House of the Undying and it was describing a future event that it has to be later. Maybe a possible conflict with Aegon or referring to her stealing the unsullied because of the blood the slavers had shed and betraying their trust. 

 

I think the wording doesn't exclude things that have already happened, but I don't think Viserys is one of them.  I think the argument can be made that she betrayed either/or/both Drogo and her son for love.  I'm not convinced about Jorah, I haven't read the books for a while and I'm only on CoK now so I'll see what I think when I get there.

 

As I said, I don't really have reasons behind it, just a feeling he may try and pull a Lyra/Northern Lights scenario.

[False Dragon1991]

Quote-

 

I think the wording doesn't exclude things that have already happened, but I don't think Viserys is one of them.  I think the argument can be made that she betrayed either/or/both Drogo and her son for love.  I'm not convinced about Jorah, I haven't read the books for a while and I'm only on CoK now so I'll see what I think when I get there.

 

As I said, I don't really have reasons behind it, just a feeling he may try and pull a Lyra/Northern Lights scenario.

 

 

Whats a Lyra/ Northern Lights scenario? 

 

Lynesse does get mentioned quite a few times during the books and is pretty central to Jorahs original downfall and IMO main character flaw. Basically, I don't see him getting with Dany, I don't see him moving on for anybody but Lynesse, But it would seem odd for him to just get killed off for a sympathy vote in Winds.  

 

 

 

 

I hope the symbolism in her final chapter was suggesting that Dany will beat her enemies spectacularly. Its filled with symbolism. I particularly noted the deceptively out of place comic scene where she wakes up with ants writhing all over her body and biting her and on waking effortlessly brushes them off and crushes them. The ants inadvertently and quite literally woken the dragon. It also echoes how Dany has been appeasing them and not fighting back this entire time. Somebody even spits in her face and she doesn't get angry.  It also reminded me of a dream Egwene has in Wheel of Time about Rand being tall as a mountain crushing people like ants as he walked though a city. The fact that she finds them pouring through a wall could also suggest the wall being breached.

 

Can anyone think of any other suggestive bits of symbolic foreshadowing?

 

 

[False Dragon1991]

Course, for all I know Dany will let Jorah carry the sword Dawn for her since she is Azzor Ahai, the sword of the Daynes is Lightbringer, Dany can't use swords and she promised Jorah she'd give him a dragonsteel sword; with the last time she saw him cryptically saying the gods might some final service for him. That would be ironic foreshadowing.

[Plato]

I'm alittle over half way done with Dance of Dragons.  (I'm right where Dany is at the just opened fighting pits).  I must admit this touchy feely nice nice Dany has got to go!  She need to come around and slay all her enemies or feed them to her dragons!

[False Dragon1991]

I'm alittle over half way done with Dance of Dragons.  (I'm right where Dany is at the just opened fighting pits).  I must admit this touchy feely nice nice Dany has got to go!  She need to come around and slay all her enemies or feed them to her dragons!

 

 

        

 

Yeah, she gots to go. She is the   and should act like it.

 

 

She fusses over things like needing evidence before arresting the slaver lords. Evidence! Dany, whatever happened to the sweet little girl who could watch her own brothers face melt and order all the male slavers of Astapor put to death? 

 

:D Seriously though. Dany is meant to be the gentle fae princess meant to heal the wounds realms who, somehow along the way turned into the Queen of Blades instead. Not....Ned with teats.

[Agitel]

EDIT: Oops, belongs in ADwD thread. 

[Agitel]

Dany can be incredibly cruel and vindictive to those she thinks are evil, but she's always had a soft spot for the innocent, and it's gotten to the point where it's counterproductive. It's my opinion that the point of Dance is for her to outgrow that. Like Jon, she needs to learn to "kill the boy," or girl, in her case.

[Plato]

Coffee table book!?  Pssh!  I need another cinder-block-size book to complete my pyramid!

[Plato]

All this talk of Dany is well and good, but what about our favorite Crow? 

 

Jon Snow, if he still lives (probably) is still in a pretty predicament.. It's so complicated, it's hard to type out. 

 

The other crows betraying him, how will the Queen react?  Did she orchestrate it.  What will Melisandre say, is Ramsay's letter a bluff or real?  Is Stannis truly defeated or did the Braavosi banker give him some good information: he said Winterfell was empty.  How will the wildlings react to the crows killing Jon Snow?  What about the other wildlings stationed at the formerly abandoned castles?  What role will Asha play?  Is Reek's story done yet?  Why has everyone, but Jon Snow, forgotten that the only reason the Wildlings are crossing the wall is because the GREATER threat is coming...

 

So many loose ends to tie up.  Considering the title, I hope it will deal with these issues mostly.

[False Dragon1991]

All this talk of Dany is well and good, but what about our favorite Crow? 

 

Jon Snow, if he still lives (probably) is still in a pretty predicament.. It's so complicated, it's hard to type out. 

 

The other crows betraying him, how will the Queen react?  Did she orchestrate it.  What will Melisandre say, is Ramsay's letter a bluff or real?  Is Stannis truly defeated or did the Braavosi banker give him some good information: he said Winterfell was empty.  How will the wildlings react to the crows killing Jon Snow?  What about the other wildlings stationed at the formerly abandoned castles?  What role will Asha play?  Is Reek's story done yet?  Why has everyone, but Jon Snow, forgotten that the only reason the Wildlings are crossing the wall is because the GREATER threat is coming...

 

So many loose ends to tie up.  Considering the title, I hope it will deal with these issues mostly.

 

I've not really been avidly following Jons arc and NO, he is NOT dead. Not a chance. :D He still needs to screw or marry Dany as per the House of the Undying Prophecy. I am not pleased by this, but it will happen. 

 

IMO he will be pushed out of the Nights Watch and be deeply embittered by this. Unless Bran is able to influence him I think his destiny will lie south. Basically I think he will assume that he is the last Stark and try to reclaim Winterfell using the Wildlings. Its what he was literally just about to do. This could well lead to a conflict with Manderly and Stannis if they bring Rickon back. I I would hazard a guess that Brans warning vision about Jons heart filling with ice foreshadows when he is put in a position where he fights his own family. It would be tragic and ironic if Cats fears about Jon towards her own children and inheritance inadvertently came true. 

 

I definetly don't know how the wall can be held. The wildlings SHOULD massacre all the watchman and flee south after jons stabbing. I also think Martin made comments on there being more about the Others in this next book.

 

Frankly, I am very apathetic about the Others and the threat they pose. Martin has been so cryptic, held them back so long and made it clear that they will eventually dominate the plot that I am not looking forward to it. We've had 5 books ALL about the Game of Thrones. I don't want this to suddenly go Last Battle and everything abruptly stops in the rest of the plot. The Game of Thrones is the arc with all its complexity and nuance that I have invested in; not his supernatural stuff. Especially since if Martin is serious about his realism then Winter should immediatly turn the world post apocalyptic. No more plots, no more grand armies, nobody knows whats happening a few miles away; just lots of starving people freezing to death and turning into. BORING.

 

The same goes for Dany. I really don't want Martin to jump the gun and start going in depth about the whole AA, PTWP fire avatar stuff before Dany invades Westeros. I prefer when her story is about her trying to retake the throne. The crazy daemonic, khorne, valkia, savior/destroyer stuff with Dany just, again, hes been too cryptic, held too much back, only hinted at it and so dumping that arc down now would be a let down. I want him to focus on Danys invasion of Westeros, not her becoming fire jesus and fighting the Others.  

[Plato]

See, if we all assume Jon isn't dead, why have it end in a 4-way-stabbing at all?  Why tease us like that? 

[Agitel]

See, if we all assume Jon isn't dead, why have it end in a 4-way-stabbing at all?  Why tease us like that? 

 

Because if he is dead we know that 1) he is a warg and his soul will go into Ghost (see the prologue of Dance) and 2) there's a Red Priestess there who's about to see Jon Snow dead beneath a bleeding star (sigil of the guy who's getting flailed around) surrounded by smoke (from the fires) and salt (from the tears of the men stabbing him) after she's been shown Jon's face when seeking Azor Ahai in the flames. We weren't shown two different resurrections (Beric and Cat) for no reason. You got to establish the magic well ahead of time before you use it for a major plot point.

 

Jon's oath to the Watch technically ends with his death. Dying and rezzing would free him.

[False Dragon1991]

See, if we all assume Jon isn't dead, why have it end in a 4-way-stabbing at all?  Why tease us like that? 

 

 

I have no idea. Maybe he thinks he is more clever than he is?

 

The only reason for cliffhangers is to build hype for the next book. ADWD and AFFC are ALL cliffhangers. On the eve of three major battles and a swath of major and minor characters fates were left hanging precariously in the air. I can only assume that after the 11 year slog through Crows and Dragons that either Martin or the editors felt insecure about continuing interest in the series with the big gaps between publication. Really, the only reason for cliffhangers is to keep people hooked into the series. 

[False Dragon1991]

Been wondering about how in Wheel of Time you have Fain (Mashadar) and the Dark One as two evil beings trying to corrupt the world. I tink it might be possible that the forces of fire (Rhollor) are trying to do the exact opposite to what the others are doing, a "summer which never ends" by destroying all ice (Great Other) in the world. Those of us who have read Wheel of Time know that a never ending summer is just as bad as a never ending winter. This could very well be the agenda of Quiathe in manipulating Daenerys into fighting ice and going to Westeros as well as other rhollor worshippers.

 

Admittedly though it would be annoying for another fantasy/sci-fi series to suggest that whole Yin Yang balance=good thing. It might very much suit where Martins going but it is really cliché.

[Mr Ares]

 

See, if we all assume Jon isn't dead, why have it end in a 4-way-stabbing at all?  Why tease us like that? 

 

 

I have no idea. Maybe he thinks he is more clever than he is?

 

The only reason for cliffhangers is to build hype for the next book. ADWD and AFFC are ALL cliffhangers. On the eve of three major battles and a swath of major and minor characters fates were left hanging precariously in the air. I can only assume that after the 11 year slog through Crows and Dragons that either Martin or the editors felt insecure about continuing interest in the series with the big gaps between publication. Really, the only reason for cliffhangers is to keep people hooked into the series. 

GRRM also tends to end chapters on cliffhangers, and did so before AFFC or ADWD - it seems to simply be a style he's fond of.

[Plato]

@False A permanent summer in Westeros isn't necessarily a bad thing tho.  They've had summers that lasted 10+ years before, and it was hugely prosperous and bountiful.  A never ending one would just be more of the same.  And I doubt GRRM will get into the yin-yang balancing each other out thing.  He's too subtle of an author to ever spell it out like that, and seems more in love with themes dealing with corruption of power, inequality, and revenge. 

 

@Agitel Maybe it's just my personal view getting in the way, but I would be so annoyed if it was the warging bit.  And the other bit about the bleeding star/smoke/tears seems like a stretch for me.  As far as we know, the whole prophecy could be a red herring, and Melisandre a very ineffective red priestess.  Especially considering Morroq is 10x more accurate in his predictions.

[Agitel]

@Agitel Maybe it's just my personal view getting in the way, but I would be so annoyed if it was the warging bit.  And the other bit about the bleeding star/smoke/tears seems like a stretch for me.  As far as we know, the whole prophecy could be a red herring, and Melisandre a very ineffective red priestess.  Especially considering Morroq is 10x more accurate in his predictions.

 

I think Melisandre will see it that way. I'm not sure I'd say that Jon is Azor Ahai. Dany definitely is the strongest fulfillment of that prophecy. Part of me is open to the idea that Azor Ahai is about three people. Both Rhaegar and Maester Aemon insisted that the dragon must have three heads... Aemon said he'd go to Dany himself if he was in better condition. I'm not using the "dragon must have three heads" to say all three people have to marry each other, just that the prophecy is about three people born from Aerys' and Rhaella's line. Dany and Jon make the most sense for two of them... For three...? I don't know. I think Aegon's a red herring, at least as far as prophecy goes. He's jumping into the game too late.

 

Alright, I know I did a lot of speculation there. Back up my argument a bit just back to Jon and Mel resurrecting him. I think she will. And I think she will believe he is Azor Ahai, whether or not he truly is.

[Plato]

 

@Agitel Maybe it's just my personal view getting in the way, but I would be so annoyed if it was the warging bit.  And the other bit about the bleeding star/smoke/tears seems like a stretch for me.  As far as we know, the whole prophecy could be a red herring, and Melisandre a very ineffective red priestess.  Especially considering Morroq is 10x more accurate in his predictions.

 

I think Melisandre will see it that way. I'm not sure I'd say that Jon is Azor Ahai. Dany definitely is the strongest fulfillment of that prophecy. Part of me is open to the idea that Azor Ahai is about three people. Both Rhaegar and Maester Aemon insisted that the dragon must have three heads... Aemon said he'd go to Dany himself if he was in better condition. I'm not using the "dragon must have three heads" to say all three people have to marry each other, just that the prophecy is about three people born from Aerys' and Rhaella's line. Dany and Jon make the most sense for two of them... For three...? I don't know. I think Aegon's a red herring, at least as far as prophecy goes. He's jumping into the game too late.

 

Alright, I know I did a lot of speculation there. Back up my argument a bit just back to Jon and Mel resurrecting him. I think she will. And I think she will believe he is Azor Ahai, whether or not he truly is.

 

That I could live with.  But it would also put Mel is a bad spot with the King's men and the queen.  Esp if Stannis is not really dead.  How quickly people run away when their boss isn't the chosen one anymore...

 

It also makes me wonder what role Tyrion has in this larger plot of fire vs ice...

[False Dragon1991]

I just got banned from a site for saying she wasn't. How is two close friends kissing in a scene where the author notes through her POV that she kisses him back and thinks "his lips are soft" count as rape? Can somebody please explain that one to me? 

[Nolder]

 

“Yes,” she decided. “I’ll do it!” Dany threw back the coverlets and hopped from the bunk. “I’ll see the captain at once, command him to set course for Astapor.” She bent over her chest, threw open the lid, and seized the first garment to hand, a pair of loose sandsilk trousers. “Hand me my medallion belt,” she commanded Jorah as she pulled the sandsilk up over her hips. “And my vest—” she started to say, turning. Ser Jorah slid his arms around her.

 

“Oh,” was all Dany had time to say as he pulled her close and pressed his lips down on hers. He smelled of sweat and salt and leather, and the iron studs on his jerkin dug into her naked breasts as he crushed her hard against him. One hand held her by the shoulder while the other slid down her spine to the small of her back, and her mouth opened for his tongue, though she never told it to. His beard is scratchy, she thought, but his mouth is sweet. The Dothraki wore no beards, only long mustaches, and only Khal Drogo had ever kissed her before. He should not be doing this. I am his queen, not his woman.

 

It was a long kiss, though how long Dany could not have said. When it ended, Ser Jorah let go of her, and she took a quick step backward. “You . . . you should not have . . .” “I should not have waited so long,” he finished for her. “I should have kissed you in Qarth, in Vaes Tolorru. I should have kissed you in the red waste, every night and every day. You were made to be kissed, often and well.” His eyes were on her breasts.

 

“I should not have waited so long,” he finished for her. “I should have kissed you in Qarth, in Vaes Tolorru. I should have kissed you in the red waste, every night and every day. You were made to be kissed, often and well.” His eyes were on her breasts. Dany covered them with her hands, before her nipples could betray her. “I . . . that was not fitting. I am your queen.”

 

Whatever site you were on is filled with crazies. This was clearly not rape. 

It was an advance that was enjoyed for what it was and then denied, nothing more.

[False Dragon1991]

No, really. For the last year on that board any mention of Jorah involves people saying "he forced himself upon her". Nobody has ever objected to those terms being used even though they apparently mean rape and there is nothing in the text to suggest that. An unasked for but enjoyed advance (which I assumed was what these posters had to be referring to in derogatory language) since theres no suggestion of rape in the text but apparently people on that site don't feel the same way.

 

So we're talking about whether Dany should hold Jorahs jealousy, his kiss and the tension between them against him at the end of ASOS; n I said she shouldn't because its only supposed to be about his spying. Apparently this makes everyone leap up say "you're defending rape" because obviously the natural assumption everyone on that board has made is Jorah forced himself on Dany and raped her; therefore saying Dany shouldn't have held that kiss against him is rape.

 

Now any sensible moderator would know that the suggestion that Dany is raped is trolling. Would read the comments and see that I was referring to the tension which develops as a result of this event and Jorahs jealousy in ASOS. Would know that I consider the idea that Jorah raped Dany a non-opinion not worthy of a response or acknowledgement. But no, apparently, thats the common assumption on that website and the first thing they read into my words is defending rape.

 

Unfortunately I can't complain to the moderators until my account is restored in 2 weeks time. But I am not standing for that accusation being thrown down. 

[Plato]

You forced your opinion on that forum?!  You rapist!

[Apoc81]

Only an complete fool would call that rape. How could anyone who enjoys Ice and Fire be offended by something as simple as Jorah kissing Dany is beyond me, but it does not sound like any forum I would want to be a part of.

I thought the anger at Brandon Sanderson here was completely unfounded and made this forum a toxic environment. But at least they don't ban people here for sharing an opinion that is not only correct, but to believe otherwise would be completely foolish. When I saw the title of this thread, I thought, "Wait, i've been reading the series since '96, with at least 4 rereads, what did I miss?". I didnt miss anything though, and you are 100% correct. No way I would go back to that forum.

[Pralaya]

Haha, first world fantasy problems

[csarmi]

OKAY, so is it appropriate to post a thread with huge spoilers in title?