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A Song of Fire & Ice Book Discussion Thread (Up To Dance With Dragons)

Guest Karana Majin

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Guest Karana Majin

Well, since GRRM is far ahead in the polls, I'm starting this book discussion thread for him. Some possible points to discuss when looking at this work, and please understand there may be spoilers if you are not current on the latest book...


  • - The Others... where did they come from? How are they created/born?
    - Who is your favorite character and why?
    - Has your perception of certain characters changed over time?
    - Who do you despise??
    - Who is the Prince Who Was Promised?
    - Are the Gods of the North weakening? Is R'hllor truly gaining power? Is that related to dragons being in the world? What about the Drowned God?
    - Will Arya lose herself after all? Or is hiding Needle a sign?


Etc. Please don't feel constrained to these topics only! I will be posting my opinions in a bit.



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The Others: They're like the green men. They're just a part of the world. Here's an interesting thought: Both the Others (ice) and the dragons (fire) are reappearing right around the same time.


My favorite character is Arya, mainly because she's so independent. She does what she says she will and she does it well. She's a well-developed character.


I despise Cersei. She's a manipulative ass.


The Prince Who Was Promised: I don't remember that detail. It's been a while. Can you refresh my memory?


I've always been interested in how many religions exist in Westeros and the surrounding areas. I think a god's power in this land is related to how strong its following is. For example, as the Northmen die off or move South, where there are no face trees, the Northern gods lose power.


I think Needle will act as a handy reminder to Arya that, even after she becomes Faceless, she still has an underlying goal to achieve back in Westeros.

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Guest Karana Majin

I'll have to look up the Prince who Was Promised references and get back to you, I don't want to tell you incorrectly.


Now, the Others... why are they back all the sudden? Because a long winter is coming? I don't know, they're just SO creepy. Were they ever NOT there? The wildlings seem to know about them are they always around north of the Wall? I just don't know, but I love reading about them, I get chills up my spine, the sudden cold, the silence. Ahhh!


I have two favorite characters, Arya and Tyrion. Arya, because she is such a survivor, she adapts and fits in anywhere, which is why she will be a great Faceless Man. Tyrion, because he is just so flawed... he wants to be loved so much, which I think EVERYONE can identify with. However, the people most important in his life don't show him this love and it's heartbreaking. I cheered when he killed his father. I couldn't stand Tywin, he abused Tyrion mentally for years and completely corrupted the twins. Oh, and I love the Onion Knight!!


I despise Stannis. There are parallels to him and Galad from WoT, those unbending men who will always do right no matter whom it hurts. I don't like that inflexibility. There are always extenuating circumstances and compromises to be made.


Sansa used to get on my nerves like no one's business, but she has grown under Littlefinger's tutelage and I think she is becoming more complex and interesting.


I think GRRM's characterization is perhaps the best in fantasy today, his characters grown and change in ways that you can see. He SHOWS you, he doesn't tell you. Often when authors just tell you something about a character, it feels flat and dimensionless, but when their actions show that quality, it's stunning.

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I think that the Prince who was Promised might not be a Prince at all. Everyone assumes that it is a prince in Westeros since they are so hellbent on a patriarchy. But in the last two books there are so many hints to a matriarchy being more powerful or wanted.


There might be spoilers ahead for those who have not read the last book btw.


- Hints that Myrcella is a better ruler than Tommen and has more right to the throne, plus the plot to put Myrcella on the throne.

- Arianne of Dorne who clearly feels that it should not matter whether a man or a woman rules, and that it only matters who is eldest

- Hints to a Targaryen princess who was almost put on the throne but which was thwarted by that guy they call the Kingmaker - and whose actions started the Dance of Dragons

- Asha who feels she is the reightful heir to the Seastone Chair

- Cersei who yearns for ruling and clearly does so as regent until she is thwarted by the High Septon

- And Dany of course. That is why I think she is the Promised One.


I mean, all these plots to put women on the throne have been thwarted by men. It is high time a woman does step in and takes over. Who better than Dany?


Everyone who is against the Lannisters now is searching for Dany. Maester Aegon was sure that she is the promised one. Victarion is looking for her now, and so is Dorne. Even that creepy Maester/mage is looking for her. I hope she will be able to stand on her own two feet and do what she wants to do instead of being lead.



I am not sure whom I despise within the books. I am intrigued by Cersei and her complete paranoia, and Stannis is, like Karana said, such a inflexible prick that I can sometimes just shoot him, but despise? Not really. I despised Tywin I think, so I cheered mightily when Tyrion killed him (and especially how. Hah!) Lord Tywin, in the end, did not shit gold. Priceless! (euh, apparently you cannot say the S word here, but I guess everyone knows what it should be)



My favorite character - difficult to say. I love to read about Dany, but also about Jaime and Arya. Jon is interesting too, though it is a pity he's so frickin dutiful. Oh, and I like Sam. He's growing. Me likes.



At first I thought that Jaime was the personified evil. But now that we know so much more about his background, and what made him do the things he did, and still does, he's become so much more three dimensional. I wonder what will happen with him and Brienne. Would be a lovely hoot if they ended up together somehow. Oh, how I would love to see Cersei's face then!



pfff so much to say about this series ... will continue another time.

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*****Warning! If you have not read through A Feast for Crows this will be FULL of spoilers******


I'd have to agree that I think they got it wrong with "the prince who was promised", it's totally going to be Dany. What I want to have happen is everyone kill each other off, and then Dany arrives with her army, and doesn't have to do anything but walk right up to the throne and take it. I'm not saying she's the best ruler, but NOBODY else is qualified.


When it comes to favorite characters I really can't pick. I love most of them. I do hate Joffery, that kid was a punk and he needed to be killed a LOT sooner. Anybody who beats up Sansa needs to die right away. I'm totally in love with Sansa, and I really want her to kill everyone: Littlefinger especially. I like Cersei, she's a royal bitch, but I feel so bad for her, and the male dominance in Westroes is overbearing so I like that she combats it (even though she's now lost). I LOVE Jamie, ever since we got his chapters he's become my favorite character, and he just becomes a nicer guy in each installment. I like Tyrion, who doesn't? I love Jon Snow, I can't wait to read about him in Dance of Dragons. Araya rules! Bran is one of my all time favorite characters, even though GRRM hates him. Asha is beautiful and brillent. Catelyn Stark I always felt bad for, though now she's totally insane, I still feel for her.


I REALLY don't see Breinne and Jammie get together though, Lyanna. Breinne was hanged at the end of A Feast of Crows, and even IF they brought her back to life (which doesn't seem likely since the one guy who can do that sort of thing was on the side of those who killed her) I don't think Jamie would go for it.


What I love most about the books is the backstabbing, and how NONE of your characters are safe. I can't wait to see the Onion Knight get beheaded in Dance of Dragons (which we know will happen since it did in A Feast of Crows), and to find out where in God's name Tyrion is hiding. That still drives me crazy.

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Guest Winespring Brother

You can find out where Tyrion is hiding by reading the chapter excerpts from the next book. I don't want to post it here what he is up to becuase lots of you guys may not know, and all spoilers are bad, pronounces WB, who is wise in all things :wink:

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Hurrah! Someone else who loves Sansa. *grins*


**I may accidentally spoil something from AFFC so if you haven't read it I wouldn't advise reading what I have to say**


I can't think of a single PoV I dislike reading. I find that Davos' can occasionally get a little uneventful but he's still a very interesting character. I admire his dedication to Stannis; he's very loyal and you can respect that.


I love reading Cersei's PoV. She's an evil evil *insert expletive here* but I love the fact her PoVs can show a little bit of why. She really does love her children but she hasn't got a clue what's she getting into.


Sansa is one of my favourite characters. There's something about her I really like. Maybe it's the whole little girl niavety thing she's got going on. I was always a girly girl when I was her age and I can totally emphatise with the whole irritating sibling thing. A sister like Arya would drive me mental.


But I love Arya. She's so cool. I REALLY hope she becomes a faceless man and gets to finish off her list :twisted: I think her relationship with Jon is really interesting. I loved all the stuff with her and Gendry.


I like Jon too. He is definately one of the more... mysterious characters. I can't wait to find out about his past and who his parents were. My money is still on Rhaegar and Lyanna :)


The Hound was probably my favourite non PoV character. His... demise seriously may have broken my heart. I had such hope for him. *sad face* I do love GRRM ALOT but I really wish he wouldn't kill of all his characters. Knowing our luck the last line of Book Seven will be "And the last Dragon sat their munching the bone of the very last human in Westeros" ;)


Actually have you seen he's announced in his LJ the actual name for book seven. Its going to be called "A Dream of Spring" as opposed to "A time for wolves". I was a little bit unsure about it at first but now I really like it. I think it'll sum up the end of the series.


Anyway, I'm so glad this thread was set up. *snuggles*

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I really liked the title "A Time for Wolves" because it gives me hope that at least one Stark will survive untill the seventh book. But "A Dream of Spring" fits better with the overall flow of the series.


I also have to add that I too really want Arya to kill, or find out the deat of, all the people on her list.

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I'm not really much for book discussions, but I decided to answer a few.


I'm not really sure on a favorite character, but I think right now it would be Arya. Though I'm sad that she seems to have been made blind at the end of the latest book. :( I mean, give the poor girl a break... she's been through so much! lol... I've started to like Jaime a little too. As someone mentioned, you get to see why he's done what he's done and he's become much more "three dimensional."


For the Prince Who was Promised, I also believe it is Dany (so not a Prince.)


I despise Cersei. I just can't stand women like her, lol. I'm glad she seems to finally be getting some payback.

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Guest Majsju

It's hard to pick just one favourite, I have quite a few, Dany, Jon Snow, Arya, Tyrion...I want to like Bran more as well, but find it a little bit hard to really get into his character.

I also like the way Jaime has developed.


And you don't want to get too attached to anyone, since it's always possible they will get killed next page :lol:


The Prince that was promised...I'm not sure what to think of that. But I want to think that it might be Jon Snow, since it remains unknown so far who his parents actually are.


The Others, I think they are intimatly tied to winter, somehow. Hopefully we will learn more in ADWD, when Martin takes us back to the north.

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Finally...a ASOIAF thread! :D


let me jump right in. I most definitely wish for Cersei to get what she deserves, which is some sort of torture followed by complete public humiliation, culminating in an execution.(although unfortunately most of that won't happen)


My favorite characters are Arya, Jon, and Daenerys, especially now that Arya's got some kick-ass assassin training.


The Prince that was Promised is almost definitely Jon Snow(if its not i'll tear my hair out), since his parents are Rhaegar Targaryen and Lyanna Stark. A Song of Ice and Fire=Fire+Ice=Targaryen(Fire)+Stark(Ice)=Jon Snow(PTWP),or at least someone critical to Westeros.


The Others, like someone mentioned above, are simply a part of the world, likely something to do with balance. The Others reappear, and awhile later, dragons are born for the first time in over a century

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I realised this morning I had completely forgotten to mention Tyrion in my post- how callous of me!! lol And Dany too! I enjoy both their PoV's alot but ecspecially Tyrion. I love his sense of human and was SO glad when his Daddy got killed. *smug grin*


I like Dany and she definately a very central character. I also believe she is the Prince who was promised based on evidence from AFFC. Though I think I'd rather it was John. But who knows? With GRRM all we can do is speculate, speculate, speculate. :wink:

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Man, I really must not read the deep meaning in things because I've always believed that Ned was Jon's father, so never doubted it. But I suppose that other theory could be true for Jon being the Prince... hrmmm.

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Yeah, Lord Bloodraven, your theory has definately sparked my curiousity. I always figured Eddard was the father, but your theory actually makes a whole lot more since. Wow.... I'm going to have to think about that one.

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Guest Karana Majin

*goggles* It's pretty much accepted fact that Rhaegar and Lyanna are Jon's parents. Rhaegar loved the Wolf Maid, and that's why Robert killed him. Robert thought he had raped or dishonored her...


Who doesn't love Tyrion?? He just... rocks.

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*goggles* It's pretty much accepted fact that Rhaegar and Lyanna are Jon's parents. Rhaegar loved the Wolf Maid' date=' and that's why Robert killed him. Robert thought he had raped or dishonored her...


Who doesn't love Tyrion?? He just... rocks.[/quote']


See, that's what I mean that I don't read deep into things...lol. It wasn't obvious to me. I never got that Rhaegar loved her. I didn't think he raped her, but I didn't think there was anything deep bewteen them. And to me there doesn't seem that much written about either one of them, or I'm missing something, lol. I did wonder why Ned would sleep with another woman. He doesn't seem like that kind of guy at all, but I didn't think too much about it. I guess I should have, because that does really make sense since Jon's mother has been made such a mystery. Though, I guess I would need to go back and figure out how she had a baby without anyone knowing (except for Ned I guess).


I just read and enjoy books. I don't get into the theory stuff much. At least I don't with WoT, but I like these books better, so I admit, it is more interesting to hear the theories.

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I knew that Rhaegar wanted Lyanna, and I'm pretty sure that he raped her. I just never figured Jon Snow came out of it. I guess I'm just slow on the up take even after reading the series twice. :?


And it's true that Tyrion does just rock. I really missed him in A Feast for Crows, but it was almost better without him there. Because you didn't know where he went or what he was up to, it made Cersei's madness even more satisfying.

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On a completely random tangent, I want to start a petition to bring Ned Stark back from the dead. Not like one of the Others, but some sort of magic handwaving "A ha! One of the magic face-changing assassins took his place at the last minute, and he's really alive somewhere!" twist. Or even just "Look, dragons bring people back from the grave!" thing. *grins*



Ben T-Gaidin

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Ned Stark's death is what completely drew me into the series. I mean, I'd never encountered a writer before who threatened to kill one of his main characters and then proceeded to go actually through with it. I was staring at that page thinking "But.. but .. but ... that was a main character!!!"


What are your most precious moments in the books? For me, a couple stand out.


- Littlefinger pushing Lysa Arryn through the Moondoor. Yet another instance where I hadn't expected him to actually do it. I must say I laughed my head off at that one - cripes that woman deserved it.

- Joffrey's wedding. I keep rereading it to find out who actually put one of the amethysts in Joff's wine. I mean, I know that Lady Olenna pinched one out of Sansa's hairnet. But who put it in there? Margaery herself maybe?

- Arya seemingly getting the axe in her head when she wants to run away from Sandor Clegane. For a second there I really thought Martin had killed her too since he was on such a spree at the Red Wedding

- Ned's death on the stairs of the Sept of Baelor .. his twitching legs ... eww!

- Jaime meeting Cersei in the sept after Joffrey has been killed. I mean, really ... humping on the altar with her dead son next to her. Yikes.

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Knowing our luck the last line of Book Seven will be "And the last Dragon sat their munching the bone of the very last human in Westeros"


Niamh, you forgot to mention that the last dragon chokes to death on the last bone of the last human and flops over dead. :D


My least favorite characters would be Sansa(though she is getting better), Lysa(Thank God she's dead and why the hell was she breast feeding a friggin boy that old *shudder shudder puke faint*), her son(now if only he'd die, too), Joffrey(yay, he's dead), Catelyn(intolerant stiff necked fool), and Sam sometimes gets on my nerves though I generally like him.


My favorite character of all was Sandor Clegane. There was such promise in him for a hero and then Martin up and kills him off. :x I like Jon Snow of course and Arya. I generally like Dany, but her actions have not been the wisest. It was a small part he played, but I liked the Scorpion Prince as well.


Cersei's imprisonment has to be my favorite moment. She just can't believe it happened to her of all people. I also love her name. The mythological character was known for turning men into real pigs and Martin's version just turns them into metaphorical pigs. It's great.


Anyhoos, I might write more later, but I'm out of time for now.

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Ah, I forgot about Bran! I've liked him from the beginning. It's really a shame Martin wrote so few chapters about him, but I suppose he did spend a lot of time traveling north and hiding out, didn't he? I thought he'd be full of knowledge and wisdom after he woke up from the fall, but I was disappointed that he took the crow's promise of flight literally.


Like some others, I also didn't pick up on the Rheagar-Lyanna connection until I started reading theories online after I read book 3, and then it all made sense. Ned's constant assurance that Jon was his blood suddenly took on new meaning.

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I'm only on my second read through so don't know all that much detail just yet but a few of my thoughts


Favorite character Arya. Nuff said! Ok then a bit more. Her story line is well interesting and that she has managed to survive in a warzone whilst being only a kid on her own for a lot says a lot. Also that she never gave up on wanting to be free. Disappointed at how little time she got in AFFC but those were great chapters.


Least favorite character Sansa. Just really wanted to give her a slap and say "grow up you stupid..." Seems like the stuck up little noblewoman really concerned about arya making friends with commoners etc. Irritated the hell out of me. But still a good read!


My opinions of characters has changed over time, but that's partly because the characters have changed. Sansa has started growing up since she went under littlefinger's wing, and Jon Snow seems (from the little we've heard) to have turned into a right tough little git since his promotion. Having just seen the godfather it occurs to me he is a little like Al Pacino in that. Or like Rand in WOT I suppose! Cat did seem to change into someone more and more bitter as the series has gone on. Looking at Jaime however, knowing more about him has made me see him in a good light (although anyone who kills a king can't be all bad :wink:)


Short concentration span kicking in now (plus I'm also posting on another website) so i'll be back...

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My Favorite Character so far is Arya. I love the last part of her POV in AFFC.

"Who killed him?"

"Arya Stark of winterfell."

"Who are you?"

"No one."


Now her blindness training begins. If you remember the other apprentice that was lighting the candles while blind. It seems to me her blindness will be part of her training.


I like Jon and Tyrion.


I started liking Jamie but just could not get past his tossing a 9 year old out the window for the EVIL FEMALE DOG!!!! edit* My typing skills are so rusty these days!

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What I love with Jamie is that you want to like him but you have all these lingering doubts about his calibre. But the end of AFFC completely clinched it for me.


He's awesome. :wink:

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But then you get this appreciation for Jamie and why it is he did throw Bran out of the window, and you also see how much he regrets doing it. He didn't do it paralyze the boy, he did it to kill him because his sister would have done worse.


I really don't think that Arya will remain blind, it's some part of giving up everything to achieve more. She will gain her sight back, and not even need to use it anymore.


Again I love Sansa. I admit that there were times in my first reading where I just wanted to kill her (like when she gets Lady killed by lying about what happened in the woods), but I've come to completely appreciate where she's coming from, and now I think she's one of the most powerful women in the story. I certainly don't want her to be used or killed (and definately not raped) throughout the series. Which is asking a LOT knowing George. She'll probably be killed in "The Red Wedding Part 2: This time they drink the blood" Coming to theaters this Winter. :(

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