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Guest Karana Majin

A Song of Fire & Ice Book Discussion Thread (Up To Dance With Dragons)

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I bet that GRRM will leave us hanging until the very end when all the characters fall through a hole in the ground into a pool of moleten lava. LOL ;)(And then the Dragon will choke on its bone...)

 

I love Sansa. I can't wait to see what she does next. I think that in some respects GRRM wants you to disregard her as this stupid little girl but she can't be that forever. All the other characters seemed quite strong from the offset but Sansa didn't because she was so niave in many repsects (Arya is a little bit more pragmatic). She's been prepared to be this perfect little delicate lady. But I think she's going to go away from that and really mature as a character. Even by the end of GoT she was alot stronger. She's going to be a key player in the future books (Unless a big rock falls on her head... *le sigh*)

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haven't read the rest of the post just incase there are spoilers but given everyone here just loves this series tried to buy the first one last night and the bookshop didn't have it!

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My favorite characters are quite a few for different reasons.

 

Rhaegar = how he is explained and hes deepness, how everyone thought he would be a philosopher before his sudden change to become a warrior.

 

Tyrion = his sense of humor, and how his feats are underappreciated by everyone, makes him the sympathetic underdog

 

Tywin = Yes, thats right Tywin. I think he can be a big ***munch at times, but he is a genius and very intelligent. He manages to outrick the forces of the North more then once, he makes it appear as if he was losing and hopeless, and then completely catches the enemy offguard. Or how he always does unaticipated moves, so his enemies have to guess what his next move is. His only drawback is that he is ruthless in achieving his standing as the Ruler, and he is very prideful. For example his ruthlessness is clearly described, in how he wanted to draw the Northernmen under the behest of the elder Stark boy, further South by ruthlessly sending Gregor Clegane to completely massacre as many villagers as possible to force the Northernmen and Rivermen to either sit helplessly and watch or march down and stop it, but therefore falling into his trap. The guy has my respect, but his pride, and how he always scorned his youngest son Tyrion for damaging Lannister pride for being a Dwarf, also brought his downfall.

 

Stannis - He is a man of Virtue. And he will always fight for justice, and deal it. Best seen with the example of the Onion knight, who gets rewarded and punished for being a smuggler. I see a few more things we should expect from him in the future.

 

 

 

People I couldn't stand:

 

Arya - She is cute and funny to read sometimes, but can get annoying after a while, with her constant tiddling about her list and whatnot.

 

Renly - What kind of a brother usurps his Elder brothers birthright, knowing full well that this will cause civil war. Plus he is a cocky, chauvinistic, playboy type.

 

Joffrey - Just the name should suffice.

 

 

 

I also think Jon is the promised Prince, if he is truly the Son of Rhaegar, he has the best claim on the throne, and will probably save the world and win it in the end and be crowned, as a Targaryen.......maybe marrying Dany in good ol Targaryen tradition.

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"I also think Jon is the promised Prince, if he is truly the Son of Rhaegar, he has the best claim on the throne, and will probably save the world and win it in the end and be crowned, as a Targaryen.......maybe marrying Dany in good ol Targaryen tradition."

 

Yeah, now that I know that thoery, I could see them getting married.

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Renley was not the playboy type if that is how you saw him. He was gay. That is why no one thought his wife lost her virginity their wedding night. Thus the scandal over her virginity loss in AFFC. Her brother Loras was who Renley went for.

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OH MY GOD!!! Why am I retarded?! How did I not see that Renley was gay! That makes PERFECT SENSE!!! See this is why we needed this thread, so I could figure out all the simple things about the books that I was too dumb to figure out after two reads.

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Just so you know that was not my original thought in reading it either. One of the GRRM forums brought that up aand click the light came on. They started quoting passages (which I dont have in front of me) from the books showing how Margery could not have lost her virginity to him. They were subtle remarks about him and Loras, you know, "The Knight of Flowers," the Rainbow colored cloaks for his guards, Loras freaking out when he was killed, etc. Stannis even mentions something that could be taken as Renly being gay.

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Just so you know that was not my original thought in reading it either. One of the GRRM forums brought that up aand click the light came on. They started quoting passages (which I dont have in front of me) from the books showing how Margery could not have lost her virginity to him. They were subtle remarks about him and Loras' date=' you know, "The Knight of Flowers," the Rainbow colored cloaks for his guards, Loras freaking out when he was killed, etc. Stannis even mentions something that could be taken as Renly being gay.[/quote']

 

Yeah, I didn't see it at first, but later on I remember seeing some of those passages... lol. I think a characater even said something right out about it which might have been Stannis's comment you're referring to. I'd have to search for it.

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One thing doesn't make sense, why does Stannis make such a huge deal then, with Renly being a homosexual he is hardly going to sire any children, that was the problem with all homosexual regents, the line usually ends with them, and has to be passed onto a nephew or brother (i.e Stannis and his children).

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Guest Majsju

Well, being gay doesn't mean you're incapable of getting kids, just that the act won't give you very much pleasure.

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Guest Karana Majin

But Maergery and Loras look enough alike to be twins... surely he could have fooled himself after some wine?

 

Yeah, I didn't pick up on Renly and Loras the first read through, but I've read the series 4 times now and it seems obvious. But so do a lot of other things.

 

What about Brienne? The Maid of Tarth. How do people feel about her?

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I always loved her and

 

***spoiler****

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I'm saddened she got killed. She deserved better... like getting Jamie.

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Guest Karana Majin

Ah, but is getting Jamie better? That's arguable. And is she truly dead?? Also arguable.

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I know Martin has no trouble killing or crippling characters, but I'm not so sure Brienne is dead yet, either. At least I hope not. I like her for the most part. Reminds me a bit of a Blue Aes Sedai. She's very dedicated to whatever cause she has at the moment... like when she was a guard for Renly, or searching for Sansa and Arya. I think she's pretty strong in heart and mind considering the crap she's had to take from people... mainly her father and men.

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She is dead, period. Martin is not so apprehensive like Jordan. He kills of one of the main characters, Ned Stark right near the beginning, also kills Rob his eldest son and who was a main character for a while. Which is why I like his books, you never know what to expect. With Jordan you kind of know no matter what the odds, Nynaeve or Elayne or Perrin will always survive it. With Martin the only character that was deemed dead and survived was Bran, but he was also crippled by being flung off the roof.

So knowing Martin, I'd say anyone who believes Brienne is not dead has to have some very strong convictions or false hopes. But then again you never know, bt I really doubt it.

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yeah she'd dead. She's descesed. She is no more. She's a goner. She's pushing up the daisies. Unless they bring her back as an other, like they did Cat, her body is going to rot on that tree for the rest of eternity.

 

She has no reason to continue living. Her plot line is over. She has nothing more to do. She's obviously never going to find Sansa nor get together with Jamie. Sansa's going to marry that other guy and lead an army to take back Winterfell. Brienne has nothing to do with that. So she's gone.

 

I would argue that ending up with Jamie would have been a much better ending than being hanged from a tree by your ex-Queen. Jamie obviously had feelings for her, and she recipricated those feelings. It was unlikely that they would end up together, but they would have (and still do) hold a certain respect and trust for one another. That's why Brienne could not do as Cat asked.

 

But yeah, this is George R.R. Martin not Robert Jordan, Brienne is dead, and she is not coming back.

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Question, who do you think will kill Cersei in the end?

She's visited the Maegi, and she told Cerei that she will have three children, each of whom will die before her. Well, Joff is already dead, Myrcella is maimed and Tommen is still alive, but there is no doubt in my mind that we will see both Tommen and Myrcella die before long.

 

I was wondering though, the Maegi tells Cersei that after she's dried up her tears about her dead children, the valonquar will choke her life out of her.

 

We know that Valonquar means brother, so at first I thought either Jaime or Tyrion would kill her. I placed my bets on Jaime, cause Tyrion's and Cersei's mutual hatred is put on so thickly that it seems not to be in GRRM's nature to have Tyrion kill Cersei - it would be too convenient and easy.

 

Then I noticed the prophecy said THE Valonquar, not YOUR Valonquar. So it could be anyone's brother really, I think. Who would it be? Bran, or Rickon, as Robb's brothers? Or Loras should he survive, as Maergery's brother?

 

Valonquar is a high Valyrian word however. What if the heritage of Jon is right, and he is son to Lyanna and Rhaegar? He'd have the blood of old Valyria in his blood and he would be a half-brother to the two kids that were killed along with Elia of Dorne. Do you think Jon would be the Valonquar who kills Cersei??

 

(oh, and by the way, I don't think Brienne is dead. GRRM had always been quite obvious about killing his chars yes, and there were always other POV's confirming that the char was dead. For instance, with Ned it was Arya, for Robb it was Catelyn. For Renly it was Catelyn and Brienne. Catelyn was never really confirmed dead though and there were no other POV's actually seeing her death, and she reappeared (don't ask how though). Same went for Arya, with the axe in the back of the head incident - it looked as if she were dead, but she wasn't. Same goes for Brienne. They hang her, the light goes out. And that is it. No other POV's confirming her dead. So no, I don't believe she is dead. I believe she has a part to play yet. Why maim her even worse if you are gonna have her die not long after? Nuhuh, I don't believe it, GRRM has plans with her.)

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New Question:

 

What does everyone see of Rhaegar? Everyone in the Kingdom still swoons over him, except Robert who sees him in a less then favorable light.

But then comes the question. Selmy and many honorable knights and people of the past speak of Rhaegar as if he were the greatest person to have ever lived even though he was yet just into his manhood.

What are your thoughts on Rhaegar?

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Cersei... hmmm... I really hope Jamie kills her. I think it would be the perfect end for her. But as it says THE Valoquar... That presents all sorts of interesting possibilities. I'm sure there is a reference to "The Brother" somewhere in the series. I need to read it again really.

 

I don't think Brienne is dead. I don't think there is enough evidence for her death yet. But we'll have to wait and see. I didn't believe the Hound was dead either but alas... he is :(

 

Rhaegar is a complete enigma. I can't wait to see what else we find out about him. There is a big mystery surrounding him in my opinion which is central to the plot in my opinion.

 

Bring on ADwD!! :D

 

NB: http://fifthsorceress.tripod.com/crackpot.htm

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Alright, I found a SIGNED FIRST EDITION copy of A Game of Thrones, for just $25. I would get it immediately but it's missing it's dust jacket, the inside cover where the map is is ripped in a few spots, and the binding is shotty. But at the same time it's a SIGNED FIRST EDITION COPY!!!! So, do you think I should buy it, or try to find a better copy somewhere else? Because I could easily get a copy signed by him at his next tour, but this is one hell of a find. I don't know.

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Guest Karana Majin

I would totally buy it. But that's just me. A signed copy on the next tour, won't be a signed copy of the first edition of the first book of this masterpiece series.

 

As to Raeghar, I don't know why, but he's always kind of bored me. I just sort of whatever all the references to him. Other than that I believe he is Jon's father and that will make things... interesting. But who could know that, anymore? With Ned dead, who else could possibly know?

 

I also subscribe to the Brienne is not dead camp. I think whatever she yelled as she was being hung was something intriguing enough to have them cut her down.

 

Also, valonqhar means "little brother" not just brother. Which is why she thinks it is Tyrion. But Jaime is also her little brother, by about 5 minutes.

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Also' date=' valonqhar means "little brother" not just brother. Which is why she thinks it is Tyrion. But Jaime is also her little brother, by about 5 minutes.[/quote']

 

Yeah, I knew Jaime was the younger, so that's along the lines I was thinking for that because Tyrion seems too obvious.

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I've almost finished AFFC after i had reread all his books. I never saw the hints about Jon being Rhaegar's son, but it makes sence. But i have a theory, All through the books when Dany is about or just before (the blind master of the watch) dies he mumbles something about a dragon needs 3 heads. Dany mentions this as well countless times. She is one granted, now Jon is another whom will be the 3rd? :)

 

I think the 3rd is someone who everyone thought is/was dead. GRRM said someone is coming back from the "dead" either in the next book or the final book. My guess Rhargar, let me explain.

 

When Beainne was traveling with the holy man with Dog they came to Quiet Isle (can't recall exact name) They were met by the High Septon guy who once fought with Rhargar but gave up the sword for a life of Holy service. Rhaegar was a scholar before taking up the sword. He's five and forty, close to the same age. He washed up on shore naked with wounds. Whos to say Rhaegar didnt fall into the sea after being beaten by Robert? I dont recall GRRM ever saying that his corpse was torn apart or burnt. Theres kind of a void there IMO.

And if he did fall into the sea, the Red Woman (stanis's witch) prophesised that the king would rise from the sea.

 

I dont have my books next to me so these many not be exact quotes, just my recollection.

 

oh and Favorite, Bran. He rocks.... although i didnt know GRRM hated him.

 

Least..... all the Ironmen including Asha. Dany should melt those isle's to Slag!

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