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Dagon Thyne

Am I the only one who is pissed over the anticlimactic end to Fain's story?

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Fain was a central villain for much of the series.  He tormented the main characters, in many ways.  He was not only against the main characters, but against the Dark One as well.  He was being pushed as a villain among villains, and his mediocre ending was a complete letdown. 

 

What the hell happened?  Did RJ just not have time to come up with a good ending before he died?  Did BJ have to make one up at the last minute?

 

 

 

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A lot of people agree with you.  Tbh, I had kind of forgotten Fain and wasn't that fussed what happened to him.  Even so, I found it bizarre how he just popped up for two pages before being killed.  Some people have suggested it would have been better for Fain to be killed after injuring Rand in the rebels camp outside Cairhien (I think in ACoS).  

 

Its quite possible RJ didn't leave any notes on what was to happen to Fain, or no notes beyond that he was to die.  There was very little in the way of notes for AMoL.  

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No, you are not.

 

I don't think that the ending with Fain is very different than what RJ had intended though.  I do think that Brandon wrote it so poorly that it felt like it was just dropped in as an after thought though.  In an RJ book, I feel like Fain would have received relatively little screen time but it would have been epic and grand all the same.  Fain would have died as an inconsequential loser, but during the moments leading up to his death he would have been a big deal.

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I kinda thought the ending fit actually, if not fleshed out enough.

 

Fain had spent the whole series planning on tormenting and destroying the three, Rand in particular. What were his acheivements? Got Rand to Toman Head where he didn't even see him. Brought Trollocs and Whiteclocks to the Two Rivers - yes dealt a great deal of blood and destruction but that didn't end as a win for Fain. Scratched Rand with his dagger, giving him a clue how to clean saidin.

 

He was someone Rand thought about 'dealing with' but had other priorities. Fain thought he was a serious threat, but everyone else put him to the back of their minds a bit, so it was quite fitting that it was Mat - who hasn't interacted with him since the Eye of the World I think- that killed him.

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He was someone Rand thought about 'dealing with' but had other priorities. Fain thought he was a serious threat, but everyone else put him to the back of their minds a bit, so it was quite fitting that it was Mat - who hasn't interacted with him since the Eye of the World I think- that killed him.

 

The problem with this line of thinking is the way Fain was handld by the author. If that was the case why even build him up with evolving powers and end him with a cliff hanger in ToM, if you are only going to kill him off with two pages of screen time in AMoL? It's poorly set up and feels very rushed.

Edited by Suttree

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You're right, it does feel like he was meant to do 'something' near the end, more than he did. Like a few of his scenes are missing.

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It's a perfect ending for a character who's been an afterthought for most of the series.

That doesn't really address the issues with how it was set up however. If it was a "perfect ending" care to break down how and  why in relation to the cliffhanger and increased powers we saw in ToM? I know you have tired of the critique around here but I just can't believe you truly think this was handled well.

Edited by Suttree

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I'm not sure I can defend whether it was handled well or not, I agree it was a shame that it didn't develop, but honestly, Fain was never a big deal for me, so it's not something I care about. 

 

(At the risk of losing access to DM, I didn't care that much about Bela either - although that particular scene, and the Olver sections were good (and am now feeling stupid that I'm only now picking up the Oliver reference))

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In a lot of ways, at least in my mind, Bela symbolized Egwene.  When Bela died it really felt like that was the final proof that Egwene was really dead...whereas when Egwene died it didn't really hit any emotional chord at all.  Kind of a "I guess she's not going to make it home after all..." type of thing.

Edited by Mark D

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It would have been nice to see fain have some sort of impact toward the end either against rand or even against the dark one, as he hated him too.  alas, fain went the way of machin shin...a character with a lot of potential to mess with the plot that faded away to irrelivence

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For me Fain for me was a secondary if not tertiary character. A raving lunatic who felt he was "bigger" than he really was. It did not bother me one bit the way he died.

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The problem was not how he died...the problem was the utterly horrible way it was wrapped up in the books.  It felt like "oh crap, forgot Fain...hold on TOR let me fix this I'll send you the final draft in an hour."

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Fain/Mord served his purpose in shaping all 3 of the boys to become what they needed to be.

 

He was the wildcard right from the beginning, forced each of the boys past what they might have been in past tellings of the Wheel.

He was integral to each of their development.

 

 

His part was played by the end and served no other purpose in the story.

 

Granted, I still think it would have been more poetic if Perrin was the one who killed him but Mat finishing him makes sense as well and there was some foreshadowing of it very early.

 

 

And seriously @Mark D, does every single bloody post of yours have to be a slam against the writing and/or BS???

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And seriously @Mark D, does every single bloody post of yours have to be a slam against the writing and/or BS???

 

I found this to be a popular choice of action in this forum. People seem to forget the burden that was unloaded on Sanderson. As I've said a number of times before he made best of a bad situation.

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No one forgets, in fact most here(and some that are no longer here who had inside contact with Team Jordan) know better than about anyone else in the fandom exactly what went into things. For instance some of misperceptions you came to DM with about what Brandon had to work with have already been corrected. The key is differentiating between the small handful who have been unfair and the majority who have been pragmatic about the very real, well documented issues. It doesn't help to turn a blind eye to the flaws.

 

I argued as hard as anyone that Team Jordan's change in Brandon's writing process after the mess that was ToM combined with pushing the release date to spend more time polishing the work would lead to a big difference in AMoL. Unfortunately that didn't turn out to be the case and many of the same problems were repeated.

 

Here is a breakdown from someone who had a look inside the process on some of the difficulties faced in editing.
 

Luckers

 

A normal edit should not take more than two months--but then TofM would have needed a lot more than a normal edit to correct what was wrong--as indeed was shown by the product. To be fully frank, it needed far more revisions from its author before it came anywhere near an editor.

And furthermore, if Brandon is not going to put in that effort, than yes, I can see it taking a year for Harriet to do it. These things are not an editors job, nor do they lay in an editors skillset--if they are being thrust upon her, then we need to give her the time to do it.

Let's phrase it another way--you're arguing that Harriet should be able to edit the finished product in two months. Agreed. Your saying Brandon produced the finished product in nine months. Not agreed. He produced the first draft. Now he is working on the second draft. This was the point he sent TofM in--after the second draft. Jordan did twelve drafts before showing it to Harriet.

 

If you wish to continue the discussion we should move it to the quality thread. As myself and mods like Barid have mentioned it would be nice to see you support your point instead of just repeating the same subjective opinion.

 

In Fain's case here, it's rather teling that no one is even trying to defend the choices made with his character in ToM.

Edited by Suttree

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In Sanderson's defence the choice made with Fain in ToM was an excellent one, it brought Fain back to the story and revealed that he had some great and creepy powers, I certaintly found it fascinating and wanted more. The problem was that he failed to employ Fain properly for the finale. Just killing Fain off like that would not really have been any better without the earlier references to how powerful Fain was becoming as it still would have been an interesting long running character being killed off rather pathetically, I would assume that Jordan had a greater plan for Fain (as I would presume that details regarding Sha'el's powers were not just invented by BS) but sadly BS did not figure out how to fit Fain into the ending. I honestly would have preffered if he were just left as a loose end, wandering the post TG world causing mischief.

Edited by threadnecromancer

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In Sanderson's defence the choice made with Fain in ToM was an excellent one, it brought Fain back to the story and revealed that he had some great and creepy powers, I certaintly found it fascinating and wanted more. The problem was that he failed to employ Fain properly for the finale.

 

But that is the point. One does not use a cliffhanger set up in ToM if the ending is going to be rushed/inconsequential as it was in AMoL. It is poor execution.

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Ok, lets see here...we have barely heard a peep out of Fain since Rand chased him out of Far Madding in WH.

That's two entire RJ written books with absolutely nothing.

Over the course of four FULL books we got a single mention of him in the ToM prologue and then not again until almost the end of aMoL.

So please tell me where this great build up was?

 

From day one with Fain, every single plan and scheme he attempted either failed badly or he simply abandoned almost on a whim.

 

RJ wrote the ending right? If Fain was supposed to be there in some great capacity or still had some importance, I'm pretty damned sure RJ would have left notes about him.

 

No, sorry, Fain's end was pretty fitting (Again, even if I think Perrin killing him would have been a little more poetic but Mat doing it the way he did is a close second) and ended the way it should have.

He was a blundering, crazy ass character from beginning and he died the same way.

 

But like I said, by all means provide some actual foreshadowing or even hints that Fain was capable of succeeding in any en devour.

To me, he was a bumbler from the beginning and holding true to that, he bumbled his way into his death.

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In Sanderson's defence the choice made with Fain in ToM was an excellent one, it brought Fain back to the story and revealed that he had some great and creepy powers, I certaintly found it fascinating and wanted more. The problem was that he failed to employ Fain properly for the finale.

 

But that is the point. One does not use a cliffhanger set up in ToM if the ending is going to be rushed/inconsequential as it was in AMoL. It is poor execution.

 

 

You think that was a cliffhanger? 

Fain in tGH set up a much bigger cliffhanger than that. He was supposed to lure them all to Falme for some grand confrontation, at least in Fain's mind, that's how it was supposed to go. What happened though, it all fizzled completely and Fain played no part at all.

 

Sorry, I just don't see where these notions of grandeur for Fain are coming from. Unless of course you were to actually believe his ramblings like he did because that's the only thing he ever succeeded in...always thinking he was great despite never doing anything great. 

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All of that is beside the point Finnnsss, it comes down to execution. No one has claimed there was some grand build up over the latter course of the series. Nevertheless this is an obvious one that shouldn't need any explanation. You've always said you have no problem admitting faults in the writing. It's very clear that you don't do a cliffhanger showcasing new evolving powers as was done in ToM and then end it in the manner that happened in AMoL. You truly believe that was executed well? To be clear I'm not disappointed he didn't serve a larger role in the ending of the story. I'm speaking strictly to how it was handled from a literary sense.

 

As for the notes that argument rings beyond hollow. Enough evidence has been provided to show how how little there was to go off in places (and at times how contradictory) the notes where. Lastly calling him a bumbler from the beginning is disingenuous and you know it. He was not the hapless dimwit you are trying to make him out to be.

Edited by Suttree

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I have to agree with Finnssss here.

 

For me Fain was never a big thing, and ToM didn't do much for the cliffhanger. Perhaps it did for some people, but I think it was put in pretty much so the casual reader didn't forget about the bugger. 

 

Personally, I think we fans did it to ourselves. The fans built up Fain with the multitude of theories about him killing the DO and all that. In the story, Fain is nothing but a minor irritant with some amusing powers. 

 

Of course, RJ - intentionally or unwittingly - magnified this hype with the Q&A about Fain being unique. Fans had a field day with that one. 

 

Having said that, I don't think it was a perfect execution either. Personally, I think a few more PoV's from Fain were needed. I believe I recall Brandon saying that he wished he could have put some more Fain in (don't quote me on that). But, as Brandon has also said, he wished he could write 3 more books out of aMoL and that a heap was going on that was left out. Fain - likely due to his insignificance - was probably one of the things that were deemed unimportant and left out. 

 

I can see the logic in it. I never thought anything of Fain, though, even with all the debate about him being special. I always said that he would be useless and die in obscurity. So perhaps that might be me being nonchalant. 

 

However, while certainly not perfect execution by Brandon, I believe that the disappointment with Fain lies largely with the fandom making a big deal out of nothing.  

 

Edit: At first, I did think it was a silly move - as can be seen in earlier posts. But after going over the series as a whole, I came to this conclusion.

Edited by Barid Bel Medar

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Yeah, for me Fain usefulness was done.

 

He pushed the boys further along than they would have been on their own.

 

He pushed Rand and gave him the way to cleanse saidin.

He "unlocked" Mat.

He hardened Perrin.

 

He was integral to the development of all three of them. when that was done, so was he. 

 

In the end he wasn't much more than an insanity laced wild goose.

Very RJ like when you really think about it.

Edited by Finnssss

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