Am I the only one who is pissed over the anticlimactic end to Fain's story?

[Suttree]

If RJ had it all set up as of WH, and all BS did was finish him off the way RJ intended explain the ToM transformation and power up. Why continue to evolve the character? You consistently dodge the main concept being discussed here.

 

Also why pull only a few words out of the BS quotes(and get what you did pull out wrong at that). Let's look at some of the other things he actually said.

Brandon Sanderson

I might have done more with Fain if I'd had the time and the pages.

Brandon

I COULD have expanded, and perhaps I would have, given more time. However, at the same time, there is an argument to be had that RJ wanted Fain to have a lesser-than-expected place in the Last Battle, and expanding him would undermine this.

So given that, why expand his powers in ToM and give him the extra screen time? Further he states he may have done more if he could have. That almost directly refutes the point you try to make above.

[Mr Ares]

 

 

 

 

 

How it was handled is central to the question being asked. It's disingenuous to suggest otherwise.

 

It's clear by this point that when Finnnssss doesn't have an actual argument he quibbles over terminology(many v. half, cliffhanger v. thingy etc.) or complains about literary discussion. I mean he actually tried to waive away the power increase/evolution earlier by comparing defeating a worm or animating zombies to being able to "take down shadowspawn". That really says it all in that he won't even admit a transformation took place with the character. As Mr Ares said earlier:

 

Quibbling over whether or not it is a "cliffhanger" is attempting to use semantics to avoid constructively addressing the point. As I said earlier: "So what would you call it then? An update? Fine." The terminology is unimportant, because the point is substantively the same regardless of whether or not it's a cliffhanger - hence no need to prove that it is (and trying to prove that it is would merely validate an irrelevant point). If the term "cliffhanger" was dropped in favour of "thingy", the point wouldn't change: "One does not use a cliffhanger thingy set up in ToM if the ending is going to be rushed/inconsequential as it was in AMoL. It is poor execution." Identical point, different terminology. As for turning this into a quality discussion, it's right there in the opening post (even the thread title). This was always a quality thread. Stop trolling. Address the point. Or slink away.

 

 *Sigh*

 

Again...the OP wasn't asking if it felt rushed or if it was written poorly.

He was asking if anyone else felt letdown by Fain's death relative to the PLOT!

He specifically refers to Fain being a main villain and protagonist throughout, only to meet his end so quickly and easily at Mat's hands.

 

As I said earlier, we all, at some point, bought into Fain's insanity that he was more than what he actually was.

Was he going to actually play a part in Rand's fight with the DO...no, he was not.

Was he going to show up and cause mayhem...definitely.

 

At the end of the day, no matter how powerful he thought himself to be, no matter the powers he commanded, he was, at the heart still just a man in a weak mortal body. And a vastly overconfident one at that allowing himself to get so close to Mat to meet his end.

Even he realised this at the end, not sure why you can't.

Actually, he isn't. He is no longer a man, for all that he is still, for the time being, attached to the weak mortal body. Again, that's part of the problem - it wasn't Fain, it was Shaisam. It's not just a name change, it's a different being.

 

And we did not all buy into Fain's insanity and belief in his own importance - the nature of Fain's death fits very closely with what I've been predicting for years. It has always been clear that Rand has bigger problems that just Fain - for all Fain clearly had a role to play, he was not the primary source of conflict. But just because the character isn't that important in the wider scheme of things, doesn't mean that you can't give the character a decent send off. Brandon didn't do right by Fain, and that's not because he didn't have Fain face off against Shai'tan, but because he had Fain replaced by Shaisam off screen, and then killed off Shaisam in an ignominious way. It made the whole thing feel pointless, and so people were annoyed. Fain didn't cause any chaos or havoc in the last book. Fain didn't do anything. Fain was replaced, and to no end. So even if we accept your "He was asking if anyone else felt let down by Fain's death relative to the PLOT!", you're still not addressing the point, because Fain was still disappointing in that respect. It was a disservice to the character, and not because of some false belief in the importance of the character, but simply because the plot betrayed that character and gave him less than he was due, even though he wasn't due a lot. An unimportant character died a less important death than he deserved is the problem, not that an unimportant character was wrongly believed important and disappointment springs from the unimportant death he received. Whether or not this thread is one of quality is therefore irrelevant - your point doesn't hold water either way.

 

 

This has got to be one of the most nonsensical posts that I have read in quite a while, even for you, this is out there.

 

You don't get it do you? Fain/Shaisam/Mordeth were never supposed to exist outside of Shadar Logath in the first place and were supposed to be destroyed when saidin was cleansed. The evil created there was PROVIDED by the pattern. was NEEDED for Rand to cleanse saidin.

Fain or whatever name you want to give him was a side effect, an anomaly that the pattern hadn't caught up to or fully attempted to correct yet, not until a taveren (Mat) did so. Even that was something that the pattern set up a loooong time ago in Mat waaaaay back in Book 1.

This why RJ cited Fain as a "Wildcard" and "side stepping the Pattern".

 

By the end of Book 9, Fain was done. He was no longer useful nor did he present much of a real threat anymore. Rand chased him away with his tail securely between his legs.

Sure, he was going to back for one last effort but, just like everything else he attempted to accomplish, it was either going to fall short in a grand way or simply be left unfinished.

 

 

There is no evidence or prior precedent to indicate or even hint that Fain deserved a more meaningful or more deserving ending than what he got.

Other than his own insanity fueled ramblings that is. 

You're still talking gibberish. Characters are introduced for a reason. They are kept around for a reason. That reason can be big, it can be small, it can be seen miles off or wholly unexpected. Once they have no more purpose to serve, why are they kept around? You don't keep trying to tell a character's story after it's done, because it's done, because there's nowhere for it to go. Even if a character's story is done, they can still serve a purpose in furthering the story of another character. At the end of book 9, how is Fain's story closer to completion? SL is gone, but SL was never required for the continuation of Fain's story - it served as a catalyst to break Fain's chains to Shai'tan, but after that their stories diverged. ToM included a promise that Fain's story was drawing to a close, that he was going to the Pit of Doom to wait for Rand. He went on to serve no purpose. It's senseless. It has nothing to do with Fain's rantings, nothing at all, so stop pretending that that has even the vaguest relevance to the topic. Fain's ending was a let down, was an anti-climax, not because he didn't do what he set out to do, but because he didn't do anything. Because he served no purpose within the narrative. He was tossed in at the last minute, and he wasn't even Fain. For all that Fain never succeeded in his goals, he often served as a catalyst for further conflict - he drew the Whitecloaks to the TR, and the Shadow came to kill Fain, and Perrin came back, leading to Perrin's ascension to a leadership position. He didn't do what he set out to do, but his actions had major repercussions. Now Fain was never going to kill Rand, nor was he ever going to become the new Shai'tan. But just because he was going to fail in his main goal, regardless of that, he could still play a major role, even in failure, even in death. But he didn't. He died in a tacked on, pointless and anticlimactic fashion, and you've never really addressed that. It wasn't an anticlimax (and that is the topic of the thread, remember, so don't try to pretend that I'm derailing it by making it about quality) because people believed Fain's hype. It wasn't because he failed. It was because he served no purpose. It's not that he failed, it's that he was insignificant. That's not something he's been before. Before he's been a nuisance with the ability to have a major impact, albeit mainly indirectly.

And you really don't understand why he no longer served a purpose, why he became insignificant? 

 

Fain's ability to affect people, the Pattern, the story was based on being able to sow chaos, induce paranoia and fear.

As we got closer to the end, the Threads of the Pattern (the people) were tightened up, converged and focused on The Last Battle. Fain's ability to affect these tightened Threads became more and more singular, his overall impact became less and less.

 

Do I think that if RJ had have lived to finish the books, that he would have been able to better convey this in the end? For sure but the thing is that RJ had ALREADY set this up and shown us this path by the end of Winter's Heart.

All BS had to do was finish him off "In a less than expected way", which is exactly what he did.

 

So quit yer whinnin and complaining that BS screwed Fain's ending up, he didn't. He finished him the way RJ had already set him up to finish.

It's all there, you just have to open your eyes.

If Fain had nothing more to do, then he could have been killed in WH as easily. Or just left out entirely. Or we see him begin his transformation into Shaisam somewhere well away from the LB, with an acknowledgement that this change will take a long time, perhaps years, leaving him as a lingering threat for the future. As it is, Fain died and was replaced by something more powerful, who proceeded to do nothing of note. What was the point? Your explanations haven't really touched that. If he no longer served a purpose, why was he there? As Suttree points out, in ToM he receives a power up. In AMoL, he's not even Fain any more, Fain is dead. Then Shaisam dies. Why not just keep Fain around and kill him in AMoL, if there is nothing more to accomplish than a finish to his story?

[Yamezt]

Red herring?

[Finnssss22]

If RJ had it all set up as of WH, and all BS did was finish him off the way RJ intended explain the ToM transformation and power up. Why continue to evolve the character? You consistently dodge the main concept being discussed here.

 

Also why pull only a few words out of the BS quotes(and get what you did pull out wrong at that). Let's look at some of the other things he actually said.

Brandon Sanderson

I might have done more with Fain if I'd had the time and the pages.

Brandon

I COULD have expanded, and perhaps I would have, given more time. However, at the same time, there is an argument to be had that RJ wanted Fain to have a lesser-than-expected place in the Last Battle, and expanding him would undermine this.

So given that, why expand his powers in ToM and give him the extra screen time? Further he states he may have done more if he could have. That almost directly refutes the point you try to make above.

 

 

We've been over this.

If Fain still had some grand place in the story, then you would think he would have rated at least something from RJ in his last 2 books. What did we get? NOTHING!

BS's first book? NOTHING!

ToM prologue? A single, short PoV that basically boils down to him sitting in the blight tapping his foot waiting.

Like seriously, where in the books did you get the impression that a mindless Worm would stand up any better than a Fade or a Trolloc to him? If he had've taken on a Gholam, now THAT would've been something to coo over.

 

I have more than adequately explained Fain's roles and progression through the series. I showed how he either failed or simply abandoned just about every scheme he attempted. Explained how and why RJ said "He had sidestepped the Pattern". How his ability to sow chaos diminished greatly as the end neared.

You keep bringing up BS's quotes where, to me, he is clearly indicating that while he would've liked to do more with Fain, he felt that RJ's wishes and setup of the character wouldn't have been upheld if he did so. 

 

What do you keep coming back to as your only point...a single short PoV in a prologue with a supposed cliffhanger that wasn't/ a power up that really isn't.

EVERY SINGLE POST OF YOURS COMES BACK TO THIS!

 

Like I said 5 pages ago, everything you're arguing rests on your interpretation of that ToM prologue PoV and I don't buy your interpretation, I'm not alone on that either.

 

The only disappointment I had in Fain's death was that it wasn't Perrin doing it.

 

We'll just have to agree to disagree because I will never give that PoV any where close to the weight you do.

[Suttree]

ToM prologue? A single, short PoV that basically boils down to him sitting in the blight tapping his foot waiting.

Like seriously, where in the books did you get the impression that a mindless Worm would stand up any better than a Fade or a Trolloc to him? If he had've taken on a Gholam, now THAT would've been something to coo over...

 

with a supposed cliffhanger that wasn't/ a power up that really isn't.

 

Wait...are you really trying to imply Fain's transformation and the ToM scene show Fain doing nothing aside from taking out a worm?!?! Even though that alone would be far more than him being able to torture info out of a Fade, there was a good deal more than that which happened with the build up of the character. Not sure how you expect anyone to take your point seriously when you are that disengenious in your argument concerning the evolution of Fain's powers. I mean I know you need to attempt to downplay that portion of ToM, as it combined with the BS quote shreds your point apart...but seriously? Additionally you've already been corrected on this but the only book in which Fain gets no mention after WH is CoT so unstick your caps lock and stop shouting nonsense.

 

Basically you have dodged the main point(which is why people keep bringing it up), misrepresented arguments, split hairs over semantics, misquoted the author in an attempt to support your opinion and repeatedly tried to deflect the debate whining about the quality issue. Curious to see what could possibly come next aside from yet another round of straw men like "ZOMFG!!!!! You fell for Fain's delusions of grandeur!" or "if you think Fain still had some grand place in the story why was he not mentioned...".

 

In an attempt to get this back on track why not try and address something one of us has actually argued:

 

If Fain had nothing more to do, then he could have been killed in WH as easily. Or just left out entirely. Or we see him begin his transformation into Shaisam somewhere well away from the LB, with an acknowledgement that this change will take a long time, perhaps years, leaving him as a lingering threat for the future. As it is, Fain died and was replaced by something more powerful, who proceeded to do nothing of note. What was the point? Your explanations haven't really touched that. If he no longer served a purpose, why was he there? As Suttree points out, in ToM he receives a power up. In AMoL, he's not even Fain any more, Fain is dead. Then Shaisam dies. Why not just keep Fain around and kill him in AMoL, if there is nothing more to accomplish than a finish to his story?

[Mats Spare Hat]

Aside:

It really grinds my gears to read the author talk about how he might have done more, etc., if he hadn't been limited by time constraints - and yet here we have pages worth of material, released after the fact, river of souls for instance, or even if you wanted to take into account what must have been an inordinate amount of time spent on Perrin vs. Slayer XVIII, or scenes like whose got the bigger dick, a la Rand & Mat, take your pick really...And in addressing the treatment of any given character, Fain in this instance, down the line, to bring up that you were under time constraints, when we can so freely observe the results of such labor, that which showed up in the finished product...

...Just, what the hell, man.

To borrow a line from the script of Miracle, when Kurt Russell's character observes the panic emanating from Tikhonov's bench:  "He[sanderson] doesn't[didn't] know what to do!"


Blllllleeehhhh. Yeah, that's it.

[Mr Ares]

 

If RJ had it all set up as of WH, and all BS did was finish him off the way RJ intended explain the ToM transformation and power up. Why continue to evolve the character? You consistently dodge the main concept being discussed here.

 

Also why pull only a few words out of the BS quotes(and get what you did pull out wrong at that). Let's look at some of the other things he actually said.

Brandon Sanderson

I might have done more with Fain if I'd had the time and the pages.

Brandon

I COULD have expanded, and perhaps I would have, given more time. However, at the same time, there is an argument to be had that RJ wanted Fain to have a lesser-than-expected place in the Last Battle, and expanding him would undermine this.

So given that, why expand his powers in ToM and give him the extra screen time? Further he states he may have done more if he could have. That almost directly refutes the point you try to make above.

 

 

We've been over this.

If Fain still had some grand place in the story, then you would think he would have rated at least something from RJ in his last 2 books. What did we get? NOTHING!

BS's first book? NOTHING!

ToM prologue? A single, short PoV that basically boils down to him sitting in the blight tapping his foot waiting.

Like seriously, where in the books did you get the impression that a mindless Worm would stand up any better than a Fade or a Trolloc to him? If he had've taken on a Gholam, now THAT would've been something to coo over.

 

Consider that Worms are presented in the books as scarier than Trollocs and Fades. Consider that producing a mist and turning Trollocs and Fades into zombies in the way he did is not something we've seen before. So he's displaying new powers and an ability to take down something bigger and scarier than what he's faced before. There's no point adding this in if all Fain has to do is show up and die. We get a power up, we get an update on Fain that begins pushing him into place for the endgame. Then when he shows up, he's not Fain and he doesn't impact the endgame at all anyway. Other than him randomly falling over and breaking his neck before he ever gets to SG, what happened in AMoL is the least interesting thing you could do with his character. And you've consistently dodged the points people (especially Mr Ares - he's a smart guy, you should probably listen to him) make. What is the point of introducing Shaisam if nothing comes of it? What is the point of upping Fain's power if nothing comes of it? Fain was always an occasional menace, his being absent for books doesn't change that. He can still do something meaningful in the pages he has. He doesn't have to take up a lot of screen time, doesn't have to see a plan through to completion, he doesn't have to succeed. Ultimately, this is not his story, he's a minor player - even more so than Moridin, who is still largely sidelined by events in the finale to make way for the Rand/Shai'tan clash. But just as Moridin still had a meaningful part to play, and that's why he was around, so Fain should have had a role to play. But he didn't. RJ kept him around after WH for a reason. Even if he wasn't getting any screen time, he was still a part of the story. Come AMoL, we should be seeing why he was kept around, he should have played his part in the finale. But he didn't, he was tacked on. And that's the point you ignore - why was he there if he had nothing to do? Either give him something to do or don't put him in the book.

[threadnecromancer]

 

ToM prologue? A single, short PoV that basically boils down to him sitting in the blight tapping his foot waiting.

Like seriously, where in the books did you get the impression that a mindless Worm would stand up any better than a Fade or a Trolloc to him? If he had've taken on a Gholam, now THAT would've been something to coo over...

 

with a supposed cliffhanger that wasn't/ a power up that really isn't.

 

Wait...are you really trying to imply Fain's transformation and the ToM scene show Fain doing nothing aside from taking out a worm?!?! Even though that alone would be far more than him being able to torture info out of a Fade, there was a good deal more than that which happened with the build up of the character. Not sure how you expect anyone to take your point seriously when you are that disengenious in your argument concerning the evolution of Fain's powers. I mean I know you need to attempt to downplay that portion of ToM, as it combined with the BS quote shreds your point apart...but seriously? Additionally you've already been corrected on this but the only book in which Fain gets no mention after WH is CoT so unstick your caps lock and stop shouting nonsense.

 

Basically you have dodged the main point(which is why people keep bringing it up), misrepresented arguments, split hairs over semantics, misquoted the author in an attempt to support your opinion and repeatedly tried to deflect the debate whining about the quality issue. Curious to see what could possibly come next aside from yet another round of straw men like "ZOMFG!!!!! You fell for Fain's delusions of grandeur!" or "if you think Fain still had some grand place in the story why was he not mentioned...".

 

In an attempt to get this back on track why not try and address something one of us has actually argued:

 

If Fain had nothing more to do, then he could have been killed in WH as easily. Or just left out entirely. Or we see him begin his transformation into Shaisam somewhere well away from the LB, with an acknowledgement that this change will take a long time, perhaps years, leaving him as a lingering threat for the future. As it is, Fain died and was replaced by something more powerful, who proceeded to do nothing of note. What was the point? Your explanations haven't really touched that. If he no longer served a purpose, why was he there? As Suttree points out, in ToM he receives a power up. In AMoL, he's not even Fain any more, Fain is dead. Then Shaisam dies. Why not just keep Fain around and kill him in AMoL, if there is nothing more to accomplish than a finish to his story?

 

 

 

ToM prologue? A single, short PoV that basically boils down to him sitting in the blight tapping his foot waiting.

Like seriously, where in the books did you get the impression that a mindless Worm would stand up any better than a Fade or a Trolloc to him? If he had've taken on a Gholam, now THAT would've been something to coo over...

 

with a supposed cliffhanger that wasn't/ a power up that really isn't.

 

Wait...are you really trying to imply Fain's transformation and the ToM scene show Fain doing nothing aside from taking out a worm?!?! Even though that alone would be far more than him being able to torture info out of a Fade, there was a good deal more than that which happened with the build up of the character. Not sure how you expect anyone to take your point seriously when you are that disengenious in your argument concerning the evolution of Fain's powers. I mean I know you need to attempt to downplay that portion of ToM, as it combined with the BS quote shreds your point apart...but seriously? Additionally you've already been corrected on this but the only book in which Fain gets no mention after WH is CoT so unstick your caps lock and stop shouting nonsense.

 

Basically you have dodged the main point(which is why people keep bringing it up), misrepresented arguments, split hairs over semantics, misquoted the author in an attempt to support your opinion and repeatedly tried to deflect the debate whining about the quality issue. Curious to see what could possibly come next aside from yet another round of straw men like "ZOMFG!!!!! You fell for Fain's delusions of grandeur!" or "if you think Fain still had some grand place in the story why was he not mentioned...".

 

In an attempt to get this back on track why not try and address something one of us has actually argued:

 

If Fain had nothing more to do, then he could have been killed in WH as easily. Or just left out entirely. Or we see him begin his transformation into Shaisam somewhere well away from the LB, with an acknowledgement that this change will take a long time, perhaps years, leaving him as a lingering threat for the future. As it is, Fain died and was replaced by something more powerful, who proceeded to do nothing of note. What was the point? Your explanations haven't really touched that. If he no longer served a purpose, why was he there? As Suttree points out, in ToM he receives a power up. In AMoL, he's not even Fain any more, Fain is dead. Then Shaisam dies. Why not just keep Fain around and kill him in AMoL, if there is nothing more to accomplish than a finish to his story?

 

 

I thought Fain was mentioned by implication in CoT? Was he not the one the great packs of Darkhounds were chasing or was that revealed to be something else?

[jayder22]

I don't think this was my idea, I am pretty sure I read it on the boards somewhere, not sure where.

 

The theory on Fain that I like to think, and explains the build up and cliffhanger, followed by a sense of let down that nothing happens is explained as follows:

 

Fain and his growing powers were part of the pattern building up an option for a replacement Dark One if Rand were to kill him. Rand had the power and the choice to kill the Dark One. I believe the pattern put Fain close, with his unique powers, so if Rand decided to kill the Dark One, Fain could step in. As the Dark One Dies, his power/essence which is already attuned to Fain alters Fain even further causing him to take on the role of the new Dark One. Rand realizes this and promptly seals him away and the cycle starts anew.

 

Because Rand chose not to kill the Dark One, at this point the Pattern knows Fain will not be necessary and Fain is summarily woven out nice and neat.

 

Just my take, I know it is rough, I am sure it could be described better or with different details to make more sense.

[Leopoled Boothe]

I don't think this was my idea, I am pretty sure I read it on the boards somewhere, not sure where.

 

The theory on Fain that I like to think, and explains the build up and cliffhanger, followed by a sense of let down that nothing happens is explained as follows:

 

Fain and his growing powers were part of the pattern building up an option for a replacement Dark One if Rand were to kill him. Rand had the power and the choice to kill the Dark One. I believe the pattern put Fain close, with his unique powers, so if Rand decided to kill the Dark One, Fain could step in. As the Dark One Dies, his power/essence which is already attuned to Fain alters Fain even further causing him to take on the role of the new Dark One. Rand realizes this and promptly seals him away and the cycle starts anew.

 

Because Rand chose not to kill the Dark One, at this point the Pattern knows Fain will not be necessary and Fain is summarily woven out nice and neat.

 

Just my take, I know it is rough, I am sure it could be described better or with different details to make more sense.

 

I don't know if there is any truth to this but it certainly would have made a better ending.   I actually loved the idea of Mat being immune to Mashadar due to having carried the dagger I just think it would have worked better if Fain had become a more imminent threat to Rand before Mat took him down.

[Quadrillium]

People stating that Fain's anticlimactic end was not much of a problem because Fain was no longer important to the story are unwittingly demonstrating a major flaw which manifested itself numerous times in the course of the series. Looking at any work of fiction from a critical perspective reveals a basic rule that a storyline must follow - characters, events, and plot points do not exist for the sake of existing. They exist in order to perform a relevant (and interesting) function in the story. A character that exists despite having nothing to contribute to the story is a flaw, and a big one.

 

Fain was a recurring secondary antagonist since book one, with a very unique and complex backstory, a role/personality that set him aside from any other evil creatures in the story, and a number of villainous actions that ranged from invading the Two Rivers with an army of Whitecloaks and killing Perrin's parents to aimlessly running around Rand with a dagger in Far Madding. That didn't make him important in the sense of the manner in which he influences the WoT universe, but it did make him stand out in the minds of the readers who followed his recurring appearances and wondered about his ultimate purpose. Similarities to Gollum even led fans to theorize that Fain will unwittingly/accidentally enable the protagonists to defeat the Dark One, a theory further bolstered by the mutual annihilation of DO's and Fain's evils. When Brandon Sanderson took over the series and got to writing Fain's PoV, he ended up writing a surreal and ominous paragraph about Fain gaining awesome new powers that made him more dangerous than some of the most dangerous creatures of the Blight, and lying in wait for the protagonist(s) in a place we know he(they) must visit in the final book. This part gained further notoriety after BS said that Harriet didn't like his original draft of Fain's PoV because it wasn't creepy/insane enough, indicating that Team Jordan thought setting the right mood for the next book was important enough to demand a rewrite. 

 

So after all the recurrence, uniqueness, cliffhangers and hype, what role did Fain end up playing in AMoL? That's right, none. Zombie Trollocks accomplished nothing that regular Trollocks couldn't have done. Shaisam' tendrils accomplished nothing that Mashadar tendrils couldn't have done. Fain's insane ramblings and evil schemes resulted in even less that Fain's insane ramblings and evil schemes had resulted in previous books. At least in early WoT Fain was the only villain in the entire series who was smart enough to emotionally compromise the protagonists by attacking the village where all of their families live. In AMoL Shaisam simply did the exact same thing that all the other villains were doing. Finally, after accomplishing nothing, playing no role in the story, and wasting all of our time, he got killed off.

 

If Fain was so decisively unimportant and had absolutely nothing to do in the final books - why was he even in the final books? The only time the connection between Shadar Logoth's evil and the Dark One's evil was ever important to the story was in Winter's Heart, when Rand ended up using their mutual annihilation to cleanse Saidin. Why couldn't RJ had gotten rid of Fain then? This plotline could have been so easy to wrap up properly.

 

Let's say we're nearing the end of a version of Winter's Heart written by an author who bothers to write proper and timely conclusions to his plotlines. After Fain faces Rand in Far Madding where Rand can't channel and still fails to kill him, Fain decides the cursed dagger alone isn't enough to kill the Dragon, and that he needs a serious power-boost. Since Fain has no time or opportunity to corrupt new places, he decides to visit the city he had already corrupted centuries ago - Shadar Logoth. There he tries to merge with the Mashadar and turn into Shaisam, and is interrupted by Rand who channels vast amounts of tainted Saidin through Shadar Logoth, keeping Fain trapped inside. When the process is complete, Shadar Logoth and the DO's taint cancel each other out, and Fain ceases to exist. Alternatively, Fain senses Rand's presence nearby, leaves Shadar Logoth, tries to kill him and ends up being fried by one of Rand's allies, or even one of the Forsaken. The possibilities to give his character a proper conclusion are limitless. RJ chose not to do that for reasons that are not clear, and since Brandon Sanderson lacked the information to give Fain anything important to do, he just made him stand there and get killed pointlessly after making us think he was going to be at least moderately important.

 

To sum up - don't keep characters alive after they've served their purpose in the plot, and don't give them screentime and ominous PoVs if they aren't going to matter in any way. A character with a unique background, personality, powers and role needs to have a suitably unique ending regardless of how much of a major role he will end up playing in the world's history. Otherwise, don't introduce him into your story.

 

Fain and his growing powers were part of the pattern building up an option for a replacement Dark One if Rand were to kill him

 

I'm sorry, but no. We've already seen a vision of the world in which Rand kills the Dark One and Rand confirmed that the vision was true after defeating the Dark One and understanding all of his secrets. In that world the Dark One stayed dead and was not replaced by anyone. Therefore, Fain is not a replacement. Besides, if the Pattern created Fain to replace the Dark One in case he was killed, then why have Mat the ta'veren kill Fain before Rand had the option of choosing whether or not to kill the Dark One?

[jayder22]

 

Fain and his growing powers were part of the pattern building up an option for a replacement Dark One if Rand were to kill him

I'm sorry, but no. We've already seen a vision of the world in which Rand kills the Dark One and Rand confirmed that the vision was true after defeating the Dark One and understanding all of his secrets. In that world the Dark One stayed dead and was not replaced by anyone. Therefore, Fain is not a replacement. Besides, if the Pattern created Fain to replace the Dark One in case he was killed, then why have Mat the ta'veren kill Fain before Rand had the option of choosing whether or not to kill the Dark One?

 

Right, so we saw a world without The Dark One, not one where the Dark One was replaced. And Matt killed Fain after Rand had seen a vision of the world without The Dark One, thus changing his mind about killing the dark one at this point, before Fain was killed.. You are correct, there are arguments against the theory, but there are also arguments that it could be possible.

[Finnssss22]

I don't think this was my idea, I am pretty sure I read it on the boards somewhere, not sure where.

 

The theory on Fain that I like to think, and explains the build up and cliffhanger, followed by a sense of let down that nothing happens is explained as follows:

 

Fain and his growing powers were part of the pattern building up an option for a replacement Dark One if Rand were to kill him. Rand had the power and the choice to kill the Dark One. I believe the pattern put Fain close, with his unique powers, so if Rand decided to kill the Dark One, Fain could step in. As the Dark One Dies, his power/essence which is already attuned to Fain alters Fain even further causing him to take on the role of the new Dark One. Rand realizes this and promptly seals him away and the cycle starts anew.

 

Because Rand chose not to kill the Dark One, at this point the Pattern knows Fain will not be necessary and Fain is summarily woven out nice and neat.

 

Just my take, I know it is rough, I am sure it could be described better or with different details to make more sense.

 

Fain was not created by the Pattern though, he was a by-product of it, only possible because he was made into the DO's hound before going to Shadar Logath.

Mordeth and what he accomplished in Shadar Logath, was NEEDED. It was a creation of the Pattern a long time ago in advance of the day it would be needed to cleanse saidin.

Fain was not part of that, he was outside the Pattern, (we were told this by RJ himself) at least for a time he was.

That was until Rand caught up to him in in FM with the result of that meeting effectively neutralizing Fain and pretty close to any ability he had to affect the Pattern/course of events.

IMO, it was no coincidence that Fain was more or less neutralized and SL was destroyed in the same book.  

Personally, I think the only reason the Pattern didn't catch up to him sooner was because Fain was never a true threat to the boys. If anything he was helping them, pushed them to levels they may not have achieved in the relatively short time they had before the Last Battle.

When Fain's usefulness ended, the Pattern saw to it that Rand neutered him so he would no longer be an issue either way and when Fain finally became a threat, the Pattern saw to it that Mat finally put him out of his misery.

 

Fain was done after Book 9, he and really, most readers, just didn't know it yet.

[rygar]

To me, Fain was RJ's biggest mistake in the entire series.  I never liked the plot line and while I agree BS mailed it in finished Fain off, it didn't bother me since I never cared to read the Fain story lines anyway.

[Plato]

Well consider this: if Fain was meant to play some epic role: RJ would have written it explicitly.  Don't you think it strange that if Fain was meant to have some mega huge badass role in the LB, there would be some notes on it like we have on everything else?  Therefore, everyone is blaming Brandon and Team-Jordan on the let down. 

 

Its obvious by the later books even RJ had no more use for the character as a plot device anyway. 

 

I did find the power up in ToM, only to be dead in 6 pages flat in AMoL to be annoying as well...

[Pinzarn]

I have two thoughts...

 

1.  Fain served his purpose.  Since the character's storyline wasn't closed out, he hung around.

 

2.  Due to #1, it kind of led to the fans making up uses for him at the end.  His character was still around; therefore, it was plausible that he'd be important.

[Mr Ares]

Well consider this: if Fain was meant to play some epic role: RJ would have written it explicitly.  Don't you think it strange that if Fain was meant to have some mega huge badass role in the LB, there would be some notes on it like we have on everything else?  Therefore, everyone is blaming Brandon and Team-Jordan on the let down. 

 

Its obvious by the later books even RJ had no more use for the character as a plot device anyway. 

 

I did find the power up in ToM, only to be dead in 6 pages flat in AMoL to be annoying as well...

He doesn't have to have an epic role. Just a role. If he is being kept around, it should be for a purpose. Given that he served no purpose in the narrative, he should not have been in the last book, nor in ToM. Of course, killing him in WH is not an option for Brandon, so he has the guy alive and has to find something to do with him. Everyone is blaming Brandon and Team Jordan because it's their fault. If there was something in the notes about his role, they should use that role. If not, they should invent a role. But him being around with no purpose is not good writing. Him just not showing up again after WH would have been better - he's still a loose end, but he's not cluttering up the narrative for no reason.

[Hayward1979]

He doesn't have to have an epic role. Just a role. If he is being kept around, it should be for a purpose. Given that he served no purpose in the narrative, he should not have been in the last book, nor in ToM. Of course, killing him in WH is not an option for Brandon, so he has the guy alive and has to find something to do with him. Everyone is blaming Brandon and Team Jordan because it's their fault. If there was something in the notes about his role, they should use that role. If not, they should invent a role. But him being around with no purpose is not good writing. Him just not showing up again after WH would have been better - he's still a loose end, but he's not cluttering up the narrative for no reason.

 

 

Unless RJ did specifically write what Fain's role was to be and BS and TJ carried out that role.  Blaming BS and TJ is based upon speculation.

[Suttree]

 

Unless RJ did specifically write what Fain's role was to be and BS and TJ carried out that role.  Blaming BS and TJ is based upon speculation.

 

Not sure what you mean. BS created over half the material with no guidance from the notes and even changed RJ's direction when he felt it was needed. In this case interviews have specifically said there was little to go on with Fain.

[Hayward1979]

Nothing in the interviews that I have seen says that Fain's general endgame was not in the notes, so it seems odd that we would assume that as another excuse to bash Sanderson.

[Suttree]

Literary critique based around a certain character ≠ bashing.

 

As for the quote:

 

Brandon Sanderson

No, no deleted scenes here. I did Mashadar the way I did because of the small amount of information in the notes about it or Fain, and I felt that going with what little I did have was better than exploring widely without knowing where RJ wanted to go. In some other cases, I did extrapolate when we didn't have much from RJ, but here it felt better to go with the "less is more" idea.

[Hayward1979]

Brandon's quote backs up my point. Thank you for including it.

[Suttree]

 

So Hayward what are your thouhgts on Fain's role in AMoL and for what purpose was he kept around?

[Barid Bel Medar]

Here is some extra information on the topic of Fain via quotes if it helps: 

 

 

INTERVIEW: 2013  

Reddit 2013 (WoT)

  BRANDON SANDERSON (PARAPHRASED)

1. RJ left notes for many characters that were open for Sanderson expansion, but the expansion on many was not necessary. Padan Fain is one of those characters, however everything RJ left for Fain specifically for AMoL was used. 2. 'Padan Fain is a weasel' and many, many other characters deserve more words than him. 3. Fans built up several plot points that did not come to fruition and RJ even recognized this explicitly. Padan Fain is one of those characters.

 

 

Fain through my three books feels very similar to me. It wasn't as strict here as it was with the Mat/Ghenjei sequence—I COULD have expanded, and perhaps I would have, given more time. However, at the same time, there is an argument to be had that RJ wanted Fain to have a lesser-than-expected place in the Last Battle, and expanding him would undermine this.

[Suttree]

Good stuff Barid, and good to see you around posting.

 

Figured we should add these to the collection:
 

 

Brandon

Also, I might have tried to work Fain in more if I'd had more time.

Brandon Sanderson

As for Fain, a piece of me does wish there had been time for more with him.

Brandon Sanderson

I might have done more with Fain if I'd had the time and the pages.