Sharian Nation

[AesSedaiGuy]

My thoughts on the matter have been explained previously ... So please don't read this clarification as an impassioned defense ... But I have to clarify a fallacy in your opening line Frog.

 

It's not that only White people can be villains or treated like animals ... In fact, that is one of the biggest fallacies about diversity and racial undertones ...rather, it is how people of color are treated throughout the series ...if we see them take on bigger roles, and heroic roles, and advisor roles ... As well as villainous and fodder roles.

 

Additionally, the stereotype of dark-skinned men behaving like Gorillas has it's own racial history.

 

Personally, I think RJ did a decent job interspersing people of color in various roles, and I agree for the most part, skin color was just one more descriptor ... However, that doesn't negate the fact that their might have been some racial connotation with the Sharans. It also doesn't mean that just because he threw some people of color in means he did enough ... All the main characters were Anglo, and he explored and used Euro tropes much more than others ... But I also understand we all write from our own perspective and POV.

 

It is not wrong to say he could have done more, or even that there were undertones with the Sharans. The same can be said of male homosexual relationships. RJ has said they exist, but we can name all the "pillow friends" we saw and conclude they were all women. Does that mean RJ was homophobic? Probably not. Does it mean he was a product of his environment and society? Yes. Same can be said of race.

 

[Frogtastic]

Oh I had no problem understanding whats being said, it was more in response to people taking way to much notice in such a very unlikely offensive statement that only takes up like 4 lines and really does nothing to the story.

 

And I feel like if they showed the Sharan as continent with white/tan population, people wouldn't have taken offense to the ape comparison but would then find a racially charged subject of why there's no African/black representation in WOT, though there's plenty of examples of large darkskinned populations. Also if the aiel were black would it become racist since theyre tribal and use spear? Mabey this could also be a reason why RJ made them the exact opposite, so he wouldn't have to deal with those accusations.

 

I would hate it if authors start changing their process or change the image for their book to play to every sort of sensitivity. I really don't enjoy books/games/movies where each society either seems to be exactly the same in appearance or each society has 1 of every race at same pop% so as not to offend or single out a group

[AesSedaiGuy]

Pointing out, to me, doesn't mean it should be changed ... Especially if not deliberate or malicious or overt ...to me everything is about choices and consequences ... For whatever reason RJ or BS made this choice ...it isn't without consequences, intentional or not, and pointing out the possible racial tones is one of those consequences ...to me it doesn't detract, nor add to the book ... It just "is".

 

Therefore, you're right, there might have been a point made had the Aiel been black-skinned ... But such is the nature of the society RJ, BS and the rest of us in the US live in ... For better or worse, it just "is".

[Orderofolde]

I'm still wondering how we went from "It's too late to introduce a new land/culture/people into the LAST BOOK" from Team BS and your hard-hitting fans, to suddenly we have this Sharan army, Demandred WITH a Sa'angreal that is uber powerful, AND they are all fighting with trollocs.  We've seen the king and queen equivalent from Shara in Graendal's menagerie of playthings, we see the silk merchant in the Inn, and we hear a few things from Noal, Aiel, and Seafolk about the Sharans and the Ayad villages.  Not only is it too late but the few chapters  that try to work it in get ripped out of the mainline story and then sandwiched together into a short story offered later on?

 

Demandred has been the main character we've all been waiting for.  The man of mystery, the one we've not seen his other persona with a huge buildup from team Jordan, the source of so many RAFO's, and...  ...  ...   ?

 

I mean, on one hand yes, we get to read a few chapters post-AMOL that kind of catch us up in a rough sort of way, but on the other hand, combined with the poor combat and mat coming off as underwhelming when throughout the entire series he uses small forces and stands major armies on their heads after soundly spanking them...no major mention of the crossbow cranks or other things.  It is obvious that BS didn't have any help in writing the battle scenes, and a lot of things were underplayed.  Mat wasn't crafty at all, Thom's knives never came into play, the Ogier were only mentioned, Demandred shows up like a badly written hail-mary for the forces of shadow uber powerful with an uber-powerful trophy that is a sa'angreal and a force of channelers and massive army we were told wouldn't be coming into play and kills or destroys all these good guys that stupidly challenge him one after another, and don't get me going on the whole crystals popping up thing, I would have understood black abysses and nothingness rather than that...not handled well at all.  It was okay overall but did not do RJ's memory justice.  It felt like BS wanted to move on to his books which were finally popular with his fame from WOT writing, Harriet wanted to wash her hands and be done because it has been years of her working on RJ's story which had to be painful, and over-editing entire arcs out of the last book and thrusting the Demandred arc into it.  I mean...what the heck was he off balefiring for the Dark One?  Might as well have Rand and Co. open a portal to the land of the madmen and flood the rear ranks of the dark one's army with the Mad Hatter and his tea-party of mad channelers to rip them to shreds or gather everyone's twins from the mirror worlds via portal stone to smash the enemy.

[Mr Ares]

Pointing out, to me, doesn't mean it should be changed ... Especially if not deliberate or malicious or overt ...to me everything is about choices and consequences ... For whatever reason RJ or BS made this choice ...it isn't without consequences, intentional or not, and pointing out the possible racial tones is one of those consequences ...to me it doesn't detract, nor add to the book ... It just "is".

 

Therefore, you're right, there might have been a point made had the Aiel been black-skinned ... But such is the nature of the society RJ, BS and the rest of us in the US live in ... For better or worse, it just "is".

Over-sensitivity to issues of race is itself problematic, or can be, and therefore should be checked.

 

I'm still wondering how we went from "It's too late to introduce a new land/culture/people into the LAST BOOK" from Team BS and your hard-hitting fans, to suddenly we have this Sharan army, Demandred WITH a Sa'angreal that is uber powerful, AND they are all fighting with trollocs.

I'm not aware of Team Jordan or BS ever saying that - it was merely the belief of the fans.

[AesSedaiGuy]

I'm still wondering how we went from "It's too late to introduce a new land/culture/people into the LAST BOOK" from Team BS and your hard-hitting fans, to suddenly we have this Sharan army, Demandred WITH a Sa'angreal that is uber powerful, AND they are all fighting with trollocs.  We've seen the king and queen equivalent from Shara in Graendal's menagerie of playthings, we see the silk merchant in the Inn, and we hear a few things from Noal, Aiel, and Seafolk about the Sharans and the Ayad villages.  Not only is it too late but the few chapters  that try to work it in get ripped out of the mainline story and then sandwiched together into a short story offered later on?

 

Demandred has been the main character we've all been waiting for.  The man of mystery, the one we've not seen his other persona with a huge buildup from team Jordan, the source of so many RAFO's, and...  ...  ...   ?

 

I mean, on one hand yes, we get to read a few chapters post-AMOL that kind of catch us up in a rough sort of way, but on the other hand, combined with the poor combat and mat coming off as underwhelming when throughout the entire series he uses small forces and stands major armies on their heads after soundly spanking them...no major mention of the crossbow cranks or other things.  It is obvious that BS didn't have any help in writing the battle scenes, and a lot of things were underplayed.  Mat wasn't crafty at all, Thom's knives never came into play, the Ogier were only mentioned, Demandred shows up like a badly written hail-mary for the forces of shadow uber powerful with an uber-powerful trophy that is a sa'angreal and a force of channelers and massive army we were told wouldn't be coming into play and kills or destroys all these good guys that stupidly challenge him one after another, and don't get me going on the whole crystals popping up thing, I would have understood black abysses and nothingness rather than that...not handled well at all.  It was okay overall but did not do RJ's memory justice.  It felt like BS wanted to move on to his books which were finally popular with his fame from WOT writing, Harriet wanted to wash her hands and be done because it has been years of her working on RJ's story which had to be painful, and over-editing entire arcs out of the last book and thrusting the Demandred arc into it.  I mean...what the heck was he off balefiring for the Dark One?  Might as well have Rand and Co. open a portal to the land of the madmen and flood the rear ranks of the dark one's army with the Mad Hatter and his tea-party of mad channelers to rip them to shreds or gather everyone's twins from the mirror worlds via portal stone to smash the enemy.

^THIS

[AesSedaiGuy]

 

Pointing out, to me, doesn't mean it should be changed ... Especially if not deliberate or malicious or overt ...to me everything is about choices and consequences ... For whatever reason RJ or BS made this choice ...it isn't without consequences, intentional or not, and pointing out the possible racial tones is one of those consequences ...to me it doesn't detract, nor add to the book ... It just "is".

Therefore, you're right, there might have been a point made had the Aiel been black-skinned ... But such is the nature of the society RJ, BS and the rest of us in the US live in ... For better or worse, it just "is".

 

Over-sensitivity to issues of race is itself problematic, or can be, and therefore should be checked.

True, but simply starting the convo or stating a possible issue, is not necessarily over-sensitivity.

[Suttree]

I'm still wondering how we went from "It's too late to introduce a new land/culture/people into the LAST BOOK" from Team BS and your hard-hitting fans, to suddenly we have this Sharan army, Demandred WITH a Sa'angreal that is uber powerful, AND they are all fighting with trollocs. We've seen the king and queen equivalent from Shara in Graendal's menagerie of playthings, we see the silk merchant in the Inn, and we hear a few things from Noal, Aiel, and Seafolk about the Sharans and the Ayad villages. Not only is it too late but the few chapters that try to work it in get ripped out of the mainline story and then sandwiched together into a short story offered later on?

We've always had answers for this that were vague. Think some fans just jumped to the wrong conclusions.

INTERVIEW: Jan 16th, 2003

COT Signing Report - Tim Kington (Paraphrased)

QUESTION

Will Shara get any screen time?

ROBERT JORDAN

Read and find out. I don't know, actually. There are things that need to happen that might have to happen there, but it will be a lot easier if I can make them happen somewhere else.

TAGS

shara,

INTERVIEW: Dec, 2010

Goodreads ToM Fantasy Book Club Q&A with Brandon Sanderson (Verbatim)

DAWN

Will we be learning any more about Shara in the last volume?

BRANDON SANDERSON

I will simply defer to what Robert Jordan on this. This is the story primarily of what we call the Westlands, or Randland (though he didn't use those terms). This is not the story of Shara or Seanchan. There will be no major action that takes place in those other realms. Interpret that as you will.

TAGS

shara, a memory of light,

INTERVIEW: 2001

Thus Spake the Creator (Paraphrased)

SIGNING REPORT (OTHER LANDS)

ROBERT JORDAN

Oh and he said he would bring the other parts of the world into the books if he needed to. So Seanchan and Shara have a shot.

TAGS

seanchan, shara,

That said the LB did seem more Light v. Shara then Light v. Shadow at times.

 

the Ogier were only mentioned,

The Ogier got a beautiful scene. It was some of Brandon's best writing in the series. We also know they had a good deal of action in the ways that was cut.

 

I mean...what the heck was he off balefiring for the Dark One?

Think we get the answer to that in River of Souls. It has to do with the Sharan prophecies.

 

Agree on much of what you said about Dem. Far too cartoony villain and the duels etc. just got absurd.

[Mr Ares]

 

 

Pointing out, to me, doesn't mean it should be changed ... Especially if not deliberate or malicious or overt ...to me everything is about choices and consequences ... For whatever reason RJ or BS made this choice ...it isn't without consequences, intentional or not, and pointing out the possible racial tones is one of those consequences ...to me it doesn't detract, nor add to the book ... It just "is".

Therefore, you're right, there might have been a point made had the Aiel been black-skinned ... But such is the nature of the society RJ, BS and the rest of us in the US live in ... For better or worse, it just "is".

Over-sensitivity to issues of race is itself problematic, or can be, and therefore should be checked.

True, but simply starting the convo or stating a possible issue, is not necessarily over-sensitivity.

The OP definitely shows signs of over-sensitivity.

[AesSedaiGuy]

I didnt think so. I don't think it was "over-sensitivity" until the second post made about not being able to recommend the series.

[Agitel]

EDIT: deleted

[Agitel]

After finishing the last book and finally ending a journey of over a decade i want to say it was nice to

finally see black/afro-type male channelers and an African/Arabian nation included in the W.O.T. world. (Shara reads like Sahara or Sub-Sahara)

 

The Sea Folk are very dark skinned. As has been said, so are some Seanchan cultures, though this wasn't elaborated upon (though Tuon herself has very dark brown skin). Taraboners actually seem to be quite Arab (and note: Tarabon), and Arad Doman seems to be Persian or Indian in parallel ethnicity (the capitol, Bandar Eban, has a name similar to many Arab/Persian cities, and some have noted that Domani is nearly an anagram of Indian). While I'm not saying it isn't a little tropey, Sharans are by far not the only examples of "brown people" in the novels, nor are all Sharans "brown people."

 

And Sharan men acted like animals because that's how they were treated. They were denigrated and abused and brainwashed into being pretty much feral. Once they could channel their intelligence wasn't recognized. It should be noted that in the Age of Legends ability to channel was detected at very young ages, younger than in the current setting. That talent may not have been lost in Shara. Another explanation is that all men born to the Ayyad families (not all of Shara) were separated and treated like cattle/studs, guilty until proven innocent. Even non-chanelling men from those families could have been used as studs as they may be "carriers" of the traits needed to be passed on. Or maybe the non-channeling ones were culled. We don't know.

[ratswot]

There is a precedent for blacks being evil in fantasy. LOTR. All the good guys where white skinned while the baddies were dark skinned.

[mrtumnas]

Lol, with the way Kate Reading did their accents in the audiobook., I pictured all Sharans as looking like Inigo Montoya.

 

 One thing I've always appreciated in the WoT was the last of racial steriotypes. Randland and Seanchan are full of different skin tones and I don't remember any character treating another differently because of it. People in that world seem oblivious to those sorts of stereotypes. Gender, on the other hand....

[ratswot]

 Gender, on the other hand....

 

LOL! I hear ya!

[AesSedaiGuy]

 

Gender, on the other hand....

 

 

LOL! I hear ya!

Now that is a topic we could go on and on about, ad nauseum. LOL

[Aulduron]

I've read these books many times, and I never thought of the Sharans as black. Tuon was the only one I remember being described as such. I even had to go back and see how other Seanchan were described. I guess I just don't pay much attention to such describers, although I do remember a couple peoples skin being derogatorily described as milk colored.

[Rhienne]

I think the Sharans are described (like the Seanchan) as having a range of skin colours, which makes sense when you look at the size of their territory.

[balefireruinssteaks]

I think you'd have to really grasp for something to try to make WOT have racist themes.  Randland isn't our land.  People may have a tendency to think of themselves as better than others (nobles) and have all the mishap characteristics of any human being but the society seems to thrive on diversity.  I can't find any examples in any of the 14 books where someone shot someone down or treated them differently just because of the colour of their skin.  In fact, most of the white characters, when describing the different ethnicities they encountered, described the darker skinned people as exotic and beautiful, something lovely to look at not something to be judged or treated differently.  Even sexual preferences were treated equally in Randland, as there are many characters who have opposite and/or same sex attractions in the world.  No one was offended or upset by this. 

 

It seems like you're looking for racism where there isn't any.  I can't imagine the story being as successful as it was if RJ had intentionally written it with a racist angle.  Don't be absurd.

[ratswot]

It seems like you're looking for racism where there isn't any.  I can't imagine the story being as successful as it was if RJ had intentionally written it with a racist angle.  Don't be absurd.

 

I don't feel there was an intentional racist angle but there could have been some subconscious race bias on the part of RJ. The OPs point about the Sharians is valid but also have you noticed how all the man characters are white? Rand, Mat, Perrin, Nynaeve, Egwene, Aviendha, Elayne, Moiraine, Lan etc, all white. There are some second tier characters who are not white e.g. Tuon.

[Rhienne]

I think its often the case that writers preferentially write most characters as their own race, whether they are black, white, asian etc.

[ratswot]

I think its often the case that writers preferentially write most characters as their own race, whether they are black, white, asian etc.

 

Hence there being racial bias on part of the author ...

[driedraspberry]

I don't feel there was an intentional racist angle but there could have been some subconscious race bias on the part of RJ. The OPs point about the Sharians is valid but also have you noticed how all the man characters are white? Rand, Mat, Perrin, Nynaeve, Egwene, Aviendha, Elayne, Moiraine, Lan etc, all white. There are some second tier characters who are not white e.g. Tuon.

But are Mat, Perrin, Nynaeve, Egwene, Lan and Moiraine actually white? Aside from Lan's blue eyes and Moiraine's pale skin (common enough amongst PoC) none of them have features that identify them as white. In fact the uncommonness of blond/red hair and lighter eyes points to otherwise. Readers are the ones that see white as default unless the character is copper skinned or outright black, which funny enough doesn't account for most PoC at all.

 

I personally  thought Rand being called out as an Aiel or an Andoran noble in the earlier books was RJ prescribing European ethnicity to him, and by "othering" him pointing out that Randland is not vastly white.

 

Taraboners actually seem to be quite Arab (and note: Tarabon), and Arad Doman seems to be Persian or Indian in parallel ethnicity (the capitol, Bandar Eban, has a name similar to many Arab/Persian cities, and some have noted that Domani is nearly an anagram of Indian).

 

Those are cultural references not ethnic ones. You'd be hard pressed to find Persians that physically resemble Domani, they're much more like Cairhienin (pale with dark hair and dark eyes, smaller of stature...).

[Tommar]

 

It seems like you're looking for racism where there isn't any.  I can't imagine the story being as successful as it was if RJ had intentionally written it with a racist angle.  Don't be absurd.

 

I don't feel there was an intentional racist angle but there could have been some subconscious race bias on the part of RJ. The OPs point about the Sharians is valid but also have you noticed how all the man characters are white? Rand, Mat, Perrin, Nynaeve, Egwene, Aviendha, Elayne, Moiraine, Lan etc, all white. There are some second tier characters who are not white e.g. Tuon.

 

 

I always pictured Moiraine as a stereotypical Cairhein which are described more like an Asian group. Lan I interpreted as Native American features based on his many descriptions. 

 

The Two Rivers folk (minus Rand) all come from a tiny village that is mostly isolated for 2000 years, I do not find it hard to believe that they all are similar in ethnicitiy. Tuon is the most powerful single character after the books conclude.

 

I am going to go look up the Graendal parts where she was dealing with Shara to see what the descriptions are there. There are plenty of bad descriptions in AMOL that I would not take that book as a reflection of the rest of the series.

[Agitel]

 

Taraboners actually seem to be quite Arab (and note: Tarabon), and Arad Doman seems to be Persian or Indian in parallel ethnicity (the capitol, Bandar Eban, has a name similar to many Arab/Persian cities, and some have noted that Domani is nearly an anagram of Indian).

 

Those are cultural references not ethnic ones. You'd be hard pressed to find Persians that physically resemble Domani, they're much more like Cairhienin (pale with dark hair and dark eyes, smaller of stature...).

 

 

I'm not going to claim that I've met many Persians, but I have met half a dozen, and most of them had bronze toned skin. The region is pretty diverse, however, so maybe I was wrong to make the comparison as a whole. Domani do have darker skin tones then characters ethnically native to the mainland setting, however.

 

As for racism in writing as a whole, authors can have biases and not be conscious of them or aware that they're writing them into the story. I'm not making any analysis about Jordan, at this moment, I'm making a general comment.