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DRAGONMOUNT

A WHEEL OF TIME COMMUNITY
Barid Bel Medar

Ask Simple questions, get simple answers (aMoL version covering the entire series)

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How similar is each turning of the wheel? Are they identical? I seem to recall RJ mentioning some things to suggest otherwise. Such as saying that Fain is an entirely new entity (but this could mean that it didn't exist in any preceding age before the last third age). It has also been implied that it is POSSIBLE for the DO to win.

The repeated Ages have been likened to a painting, seen from across the room two paintings may look the same, but get closer and the details vary, such that they're different paintings.

 

The DO has won, he hasn't had his 'ultimate' victory yet though.

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Sanderson told that Robert Jordan wrote the end.

How much of the end?

Please provide quotes and links.

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A tapestry is a woven cloth picture, often hung on walls. The analogy I guess works especially well for the world of the Wheel, because a tapestry is made out of threads.

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Laman was the King of Cairhein would cut down Avendoraldera which caused the four Aiel clans to come over the Dragonwall. Without that happening Rand would never have been born on DM.

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Laman was the King of Cairhein would cut down Avendoraldera which caused the four Aiel clans to come over the Dragonwall. Without that happening Rand would never have been born on DM.

 

So does Rand leaving with Laman's sword symbolize anything?

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Not sure if either author intended any symbolic meaning in that scene/action.

Depending on reader interpretation, it might symbolize almost anything.

 

 

unanswered::

 

Sanderson told that Robert Jordan wrote the end.

How much of the end?

Please provide quotes and links.

 

 

 

other questions::

Are the Ways still tainted or have they been cleansed?  If cleansed, when and who/what and how?

 

Does the continual killing & resurrection still occur at Hinderstap or has that situation changed?  If changed, when and who/what and how?

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Does the continual killing & resurrection still occur at Hinderstap or has that situation changed?

 

well, that was caused the the Dark Ones influence. and since he's pretty much powerless at the time, it can be assumed that it stopped, along with the rotting food, ghosts and Bubbles of evil.

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other questions::

Are the Ways still tainted or have they been cleansed?  If cleansed, when and who/what and how?

 

Interview: 2013

Reddit 2013 (WoT)

 

RazGriz3 (May 2013)

 

Was anyone else a little disappointed with the way to Ogier showed up for the Last Battle? Kinda just like "Oh yeah, we are here too." Then that was it. The scenes in which we see Ogier fighting are awesome, but I felt their introduction to the Last Battle was a little lacking. Anyone else?

 

 

Brandon Sanderson

The way they show up is actually the result of a sequence being cut. Originally, Perrin led an expedition into the Ways to try and close the Waygate in Caemlyn from behind. During this, the Ogier arrived, full of song, to drive off the Black Wind. Unfortunately, this sequence had logistical problems with the rest of the book, and had to be deleted entirely. The biggest casualty of this cut was the Ogier introduction, which didn't work nearly as well in the new sequence as it once had.

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Does the continual killing & resurrection still occur at Hinderstap or has that situation changed?

 

well, that was caused the the Dark Ones influence.

 

Was that confirmed?

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Does the continual killing & resurrection still occur at Hinderstap or has that situation changed?

 

well, that was caused the the Dark Ones influence.

 

Was that confirmed?

 

 

Yes, it was due to the pattern unraveling. Essentially it was a "bubble of evil".

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I meant confirmed by author.

 

I guess you could argue there was some natural explanation for people rising from the dead and going on mindless killing sprees night after night.

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I meant confirmed by author.

 

Come on mate, have you ever known me to provide info that hasn't been? :wink:

 

Interview: Nov 11th, 2011Wetlandernw
Is there a distinction between the "bubbles of evil" and the "Pattern unraveling" events?
Brandon Sanderson
There is a distinction, in that they are different manifestations of the same root cause: the bubbles come from the Dark One's prison and slide along the threads of the Pattern until they pop, while the Pattern unraveling is a result of balefire as well as the Dark One's direct influence. The "torn lace" icon is used for both.

 

 

Interview: Feb 22nd, 2013Question

Who was Hinderstap?

Brandon Sanderson

Hinderstap was me, that was one of my additions. Entered in because Harriet actually said, we need things to be scarier, it's the end of the world. Come up with some really cool bubbles of evil, Brandon. And here are some examples of things that Robert Jordan came up with. Be freaky. And I did my best.

 

Edited by Suttree

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I meant confirmed by author.

 

it's not caused by either monkeys or the mole people.

that leaves only th Dark One left with that kind of power

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to Suttree::

thanks for the quotes

 

to Rob::

I do not recall either monkeys or mole people being in this series.

Fain was one possibility I considered when I first read the scene.

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If the DO has the souls of all who have served him, how can the souls be reborn into the pattern. Im thinking of RJ' quote that the dragon has been turned to the dark in past turning of the wheel, wouldnt the DO own his soul for ever? I understand that for a non channeler redemption is quite possible but for someone who can channell the bond is pretty solid ( bet ya Verin was in trouble when she died) . In aMoL there is reference in the meeting between forsaken of the souls being punished for eternity,( moggy pov the souls in the sea) wouldnt the DO just do the same to the dragon if he had his soul? Rand says to moridin that the DO will never let him go, but he has to at some point, right? Other wise how does Isamael and indeed all the forsaken have the freedom to forsake the light and swear to him in the first place? They must be free to follow him again. If that makes any sense.

Or are all souls released when the DO is put back in his prison?

Edited by damandred

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That is a very interesting question.

I had a theory from the very first book, and I had intended to post it here to ensure that I could say I told you so, but unfortunately I never fleshed it out enough for here or theory land.

 

Anyway the idea was:

 

That the Dark One has so many souls and that is why the population of the world keeps shrinking and lands keep fading, He is keeping souls from being reborn because they are His. When Rand died I expected him to (pre-transmigration) go to the Pit of Doom and save these souls thus allowing the world's population to grow again - and further emphasising the Jesus parallel.

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The most likely explanation is he has access to them when there is a bore. I can't say for certain, so correct me if anyone has anything that says differently, but this was just a common belief of the people, not cut and dried by RJ that DO=have souls forever.

 

I'd say this was a belief formed over the 2 ages, because for them the DO has never been absent since his discovery. Since the DO has had access to those sworn to him for over 3000 years, people would begin to believe this was forever. However, if the DO's access to the Pattern is cut off, it would be logical to say his access to souls are cut off as well. 

 

This is a bit different for Grey Men, who's souls are actually 'consumed' by the DO and vanish from the pattern completely, but ordinary souls sworn to the DO, I would say were bound to him as long as he had contact with the world. When that contact was severed by Rand re-sealing the bore perfectly, he can no longer affect the souls.

 

It may even be simply a tactic used to scare the life out of Darkfriends. Consider how transmigration works. The DO - according to RJ - has a window of opportunity to 'catch' the soul of a dead person, and put them in a new body. Balefire shortens and usually erases the window of opportunity so they are beyond his grasp. This time must be very small, since it is almost impossible to transmigrate someone who has been balefired and must be an extremely weak weave. 

 

It's possible that the DO has caught failures' souls to torment - as we see in Moridin's dreamshard. After 3000 years, the belief that the DO has someone's soul forever would not be strange, as a world WITHOUT the DO is not really known. Taking into account the restrictions on the DO's ability to 'capture' and transmigrate souls, it would be reasonable to suggest that when he is sealed out of the world, his hold over those already captured is cut, and his ability to affect any other souls is destroyed. 

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But where are those souls stored? Are they in the pit of doom? What is the pit of doom? Is it the bore?

I think Barid Bel is most probibly right.

I have a theory that the rand/third age incarnation of the dragon could not have been turned, so that RJ and Ishys claim that the dragon had served the DO had to be about LTT/second age dragon, which leaves the question. If LTT turned to the shadow how was he reborn as Rand in the next age? The only answer i can come up with is...... balefire.

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Damandred: Honestly, I can only speculate and my guess is as good as yours. This is all just supposition, but I think the souls are just 'held' by the DO, not actually taken out of the Pattern. I doubt they could survive that kind of thing. My bet is they are 'held' somewhere near the DO - so perhaps the Pit of Doom - where he has close control, but they are still a part of the Pattern. Once the DO is sealed perfectly again, he loses the control because he is removed totally from the Pattern, where he can't put his proverbial 'hand' on them. 

 

I think what Damandred means re: turning is that the 2nd Age was doomed to be imperfect sealing of the bore and that the LTT Dragon was not the 'perfect' Rand Dragon form. So while it is teh same soul, i believe the idea he's trying to get across is that the Dragon would have likely been turned in a 2nd Age, LTT incarnation, where the DO is not completely defeated, thus ending in a draw. The Rand, 3rd Age incarnation is essential however, and NEEDS to win completely, whereas the LTT incarnation doesn't. That imperfect sealing could perhaps be done by another. 

 

So the Dragon Soul going over to the Shadow would likely have to be in one of the lesser Ages of importance, like the LTT stage, but he has never gone over in the critical 3rd Age period. 

 

Edit: Just saw the second part of your post Damandred. I would say Balefire is the easiest option. A Dark Dragon would presumably have to be killed before a total victory could be achieved. There's also the possibility - less likely - that the Dragon turns back to the Light.

 

If they say the DO has someone's soul forever once they are sworn to him, what do you make of the saying that it is never too late to turn back to the Light? (or whatever the exact wording is?) Personally, I think these are sayings people have come up with not through any truth, but rather a philosophical approach because of their experiences. It is very important to remember that none of the characters have known an age where the DO has been sealed away again, nor do they know it is possible. We get Herid Fel musing about it, and of course we as the reader know the circular nature of the Pattern, but the majority of people don't. 

 

Take Lanfear -who I believe says something to the effect you can never be free of the DO. I would say that comes from her thinking that the DO is always present. None of the Forsaken or Darkfriends believe that it's possible for the Light to win and defeat the DO, so a world where the DO is not to some degree influencing the Pattern is unknown. Hence the belief they cannot escape. After all, 3000 years is a very long time for human society. If we think of it in terms of our world, written history - excepting cave paintings of course - doesn't go THAT far beyond 3000 years. We know relatively little of 3000 years ago with all of our technology. The 3rd Age has dramatically less, as a Renascence-like technology level with a bit of extra 'tech' in the form of Aes Sedai and the remnants of ter'angreal. So I think we should be careful in taking their word for it as straight out fact (unless RJ said it somewhere, but I can't recall it.) 

 

Also, it could be something deceptively simple. Rand is not always in 'Dragon' mode. RJ could have been sneaky and meant that Rand's soul turned in one of his uneventful lives. (Not likely, but possible. I'd say not because I believe that Rand's Dragon mode is specifically there for when the DO is free, and his uneventful lives are when the DO is sealed, but just putting it out there for thought.) 

 

Not exactly straight forward, and we probably won't get a definite answer, but I believe that there are reasonable explanations, rather than just an error by RJ. (But it could be a mistake as well, we just don't know) 

Edited by Barid Bel Medar

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