How much of the fondness for Damane is genuine?

[EmperorAllspice]

It's something that's been bothering me ever since the Seanchan first appeared.

 

Do Sul'dam genuinely care for their Damane? I mean, I know they're fond of them sometimes. As in, are there Sul'dam who care about them to the point where they might even give their life to protect a damane? When reading scenes about Damane I'm always disturbed, finding it cute and disturbed that I'm finding it cute.

 

I ask because I'm imagining how well a "A boy and his dog" type story would work with Sul'dam and Damane.

[Whizbang]

A Girl and Her Damane?

 

Hmmm... That's a good question. I would imagine that no sul'dam would ever lay down her life for a damane. For one, they are primarily used in battle, and so a sul'dam knows that a damane might die in any given battle. Maybe there are a few that are too talented to waste on battle (like how Egwene was going to be used to find ore deposits) that might be avoid this acceptance/detatchment from the sul'dam. But then there is the assumption that damane are inherently evil/bad. Maybe there have been a few sul'dam/damane pairs over the years that would have a relationship where the sul'dam will take a bullet for the damane, but I imagine that is extremely rare.

 

But, it is an interesting idea.

[Kathleen]

The other thing to keep in mind is that whatever pain/damage comes to a Suldam is doubled to the Damane. So, even if the Suldam does take a blow for the Damane, it would only double the suffering the Damane would have had. 

[EmperorAllspice]

what if a sul'dam dies? Would the Damane die?

 

Then I guess there could be a kinda situation where the Sul'dam is trapped and lets the Damane go and orders her to run away.

[Elaevia]

I think they care for damane, but in the same way a farmer might care for a working animal. They would want to protect their investment of the time they spent training the damane, but unless they are rarely talented, you would just find another damane that could also do the job.

 

I don't think a sul'dam would let a damane go, if they were trapped/ dying etc. the sul'dam (and a lot of damane) believe that uncollered woman who can channel are dangerous and untrustworthy. The sul'dam risk their lives when catching these women, I can't see them just letting them go.

 

Interesting question about if the sul'dam dies. The damane would probably be stuck (as no-one would be 'completing' the a'dam) if they weren't suffering from the shock of feeling whatever the sul'dam did (at the very least).

[Ozzie_aiel]

Not so much livestock as hunting hounds.

 

I believe killing a Suldam will also kill the Damane; this was in TGH.

 

I wonder how much affection for damane comes from the affinity that women chanellers can feel towards eachother?

[EmperorAllspice]

Also, a Sul'dam in Winter's Heart mentions that she hates having to break a Damane's spirit. She doesn't like meek Damane.

 

Um... why WOULDN'T you want a meek Damane who does whatever she's told? Surely they wouldn't want a headstrong Damane who speaks out of turn

[Elaevia]

We see a couple of examples of damane calling out, warning sul'dam of women preparing to channel etc. maybe 'meek' damane are less likely to do that? Like they will do what you say, but no more or less and always to the letter, where as a 'non-meek' damane will work with you at bit more? But it's a very fine line as to what is acceptable and what is not I imagine.

 

I think you are right with the hunting hound analogy. Valued but ...... needing training to be of any value: if not just a rapid dog roaming the countryside.

[EmperorAllspice]

They have "prettiest Damane" contests. I wonder if that's a military thing or if there are privately owned Damane raised just to be put in shows.

 

The culture of the Seanchan is really interesting. I almost want to see a caring Sul'dam/Damane pairing who learn how wrong their culture is and become friends as opposed to owner/pet

[Hagazussa]

Do Sul'dam genuinely care for their Damane? I mean, I know they're

fond of them sometimes. As in, are there Sul'dam who care about them to

the point where they might even give their life to protect a damane?

When reading scenes about Damane I'm always disturbed, finding it cute

and disturbed that I'm finding it cute.

 

I think it is shown again and again that yes many sul'dam honestly care for their damane and I think many would grieve if their favorite damane where to die. However caring about someone and being willing to die for them is something quite different. I have a cat, her name is Maude and she is the cutest thing, I love her dearly and would grieve if she died, but that do not mean I would die for her. I buy the best food I can for my cat, I make sure she have everything she needs and I want her to be happy, but that do not mean I treat her like I would another human being or that I would lay down my life to protect her and I think it is the same with sul'dam and damane, many honestly care, but not like you would care for another human being, damane is seen as and treated as intelligent animals.

 

I find the concept of damane cute as well, and I am not disturbed that I find it cute, I have always been interested in that kind of relationships of dominance and submission in is one thing that really fascinate me, another thing that really fascinate me is magick, so when I can get both in one I am one happy girl.

 

Then I guess there could be a kinda situation where the Sul'dam is trapped and lets the Damane go and orders her to run away.

 

I doubt this would happen, I am sure many sul'dam would want to let their damane go to save them if they themselves are trapped, but they consider damane to be to dangerous to let go free so I think they would allow their loved one to die rather than risk a loose channeler running around.

 

Also, a Sul'dam in Winter's Heart mentions that she hates having to break a Damane's spirit. She doesn't like meek Damane.

 

Um... why WOULDN'T you want a meek Damane who does whatever she's

told? Surely they wouldn't want a headstrong Damane who speaks out of

turn

 

There is a huge difference between broken and obedient. Take the military, they want men and women who do what they are told, but they do not want their soldiers to be meek and broken. Let me take an example. In my best friend growing up's household the leader of the family was the father and his wife was obedient to him, they had a warm and loving relationship but when he spoke she listened and did what she was told, that is obedience. In another relationship in my home town a wife abused her husband almost to death, she broke the bones in his arms hitting him with the vacuum cleaner and poked forks in his belly and she denied him food, the guy did not dare say a pip without his wife's approval and even after he was rescued he was scared of his own shadow and if someone told him to jump in front of a car I think he would have done so, he had been hurt until he hardly had any ability to think for himself anymore, that is being broken.

 

Yes the sul'dam want an obedient damane, but they probably want one who can think and act and be complete beings and not one who is just hurt until there is nothing left of them. Also in addition sul'dam generally do not feel any ill will towards damane, they want them to be happy within the confines of the a'dam and the role they have in society, most probably do not want to cause the kind of mental and physical pain needed to break a damane's spirit. remember on the boat from Seanchan Tuon have one of her damane caned for giving her a divination she did not like, (I wonder if that would fly on a New Age fair :P), and the sul'dam in charge of the unfortunate diviner did not like having to hurt her, she did it but she did not like it. Being a sul'dam do not mean you enjoy causing damane pain.

 

They have "prettiest Damane" contests. I wonder if that's a military

thing or if there are privately owned Damane raised just to be put in

shows.

 

There is privately owned damane as anyone with enough money to buy them and cove the cost of employing one or more sul'dam to take care of them can have one, but they are probably to valuable for most to have just to put in shows, though perhaps some high nobles do and if you have very weak damane like those who can only light a candle or levitate a sewing needle such women might be kept just as pets, though off course for a so weak channeler to be a sparker would be extremely rare so there is probably not many of them. But if Morgase went to Seanchan she might be kept, just as a pet and put in shows.

[Agitel]

Channelers are considered to be working animals/pets by sul'dam, not people. The affection is genuine, in that sense.

 

There's a different between obedient and meek, too. Meek is timid, afraid to act, etc . . . Maybe a sul'dam likes a damane with some spirit or even initiative, but still loyal.

 

I mean, when you get a dog, whether as a pet or a working dog, would you want one that does its "job" eagerly and enthusiastically? Or one that shies away from you with its tail between its legs and only does what you say in that meek manner?

[GardenGnome]

They are seen exactly as intelligent animals. The Big White Book gives a list of the rankings of the animal trainers, based on what they trained and if they were der'morat or 'morat (master trainers or not). The "exotic" aka Portal World animals were ranked higher, but at the top were the Der'suldam. They are the most prestigious animals to work with.

[BFG]

what if a sul'dam dies? Would the Damane die?

 

Then I guess there could be a kinda situation where the Sul'dam is trapped and lets the Damane go and orders her to run away.

 

I doubt that a sul'dam would ever release a damane of their own free will, and even if they did the damane (if she had come over from Seanchan, or been successfully converted from Randland) would be useless.

[Rhienne]

I think if the relationship really is one of owner-pet then their could be a lot of fondness.  I know some people who would rather go through pain themselves than see their dogs hurt.

 

However, I think the evidence from the books suggest that the relationship is more of a master-working animal relationship.  Think gun-dogs.  They are often extremely loyal and intelligent dogs, and their owns have a great deal of trust and pride in them.  However, there is no relationship between that, and while the masters are often fond of their dogs, they don't share an affectionate bond.

[Myrelle Green]

Isn't there a passage (I think it would have to be in TGH) where Egwene is told of some Sul'dams having sex with "their" damane? The person telling Eg was quite disgusted with the practice.

[Hagazussa]

I doubt that a sul'dam would ever release a damane of their own free

will, and even if they did the damane (if she had come over from

Seanchan, or been successfully converted from Randland) would be

useless.

 

I do not think the question was would a sul'dam release a damane and send her on her way to be free, but let us say a sul'dam got trapped under some debris when a building collapses, there is no one around to help her and she knew her favored damane will die from the shock of her own death and that she is suffering terribly by feeling doubly what her sul'dam is feeling and will continue to do so up until the leash holder draw her last breath. Would the sul'dam then take the a'dam of her damane and tell her to go and find another sul'dam and surrender or would she let the other woman die as well? I personally think that in most cases a sul'dam would take a damane with her in death even if she was reasonably sure the other woman would heed her words and not try to run away, she would not take the chance to release a channeler into the general public even if she might grieve that it would cost her damane her life.

 

However, I think the evidence from the books suggest that the

relationship is more of a master-working animal relationship.  Think

gun-dogs.  They are often extremely loyal and intelligent dogs, and

their owns have a great deal of trust and pride in them.  However, there

is no relationship between that, and while the masters are often fond

of their dogs, they don't share an affectionate bond.

 

I do not know, I have grown up in an area with allot of farms so allot of people I know have working animals and hunting dogs and many of them have very affectionate relationships with those animals.

 

Isn't there a passage (I think it would have to be in TGH) where Egwene

is told of some Sul'dams having sex with "their" damane? The person

telling Eg was quite disgusted with the practice.

 

I can not remember a passage that say some sul'dam have sex with their damane, but I am sure it happens, let us keep it real, damane is prevented from seeking sexual relations and the sul'dam is often avoided because they work with channelers, some are going to seek a little loving with one another with our without both parties being willing, but I do not think it is a accepted practice, that would be more like a scandal that was in the news over here in Norway a while ago where some society ladies had been found to have the habit of smearing honey on their...em...oh ta tas and then give a treat to their poodles. I think most in Seanchan would see a sul'dam having sex with their damane in about the same light as most would see a woman and her poodle doing it. But I do remember a passage in the books but I do not remember which one where someone told Matt that men was not allowed in the damane kennels as there was a problem with some men having sex with damane and the person saying it was really disgusted at it and Matt was all, who would want to have sex with a woman chained to the wall? I remember the passage for I remember thinking when reading it, ah the sweet innocence of someone who have never been on the internet. :P

[EmperorAllspice]

 

 

Isn't there a passage (I think it would have to be in TGH) where Egwene

is told of some Sul'dams having sex with "their" damane? The person

telling Eg was quite disgusted with the practice.

 

I can not remember a passage that say some sul'dam have sex with their damane, but I am sure it happens, let us keep it real, damane is prevented from seeking sexual relations and the sul'dam is often avoided because they work with channelers, some are going to seek a little loving with one another with our without both parties being willing, but I do not think it is a accepted practice, that would be more like a scandal that was in the news over here in Norway a while ago where some society ladies had been found to have the habit of smearing honey on their...em...oh ta tas and then give a treat to their poodles. I think most in Seanchan would see a sul'dam having sex with their damane in about the same light as most would see a woman and her poodle doing it. But I do remember a passage in the books but I do not remember which one where someone told Matt that men was not allowed in the damane kennels as there was a problem with some men having sex with damane and the person saying it was really disgusted at it and Matt was all, who would want to have sex with a woman chained to the wall? I remember the passage for I remember thinking when reading it, ah the sweet innocence of someone who have never been on the internet. :P

That was a scene from Winter's Heart. It was that whole scene that made me make this thread in the first place XD

[Elaevia]

I the sul'dam trapped scenario, if it was a favoured damane she may take the bracket off. Yes that would leave the damane defenceless and unable to move, but alive still. I don't think they'd consider taking the collar off.

[Hagazussa]

I the sul'dam trapped scenario, if it was a favoured damane she may take

the bracket off. Yes that would leave the damane defenceless and unable

to move, but alive still. I don't think they'd consider taking the

collar off.

 

Good point I did not consider that, but let us say taking the bracelet off will not help, let us say the two was trapped in a burning building or there was a war around their ears or in other ways the damane needed to get away to survive. I also think the sul'dam would not take the collar of, but I think many of them would really wish they could. part of what makes the whole situation with damane so horrible is not that they are hated or that the sul'dam are trying to be cruel or evil, it is that they honestly think they are doing what is best for all parties involved. Often misguided kindness can be worse than intentional malice, and is usually be allot more creepy.

[EmperorAllspice]

Also, are male chanelers killed on sight in Seanchan just because they lack male oriented A'dam or because they consider male chanelers worse than female ones?

[Barid Bel Medar]

Because of the Taint. It is highly unlikely they would collar male channelers if they did have male a'dam's to use. 

[Dagon Thyne]

It's like fondness for a pet dog.  You love them when they are cuddling next to you, and licking your face, but if they bite you, or crap on the carpet, you can be harsh with them, and punish them severely.   

[EmperorAllspice]

Because of the Taint. It is highly unlikely they would collar male channelers if they did have male a'dam's to use. 

Then... what do they think female chanelers are gonna do if left uncollared?

[Barid Bel Medar]

 

Because of the Taint. It is highly unlikely they would collar male channelers if they did have male a'dam's to use. 

Then... what do they think female chanelers are gonna do if left uncollared?

 

Females = Dogs who can blast your face off. 

 

Males = Rabid wolves who can blast your face off. 

 

The females can be subjugated and trained, however, then men are insane and unable to be "domesticated". 

 

It's really a stupid reasoning. But so is racism. Believing someone is lesser because their skin is a different colour. 

 

However, the Seanchan at least have some grounds for their fears. Channelers are powerful beings who are much stronger than the average human. They believe that their power is unnatural and makes them monsters. In part because of Ishamael's influence, and the fact that when they arrived on the Seanchan continent, the Aes Sedai were despotic leaders who they saw as tyrants. 

 

Over time, it got out of hand, and now they are thought of as dogs basically. 

[Hagazussa]

Also, are male chanelers killed on sight in Seanchan just because

they lack male oriented A'dam or because they consider male chanelers

worse than female ones?

 

First of all male channelers go insane so even if they could be controlled it would be little point in training them as they would soon be to far gone to be useful and then they would start to rot while they where still alive, also the male a'dam is dangerous to use for the women using them and the control start to bleed both ways, it is just not practical to try to make damane out of male channelers, at least not pre cleansing.

 

Then... what do they think female chanelers are gonna do if left uncollared?

 

They think they are going to take over the place and become tyrants, or use their abilities willy nilly and hurt people. To make an comparison think of X-Men most of those that push for mutant registration do not do so because they think the mutants are evil, but they fear what people with that much more power then regular human beings can do if they decide to. It is preemptive so to speak, control the channelers just in case they decide to try something, since channelers in WoT get pretty darn powerful.

 

It's like fondness for a pet dog.  You love them when they are

cuddling next to you, and licking your face, but if they bite you, or

crap on the carpet, you can be harsh with them, and punish them

severely.  

 

I just have to be a bit of a party pooper and say something here, even if I do not think you are saying that one should hurt a dog that crap on the carpet it still need to be said as often as possible. If a dog crap inside or is aggressive 99 percent of the times it is either the owner that have done a mistake in training the dog or the animal is sick and in either case one should not punish the dog, marking that this is unacceptable is enough and one do not need to hurt the dog to do that. Just so that it is said, sorry for going off topic.