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The 'No More RAFO' Thread--Existing Questions

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I've gone the whole series believing that the Dark One really wanted to destroy the world. It seemed logical that Moridin, the Nae'blis, would know the DO's desires better than the rest of the Forsaken. Yet now we've basically been told no, Moridin was lied to and the rest of the Forsaken were closer to the truth. Now we've been told the DO couldn't even destroy the Pattern if he wanted to, no matter what. 

 

Additionally, Moridin talks about his punishment for believing he was the DO as being brought back to life. Well if that is the case, why didn't he just commit suicide or allow one of the other Forsaken to balefire him. Even the DO couldn't bring him back if that happened.

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I've gone the whole series believing that the Dark One really wanted to destroy the world. It seemed logical that Moridin, the Nae'blis, would know the DO's desires better than the rest of the Forsaken. Yet now we've basically been told no, Moridin was lied to and the rest of the Forsaken were closer to the truth. Now we've been told the DO couldn't even destroy the Pattern if he wanted to, no matter what. 

 

Additionally, Moridin talks about his punishment for believing he was the DO as being brought back to life. Well if that is the case, why didn't he just commit suicide or allow one of the other Forsaken to balefire him. Even the DO couldn't bring him back if that happened.

 

If he were to commit suicide, the DO can just bring him back. Perhaps the other Forsaken were instructed not to balefire him.

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Do you really think that any of the Forsaken would kill Moridin against the DO's wishes and risk the DO's wrath? 

 

Oh, they all contemplate getting rid of him for certain, but they don't do it because he is in favour with the DO. They have to wait until he slips up - or make him slip up without the DO implicating them. 

 

I highly doubt that if Moridin came and said "Hey guys, I want to die, but the DO keeps bringing me back. Can one of you guys balefire me so the DO can't get to me?", any of them would take up the offer. 

 

Plus, Moridin doesn't just want to die - he wants eternal death. It is a bit stupid really, he wouldn't have memories of Elan when he was reborn again, so it shouldn't really matter. However, it's the moral of it for him (hah). He is sick of the repetitive, endless Wheel. He thinks that he is spun out as the Shadow's counter to the Dragon - he hates himself for it - apparently - so he wants everything to end. 

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The Dark One isnt omniscient. With compulsion, dread lords, etc at their disposal Moridin could have easily been killed without Shai'tan knowing who was behind it.

 

Secondly, even if you disagree with that, Moridin could have intentionally made mistakes or even 'turned to the Light' to bring about his demise.

 

While I agree that this ultimately wouldn't fulfill Moridin's goals, I point it out only to take issue with this statement:

 

(AMOL Chapter 30)

 

"'You thought you were the Dark One, didn't you? Has he punished you for that?'

'Yes,' Moridin snarled. 'He returned me to life.'"

 

I suppose one could argue he believed the Dark One could grant him oblivion without the destruction of the Pattern, in which case it would make sense.

 

In the end it seemed Moridin was an afterthought almost. He did nothing in this book except lend his body and power to Rand. Rand's foil? Hardly.

 

Instead of the weird time slowdown, why not keep Rand and Moridin in the field of play up until shortly before Logain obtains the seals? It gives the Nae'blis an opportunity to prove his ability lends credibility to Demandred's arc. I know it would require some major changes to AMOL, but it would get rid of the ridiculous duels, for one.

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Yeah, Dreadlord compulsion etc.. is a good point. I was only talking about the other Forsaken. 

 

I agree with your last point, it would have been much better. 

 

Although, I still think Demandred's arc makes sense enough (although certainly it strains credibility. 

 

Demandred's fault is that he actually overestimates Rand. 

 

I mean, he knows Taim has the Seals. 

 

It was an incredibly insane and really quite stupid thing of Rand to do - going to Shayol Ghul without the Seals secured. That was of course because he planned to kill the DO. Which in itself was a crazy plan. Even though it worked out in the end, it was still an incredibly silly thing to do. Demandred didn't think Rand would be so brash/stupid. He was too focused on Lews Therin's personality rather than seeing the changes in Rand. 

 

Overall though, it actually wasn't a bad assessment of what Rand would do. Indeed, Demandred was almost spot-on. If Rand didn't take the incredible risk of going to Shayol Ghul without the Seals etc.. He would have confronted Demandred. 

 

As to why Demandred didn't go to Shayol Ghul - he wanted to fight Rand on his own ground. He didn't expect Rand to be locked in a struggle with the DO for - what seemed like- weeks. He acknowledged that Rand could be at Shayol Ghul - but he also surmised that he would come to confront Demandred if he caused enough pain and death. 

 

Which again, is exactly what Rand wanted to do. It was lucky he was unable to do so really. 

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This question might have been addressed already but it's to late for me to go sifting through the furum posts. It regards Garath Brin...I don't understand how Grendale was able to effect him with compostion through dreams he was a Warder at the time and I thought warders dreams were shielded as part of the bond?

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This question might have been addressed already but it's to late for me to go sifting through the furum posts. It regards Garath Brin...I don't understand how Grendale was able to effect him with compostion through dreams he was a Warder at the time and I thought warders dreams were shielded as part of the bond?

 

I thought this was the case too.  I'm pretty sure it says somewhere in the books that they are safe from Dreamwalkers.  I think in Graendal's case though she was using TAR to find the generals, then stepping out of it use compulsion on them, so not sure whether that would fall under the same envelope.

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I suppose if that was the case then it would work. It was mentioned by Moirane to Perrin in The Dragon Reborn he actually asks her at the end of the conversation if he could do for him what she does to LAN to shield his dreams to witch she says I already have a warden and will only have one. But it is mentioned in the books that warders dreams are shielded.

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Dunno if this classifies as RAFO but:

 

- Who the hell was Elyas's Ace Sedai?

I'm pretty sure this is revealed in New Spring.

Rina Hafden of the Green Ajah.  In NS Moiraine takes a note into the Green Ajah quarters and sees Rina watching Elyas spar with her other Warder in the corridor.

 

Edit:  She is still his Aes Sedai.  Rina has masked the bond but not broken it.

Edited by Rhienne

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Dunno if this classifies as RAFO but:

 

- Who the hell was Elyas's Ace Sedai?

I'm pretty sure this is revealed in New Spring.

Rina Hafden of the Green Ajah.  In NS Moiraine takes a note into the Green Ajah quarters and sees Rina watching Elyas spar with her other Warder in the corridor.

 

Edit:  She is still his Aes Sedai.  Rina has masked the bond but not broken it.

Thanks.Wish there was some kind of resolution in AMOL btw Elyas and his Ace Sedai.

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This question might have been addressed already but it's to late for me to go sifting through the furum posts. It regards Garath Brin...I don't understand how Grendale was able to effect him with compostion through dreams he was a Warder at the time and I thought warders dreams were shielded as part of the bond?

 

The Fires of Heaven, Ch 6, Gateways (Conversation b/w Lanfear & Rand):

 

“You ward your dreams against me.”

“Against everyone.” That was simple truth, though she was at least as prominent in the list as the Wise Ones.

“Dreams are mine. You and your dreams are mine especially.” Her face remained smooth, but her voice hardened. “I can break through your warding. You would not like it.”

 

If Lanfear could break into dreams warded by Rand, then I'm sure Graendal could break into a warder's dreams as well

Edited by ljtibbs

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Would she know how the Warder Bond was something that was unknown in the Age of Legands, and I would think that would only apply to a ward that was woven using the One Power. It would seem to me that if there was something that was granted on becoming a warder that there wouldn't be anything to attack the would just be immune to having their dreams attacked nothing to work with or pull apart like a ward woven with the OP.

Edited by Angelhydes

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Would she know how the Warder Bond was something that was unknown in the Age of Legands, and I would think that would only apply to a ward that was woven using the One Power. It would seem to me that if there was something that was granted on becoming a warder that there wouldn't be anything to attack the would just be immune to having their dreams attacked nothing to work with or pull apart like a ward woven with the OP.

 

The Warder bond is a weave with the One Power.

 

And we've seen that Dreaming and Dreamwalking talents are completely unrelated to the One Power, so I don't think there'd have to be anything there to 'pull apart' with the OP.

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Dunno if this classifies as RAFO but:

 

- Who the hell was Elyas's Ace Sedai?

I'm pretty sure this is revealed in New Spring.

Rina Hafden of the Green Ajah.  In NS Moiraine takes a note into the Green Ajah quarters and sees Rina watching Elyas spar with her other Warder in the corridor.

 

Edit:  She is still his Aes Sedai.  Rina has masked the bond but not broken it.

 

I always thought that she was the damane that Egwene was with in TGH.  I seem to recall her telling Egwene to remember her name as Renna (I believe her damane name was Pura or Mylen but not 100% on that).  Then in a later book, Elyas mentions that his Aes Sedai's name was Renna as well.  Could be mistaken though, been a while since I did my last read through.

 

On a side note, if this is the case is she still considered Aes Sedai or is she considered a damane?

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Rina Hafdan(Elyas was her warder) is a totally different AS. She was a Sitter in the WT and has remained so after the schism is over.

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Not sure if this was specifically RAFO'd, but many questions concerning the Ways were never answered.  

Why did they turn "dark" and decay?  Was it the taint?  If so, once the taint was cleansed, did they start to get better?  Did they cease to get worse?

What was the origin of Machin Shin?  Was it really following Rand?  If so, how and why?  Was it linked to Paidan Fain?

 

I always had a theory that Machin Shin was made of the disembodied souls of the Aes Sedai that tried to destroy the Waygate in the Blight.  I thought maybe it backfired and sucked their souls into the Ways and over time, they came to hate the "bodied" and so they absorbed everyone they caught which gave them/it more and more power.

 

The Ways themselves seemed to be a plot devise that was overused at the beginning (IMHO) but then just kind of dropped.  After the Battle in the Two Rivers, everything related to the Ways was offscreen with little or no explanation, including the much debated seemingly impossible invasion of Caemlyn.

 

By the end, I really wasn't expecting there to be an explanation, but maybe it can be included in the second Encyclopedia.

Edited by Zafnib

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Not sure if this was specifically RAFO'd, but many questions concerning the Ways were never answered.

Why did they turn "dark" and decay? Was it the taint? If so, once the taint was cleansed, did they start to get better? Did they cease to get worse?

Interview: Sep 2nd, 2005

DragonCon Report - Isabel (Paraphrased)

Question

Someone had a question about Machin Shin in the Ways. Since it seems to absorb the creatures that pass through there, could you regard it as a servant of the Dark One or perhaps almost as a Forsaken?

Robert Jordan

It's not a servant of the Dark One. It will kill Trollocs or anything else. You can say it's a parasite that grew in the Ways because of the taint and the One Power that was used to initially create the Ways. The talisman of growing that was used to extend the Ways. So it's not a servant of the Dark One, but it's definitely on the evil side.

Question

Would it be cleaned with the Cleansing of saidin?

Robert Jordan

No. Its like a bacteria breed. Just by cleaning up the chemicals that caused the bacteria to come into existence, unless it's feeding on that, those chemicals, you are not going to destroy the bacteria. You simply cut off what helped to create it.

 

Edited by Suttree

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What was the origin of Machin Shin? 

Linked to the taint in some way.  There are a couple of theories about it - i) that Machin shin was part of the original Ways but had a good function (e.g. carrying someone directly from one Waygate to another), and its function changed to what it is today with the taint; ii) its a remnant of the War of the Shadow trapped in the Ways, iii) the wind was a parasite on the Ways that was corrupted by the taint; iv) spawned from the evil in Shadar Logoth (this would explain why Fain is apparently able to control it).

 

Was it linked to Padan Fain?

Machin shin caght Fain in the Ways in the EotW but instead of consuming him/driving him insane it recognised him as something as evil as itself and fled from him.

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The answer to Machin Shin is in the quote above. It isn't linked to the evil of Shadar Logoth.

Interview: Sep 2nd, 2005DragonCon Report - Isabel (Paraphrased) Question In The Great Hunt when Rand, Mat and Perrin are trying to enter the Ways, Machin Shin is waiting there for them. It seems like Padan Fain has been waiting there for them. Is Machin Shin in any way related to the evil of Shadar Logoth?Robert Jordan In some ways. Machin Shin is linked or you might say drawn to that. It's not a matter of linked, but more attracted by. In much the same ways as I spoke about the evils being attracted to one another due to opposite polarities. (Shadar Logoth and the taint)In the same way there is an attraction because Machin Shin was created in effect by the taint. It grew out. You can see is at a fungus that was constructed with the wrong type of materials. If you think about it as that way you get a more idea about its true nature.

As for the relationship between it and Fain:

Interview: Oct 9th, 1996ACOS Signing Report - Erica Sadun (Paraphrased) Question What is Fain? Robert Jordan Mordeth + person. Mordeth is a human-made evil. The Black Wind gets along with Mordeth because of professional courtesy.

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