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DRAGONMOUNT

A WHEEL OF TIME COMMUNITY

Nae'blis

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  1. LoC, Prologue It would be easy to just dismiss this as contradiction, if it weren't for the balefire rule. So, given AMOL, how do we interpret this?
  2. The very fact that the Creator 'does not interfere' should be enough to make him impossible to kill. Consider: it was the Dark One's own meddling that allowed him to be sucked into the Pattern. Rand notes that it was only inside the Pattern- inside of time- that he could be killed. Rand wouldn't have been able to draw Shai'tan in if he had never allowed access to the True Power. So, by virtue of his non-interfering quality he shouldn't be kill-able, even if he is in all other respects 'equal' to Shai'tan. Edited for too many commas.
  3. When the DO is completely sealed off, he is unable to influence people. Their ability to choose good or evil is 50/50. However, he exists as the personification of evil, so the ability to choose evil itself is some quality which owes as its roots the DO's existence. That doesn't mean that when he is sealed off, he is still 'influencing' the Pattern actively, it just means that on its own, the Pattern was designed to be incorporate balance, which requires the DO's existence. He doesn't have to lend any power to the Wheel, evil exists in Randland intrinsically because of the DO's existence in reality at all. What that means is, yes the Pattern either 'allowed' the Bore to be drilled, or actively made it happen. Now why that occurred is the true mystery. The answer lies in the resolution of the "a world without choice=bad" vs "the wheel weaves as the wheel wills" dichotomy. Perhaps the Wheel allows for the maximum possible choice without destruction, even if that means very, very limited choices sometimes. I don't know.
  4. Elan, Going into this book I would not have thought it possible that Shai'tan could be destroyed. I also did not buy into the theories that called for Fain to be used to seal the Bore, or any Fain becoming the Dark One theory. I still take issue with the idea that the DO could be killed. But it is all we have to go on. Add that to Fain's rebirth as Shaisam, his ability to control Mashadar, the duality of the Wheel, and his descriptions of Rand and the DO as ancient enemies/friends. And it is clear that there is some significance to Fain.
  5. Could Fain have been the Pattern's response to the possibility of Rand destroying the DO? After all, Rand destroying the DO would do about as much to upset the balance of the Wheel as Shai'tan remaking it would. The name 'Shaisam' does bear marked similarity to 'Shai'tan,' after all. I realize it is a stretch, but imagine: The DO-Rand mind battle goes differently. Perhaps Rand doesn't spin his vision, and thus doesn't see that it wouldn't be any good to kill Shai'tan. When he is pitched back into the Pattern, the Wheel senses things didn't go well. Shaisam kills Mat and goes into the Bore. Right as Rand is killing the DO, Shaisam lurches at him. Rand finishes off the DO, then turns to fight him. Shaisam gets pushed/falls into the Bore and Rand seals it up. Thoughts?
  6. The Dark One isnt omniscient. With compulsion, dread lords, etc at their disposal Moridin could have easily been killed without Shai'tan knowing who was behind it. Secondly, even if you disagree with that, Moridin could have intentionally made mistakes or even 'turned to the Light' to bring about his demise. While I agree that this ultimately wouldn't fulfill Moridin's goals, I point it out only to take issue with this statement: (AMOL Chapter 30) "'You thought you were the Dark One, didn't you? Has he punished you for that?' 'Yes,' Moridin snarled. 'He returned me to life.'" I suppose one could argue he believed the Dark One could grant him oblivion without the destruction of the Pattern, in which case it would make sense. In the end it seemed Moridin was an afterthought almost. He did nothing in this book except lend his body and power to Rand. Rand's foil? Hardly. Instead of the weird time slowdown, why not keep Rand and Moridin in the field of play up until shortly before Logain obtains the seals? It gives the Nae'blis an opportunity to prove his ability lends credibility to Demandred's arc. I know it would require some major changes to AMOL, but it would get rid of the ridiculous duels, for one.
  7. I've gone the whole series believing that the Dark One really wanted to destroy the world. It seemed logical that Moridin, the Nae'blis, would know the DO's desires better than the rest of the Forsaken. Yet now we've basically been told no, Moridin was lied to and the rest of the Forsaken were closer to the truth. Now we've been told the DO couldn't even destroy the Pattern if he wanted to, no matter what. Additionally, Moridin talks about his punishment for believing he was the DO as being brought back to life. Well if that is the case, why didn't he just commit suicide or allow one of the other Forsaken to balefire him. Even the DO couldn't bring him back if that happened.
  8. Eye of the World, Chapter 36: In other words, you only have free will to an extent. There was no way the Pattern was going to let Lanfear not drill the Bore. It was too important to the Age Lace.
  9. It's simply the pattern of that age. Both RJ and Herid Fel told us this: LoC Ch. 18 This is why it was always pretty ridiculous when people claimed that this was actually the "last battle". See what I have emboldened. Fel is stating that the Prison has to be whole again when the Pattern spins back around the Age of Legends, in order for it to be bored into again. In other words, the Bore, the faulty sealing, and Rand's perfect sealing are all part of the Pattern's plan. Thus, the Pattern made Lanfear create the Bore, even if it seemed from her perspective that she chose to.
  10. Are you claiming that Lanfear was "forced" to drill into the Bore and that this was the "right direction"? Yes, according to that Herid Fel and RJ quotes provided by Suttree that is exactly what happened: "Yes, you do. You’d make a good student." Snatching his pipe out, Herid drew a circle in the air with the stem. "The Wheel of Time. Ages come and go and come again as the Wheel turns. All the catechism." Suddenly he stabbed a point on that imaginary wheel. "Here the Dark One’s prison is whole. Here, they drilled a hole in it, and sealed it up again." He moved the bit of the pipe along the arc he had drawn. "Here we are. The seal’s weakening. But that doesn’t matter, of course." The pipestem completed the circle. "When the Wheel turns back to here, back to where they drilled the hole in the first place, the Dark One’s prison has to be whole again." Interview: Nov 11th, 1997 Barnes and Noble Chat (Verbatim) Brandon from Mission Viejo Mr. Jordan, It's fairly common knowledge that the Dark One was bound by the Creator outside of the Pattern at the moment of creation. Would it then be safe to assume, after concepts brought to light in the new release, that the world before the opening of the prison never knew true evil? If so, then was each age before the opening of the Age of Legends different facets of some utopia? As well, without major conflict between good and evil, what caused ages to pass? Thanks. Robert Jordan Given that time is cyclic, you must assume that there is a time when the prison that holds the Dark One is whole and unbroken. There is a time when a hole is drilled into that prison and it is thus open to that degree. And there is a time when the opening has been patched in a make-shift manner. But following this line the cyclic nature of time means that we have at some time in the future inevitably a whole and unbroken prison again. Unless of course, the Dark One breaks free in which case all bets are off, kick over the table and run for the window. To me it would have made much more sense if the Dark One was not part of the Pattern's plans- and thus why it spun out ta'veren to correct itself- but apparently He is.
  11. It's simply the pattern of that age. Both RJ and Herid Fel told us this: LoC Ch. 18 This is why it was always pretty ridiculous when people claimed that this was actually the "last battle". Isn't there an innate contradiction between the idea of a Pattern and the concept of choice? So killing the Dark One would rid the Pattern of the ability to choose evil. So what? It already seems like the Pattern does most of the choosing for people anyways. After all, according to Fel, the Pattern had both the Bore and the improper sealing of the Dark One in it's plans. So basically you might make little choices like what to wear each day, but the Pattern won't allow you to choose when important decisions come up. It will force you in the right direction.
  12. I just would've expected that we'd have heard of more, though I guess in retrospect maybe there were but we just haven't been told. LPD would've been a good one. But it was my understanding that ta'veren themselves are spun tighter than any other thread. Perhaps I'm wrong but if that is true, why did it allow LTT to seal the bore improperly? Also, more importantly, doesn't the concept of ta'veren fly in the face of this idea of choice we hear of from Rand?
  13. Is it just me, or does it seem like the Pattern conceded to the Dark One in the Age of Legends. I find that a little bizarre. After all, we hear nothing of ta'veren in the 2nd age and they are supposed to be by-and-large the Pattern's correcting mechanism. I would've suspected in the days of the War the Pattern would be spewing them out like crazy.
  14. Why? They are equal. Creator is the Good force of the universe and DO is the Evil. Creator is not part of the Pattern either, it can be argued he is as much imprisoned as the Dark One. Because there really is no prison. Both are outside of the Pattern and cannot directly affect it if there is no Bore. What you're saying is, the term 'prison' is somewhat of a misnomer. I could buy that. I just have a hard time envisioning it being possible that Rand could destroy Shai'tan. Granted, he's obviously not omnipotent or omniscient. But we're talking creation ex nihilo here, and if Rand could destroy the Dark One then, given the right circumstances, he should be able to destroy the Creator. And that itself should not be possible. A misnomer or a metaphor. It doesn't really make any difference. When Rand goes in to face the DO, he does not step into DO's prison but he steps out of the Pattern and finds the DO there. As for destroying the Creator. Why not? Mierin already thought of it and she should know. She is one of the people that discovered the TP and drilled the Bore. How could a being be capable of creating something more powerful than itself, in any circumstance in which the creation is ex nihilo? Would you think it possible to take on God, supposing he was not omnipotent but still created the entire Universe from scratch?
  15. Why? They are equal. Creator is the Good force of the universe and DO is the Evil. Creator is not part of the Pattern either, it can be argued he is as much imprisoned as the Dark One. Because there really is no prison. Both are outside of the Pattern and cannot directly affect it if there is no Bore. What you're saying is, the term 'prison' is somewhat of a misnomer. I could buy that. I just have a hard time envisioning it being possible that Rand could destroy Shai'tan. Granted, he's obviously not omnipotent or omniscient. But we're talking creation ex nihilo here, and if Rand could destroy the Dark One then, given the right circumstances, he should be able to destroy the Creator. And that itself should not be possible.
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