Discuss the Shadow (Full Spoilers)

[Morden]

The Dark Ones goal was to be the Creator, I just dont think he understands that by being the Creator, he has to create and thus fight against a New Dark One who would then want to destroy his world and then re-create it in his image.

 

Dark One and the Creator - 2 Twins fighting for control of a world. When one is in control his world see's the other as evil.

 

If anything I think the DO would have offered Rand pretty much anything in order for him to side with him, but that doesnt mean he would be able to pull it off unless he allowed the Dragon to choose a balanced world where good can exist. (Rand would have agreed as long as his people stopped getting killed and there was good as well as evil.)

 

That might explain how the Dark side has won before? Imagine if the Creator was actually the previous turning of the wheels Dark One, but in order to win and create a world he did a deal with the Dragon so that the world would be balanced and that he would take no further action in the world that he would only be allowed a Champion, a Dragon. Cue a few thousand years later the previous Creator is so damned p****d off with being locked away from what was once his that he wants to destroy it and the cycle continues.

 

Probably not true, but still interesting.

[mockeryjones]

Fain , who must go in this section - what a let down , a huge cake of awesomeness prepared and then suddenly it has no flavour

 

Fain really confused me.  Other than a walking zombie plague, WTF was he at the end?  His POV mentioned the battle going on in the pit and called the combatants his old friends?  Did he mean Elan and Rand or the DO and Rand?  Was he there just to provide the idea that evil isn't monolithic?  If so how does that square with the idea that the world can't be the world with the DO extinguished?  Or was he really just another poor deluded creature of the DO, the unwitting last line of defense for the DO when all the other weapons had been spent ?    It's easy to read his underwhelming presence in story as just a way to make that particular plot line disappear but still his presence was part of the story, and the thoughts related to us  through his POV were actually quite mind blowing in the context of the mythology of Rand land.

[Morden]

 

Fain , who must go in this section - what a let down , a huge cake of awesomeness prepared and then suddenly it has no flavour

 

Fain really confused me.  Other than a walking zombie plague, WTF was he at the end?  His POV mentioned the battle going on in the pit and called the combatants his old friends?  Did he mean Elan and Rand or the DO and Rand?  Was he there just to provide the idea that evil isn't monolithic?  If so how does that square with the idea that the world can't be the world with the DO extinguished?  Or was he really just another poor deluded creature of the DO, the unwitting last line of defense for the DO when all the other weapons had been spent ?    It's easy to read his underwhelming presence in story as just a way to make that particular plot line disappear but still his presence was part of the story, and the thoughts related to us  through his POV were actually quite mind blowing in the context of the mythology of Rand land.

 

He seemed more an after thought to me. It was like the book was almost finished and someone during the draft reading said "Hey where is Fain?" and an "Oh crap give me 5 minutes..." and job done there is Fain, now there isnt Fain...

[Gisli]

Honorable mention should go not only for Demandred but for Graendal as well. She has also done major damages for the force of the Light. Her Compulsion against the Great Captain was a nasty trick (+ beleivable plot device for Mat to became the ultimate general). Later she killed of or compelled a lot of WO, AS and aiels (Rhuarc). She was lucky several times till the end, but almost reached her goal.

One scene particularly showed her strength, she was winning against Cadsuane + Alivia + Talaan + Amys (Cadsuane, two Forsaken level and one above average channeller) till Aviendha intervention! It was only possible probably because they were tired after defeating her compelled victims and I assume she had a strong angreal or a saangreal, nevertheless it was a great accomplishment.

[Beer Rot]

I loved the ending of Moghedien. She thinks she has bested all other forsaken and then *click * .

 

One thing that had always confused me about Moggy's time collared with the rebels, and now collared by the Seanchan... she is a very powerful dreamwalker, and I see no reason the collars would affect her ability to go into TAR.

 

The thing I like best is that both the Aiel and Seanchan just gained access to the weaves from the 3rd age known by Moggy and Graendal.

[thebrumble]

 

Also, did EVERY person who tried to go into the Pit of Doom just smile at Thom and assume he was falling for whatever guise they were employing?

 

lol yes and if they could channel why didnt they just kill him?  or compulse him?

They probably didn't want to give themselves away by channeling

[pmtang]

Morridin was great.  I don't even know if I would necessarily call him evil (except the occasional torturing of people).  All he really wanted to do was die.

[Duskfire]

I just want to know what it was Fain was meant to become at the end.

[garryturk]

Regarding Moggy, in the prologue she thinks that she has no idea where Dem is.  Yet after his death when  she masquerades as him she thinks about info she had from her eyes and ears concerning how he had been treating the Sharan old man.

I didn't think there had been that much time from the initial Sharan arrival to the full-on battle at FoM so I'm surprised she either managed to get new agents among the Sharans or get existing agents close enough to Dem to identify this sort of trend in his behaviour.  Or am I missing something?

[WhiskyJack]

I just want to know what it was Fain was meant to become at the end.

 

Mordeth? Or dissolve into Mashadar (Shiasam?)

[Beer Rot]

 

I just want to know what it was Fain was meant to become at the end.

 

Mordeth? Or dissolve into Mashadar (Shiasam?)

 

Read Fain's POV again, he claims to be a dear old friend of the Light and Shadow, a third force thru the ages.   As interesting as it was, I actually liked the quick ending to his arc.  It didn't smell of a cover up like the death of Masema.

[Barid Bel Medar]

I too was glad with Fain's end. Although I can fully understand the people that wanted more. 

 

But I just couldn't ever stomach the idea of Fain being the new DO, doing anything important really. He was a weasel, Mordeth was a traitorous weasel as well. For all the Power of Shadar Logoth, it was wasted on these pathetic creatures. Fain deserved nothing more than a meaningless death. In fact, I believe that's what makes it so good. The fact that Fain SOO wanted to kill Rand and/or the DO. That for all the power it entailed, Fain was useless- as he has always been. A forgotten relic, not important enough to warrant any special attention. 

 

Having said that, while I thought the death itself was fitting - I agree with probably the majority in wanting more from Fain, more explanation about his powers and talents. So perhaps a few more PoV's that show the transformation, similar to the one from ToM throughout ToM and aMoL would have been good, then at the end the death scene as it was in the book. 

[pmtang]

So Red Veiled Aiel who could channel were the ones that were sent to "spit in Sightblinder's eye".  But what about the ones who couldn't channel?  Presumably these are the offspring of said Aiel but there was no mention of females among the Red Veiled Aiel even though we know there were darkfriends among the Black Veiled Aiel.

[Barid Bel Medar]

It is implied that the ones who "didn't breed true" were killed and eaten. 

 

However, we get some of them who can't channel fighting alongside the others. 

 

I suspect if they couldn't channel, they were trained as Df warriors. If they weren't good DF's, then they were killed an eaten. 

  

And yes, they are most likely the offspring. They didn't breed with the female Aiel, they had captured women from the borderlands - who I assume, were treated as little more than breeding animals. 

 

That's why some of them have black eyes. 

[MarkDiLillo]

I too was glad with Fain's end. Although I can fully understand the people that wanted more. 

 

But I just couldn't ever stomach the idea of Fain being the new DO, doing anything important really. He was a weasel, Mordeth was a traitorous weasel as well. For all the Power of Shadar Logoth, it was wasted on these pathetic creatures. Fain deserved nothing more than a meaningless death. In fact, I believe that's what makes it so good. The fact that Fain SOO wanted to kill Rand and/or the DO. That for all the power it entailed, Fain was useless- as he has always been. A forgotten relic, not important enough to warrant any special attention. 

 

Having said that, while I thought the death itself was fitting - I agree with probably the majority in wanting more from Fain, more explanation about his powers and talents. So perhaps a few more PoV's that show the transformation, similar to the one from ToM throughout ToM and aMoL would have been good, then at the end the death scene as it was in the book. 

 

I agree 100%.  Fain needed about a dozen more pages of screen time, but his ending was fitting IMO.  Just dropping him in as some weird mist with a new name at the last second felt really lame.

[deepak_dragonreborn]

Totally agree. I didnt want a Gollum like scene with Fain. However, the decision to make Mat kill Fain looked to me like Brandon forcefully wanted the 3 taveren to be involved in the final scene of the Last Battle

[MarkDiLillo]

The epilogue contains a scene with Mat having just killed Fain.  Therefor Brandon had to write it up to that part.  The notes were probably clear on the sequence of events that had to occur (Mat being immune to Fain, Fain dying from his own dagger to the heart, etc.)

 

What is ridiculous is the lack of Fain writing prior to this.  We really didn't need much.  We didn't even get a scene explaining where the whole name change came from.  That's all it would've taken to deal with Fain better...a scene or two throughout the book showing him marching to SG and explaining his new powers a name some.  Some people would still be disappointed because they thought Fain was going to play such a massive role in the ending, but it is clear that even RJ didn't have him playing much of a role in the endin.  This is a valid criticism of RJ's plot for once - it is a little bit ridiculous to extend a story arc of someone like Fain out until the very end after it was such an important and massive part in the early books, and then just casually kill them off with little purpose.  Then again, we dont know how RJ would have written all of this so maybe he would have made it a little bit more grand and satisfying.  He usually does IMO.

[Bobwheel]

Er... Anyone else realize that if they had just killed Rand then he would have returned as a hero of the horn?

 

He would be a perfect champion because in death he would know the secrets of the Dark One as of course he has sealed the Dark One perfectly before since this is a battle that has occurred before. His epiphany about the Dark One and the world needing him because people need the right to choose has already occurred in another life for Rand and as a Hero of the Horn it would have been a very short battle between him and the Dark One.

 

 

That is exactly why I believe the Dark One never had any intention of killing Rand. Killing Rand = Instant Loss.

[gregweum]

I agree that Fain needed more screen time.... and maybe to accomplish a little something more.  I was waiting for him to convert some Darkhounds.

 

I also liked the Compulsion trick on the Generals -- although it seemed like it would have been a lot tougher to pull off than they made it seem.  Additionally, it seemed strange that Graendel didn't at least TRY to use compulsion on Mat... she did have access to the TP after all.

 

Moggy getting collared wasn't right to me.  Is it REALLY that easy to sneak up behind her and slap a collar on her neck?  It's not that easy to sneak up on anyone, much less someone like her.  I enjoy that it happened to her, but I would have liked a better lead up to it.

 

Where were the rest of the Darkfriends?  I wanted some more good secret agent stuff.  There was a little, so maybe I'm just a little too greedy.

 

Lanfear boggles me.  Her arc was just.... weird.

 

Shadar Haran go buh-bye.  Sooooo.....  he just poofed?  Very strange ending for him -- it made some sense, but it was very odd.

[pmtang]

So Graendal must not have died to Rand's balefire.........but she must have died to be reborn as that hideous woman, right?

[Mr. Micawber]

What the - bro, Graendal never died at Natrim's Barrow. Did you *read* TGS and TOM??

[Wool-headed lummox]

Reading the book felt like this.

 

Trollocks, Trollocks, Moridin dying for a suicide (olol), DARK ONE dropping cheesy comic book villain lines in all caps, Trollocks, Trollocks, Bao the Wyld (I wonder how the Sharan managed to pronounce his name with a Y, or why it even needs a Y, considering that the language they speak in isn't supposed to be anything like English? Or why Demandred went with a name that befits a male stripper?), Trollocks-Trollocks-Trollocks ad nauseum, Sharans, Trollocks, SUDDENLY FAIN WTF IS A SHAISAM FAIN DIES THE END THANK YOU FOR READING.

 

Huh? Is it just me, or did Fain lose any relevance to the plot after trying and failing to destroy the Two Rivers in the guise of Ordeith, seventy nine books ago? Even the wound he slashed into Rand's side ended up being irrelevant, as well as anything else he did. Why did we need to read about this worthless character for so long?

[pmtang]

But the language the Sharan's speak is English with a slightly different accent, like the Seanchan.

[Wool-headed lummox]

No it isn't. There's just one language in the WoT world (which is a completely ridiculous idea, but anyway) - the New Tongue, which is a modified version of the Old Tongue, which looks nothing like English. Well, the Old Tongue looks nothing like anything, because it's just a few nonsensical syllables with too many apostrophes, borrowed from any foreign word RJ happened to think looked cool. Purely stylistic choices, like spelling wild with y, completely do not translate from English to the New Tongue and are bereft of meaning. Somehow, it seems like something Brandson Sanderson would do, rather than Robert Jordan, but who knows.

[pmtang]

Every single name in Wheel of Time can be pronounced with English (albeit some awkwardly).  Why should Wyld be any different?

 

If you consider that the entire Wheel of Time takes place on one continent, it's not so hard to believe they all speak the same language.  The only nation of people who are across the ocean are the Seanchan who are descendents of the English speaking people of Randland (or call it whatever language you want).  It's like Canadians and Americans speaking a different version of English than the English.

 

In Canada here we like to make fun of Newfies for their accent, but they are still speaking English.  People in Vancouver speak the same language as those in St. Johns.  For the Americans, people in Los Angeles speak the same language as those in Miami.

 

I hope you aren't actually suggesting Jordan should have created this New Tongue for the series and written his books in it?  I know Tolkien created his own languages, but even he used English for his Middle Earth.