Discuss Verin (Full Spoilers)

[skalors3]

Alanna was not entirely ignored, but her plot was a massive cliffhanger in the last book (devised by Brandon himself) and a running story arc. Her ending was just really poorly done. Just a "Oh hey...Alanna's hear and she's dying." We never find out if she was a darkfriend, we dont know if she was kidnapped out of the Stone or if she left to go elsewhere first, and we dont know anything else about her. She was setup as a key piece to the last book and instead we got her just dropped in and dying at the very last second. It was very poorly done.

 

What were Lanfear's wishes if they were pretty explicit? I must have missed this part.

 

Verin's letters were consequential because they were shown to be an important part of her final plot. RJ and Brandon went out of their way to show that she sent other letters to other people. It was a cliffhanger. They were never mentioned again after ToM. For all we know, her one letter to Rand may have been key to the whole body swap and Callandor. We have no clue.

 

There is a lot that can be left open that feels done well, and then there are important plot points that are forgotten or wrapped up very hastily and that is just sloppy writing. An example of an open ended world or plot that is intentionally left open is the ending with Rand and his women. And the entire Seanchan storyline.

Of Alanna were a true Darkfriend, she wouldn't have released Rand. I think that question was clearly answered. She could have used Verin's method of Last Hour I can forsake my vows, but either way I think the story that mattered was she released Rand.

 

Verin's letter to her probably described how she was going to betray the shadow.

[Atheose]

Makes me wonder what Galad's letter was. It obviously wasn't about Rand, since Gawyn's revelation was shocking to him. (Of course, there is the chance he didn't read it at all, but that's a weak excuse.) 

 

I thought Galad was suitably epic. He did what needed to be done with the Ayyad, and his line " Demandred!" Galad yelled. "Demandred, you call for the Dragon Reborn! You demand to fight him! He is not here, but his brother is! Will you stand against me?" gave me chills. 

I've never liked Galad as a character, but I liked him in this book. The end when he clutches his arm and spits at Demandred's feet... I loved it. I just wished he had died right there... there were too many "Hey just kidding this character you thought was dead barely lived somehow" moments. 

[Duskfire]

 

Makes me wonder what Galad's letter was. It obviously wasn't about Rand, since Gawyn's revelation was shocking to him. (Of course, there is the chance he didn't read it at all, but that's a weak excuse.) 

 

I thought Galad was suitably epic. He did what needed to be done with the Ayyad, and his line " Demandred!" Galad yelled. "Demandred, you call for the Dragon Reborn! You demand to fight him! He is not here, but his brother is! Will you stand against me?" gave me chills. 

I've never liked Galad as a character, but I liked him in this book. The end when he clutches his arm and spits at Demandred's feet... I loved it. I just wished he had died right there... there were too many "Hey just kidding this character you thought was dead barely lived somehow" moments. 

Agreed. Both galad and Lan should have died. Lan killing himself to kill Demandred was epic and suited the character perfectly. Him surviving somehow just made it... I dunno, less epic?

[Chew63]

The last we saw of Alanna, she was gone from her room in the Stone with strong hints of her having had just opened Verin's letter.  That is a major cliffhanger.  She did not just get randomly abducted; she had just opened Verin's mysterious letter and THEN vanished.

 

Not resolving the issue of Verin's letters is a massive fail in the final book.  If the letters were not important at all (strongly implied that this was not the case) then a simple sentence from a PoV or two could have solved this.  Instead, the more likely conclusion is that Brandon flat out forgot about them.

 

Point conceded, maybe she left on her own volition and was abducted later.  But I still fail to see why that or not having all of Verin's letters explained is a massive fail.  I personally think there is merit in leaving the fans to their own speculation on some things.

[Morsker]

Verin's letters were consequential because they were shown to be an important part of her final plot.  RJ and Brandon went out of their way to show that she sent other letters to other people.  It was a cliffhanger.  They were never mentioned again after ToM.  For all we know, her one letter to Rand may have been key to the whole body swap and Callandor.  We have no clue.

 

Omg. This would explain why Nakomi is there at the end, telling Rand "Yes, that's good. That is what you need to do," about the body swap. If Verin is Nakomi, and Verin is the one who suggested it to him.

 

But how would Verin have learned it? Just something in T'A'R when she used to play with the dream ter'angreal?

[Kudlak]

I have feeling, that in one interview with BS was stated  that Verins others letters are for readers to fantasy about them

[MarkDiLillo]

 

The last we saw of Alanna, she was gone from her room in the Stone with strong hints of her having had just opened Verin's letter.  That is a major cliffhanger.  She did not just get randomly abducted; she had just opened Verin's mysterious letter and THEN vanished.

 

Not resolving the issue of Verin's letters is a massive fail in the final book.  If the letters were not important at all (strongly implied that this was not the case) then a simple sentence from a PoV or two could have solved this.  Instead, the more likely conclusion is that Brandon flat out forgot about them.

 

Point conceded, maybe she left on her own volition and was abducted later.  But I still fail to see why that or not having all of Verin's letters explained is a massive fail.  I personally think there is merit in leaving the fans to their own speculation on some things.

 

Typically, when something is designed for fans to speculate on then we are given some kind of hint.  The problem here is that Verin's letters were not even mentioned in this last book.  Rand had one, Galad had one, Alanna had one.  There were a couple others.  They are not referenced to even once.

 

I don't mind things left open to reader speculation at the end of the series.  I typically like that a lot actually.  It just pisses me off when the guy completely forgets to put them in this book and is now pretending that he left that up to our speculation.  The original author has passed away; this is the end of the series.  Why is he lying to us?  There's no reason to cover his own ass anymore.

[MauricXe]

 

Verin's letters were consequential because they were shown to be an important part of her final plot.  RJ and Brandon went out of their way to show that she sent other letters to other people.  It was a cliffhanger.  They were never mentioned again after ToM.  For all we know, her one letter to Rand may have been key to the whole body swap and Callandor.  We have no clue.

 

Omg. This would explain why Nakomi is there at the end, telling Rand "Yes, that's good. That is what you need to do," about the body swap. If Verin is Nakomi, and Verin is the one who suggested it to him.

 

But how would Verin have learned it? Just something in T'A'R when she used to play with the dream ter'angreal?

 

 

very interesting indeed @ the letter.

 

Verin just seems to know stuff. Not sure how though. Remember, she also knew about how Rand would fight and win the last battle as per her conversation with Egwene.

 

Perhaps...Verin didn't die and body swapped herself to Nakomi?

[Jak o' the Shadows]

Verin remains one of the most amazing characters in the series.  ToM was a huge reveal and her death scene was very moving.

 

 

She was NOT in AMoL.  She is NOT Nakomi.  

 

Sticking to my gut on this one.

[dreadlord]

Makes me wonder what Galad's letter was. It obviously wasn't about Rand, since Gawyn's revelation was shocking to him. (Of course, there is the chance he didn't read it at all, but that's a weak excuse.) 

 

I thought Galad was suitably epic. He did what needed to be done with the Ayyad, and his line " Demandred!" Galad yelled. "Demandred, you call for the Dragon Reborn! You demand to fight him! He is not here, but his brother is! Will you stand against me?" gave me chills. 

 

I came to the conclusion that the letter to Galad concerned darkfriends in the children of the light.  And, potentially some things about the disappearance of his mother.  But, it would have been nice to see it onscreen.

 

I agree with you on Galad's action during the battle, one of the few things that I thought was done right.

[Lazlo]

I don't really know what was in Verin's letter to Galad, but I have speculations on the other two.

 

Letter to Rand: Tells Rand about the Darkfriends among the High Lords of Tear (Weiramon and Anaiyella). I know everyone loves to think Rand can magically see Darkfriends (as per what happened in Maradon with Bashere's cousin gouging his eyes out and the wife jumping from the windows), and I thought that too, but my friend speculated this to me and I tend to agree. The letter may also have had something to do with his proposed Dragon's Peace, or the little fat man angreal. But telling Rand about the Darkfriends (which she could have rooted out herself instead of just magically knowing about) near him makes the most sense.

 

Letter to Alanna: I honestly think Alanna was a Darkfriend. Verin told Perrin explicitly not to trust her. I know she helped Rand with the Tairen rebellion in book 10 or 11, but she could be an agent of the shadow. Verin's letter could have told her that Verin knew she was a Darkfriend and explained what Verin did to sacrifice herself. That may have spurred Alanna to likewise let go of the bond to help protect Rand and the world in her final moments in hope of redemption. It was constantly shown that Darkfriends aren't the most loyal to the Dark One, they are simply terrified of him and his torturous methods (case in point: Moridin's resurrection).

 

As for Galad, I have no idea at all. Ideas? Thoughts on my speculations?

[MauricXe]

That's a good take on Verin's letters Lazlo

[Atheose]

 

 

Alanna was not entirely ignored, but her plot was a massive cliffhanger in the last book (devised by Brandon himself) and a running story arc.  Her ending was just really poorly done.  Just a "Oh hey...Alanna's hear and she's dying."  We never find out if she was a darkfriend, we dont know if she was kidnapped out of the Stone or if she left to go elsewhere first, and we dont know anything else about her.  She was setup as a key piece to the last book and instead we got her just dropped in and dying at the very last second.  It was very poorly done.

 

What were Lanfear's wishes if they were pretty explicit?  I must have missed this part.

 

Verin's letters were consequential because they were shown to be an important part of her final plot.  RJ and Brandon went out of their way to show that she sent other letters to other people.  It was a cliffhanger.  They were never mentioned again after ToM.  For all we know, her one letter to Rand may have been key to the whole body swap and Callandor.  We have no clue.

 

There is a lot that can be left open that feels done well, and then there are important plot points that are forgotten or wrapped up very hastily and that is just sloppy writing.  An example of an open ended world or plot that is intentionally left open is the ending with Rand and his women.  And the entire Seanchan storyline.

 

I seems obvious to me that she was abducted.  I'm a little fuzzy but didn't it say that Cadsuane and the others thought Alanna left immediately but they didn't feel anything (like a gateway).  Seems pretty plausible that Moridin or one of his male channeler lackeys could have scooped her up pretty easily.  It was a cliffhanger and it did pay off for me.  She was abducted by Moridin to be used against Rand at the very end....  

 

re: Lanfear -- looks like she wanted to be the one to step in at the last second and save the day for the Shadow.  I think those thoughts are Perrin's but they seem be a very good guess based on what we know of her.  After Rand "revealed his soul" or whatever, there wasn't much left for her...

 

Just because Brandon and RJ show that Verin sent out a lot of letters, doesn't mean they all had to be key plot points.  Maybe they were, but I don't see how Brandon (and RJ) could have shown us everything, even if they wished to.

 

There are things I want to know also, but there is no good way to resolve every single plot point. 

I'm still inclined to think that Alanna was a Darkfriend who got in way over her head.  Her interest in the boys from tDR forward was just too out of place, and her other actions just don't make a whole lot of sense otherwise. 

 

Lanfear wanted out from under Moridin's thumb.  She must have had some inkling of what Moridin expected to happen at Shayol Ghul, and used that information to her advantage.  Once Rand and Moridin were distracted, she could move in for the kill.

 

I thought Min had a viewing that Rand could trust Alanna? That seems to imply that she wasn't a DF.

 

As for what was in her letter, I like that it's left up to speculation. I think it was Verin warning her that Darkfriends were going to try to kidnap her to use against Rand. 

[Lazlo]

Something I noticed when Alanna disappeared pre-AMoL release...

 

When she disappears, Rand is in Tear and notes she is up north, somewhere in Arafel he guesses (I'm fairly certain). I then drew a straight line from Tear to Kandor on the map and extrapolated. Further along the line, what do you know, is Shayol Ghul. This was back in book 12 if I recalled correctly, and I had no idea where Alanna would end up, but it is interesting to remember my own speculations. The way Alanna left, with the postage from Verin's letter left, implies that she read the note and left, so teh idea of her being kidnapped at that exact moment doesn't sit well with me, but if she were warned against being used to hurt Rand, I feel like she wouldn't run off where she couldn't be protected and watched by a bunch of other Aes Sedai. I don't know what really happened, but maybe she went straight to Shayol Ghul at a summons from one of the Chosen (Moridin most likely). While Min did in fact have a viewing saying Alanna would server Rand in her own way (not that he should trust her explicitly), this leaves much to interpretation as Min's viewings rarely give the whole picture. It certainly doesn't eliminate the possibility of her being a Darkfriend, though it certainly disfavors the theory.

[Morsker]

If Alanna is Black Ajah, it explains why she only releases Rand at the end, with a dagger in her heart. She had to be 100% certain she'd die within the hour, in order to betray the DO.

 

Verin's letter could've been just a reminder of this fact, that betraying the DO is possible, in case Alanna had wanted a way out but had given up hope.

[mrdravid]

Re Rand's letter and that DF Tear lords (Weiramon and Anaiyella). I'm sure I remember there was a line in AMOl where it says that Rand used Saidin to listen to their heart beats which is how he discovered them.

 

As for Alanna, maybe Verin's letter were instructions on how to release the bond? It doesn't seem like this is known at all amoung Aes Sedais? On of the Ashaman does it and it surprises Pevara?

[papertiger]

As much as I'd like to learn about the contents of the letters, it was an old RJ ploy that was included to brew speculation.

 

Verin got a great send-off, which is really what counts in the end (sorry, Siuan!).

[Knivy]

 

 

Makes me wonder what Galad's letter was. It obviously wasn't about Rand, since Gawyn's revelation was shocking to him. (Of course, there is the chance he didn't read it at all, but that's a weak excuse.) 

 

I thought Galad was suitably epic. He did what needed to be done with the Ayyad, and his line " Demandred!" Galad yelled. "Demandred, you call for the Dragon Reborn! You demand to fight him! He is not here, but his brother is! Will you stand against me?" gave me chills. 

I've never liked Galad as a character, but I liked him in this book. The end when he clutches his arm and spits at Demandred's feet... I loved it. I just wished he had died right there... there were too many "Hey just kidding this character you thought was dead barely lived somehow" moments. 

Agreed. Both galad and Lan should have died. Lan killing himself to kill Demandred was epic and suited the character perfectly. Him surviving somehow just made it... I dunno, less epic?

I thought Lan coming back was because he was called back by the horn at first..  Which would have been great..

 

If Alanna is Black Ajah, it explains why she only releases Rand at the end, with a dagger in her heart. She had to be 100% certain she'd die within the hour, in order to betray the DO.

 

Verin's letter could've been just a reminder of this fact, that betraying the DO is possible, in case Alanna had wanted a way out but had given up hope.

 

Would it be betraying the shadow, or betraying a darkfriend, In her mind.  Which is all that matters.

[TDF]

just thinking out loud, and i havent read all the forums or theories, but how do we know that Verin's letters were for the greater good? we know she has done terrible things in her time. 

 

perhaps it was how moridin (or whoever may or may not have taken her) was able to locate Alanna?

[Brontes]

ok.... since I cannot start a new freaking topic for some stupid reason I'll ask my question here.    

 

Who all wanted to see verin become a "new" hero of the Horn ???   Imagine all the cool stuff she would of started doing once summoned !!!........          also, what do you think she would of done when summoned by the horn?     

 

 

I appoligize in advance with grammer/spelling, I am totally drunk right now.

[Brontes]

 

ok.... since I cannot start a new freaking topic for some stupid reason I'll ask my question here.    

 

Who all wanted to see verin become a "new" hero of the Horn ???   Imagine all the cool stuff she would of started doing once summoned !!!........          also, what do you think she would of done when summoned by the horn?     

 

 

I appoligize in advance with grammer/spelling, I am totally drunk right now.

Yeah, the mods on this board make EVERYTHING difficult for no apparent reason. Except for their own self importance. Verin is a good choice but, she was BA after all. I suspect that since she was BA she is excluded from HOH  status.

ya... but to become BA in order to learn about them and eventually pass on what you learned to someone in order to bring them down... that to me sounds like a daring and brilliant plan!!    Hero of the Horn worthy to me.  Not to mention all the other things she does to ensure victory for the light. 

[Brontes]

I vote that we all take a vote to tell brandon sanderson how much we think that verin should be THE hero of the Horn !!! =)   Rawr????

[Lazlo]

Re Rand's letter and that DF Tear lords (Weiramon and Anaiyella). I'm sure I remember there was a line in AMOl where it says that Rand used Saidin to listen to their heart beats which is how he discovered them. As for Alanna, maybe Verin's letter were instructions on how to release the bond? It doesn't seem like this is known at all amoung Aes Sedais? On of the Ashaman does it and it surprises Pevara?

 

In AMoL, Moridin speculated to Rand in his dreamshard that this was what Rand had done, but Rand just stands there silently staring at Moridin, so we don't know if this is what happened or if they were given away by Verin. I prefer to believe the latter. Moridin is free to believe as he chooses.

 

And as for the warder bond release, most Aes Sedai know the weave. It is implied Egwene knows the weave to pass the bond, and she release Leilwins bond so she knows that as well. Pevara offers to release Androl if he releases her, but it is actually Androl who doesn't know how to release the Asha'man bond. I suspect releasing the bond is relatively simple and similar to forming the bond in the first place (though not instantly intuitive otherwise Androl could have figured it out). I believe it is a commonly known weave to Aes Sedai.

[Sabio]

I like her and her ending.  She was a mystery throught out the series and remains a mystery.  We will never know what was in her letters and I sort like it like that.  She wil lnever get the respect and honor she deserves.  She single handedly allowed Egwene to almsot totally destroy the black ajah, was going to kill Casudne if she thought Cas was going to harm Rand.  She saw to it the prophecy at falme with the 5 ride forth thing happened.  Be hind the scenes she did IMO the most to see the DO destroyed and she will never get credit for any of it.

 

With that said it would be nice to know what was in that letetr that sent Allana north and got her captured.

[Sabio]

Re Rand's letter and that DF Tear lords (Weiramon and Anaiyella). I'm sure I remember there was a line in AMOl where it says that Rand used Saidin to listen to their heart beats which is how he discovered them. As for Alanna, maybe Verin's letter were instructions on how to release the bond? It doesn't seem like this is known at all amoung Aes Sedais? On of the Ashaman does it and it surprises Pevara?

Rand some how learned the ability to out DF's. remember neither of them could look Rand and in maradon he caused them to kill themselves.  So I am guessing it was more then just listening to their heart beats.