Rand's Arc (Full Spoilers)

[jack of shadows]

@dagon thyne,

"to live you must die",let me use different words for this prophecy:

to live a normal life the dragon reborn must die,well,the dragon reborn did die

in shayol ghul,rand al thor did not.

the switch between rand and moridin.

during the process of switching bodies rand was alive the whole time,the bond

with his three lovers proves it,it's still intact,so i don't see any reason why sould

he lose part of his memories,after all he is the same person in a different body.

on the other hand the switch did kill moridin,rand's body was breaking down

(too much blood loss).

now for the tricky part,rand's so called inability to channel.

in my opinion it has nothing to do with moridin nor with the switch,it happened

earlier when rand fought the dark one inside/outside the pattern,his abilities just

morphed,he doesn't have to "draw" anymore,the only thing he needs now is his mind.

[shortkut]

 

 

Rand is going to die, just like the men that get gentled and the men that entered the stetting during the breaking. He wont be able to live without the one power for long. Since there is no notes on Rand after the last battle besides the lighting of the pipe, we have to assume that hes going to die within 5 years sorry rand fans.

Even if this wasn't making huge leaps of logic(which it is.) It totally ignores the fact that Cadsuane was able to gentle men, reintegrate them into society and have them live an almost normal life span. The persons mind state plays a huge role.

Isn't there a quote that says true power use essentially poisons the body? He is now in a body that almost exclusively used the true power and now he will suffer the consequences

[Suttree]

 

 

 

 

 

Rand is going to die, just like the men that get gentled and the men that entered the stetting during the breaking. He wont be able to live without the one power for long. Since there is no notes on Rand after the last battle besides the lighting of the pipe, we have to assume that hes going to die within 5 years sorry rand fans.

Even if this wasn't making huge leaps of logic(which it is.) It totally ignores the fact that Cadsuane was able to gentle men, reintegrate them into society and have them live an almost normal life span. The persons mind state plays a huge role.

Isn't there a quote that says true power use essentially poisons the body? He is now in a body that almost exclusively used the true power and now he will suffer the consequences

Well that is entirely different than the other point being made. In relation to the TP however we have this:

 

Interview: Apr, 2003

Budapest Q&A (Verbatim)

Wood Sun

What about the saa? You wrote in a chapter, that there is a black hole before Moridin's eyes.

Robert Jordan

No, no, in the eyes. It is not before. In the eyes, inside the eyes.

Wood Sun

And can see through? (-?- unsure about this sentence. -?-)

Robert Jordan

It depends. When you are using the True Power. At first, when you begin using the True Power, there's nothing there. Nothing in the eyes. After you've used it for a while, you begin to have a black speck floating across your eyes, when you're using it.

Wood Sun

And then you see, other observers can see it.

Robert Jordan

No, you don't see it. You don't actually see it.

Wood Sun

I think it was the chapter when Moridin was observing with a cloak of fancloth. His vision was blurred by a rain of black spots.

Harriet

But it didn't affect his vision.

Robert Jordan

It didn't affect his vision. You're aware of it, but it's not like there is blackness between you, because it gets thicker and thicker and thicker and you get to a point where if you've used it long enough you get a steady stream even if you're not connected. And you are then on the road, at that point, inevitably, to becoming what Ishamael was. Because these are stigmata, if you will. These saa are stigmata caused by a linkage to the Dark One. And eventually the effect is to become all fire eyes. You no longer have eyes visible to other people. If they're looking into your eyes, they seem to be looking into caverns of flame that stretch to infinity. And when you open your mouth they see another cavern of flame that stretches to infinity. Because you've reached at that point the ultimate level of this usage and quite possibly, if you've at this point not been granted immortality, you're on your way to death. Not madness, but you're on your way to death. So it's sort of a race. The Dark One has given you this boon, but if you use it very much, then you'd better hope he is willing to give you another boon, because if he doesn't give you the second boon then you're dead. Some of the Forsaken have expressed discomfort with the fact that Ishamael and Moridin are so free with using the One Power.

 

Moridin had not yet gotten back to that point where Ishy was.

 

If I recall correctly there was only one saa on Rand in the shape of the dragon fang post battle with the DO?

[NitroS]

in other words if you want rand to die from being gentled then be it if you want him to die from an intoxicated body from the TP then be it the series is over and no notes left after the lighting of the pipe. Create what you want in your head and thats what happens.

[Suttree]

In other words that has nothing to do with the original point you made(which was refuted), and it clearly shows he wasn't far enough along for death in his TP usage.

 

Edit: Are you seriously going around changing all your posts hours later once they are countered? Yes people are free to imagine what happens with Rand. That was rather the point of the ending. That said it has to fit with what we know of the world and what has transpired. Neither of those options do so.

[jack of shadows]

@suttree

can you tell me how much "real time"has passed between moridin's birth

(a crown of swords) until his death in shayol ghul?

i'm still trying to figure out for how long did moridin use his body before

rand took over.

it's roughly six months between winter's heart until a memory of light(elayne pregnancy),

but i'm not sure about the time line between a crown of swords until winter's heart,

two months?more?

[Suttree]

@jack

 

Steven Cooper has the most comprehensive timeline up until the mistakes got too bad in ToM. At that point he threw in the towel but you should check out the site. Lot's of cool stuff.

 

http://www.sevenspokes.com/chronology/creation.html

[jack of shadows]

@suttree

thank you,it's roughly 40+ days between a crown of swords until rand and his lovers bonded.

[Dagon Thyne]

@dagon thyne,

"to live you must die",let me use different words for this prophecy:

to live a normal life the dragon reborn must die,well,the dragon reborn did die

in shayol ghul,rand al thor did not.

the switch between rand and moridin.

during the process of switching bodies rand was alive the whole time,the bond

with his three lovers proves it,it's still intact,so i don't see any reason why sould

he lose part of his memories,after all he is the same person in a different body.

on the other hand the switch did kill moridin,rand's body was breaking down

(too much blood loss).

now for the tricky part,rand's so called inability to channel.

in my opinion it has nothing to do with moridin nor with the switch,it happened

earlier when rand fought the dark one inside/outside the pattern,his abilities just

morphed,he doesn't have to "draw" anymore,the only thing he needs now is his mind.

But the Dragon Reborn did not die. Moridin did. The Dragon is the soul, not the body. Rand al'Thor, survived. I guess it could be seen that the part of Rand that was linked to Moridin died.

[woomia]

Rand did die for all the world knows that's how he gets to be mister average from now on.

[jack of shadows]

@dagon thyne,

you are absolutely right of course,the dragon reborn and rand are one and the same,

what i really meant to say is that after the last battle rand finally can get his life back

because everyone else think the dragon reborn is dead.

for the first time since the eye of the world,rand is truly free from the dragon reborn

burden,and what a heavy burden it was:"being what people needed was wearing on

him,grinding as surely as a river cut at a mountain.in the end,the river always win."

although only the symbol died in shayol ghul,not the actual dragon reborn,sometimes

a symbol holds more power than the thing it represents.

the funeral pyre with his previous body in it,is enough to give rand freedom to start all

over again elsewhere:"south east or west would do,but he figured he wanted to go

someplace away from it all for good."

to live you must die......

[Guest AndyT]

I think that the ending for Rand was perfectly fine.  As per the turnings of the wheel as I seem to perceive them, at the end of the AOL turn, the Dragon fails and dies a horrible death in madness.  In next turn at the "Last Battle"(which it never is), the Dragon is tempted and must overcome the darkness within in order to win the contest.  For this he is rewarded, the body switch has been foreshadowed for so long, and per Robert Jordan's own words that he knew the last scene when he started writing that it is rather obvious that the Dragon gets the reward of living out a normal life without the burden of rule.  While we cannot know how long Rand will live, there is some evidence that it will at least be a normal human life barring any catastrophic accident.  It is stated that as Rand's body is dieing, Moridin's is getting stronger.  This is clearly evidence of the soul transfer taking place.  If the OP and TP are connected to the soul, then it is Moridin's soul that would carry the damage not Rand's.  Also, giving that R. Jordan made sure that Rand got the happy ending, I think that he would have believed that Rand would have lived a normal lifespan.  Just my thoughts.

[randalthorr]

I liked the metaphor. I've been having trouble trying to give logic to the scenario, and this makes a good basis for my ideas.

 

 

Here's a really blunt attempt at an explanation regarding the DO and Creator. They are outside the pattern but still influence it.

Think of it like a water faucet. Except the faucent is holding back the ocean, not a water pipe. Each knob is holding its own ocean, one of hot water, one of cold. No matter that they are held back from your shower they still affect it, they still bleed in in limited amounts in balance to get you nice warm water. But snap the faucent on either side and you have a flood that destroys everything.

That's a really dumb way of viewing the metaphysics. The bore was basically breaking open the hot water valve. But if you completely remove the hot water you'll only ever have cold again. So you patch it, then you fix it with a new knob putting it back the way it was so you have warm again.

That's the theme RJ set with the DO and the Creator, they are both outside the pattern, giving the influence of good and evil, or order and chaos, or what have you. They are outside so it's just the raw influence and small trickles of their essence that mix into the pattern and leave us with our choices. When the bore gets opened one side floods in and risks destruction. (I still have my whack-job theory that at some point in the turning of the wheel of the opposite of this happens and we have something like the Jasmine Arc of Angel minus the people eating.)

Edit: Dragon mount hates spacing.

 

[randalthorr]

Before I shoot, I've only very recently finished the book, and therefore have not had the time to read the thread fully yet. So, if these questions are already answered, please excuse my ignorance, and I'll eventually find the ones I'm looking for as I go through the forums.

 

I have a number of questions, not all pertaining to Rand, but Ill post them together anyway.

 

1. Is Olver, Gaidal Cain reborn? And is Birgitte going to be one of Elayne's twins?

 

2. Was it Noam who incapacitated Ituralde, to remove him from command?

 

3. If I remember correct, at some point Rand mentions to Perrin that the taint is what gave him access to LTT's memories, which he believes will help him seal the bore and therefore, the shadow gives Rand the means to destroy it. What I do not have a clear understanding of, is Rand and his madness. I was thinking along the lines that, LTT's memories were always Rand's own since he is not separate from LTT and they are one and the same. However, the taint and the resulting madness made his mind think that they were separate entities, and therefore resulted in Rand's mind thinking that it was competing with the will of another mind beside itself. After Rand's epiphany, he sees through this and is then protected from this madness with the light that counters the taints madness.

 

Am I wrong in my understanding? I feel like Ive completely misunderstood Rand's madness.

 

4. Could Rand possibly take the role of Nakomi, who in turn provides guidance to the champion of the next age?

 

5. Are there any other connections/ mirrors between Shayol Ghul and Dragonmount, besides being the respective monuments in reminder of the shadow and light.

 

 

 

Ive got heaps of others, Ill post them later when Ive completed a re-read.

[jack of shadows]

@guest_andyt_*

"i think that he would have believed that rand would have lived a normal lifespan"

even though i have strong enough confidence in our legendary hero's capabilities,

what i am writing here is just harmless wishful thinking,nothing more.

you have probably noticed that rand could't get away from shayol ghul fast enough

after he woke up,and i respect his wishes for freedom,anonymity and simple life,

but i want more for him,let's call it a reward for a job well done over impossible conditions:

a very long life,long enough for elayne and aviendha to join him after their retirement.

i will grant tam and nynaeve the knowledge that rand is alive and well,and i'm talking 

mere hours after the funeral pyre,not a few years later.

lastly,i will grant min the same longevity as elayne and aviendha,it's only fair.

one poster wrote that min loved rand the best,not the most but the best,and i completely agree.

if rand can light a pipe with his mind,he can make my wishes come true.

not too much to ask i hope?

[mbuehner]

"4. Could Rand possibly take the role of Nakomi, who in turn provides guidance to the champion of the next age?"

 

Who knows? Sanderson dug the character out from deep in the notes and plugged her in because it sounded cool. Worse, he somehow didn't realize that this would cause a huge groundswell to find out who she was and what she represented and why. Its a giant unaddressed question mark in the mythology of the series. Thats not the same as leaving individual story threads open-ended or ambiguous.  It would be equivalent to reading the entire bible and then having Zorkan the Lurker appear at Calvary to give the disciples some advice and then disappear in smoke and fire.  Who could possibly foresee that raising a few urgent questions?

 

I guess the upside is we found out was more annoying than a deus ex machina coming to save the day. Its a deus ex machina coming and doing nothing.

[Erdrick]

@randalthorr - On your five questions:

 

1. RJ himself said that Oliver is too old to be Gaidal Cain reborn. As for Birgitte being one of Elayne's twins, it is possible, though I lean heavily toward Elayne's twins being Shivan and Calian. The following is from TGH after Mat blosw the Horn of Valere:

"...and Shivan the Hunter behind his black mask. He was said to herald the end of Ages, the destruction of what had been and the birth of what was to be, he and his sister Calian, called the Chooser, who rode red-masked at his side."

Twins (brother and sister) born at the end of the 3rd Age and start of the 4th age...the timing is just right. The Wise One Melaine is giving birth to twin girls, so perhaps Birgitte will be one of hers. I like the idea of Birgitte being born Aiel, as things never work out well for her when she carries a sword....

 

2. I don't remember, and my book is currently packed away in storage.

 

3. People are not supposed to have memories from past lives at all. The taint is what originally facilitated that for Rand.

 

4. There's an interesting theory about that floating around. I recently summed it up for someone in a different forum, and I will cut&paste that here:

 

As to your query about what Rand's new lifespan...have you heard the "Nakomi as caretaker of the Pattern" theory? I really like it. It comes from things Nakomi did in ToM seeming similar to Rand lighting his pipe at the end of AMoL. Below are the assertions (all of it pure speculation of course) for one version of the theory:

*The Pattern manipulating ability Rand manifests at the end of AMoL is a consequence of him stepping outside of the pattern to reforge (not just patch) the DO's prison. That also resulted in him taking on a new role as caretaker of the Pattern.

*He remains the caretaker until the next caretaker emerges. In other words, he will live for thousands of years. (Perhaps Rand will be the caretaker for, say, the 4th and 5th ages.)

*Then something will occur that requires some other great hero to somehow step outside the pattern to resolve the problem. Perhaps that's when Rand's soul can finally fade away and let the next caretaker take over (say, for the 6th and 7th ages).

*This theory presents Nakomi as the previous caretaker (say, for the first three ages, after doing something to gain that status at the close of the 7th age). When Rand finished dealing with the DO, she was there to help him back to the world, whence she became free to take her leave and fade away.

 

5. I can't think of any.

 

@jack of shadows - About new magic Rand granting some degree of longevity to Min...Interesting. I haven't considered that possibility. I think I like it.

 

@mbuehner - "a deus ex machina coming and doing nothing." lol...that cracks me up!

[Suttree]

1a. The timing doesn't work for Birgitte and Elayne either. She is not far enough along.

 

@mbheuner

 

Nice one mate. Comedy.

[randalthorr]

Thanks for clarifying erdrick, mbuehner, suttree.

 

 

I'm so immersed into the universe, I couldn't help but start re-reading AMoL the very next day I finished it the first time.

[BFG]

Before I shoot, I've only very recently finished the book, and therefore have not had the time to read the thread fully yet. So, if these questions are already answered, please excuse my ignorance, and I'll eventually find the ones I'm looking for as I go through the forums.

 

I have a number of questions, not all pertaining to Rand, but Ill post them together anyway.

 

1. Is Olver, Gaidal Cain reborn? And is Birgitte going to be one of Elayne's twins?

 

2. Was it Noam who incapacitated Ituralde, to remove him from command?

 

3. If I remember correct, at some point Rand mentions to Perrin that the taint is what gave him access to LTT's memories, which he believes will help him seal the bore and therefore, the shadow gives Rand the means to destroy it. What I do not have a clear understanding of, is Rand and his madness. I was thinking along the lines that, LTT's memories were always Rand's own since he is not separate from LTT and they are one and the same. However, the taint and the resulting madness made his mind think that they were separate entities, and therefore resulted in Rand's mind thinking that it was competing with the will of another mind beside itself. After Rand's epiphany, he sees through this and is then protected from this madness with the light that counters the taints madness.

 

Am I wrong in my understanding? I feel like Ive completely misunderstood Rand's madness.

 

4. Could Rand possibly take the role of Nakomi, who in turn provides guidance to the champion of the next age?

 

5. Are there any other connections/ mirrors between Shayol Ghul and Dragonmount, besides being the respective monuments in reminder of the shadow and light.

 

 

 

Ive got heaps of others, Ill post them later when Ive completed a re-read.

 

2. I thought it was Elyas, but now I'm going to have to reread.

 

4. Rand/LTT is the Dragons soul, so he's always going to be the Dragon, or the Dragon equivalent.

 

 

"4. Could Rand possibly take the role of Nakomi, who in turn provides guidance to the champion of the next age?"

 

Who knows? Sanderson dug the character out from deep in the notes and plugged her in because it sounded cool. Worse, he somehow didn't realize that this would cause a huge groundswell to find out who she was and what she represented and why. Its a giant unaddressed question mark in the mythology of the series. Thats not the same as leaving individual story threads open-ended or ambiguous.  It would be equivalent to reading the entire bible and then having Zorkan the Lurker appear at Calvary to give the disciples some advice and then disappear in smoke and fire.  Who could possibly foresee that raising a few urgent questions?

 

I guess the upside is we found out was more annoying than a deus ex machina coming to save the day. Its a deus ex machina coming and doing nothing.

 

If BS hadn't introduced Nakomi in ToM, then (to my current level of understanding) RJ would introduce her as an unnamed Aiel character in the Epilogue (the last I heard, Rand exiting the cavern was an RJ scene, slthough if it's only strongly RJ influenced scene, then I withdraw the objection :) ).  I don't know which would be preferable, but all BS really did was give her a name, *shrugs*

[mbuehner]

If BS hadn't introduced Nakomi in ToM, then (to my current level of understanding) RJ would introduce her as an unnamed Aiel character in the Epilogue (the last I heard, Rand exiting the cavern was an RJ scene, slthough if it's only strongly RJ influenced scene, then I withdraw the objection :) ).  I don't know which would be preferable, but all BS really did was give her a name, *shrugs*

 

That's really the question though, and i'm not sure we're gonna get it answered (even though its a process question, not really a content question). I get the sense that BS is a little shaken that Nakomi drew such interest (which is surprising and  disappointing in itself).  My take is that this was an 'Androlesque note' by BS that ended up raising questions he cant answer.  I say that because per BS:

 

Keith Pishnery (13 January 2013) Did RJ say that Nakomi should be included? You said she was "deep in RJ's notes" but wondering if it was up in the air?

Brandon Sanderson (13 January 2013)  "I said something deep in the notes made me include her. I have not said if she herself was in the notes or not."                                    

 

Anything in the epilogue (written by RJ) could never be described as 'deep in the notes'. If RJ wrote it, it was going to be included and hence nothing would 'make me include her'. I wouldn't call that definitive, but it seems pretty strong evidence that the Nakomi scene was not written by RJ. The problem with that is that even if there was supposed to be a random Aiel outside the PoD, BS fleshed her out (especially with the Avi scene) and if he's spitballing its troubling. Maddening actually. Even if that character was designated to exist, giving her a name, showcasing her 'Rand magic', showing her randomly in the waste, etc in a sense leads the witness. Instead of a draw your own conclusion about who this unknown Aiel woman is and whether she is important/powerful, we are rather wrangled into figuring where she belongs in the cosmology of Randland.  Which kinda demands a better answer than RAFO. You don't just drop a major player into the very end of a mythology with no explanation, and then claim, dont worry, she's not that major. The hell she's not.

[BFG]

^I'm going to respond to this in the Nakomi thread, before we derail the thread :)

[randalthorr]

To those that disagree with Rand, I'd like to use this analogy.

 

The DO is like a nuclear weapon. Its available to be used by many of the nations in our world. We are all pretty damn sure that none of the nations would actually USE it and trigger another world war. BUT, the bombs [DO] are [is] available. The CHOICE to use it is present. If the presence of the bombs corrupts somebody far enough to convince him/her that, its use would eventually result in complete power in his/her hands at the cost of the rest of the world and humanity suffering, then the bomb [DO] fulfills its purpose.

 

 

Its stretching it, but I can't think of a better example yet. In any case, I stand with Rand in his decision to leave the DO in his prison.

[Treesong]

I loved  the book, pretty much the best in the series for me(together with the first). However, after getting pumped up immensely for 800+ pages (or rather 12k+ pages) I found the epilogue very short, wanting and to be honest, a bit weird. It not only left me wanting, but also befuddled about how Rand was handled. 

 

I understand the wish of many here (after reading some threads) to give Rand some well deserved peace, but him sneaking out of the camp, chuckling and pipesmoking,  to go play the tourist while his friends and father mourn him at the pyre felt really off to me. Especially after such a long buildup of making Rand "care" again about himself and the ones around him. 

 

One of the strong points of this series imo is the focus on the interaction and emotional relationships of  key-characters with eachother, over a long period of time. The three boys together, Egwene and Rand, Nynaeve and Lan, Moiraine and Rand, Mat and Tuon and many, many more. Some of these get really fleshed out, some not so much. In this light, I always found his "love-interest" in his three girlfriends to be of minor importance, exept maybe his love for Min which plays an important role in  Rands "dark and aloof" days.

 

The focus therefore on this love-interest in the very short epilogue felt off. Instead of Rand and other keycharacters being allowed to rejoice with eachother in these new times, re-establish bonds and lick their (emotional) wounds together, he traipses off, leaving his father and two best friends in shambles, his babes behind, and his mind on how to juggle 3 girlfriends at the same time?

 

I understand Rand deserving a break, but so does every other single keycharacter imo. He is not the only tragic figure in this tale. Egwene, annoying as she could be, is the more tragic one to me, to be honest. And I also would think Rand deserves this break with his loved ones. The fact the he wears Moridins face is complicating but can be overcome.

 

I would have expected to see an epilogue where there is some winding down, maybe a few scenes in the Two Rivers, characters seeing some fruit of their labor, licking their (emotional) wounds together, a few glimpses on the world being rebuild, people coming to their own again. With such an epilogue, I could have been perfectly ok with Rand actuallly being dead ( ok, not perfectly but still). 

 

Rather that, then this sneaking off in the night. 

 

Also, it is obvious that Rand is now capable of tapping into the Real Power........ ;) 

[ReleaseTheEvil]

I understand the wish of many here (after reading some threads) to give Rand some well deserved peace, but him sneaking out of the camp, chuckling and pipesmoking,  to go play the tourist while his friends and father mourn him at the pyre felt really off to me. Especially after such a long buildup of making Rand "care" again about himself and the ones around him. 

 

This bothered me quite a bit about the epilogue as well. But, the one thing that really held it together for me while I was going "What the..." at this part was that RJ wrote it.

 

This is the way the story was supposed to end. Perhaps it isn't the most comforting one to me, nor the one I would have imagined (I only mean the epilogue here), but it is how it was intended to finish.

 

That helped me have peace with it.