Rand's Arc (Full Spoilers)

[woomia]

I just re-read the Rand's battle with the DO and it made sense. Everything the DO showed him was a lie. The only true vision was the last one, the one he showed the DO of the "hollow" people. It made perfect sense for Rand to exile the DO from the Pattern. It was the only way to achieve victory and the keep the Pattern and Wheel going.

[Erdrick]

woomia, I think the bull crap that jjp and Entreri (and earlier Karistina and others) were calling out in their earlier posts is that scene where people are "hollow" without the DO. I know it's a fantasy world (even though it is presented as being both our ancient past and our distant future), but how do you square the logic of that scene with the in-world counterexample that was Mordeth? (That on top of all the other reasons I expanded on in my earlier post.)

Regardless, it is what it is. This was a wonderful series and I thoroughly enjoyed the ride. I'll let it go now.
 

[Orange7]

Honestly, I think that they could have put it all together if Rand had just had a single thought relative to the wheel. If he had just said "Maybe it isn't saidar and saidin that turn the wheel. Maybe it is the One Power and the True Power." That would explain off the whole thing in a reasonable way that works with the universe.

 

I think that all of this confusion is just based off of Brandon's inability to convey detail during the interaction. It is, of course, his fault, but RJ's notes may have said to imply it rather than state it outright.

[Silentvoice]

Ok. Wow that was a lot to read, I hope I didn't miss anything.

I just finished today, and really loved it!

I was wondering why the simple possibility that Rand's pipe was a ter'angreal isn't mentioned much? Was there an interview with Sanderson that I missed?

[Orange7]

I would really hope that RJ wouldn't leave us with: Rand saved the world, losing the ability to channel in the process... but on the plus side, he found a magical pipe, so he can still smoke whenever he wants. A little too anticlimactic for either author, in my opinion.

[wRAR]

Ok. Wow that was a lot to read, I hope I didn't miss anything.

 

I just finished today, and really loved it!

 

I was wondering why the simple possibility that Rand's pipe was a ter'angreal isn't mentioned much? Was there an interview with Sanderson that I missed?

Sanderson said he doesn't have an answer.

[Agitel]

 

 

 

Sure, but if the "source" is all from the DO, as is put forth at the end of AMoL, then is that not as directly related as you can get?

You can't have your cake and eat it.

The fact that this was so hyped up by Rand telling everyone how he was going to kill the DO is what grates, because the reason he decided not to is something that not only has never been touched on previously, we've had plenty of reason to believe otherwise.

I'm not upset at the idea, but at the total disconnect between that idea and everything that came before it.

Turns out the Creator didn't even create free will, and nobody has it without help from the DO. Which means it isn't really free will if it depends on influence from outside sources.

Rand in VOG rediscovered "love" and THAT was the crux of the setup - the DO offered none and Moridin as foil had none. The free will thing didn't fit the dynamic that was being laid out at all.

When you think about it now, Moridin was right. They are all pawns, and any "choices" they think they have are only fueled by nebulous "influence" from the DO and presumably the Creator.

 

The whole thing fits thematically with the rest of the series, especially with Perrin's inner struggle over the necessity of violence and the Tinkers. It fits with the whole theme of balance that's been present in every arc and stretched throughout the series. There's no disconnect.

 

And the way you phrase it, you keep implying that the Dark One and the Creator are pulling the strings from outside the Pattern.

 

Well, to your first point, it there was a big reveal at the end of the book that the DO had a wife and the Creator had a wife, and they both like to crochet, and that it was actually a struggle between the wives of the DO and the Creator who were in a battle of knitting the Pattern together, THAT would fit "thematically" with the theme of "balance" in the series. Just because something follows an established theme doesn't mean that it makes any kind of sense with the in-story universe as it's previously been described.

 

And to your second point, I'm phrasing it that way because that's exactly what is revealed in AMoL. Rand let the DO live because the DO somehow projects "evil" into the souls of every person. If the DO dies, as we saw, this element of evil is removed and people aren't able to choose their fates, and in a sense become "Turned" for the Light.

 

How would you explain that without the DO having influence over people's choices from outside the Pattern?

Rand wouldn't just be killing a being, he'd be eliminating the 'evil' in men and women. Evil exists, but as a manifested entity can't intelligently mess with the Pattern. Yes, the Creator apparently relied in the DO to create free will in his creation? So what? Men and women need that capacity to protect themselves and for the world not to be stagnant.

 

The evil in Mordeth is either something alien to the Pattern, something else, or he's a 'corrupted' part of the DO... Inverted. but it is quite clearly unnatural, which is the point. We don't know exactly. We never will, probably, but we can infer that it must be something along these lines.

 

As for blaming Brandon... If you didn't like the execution of the scenes, that is one thing, but I can't imagine that Jordan didn't dictate these particular scenes on some level or explain what we were told. The ultimate reasoning about the DO being necessary and never being the enemy just struck me as very much being Jordan.

 

I'm posting from my phone. Please forgive spelling errors and the like.

[Agitel]

I would really hope that RJ wouldn't leave us with: Rand saved the world, losing the ability to channel in the process... but on the plus side, he found a magical pipe, so he can still smoke whenever he wants. A little too anticlimactic for either author, in my opinion.

Yeah...that was RJ.

 

Sorry for the double post.

[NitroS]

Rand is going to die, just like the men that get gentled and the men that entered the stetting during the breaking. He wont be able to live without the one power for long. Since there is no notes on Rand after the last battle besides the lighting of the pipe, we have to assume that hes going to die within 5 years sorry rand fans.

[jack of shadows]

@erdrick,

i asked for an aternate ending,and you gave me a good one.

i prefer your ending to the one written in the book.(after much delibaration i must say).

it is my understanding that the crux of what you wrote in three or four posts is this:

the cyclic nature of the wheel of time with its endless repetition of "last" battles works

in the dark one's favor,he has to win only once and it's game over for the world.

so simple,yet so very true.

rand won this "last" battle and rode off into the sunset happy and free,but what about tomorrow?

unfortunately we all know the answer to that: in a very small village a young shepherd........

sorry to drag you back into this mess erdrick hahaha,i just can't get enough of this beautiful mess.

[jack of shadows]

@nitros,

"we have to assume that he's going to die within 5 years,sorry rand fans".

newsflash nitros:there are no guarantees in life.

egwene told tuon that she is planning to live for centuries,enough time to watch

the seanchan empire crumble-a few days later she was dead!

after the last battle,rand woke up with a new body,a bag full of coins,a good sword

and rode off into the sunset when almost all the other protagonists are saddled with

the thankless task of ruling and rebuilding:elayne with andor and cairhien,lan and

nynaeve with malkier,perrin and faile with saldaea,tam with the two rivers,mat with the

seanchan lunatics,logain with the black tower,cadusane with the white,aviendha with

the new aiel purpose..not sure what min,moiraine and thom will do.

so who cares if he lives five more days,five more weeks,five more months or more

when he is so carefree and happy?

i have read the last two pages more than ten times and rand's happiness really shines

through,personally for him the outcome of the last battle was more positive than he dared

to hope;"i will not walk out of this pit alive"."he no longer cared.survival was not his goal.

it had not been for some time".

[Suttree]

Rand is going to die, just like the men that get gentled and the men that entered the stetting during the breaking. He wont be able to live without the one power for long. Since there is no notes on Rand after the last battle besides the lighting of the pipe, we have to assume that hes going to die within 5 years sorry rand fans.

Even if this wasn't making huge leaps of logic(which it is.) It totally ignores the fact that Cadsuane was able to gentle men, reintegrate them into society and have them live an almost normal life span. The persons mind state plays a huge role.

[woomia]

I think Rand is going to out his life in peace. I think he's earned it.

[NitroS]

@nitros,

"we have to assume that he's going to die within 5 years,sorry rand fans".

newsflash nitros:there are no guarantees in life.

egwene told tuon that she is planning to live for centuries,enough time to watch

the seanchan empire crumble-a few days later she was dead!

after the last battle,rand woke up with a new body,a bag full of coins,a good sword

and rode off into the sunset when almost all the other protagonists are saddled with

the thankless task of ruling and rebuilding:elayne with andor and cairhien,lan and

nynaeve with malkier,perrin and faile with saldaea,tam with the two rivers,mat with the

seanchan lunatics,logain with the black tower,cadusane with the white,aviendha with

the new aiel purpose..not sure what min,moiraine and thom will do.

so who cares if it's five more days,five more weeks,five more months or more?

rand rode off carefree and happy.

i have read the last two pages more than ten times and rand's happiness really shines

through,personally for him,the outcome of the last battle was more positive than he dared

to hope;"i will not walk out of this pit alive"."he no longer cared.survival was not his goal.

it had not been for some time".

you dont understand i literally just got off the phone to him and he said that hes missing the true source like crazy and is getting depressed.

 

On serious note it doesnt matter what you argue anymore RJ left no notes on the matter he could get struck by lightning or stabbed in his sleep by someone trying to steal all that money of his, or he could go on to live for 500 years its upto to decide and ive decided he dies hes lived long enough and killed too many people pre vog for my liking karma is coming for him.

[jjp]

 

 

 

 

Sure, but if the "source" is all from the DO, as is put forth at the end of AMoL, then is that not as directly related as you can get?

You can't have your cake and eat it.

The fact that this was so hyped up by Rand telling everyone how he was going to kill the DO is what grates, because the reason he decided not to is something that not only has never been touched on previously, we've had plenty of reason to believe otherwise.

I'm not upset at the idea, but at the total disconnect between that idea and everything that came before it.

Turns out the Creator didn't even create free will, and nobody has it without help from the DO. Which means it isn't really free will if it depends on influence from outside sources.

Rand in VOG rediscovered "love" and THAT was the crux of the setup - the DO offered none and Moridin as foil had none. The free will thing didn't fit the dynamic that was being laid out at all.

When you think about it now, Moridin was right. They are all pawns, and any "choices" they think they have are only fueled by nebulous "influence" from the DO and presumably the Creator.

The whole thing fits thematically with the rest of the series, especially with Perrin's inner struggle over the necessity of violence and the Tinkers. It fits with the whole theme of balance that's been present in every arc and stretched throughout the series. There's no disconnect.

 

And the way you phrase it, you keep implying that the Dark One and the Creator are pulling the strings from outside the Pattern.

 

Well, to your first point, it there was a big reveal at the end of the book that the DO had a wife and the Creator had a wife, and they both like to crochet, and that it was actually a struggle between the wives of the DO and the Creator who were in a battle of knitting the Pattern together, THAT would fit "thematically" with the theme of "balance" in the series. Just because something follows an established theme doesn't mean that it makes any kind of sense with the in-story universe as it's previously been described.

 

And to your second point, I'm phrasing it that way because that's exactly what is revealed in AMoL. Rand let the DO live because the DO somehow projects "evil" into the souls of every person. If the DO dies, as we saw, this element of evil is removed and people aren't able to choose their fates, and in a sense become "Turned" for the Light.

 

How would you explain that without the DO having influence over people's choices from outside the Pattern?

Rand wouldn't just be killing a being, he'd be eliminating the 'evil' in men and women. Evil exists, but as a manifested entity can't intelligently mess with the Pattern. Yes, the Creator apparently relied in the DO to create free will in his creation? So what? Men and women need that capacity to protect themselves and for the world not to be stagnant.

 

The evil in Mordeth is either something alien to the Pattern, something else, or he's a 'corrupted' part of the DO... Inverted. but it is quite clearly unnatural, which is the point. We don't know exactly. We never will, probably, but we can infer that it must be something along these lines.

 

As for blaming Brandon... If you didn't like the execution of the scenes, that is one thing, but I can't imagine that Jordan didn't dictate these particular scenes on some level or explain what we were told. The ultimate reasoning about the DO being necessary and never being the enemy just struck me as very much being Jordan.

 

I'm posting from my phone. Please forgive spelling errors and the like.

 

This is the first we learned that "evil in men and women" is apparently tied somehow to the existence of the DO. That's what I'm criticizing, and all of the can of worms that comes with it.

[jack of shadows]

@suttree,

"cadsuane was able to gentle men,reintegrate them into society and have them

live an almost normal life span"

what's that got to do with rand's so called new condition? he was not gentled!

as per my understanding,you're talking about cadsuane specifically,not

just any random aes sedai because to the best of my knowledge after logain was

gentled ,he was not reintagrated into anything,the only thing the white tower did

was to watch over him all the time.

back to cadsuane,she personally has the ability to help a man who was gentled.

rand may or may not have a problem after the last battle,but he will never ask cadsuane for help.never.

bringing cadsuane abilities as an example,is completely immaterial.

i couldn't agree with you more about one thing: the person state of mind plays a huge role in his/her

ability to live afterwards,and judging rand's state of mind from the last two pages,he'll live a very long life.

[TristanWebb]

Cadsuane doesn't have some special magical power to reintegrate them, she just spent the time to do so. AS gentle men and then leave them to their own devices, Logain wandered around the tower with nothing to do and not allowed to leave. Stilling is usually followed by execution and the victims are criminals anyway (aside from BA antics anyway) so reintegration wouldn't be attempted.

 

The two women we have seen stilled didn't waste away like AS assume they do, though they weren't stilled very long and the one burnout did fine after she got laid.

[jack of shadows]

@benevolentcow,

please remind me who is the burnout?lololol

[Suttree]

@jack

 

All I was doing I showing that its possible to survive with the correct mindset(which is what Cadsuanes method helps with). Not that I think it's necessary for Rand mind but if anyone would be in a good psychological state at this point it's him. It's hardly immaterial to show that it's possible for men to survive contrary to Nitros' claim.

 

To address Setalle's burning out, yes the husband helped nurse her back but the differences between burning out and stilling likely also play a huge role in getting better. It would be much easier when one isn't constantly sensing the source.

[jack of shadows]

@suttree

a burnout cannot feel the source anymore?

[Suttree]

Correct, someone who is burned out can no longer sense the source. It is why Setalle could not feel anything through the a'dam while someone like Siuan could. The connection is simply gone, whereas someone who has been stilled has just had that connection cut. Also why burning out likely cant be healed. Much like a missing limb, the connection is gone.

[Dagon Thyne]

Am I the only one that thought Rand would end up killing Moridin?

 

For a long time, I thought the "To Live You Must Die" line from the prophesy meant that Rand would have to kill Moridjn during the Last Battle, and through their link, would kill part of himself, such as his ability to channel, and maybe part of his memory (i.e. his memories from the Age of Legends).  The part of him  that was linked to Moridin would die, and the rest of him would live in.  And he must do this to survive.  I can not be the only one who thought this. 

[Swigaro]

Demandred, when shielding Taim thinks that drawing the True Power through someone else runs the risk of burning them out.  At the time, he was using a comparatively small amount of the TP.  When Moridin was drawn, against his will into the circle for the sealing of the bore, he was drawing a huge amount, using Calandor to supplement his power.  I'd say that the reason that Rand can't sense the sense the TP or the OP after the body swap is because Moridin, not Rand was burned out.  Rand, or perhaps more accurately, Rand's body would have been protected from burning out by being a part of the circle with Nyneave and Moirane.  Is it not possible that, though burned out, or (again for accuracy) occupying a body that has been burned out, Rand does not experience the negative side effects of severing or burning out because he did not experience the actual event?  Stilling was, I believe described as an incredibly painful experience.  I can't imagine that being burned out is any more pleasant.  Perhaps this injury, for lack of a better term is part of what causes the loss of the will to live that those who are stilled or burned out experience. 

[Entreri]

Logain PoV: "channeling like none he'd ever felt before, not even at the cleansing. Such power".  

 

Thus Rand was channeling much more saidin than at the Cleansing, likely enough to destroy the world in one blow (akin to the end of book 12) and this burned him out imo.

However, given his contentement and RELIELF, there is no way he is going to commit suicide. "No saidin in the void, nothing. He paused, then smiled and felt an enormous relief".   

 

Rand through Moridin was drawing most of the TP, easily enough to destroy the world in 1 blow.  Callandor has no upper limit given it has no buffer.  This is why Rand could destroy Shai'tan, due to the titanic amount of Power he was wielding (TP/saidin). Perhaps the Power of the Choden Kal may have been insufficient to destroy Shai'tan, even if saidin/saidar were not instantly tainted.  

[Dagon Thyne]

Logain PoV: "channeling like none he'd ever felt before, not even at the cleansing. Such power".  

 

Thus Rand was channeling much more saidin than at the Cleansing, likely enough to destroy the world in one blow (akin to the end of book 12) and this burned him out imo.

However, given his contentement and RELIELF, there is no way he is going to commit suicide. "No saidin in the void, nothing. He paused, then smiled and felt an enormous relief".   

 

Rand through Moridin was drawing most of the TP, easily enough to destroy the world in 1 blow.  Callandor has no upper limit given it has no buffer.  This is why Rand could destroy Shai'tan, due to the titanic amount of Power he was wielding (TP/saidin). Perhaps the Power of the Choden Kal may have been insufficient to destroy Shai'tan, even if saidin/saidar were not instantly tainted.  

Welll, even if he did miss Saidin, people usually only kill themselves after being severed.  It stems from being able to still feel the power, but never able to touch it again.