Not In The Book Discussion (Full Spoilers)

[Agitel]

We never did find out how Trollocs got through the supposedly guarded Caemlyn Waygate, do you? Or how about the balescreams that Perrin and Faile each experienced separately. No explanation given or hinted right? I mean obviously we can speculate (e.g. DFs killed the guards, or Demandred was balefiring stuff at random, etc), but it would be nice to have those loose ends tied.

 

I'm pretty sure the Waygate was explained. Darkfriends were among Elayne's own guards.

 

I'm not sure about what happened to cause the Pattern to shake as it did.

[wintermute]

 

I'm pretty sure the Waygate was explained. Darkfriends were among Elayne's own guards.

 

 

Oh yeah, d'uh. I need sleep

[Grond]

Ok...First, I've been trolling this site for a number of years and I have had a LOT of my questions answered for me just by reading through the books again and again and reading through the posts on here. This is an AWESOME resource for all things WoT and I hope that it doesn't fade away because the series is over.

 

Second, I want to apologize for the length of this post...it's going to be long.

 

Third, having read this thread I have to stick up for the story/books that got me reading in the first place: The Lord of the Rings. You can't compare the two works (WoT and LoTR) as they are driven by two totally different themes. LoTR is about loss, winning at a terrible cost and the end of magic/fantasy in a world. WoT is about hope, change and new beginnings. PLEASE read the LoTR if you have only seen the movies. I have read the series about 20 times and it still pulls my emotions. Was the ending long? Yep. Was it necessary and tied up all the loose ends? Again, yep!

 

Fourthly, I think that with the HUGE shoes that had to be filled that B. Sanderson did a fantastic job. This series isn't like a set of instructions to put together a table...it is a living work of art that has taken the better part of 23 years to complete. There were literally DOZENS of plots and sub-plots running through the story from just about the first book. Read the first book, and tell me how many other plots are going on...then read the fourth book. This story expanded in a HUGE way and to ask B. Sanderson to reach into the mind of RJ to tie up all the loose ends would not only be (nearly) impossible, but I think it would have taken a book about 2-3 times longer to tie every loose end up. Were there some things that I was disappointed about how they ended? Sure (Fain, for one. But I'll get back to him later). But, IMHO, that is what makes this a great series...it left things open to your imagination (not only that, but I saw a LOT of complaining about how the end of LoTR got dragged out...make up your minds!!).

 

Fifth, here are my “takes” on how some things were resolved, answers to some of the questions that have been posed (at least in my mind) and my take on Fain…

 

The Voice = DO. Remember that Rand not only was VERY close to turning to the “dark side” but he was also linked in a way to Moradin…who could communicate with the DO.  I think the fact that the DO was surprised that Rand was just outside of the cavern when he gets rid of the knife proves that.  Think about it this way…when someone call you on your cell phone, does that mean they know where you are?  The DO could communicate with Rand because of Rands link to Moradin, nothing more.

 

Nakomi = Creator.  The creator is the opposite of the DO, right? As the DO is (implied) to be male, wouldn’t the creator be female?  The DO is sneaky, circumspect and never comes right at you in an attack…wouldn’t the Creator be more “Aiel-like”, straight-ahead and charging in? As for the Creator not getting involved directly, that is exactly what happens,,,until the end when the DO is locked away, and even then only preserves Rands soul in a healthy body.

 

Rand’s “light-powers” = Rand being TOTALLY good.  To a DF, the light is blinding and that is what he is now….light to fight the darkness.  There are different “grades” of DF, right? Those that are steeped in the DO more fully would have a more adverse effect toward Rand/LTT. There would certainly be a different reaction between, say, someone who is a DF and uses the connection for minor political gain as opposed to, say, a DF who would sacrifice all of the people in the city that he was governing to the forces of the shadow.  Hence, the difference in the reactions to the “light” in Rand.

 

Finally…Padin Fain.  I was kinda mad at the way this fiendish fiend ended up…until I started to think about it.  Rand had grown WAY beyond the reach of Fain, to the point that Rand had TOTALLY destroyed Fain’s “city” but had used it to get rid of the taint.  To Rand, Fain would have taken about as much effort to dispose of as an ant.  The closest Fain ever got to being able to “get rid of “ Rand is when he attacked the camp of the rebels.  Rand had outgrown Fain and in the end, Fain was no threat to him.

 

Anyway, I’ve gone on too long.  Great story, sad that it’s over.

 

I only have one last question: NOW what am I supposed to read??

 

[JSSheridan]

In an earlier book after the Cleansing, there was a meeting of the Forsaken, and one of them states that without the Taint, the Forsaken that channeled Saidin weren't as tightly bound to the D.O.

 

I thought that would foreshadow one of them, Demandred would have been my choice, turning back to the light.

[Suttree]

I only have one last question: NOW what am I supposed to read??

 

Luckily this is a great time for high quality fantasy.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prince_of_Nothing

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Kingkiller_Chronicle

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_First_Law

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malazan_Book_of_the_Fallen

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gentlemen_Bastard_Sequence#The_Gentleman_Bastard_Sequence

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Steel_Remains

[Red Hand Man]

What happened to the trollocs that General Tylee encounters on the Shadow Coast?  Could probably just have been a scouting party that found out the Seanchan were ready.

[Guest mmoore]

After reading much of this thread I have come up with the following theory on Nakomi and the body transfer.

 

If this whole cycle repeats over and over again then it stands to reason the whole final plan for the good guys is really just a rehash of a plan that a previous dragon concocted.  Some being had to initially create a male sa'angreal that also served as a True Power sa'angreal that was also flawed to allow the wielder to be collared.

 

So at some point in the past, a male dragon and two women hatched this same plan and probably sealed up the DO.  This was probably the cycle that ended prior to the Bore being created.  I suspect that what happened that time though was that instead of the Dragon transfering bodies with a man, one of two things happened.  Either the Nae'blis of his time was a woman who he transfered bodies into, or he transfered into one of the two women assisting him with the trap.  Such is Nakomi born and able to assist the current dragon who finally was able to repeat his/her performance into saving himself.  Also, we know that a male soul inhabiting a female body can use Saidin so Aviendha wouldn't have been able to sense Nakomi's ability to channel.  Or Nakomi may not need to channel and doesn't possess the ability presently.

 

Consider that after Rand comes to in Moridin's body, the author specifically says "JUST" Rand Al'Thor implying that he is no longer sharing a body with LTT.  The previous Dragon's soul that successfully sprung the trap of Calandor in a previous iteration could have been divorced from the whole chain of lives of the Dragon that is tied to the wheel.

[Vardar]

We never did find out how Trollocs got through the supposedly guarded Caemlyn Waygate, do you? Or how about the balescreams that Perrin and Faile each experienced separately. No explanation given or hinted right? I mean obviously we can speculate (e.g. DFs killed the guards, or Demandred was balefiring stuff at random, etc), but it would be nice to have those loose ends tied.

 

 

Not only that, let's discuss the logistics of an army going thru a gateway that's wide enough for 1 horse, and a door in a basement that's wide enough for 2. the Logistics make 0 sense, Less than 0 sense. It's damn near mathematically impossible, however we have  beaten that one to death numerous times. Yes I'm still bitter about it, and I always will be. 

 

Random question, did anyone see the Perrin Lanfear thing coming? I mean, I'm rarely surprised by anything, I pride myself on that, and I was TOTALLY taken aback by that. Like whoa. 

[MountaineerWV]

 

 

We never did find out how Trollocs got through the supposedly guarded Caemlyn Waygate, do you? Or how about the balescreams that Perrin and Faile each experienced separately. No explanation given or hinted right? I mean obviously we can speculate (e.g. DFs killed the guards, or Demandred was balefiring stuff at random, etc), but it would be nice to have those loose ends tied.

 

 

Not only that, let's discuss the logistics of an army going thru a gateway that's wide enough for 1 horse, and a door in a basement that's wide enough for 2. the Logistics make 0 sense, Less than 0 sense. It's damn near mathematically impossible, however we have  beaten that one to death numerous times. Yes I'm still bitter about it, and I always will be. 

 

Random question, did anyone see the Perrin Lanfear thing coming? I mean, I'm rarely surprised by anything, I pride myself on that, and I was TOTALLY taken aback by that. Like whoa. 

 

 

 

Haha, I hear you. I think I did break it down using numbers at one point. Flow rate, available storage space, etc and it just DOESN'T MAKE SENSE!

 

I definitely DID NOT see Perrin killing Lanfear. I thought that she might turn back to the Light actually.

[mbuehner]

 

 

We never did find out how Trollocs got through the supposedly guarded Caemlyn Waygate, do you? Or how about the balescreams that Perrin and Faile each experienced separately. No explanation given or hinted right? I mean obviously we can speculate (e.g. DFs killed the guards, or Demandred was balefiring stuff at random, etc), but it would be nice to have those loose ends tied.

 

 

Not only that, let's discuss the logistics of an army going thru a gateway that's wide enough for 1 horse, and a door in a basement that's wide enough for 2. the Logistics make 0 sense, Less than 0 sense. It's damn near mathematically impossible, however we have  beaten that one to death numerous times. Yes I'm still bitter about it, and I always will be. 

 

Random question, did anyone see the Perrin Lanfear thing coming? I mean, I'm rarely surprised by anything, I pride myself on that, and I was TOTALLY taken aback by that. Like whoa. 

 

 

Haha, I hear you. I think I did break it down using numbers at one point. Flow rate, available storage space, etc and it just DOESN'T MAKE SENSE!

 

I definitely DID NOT see Perrin killing Lanfear. I thought that she might turn back to the Light actually.

 

Thats the same argument against gateway utility and has the same dangers. If you start throwing numbers around that seem reasonable you can get yourself into trouble.  Lets take the width of the waygate- how many trollocs can you fit through at a time? 1? 2? 3? Thats a 300% difference instantly. It might be 1000 trollocs an hour, or it might be 3000. The width of the waygate is really the only hard and fast determinative factor. Creative channeling can account for most anything else (expanding your 'landing' room and its exits, bringing in supplies by travelling, etc).  I think its reasonable that you could dump 50 fades and a thousand trollocs or so through a waygate so fast that nobody in Caemlyn could bottle you up in time... particularly with the excellent timing they managed with so many leaders out of the city.

 

Consider- you can empty a sports stadium of maybe 100,000 people, not hurrying very much or coordinated hardly at all, within a little over an hour or so (granted with more exits).

[madelineb]

Isn't it possible the vision of Rand in the boat with his harem still true.. that's his eventual real death?

Had not seen that theory put but that actually makes a lot of sense, good call.

[MountaineerWV]

Thats the same argument against gateway utility and has the same dangers. If you start throwing numbers around that seem reasonable you can get yourself into trouble.  Lets take the width of the waygate- how many trollocs can you fit through at a time? 1? 2? 3? Thats a 300% difference instantly. It might be 1000 trollocs an hour, or it might be 3000. The width of the waygate is really the only hard and fast determinative factor. Creative channeling can account for most anything else (expanding your 'landing' room and its exits, bringing in supplies by travelling, etc).  I think its reasonable that you could dump 50 fades and a thousand trollocs or so through a waygate so fast that nobody in Caemlyn could bottle you up in time... particularly with the excellent timing they managed with so many leaders out of the city.

 

Consider- you can empty a sports stadium of maybe 100,000 people, not hurrying very much or coordinated hardly at all, within a little over an hour or so (granted with more exits).

 

There are certainly many ways to get oneself in trouble trying to put numbers on paper. I don't think the stadium is a good example because the Trollocs are facing bottlenecks on both sides of the gateway due to space restrictions, PLUS the Black Wind on the inside that can kill at instantaneously for an infinite amount of Trollocs, and a warning system on the outside of the gateway in Caemlyn that will go off at the site of a Trolloc.

[Vardar]

 

 

 

We never did find out how Trollocs got through the supposedly guarded Caemlyn Waygate, do you? Or how about the balescreams that Perrin and Faile each experienced separately. No explanation given or hinted right? I mean obviously we can speculate (e.g. DFs killed the guards, or Demandred was balefiring stuff at random, etc), but it would be nice to have those loose ends tied.

 

 

Not only that, let's discuss the logistics of an army going thru a gateway that's wide enough for 1 horse, and a door in a basement that's wide enough for 2. the Logistics make 0 sense, Less than 0 sense. It's damn near mathematically impossible, however we have  beaten that one to death numerous times. Yes I'm still bitter about it, and I always will be. 

 

Random question, did anyone see the Perrin Lanfear thing coming? I mean, I'm rarely surprised by anything, I pride myself on that, and I was TOTALLY taken aback by that. Like whoa. 

 

 

Haha, I hear you. I think I did break it down using numbers at one point. Flow rate, available storage space, etc and it just DOESN'T MAKE SENSE!

 

I definitely DID NOT see Perrin killing Lanfear. I thought that she might turn back to the Light actually.

 

Thats the same argument against gateway utility and has the same dangers. If you start throwing numbers around that seem reasonable you can get yourself into trouble.  Lets take the width of the waygate- how many trollocs can you fit through at a time? 1? 2? 3? Thats a 300% difference instantly. It might be 1000 trollocs an hour, or it might be 3000. The width of the waygate is really the only hard and fast determinative factor. Creative channeling can account for most anything else (expanding your 'landing' room and its exits, bringing in supplies by travelling, etc).  I think its reasonable that you could dump 50 fades and a thousand trollocs or so through a waygate so fast that nobody in Caemlyn could bottle you up in time... particularly with the excellent timing they managed with so many leaders out of the city.

 

Consider- you can empty a sports stadium of maybe 100,000 people, not hurrying very much or coordinated hardly at all, within a little over an hour or so (granted with more exits).

 

2 Trollocs at a stretch, since they're about the width of a horse. But in the series they make an issue of how many people can travel thru a gateway at one time. Hell, Baewer even does the math and says it'll take a while! Also, where would you keep the 50 fades and 1000 trollocs? Surely not in that basement!?!?!?! The point was they would be emptying out of the basement long before they got more than 100 or so trollocs in there, and the alarm would have been sounded before they could get more than a thousand. Calvery charges would have DESTROYED them (Like they did in Maradon) then get outside the basement and pick them off as they exit two at a freaking time. 

 

 

Emptying that stadium has about 50 exits every one 10 times the size of the way gate. 

 

And that's not even taking into account the fact that the ways themselves are the size of roads right? HOW LONG WAS THAT TROLLOC LINE?!?!!

[Vardar]

 

Thats the same argument against gateway utility and has the same dangers. If you start throwing numbers around that seem reasonable you can get yourself into trouble.  Lets take the width of the waygate- how many trollocs can you fit through at a time? 1? 2? 3? Thats a 300% difference instantly. It might be 1000 trollocs an hour, or it might be 3000. The width of the waygate is really the only hard and fast determinative factor. Creative channeling can account for most anything else (expanding your 'landing' room and its exits, bringing in supplies by travelling, etc).  I think its reasonable that you could dump 50 fades and a thousand trollocs or so through a waygate so fast that nobody in Caemlyn could bottle you up in time... particularly with the excellent timing they managed with so many leaders out of the city.

 

Consider- you can empty a sports stadium of maybe 100,000 people, not hurrying very much or coordinated hardly at all, within a little over an hour or so (granted with more exits).

 

There are certainly many ways to get oneself in trouble trying to put numbers on paper. I don't think the stadium is a good example because the Trollocs are facing bottlenecks on both sides of the gateway due to space restrictions, PLUS the Black Wind on the inside that can kill at instantaneously for an infinite amount of Trollocs, and a warning system on the outside of the gateway in Caemlyn that will go off at the site of a Trolloc.

 

 

Exactly. Wonder how many they loss to just people falling off the side? (And that's thinking that the black wind ignored them completely)

[kaggzz]

 

 

2 Trollocs at a stretch, since they're about the width of a horse. But in the series they make an issue of how many people can travel thru a gateway at one time. Hell, Baewer even does the math and says it'll take a while! Also, where would you keep the 50 fades and 1000 trollocs? Surely not in that basement!?!?!?! The point was they would be emptying out of the basement long before they got more than 100 or so trollocs in there, and the alarm would have been sounded before they could get more than a thousand. Calvery charges would have DESTROYED them (Like they did in Maradon) then get outside the basement and pick them off as they exit two at a freaking time. 

 

 

Emptying that stadium has about 50 exits every one 10 times the size of the way gate. 

 

And that's not even taking into account the fact that the ways themselves are the size of roads right? HOW LONG WAS THAT TROLLOC LINE?!?!!

Ok, that is the one scene I would have liked from the Trolloc perspective-

 

Thog had the head of a wolf, which was aweful because he could smell the fear of the thousands of trollocs lined up from the entrance to the ways in the Blght to Camelyn.  Thog had been waiting for what felt like days, and after eating the trolloc in front of him, he was growing bored again.  Thog could only poop off the sides of the ways so many times before it got boring, even if he was pooping right onto some other trolloc closer to the exit."

 

I would imagine that only a few fades could have secured the basement, and a pack of fades in front to keep the streets clear and a few in the back to harry the trollocs out would work- though you'd have to be feeding them through during the whole battle.  Even assuming a thousand Trollocs, running they could get 100 in the streets by the time word got anywhere.  And with darkfriends already in place to keep the alarm down even if for a few minutes would make it hard to get word out in time.  It's a Zerg rush with a few banelings to pop the defenses then let your zerglings run free. 

 

Also if there was 2 guards that were darkfriends at the waygate, who is to say there wasn't 4 at some times?  They could have been bringing in Trollocs and fades into the city, stashing them in darkfriends' basements for months.  I mean, it's not like the captain of the guard was ever a darkfriend or anything so that's just silly right?

 

* edited out giant quote

[glorion]

IT (birgitte I think) explicitly states that those guarding the waygate were DFs.

[donigor]

I'm curious: we must nog forget that we will have the chance to read new material 2 times after AMoL

 

- River of Souls in the book 'Unfettered'

- some notes from RJ in the encyclopedia.

 

Maybe it will answer some questions we have, although I do not have many stressing topics I want to see clarified.

 

What do you guys think: which POV will we get to read? What is the "River of Souls", seeing as it is our only clue?

[Barid Bel Medar]

It has been confirmed that the River of Souls PoV is Demandred

[Atheose]

I'm not questioning the actual ability of the creator to do both things...I'm questioning how that fits into common sense in am author-to-reader sense.  It doesn't work for me.  They each come across individually as the creator, but I really dont see how they could both be the creator.

 

It makes complete sense, especially as a parallel to the DO. The DO has both his own booming voice and Shadar Haran, so logically the creator would have the same.

[garryturk]

It has been confirmed that the River of Souls PoV is Demandred

OK, I missed that, is that in a signing report or something?  Can you link, plainly I'm missing much goodness.

This is good news, I wasn't that bothered by the abrupt appearance and scant details of Demandred's doings in AMOL but if this sequence gives more depth on the background to his Shara activities it has to be good.

[donigor]

 

It has been confirmed that the River of Souls PoV is Demandred

OK, I missed that, is that in a signing report or something?  Can you link, plainly I'm missing much goodness.

This is good news, I wasn't that bothered by the abrupt appearance and scant details of Demandred's doings in AMOL but if this sequence gives more depth on the background to his Shara activities it has to be good.

 

Agreed!

[Barid Bel Medar]

Here it is: 

 

349. Loialson

VIEW ALL BY LOIALSON | MONDAY JANUARY 14, 2013 02:32PM EST | AMENDED ON MONDAY JANUARY 14, 2013 02:33PM EST

285. theemptyone


The River of Souls excerpt is a Demandred POV they cut from aMoL. Brandon informed me of this in person at a signing.

He's said this elsewhere as well.

 

From Tor Website, here is the link: http://www.tor.com/blogs/2013/01/the-wheel-of-time-a-memory-of-light-spoiler-review#316116 

 

It is an accurate report, to the best of my knowledge. I would say 95% certain. 

 

 

 

[Terez]

I slipped that bit into the database a few days ago; I was wondering who would find it first. I didn't know Loialson had finally mentioned it. If you look at Loialson's report in the database (which I transcribed from his audio recording), Brandon went into some more detail there. He asked us to take that bit out until after AMOL came out.

[mbuehner]

2 Trollocs at a stretch, since they're about the width of a horse. But in the series they make an issue of how many people can travel thru a gateway at one time. Hell, Baewer even does the math and says it'll take a while!

 

Right but Baewer is the voice of Jordan/Sanderson, and theyre the ones we're taking issue with. The argument is that its a cop out to minimize moving armies via gateway, so you can get you high drama of building bridges to escape the trolloc army you intentionally drew out of Caemlyn and other nonsense.

 

 

Also, where would you keep the 50 fades and 1000 trollocs

The fades are quite good at staying hidden, and Rahvin seemed to stash a fair number pretty effectively, doubtless by the same route. Regardless, most of the army was in FoM, and who would be on teh lookout for a shadowspawn army to suddenly appear in the center of the city?

 

 

? Surely not in that basement!?!?!?! The point was they would be emptying out of the basement long before they got more than 100 or so trollocs in there, and the alarm would have been sounded before they could get more than a thousand

 

Maybe, maybe not. You were arguing for Baewer a minute ago, and now you're the one arguing against cannon. Its what happened. And maybe the alarm was raise, how long does it take to organize a defense in a city utterly unprepared for it with its armies and leaders missing?

 

 

Calvery charges would have DESTROYED them (Like they did in Maradon) then get outside the basement and pick them off as they exit two at a freaking time. 

 

What Calvary? Is there any mention of the few remaining defenders having some that just happen to be saddled up and ready to deal with this?

 

This isn't Maradon. There is no Iteralde here. The first couple fists of trollocs and fades AND DREADLORDS would have secure the local block in a manner of minutes, then you're talking about trying to cordon off a city block (and not a borderlands city built for such things) working against time as more trollocs poor in every second.

[mbuehner]

There are certainly many ways to get oneself in trouble trying to put numbers on paper. I don't think the stadium is a good example because the Trollocs are facing bottlenecks on both sides of the gateway due to space restrictions, PLUS the Black Wind on the inside that can kill at instantaneously for an infinite amount of Trollocs, and a warning system on the outside of the gateway in Caemlyn that will go off at the site of a Trolloc.

 

Its not a great example- stadium is better suited as an example for an army using gateways since you can have multiple 'exits'.  But the point is we're just taking numbers for granted. I'd like to hear a drill sergeant or somebody with some experience training marching and troop movements chime in on how many troops you could march by a given location in columns of two in an hour. I suspect its considerably more than Baelwar suggested and the books take for granted (or as a necessary plot contrivance anyway).

 

And one of my big questions is whether the Black Wind is still roaming the ways and/or if hte Shadow has a way to neutralize it. I suspect something like that. 

 

If there was a warning system at the waygate the black sisters and darkfriends that took the waygate over from the caemlyn side doubtless deactivated it. For all we know they murdered everyone on that block.