Prophecy; New and Fulfilled. (Full Spoilers)

[Sabio]

 

When he was killed by the Darkhound then brought back when Rand balefired the Darkhound.

 

When did Mat die, unlinking him with the horn?

He never died, he would of died but he didn't actually die.

[probe907]

 

 

When he was killed by the Darkhound then brought back when Rand balefired the Darkhound.

 

When did Mat die, unlinking him with the horn?

He didn't die in Rhuidean on the tree or with the DH incident. It was Rahvin.

 

And that's infodumped toward the end of the book, just so we don't have to speculate :/.

[Iroquois Pliskin]

edit: answer to fionwe1987

 

But the quote wasn't like that at all.

 

http://www.theoryland.com/intvmain.php?i=188#18

Wotmania

Can Moridin use a male angreal if he channels the True Power?

 

Robert Jordan

No.

It's as straightforward as it gets. But Moridin indeed did use a male angreal (granted, Callandor is a sa'angreal but that does not turn this into an Aes Sedai answer) when he channeled the True Power.

 

Why I'm bothered by this: I was one of those that thought TP and OP would be used together to seal the Bore. Exactly as it happened. TP to touch the DO to protect from tainting. I was sure the three become one meant three Powers used together. I was sure magnifying taint meant it could be used to amplify TP and I was sure two women in a circle meant saidar would be needed as well. Though I thought Rand would draw it directly either by his link with Moridin or his allowance in TGS, not through a forced circle.

Then I saw the interview. And the theory fell apart.

 

Flawed or not, atypical or not, Callandor still is a sa'angreal. And we've always been told that TP was a matter of Shai'tan giving access. What happened is a contradiction to both.

No it's not, one the DO is just a source. It's been stated time and time again that drawing the OP is similar to diverting streams from the ocean. Once the stream has been started then it's seperate and outside the main body. This is why weaker people can't cut off stronger people from the source. If you're strong enough the stream of power coming into you becomes to much for any one person to just snip. 

 

Basically Rand get's allows both the DO and Moridin to believe that they've won and the DO allows Moridin to channel the TP for the killing blow not knowing that Callandor is a TP sa'angreal. It would stand to reason that most angreal and sa'angreal don't channel the TP. Even if there are some that do one would have to be on of the forsaken and one of the forsake who had access to the TP to ever know that this was possible. RJ wasn't saying that angreal universally cannot ever channel the TP, he was saying that all the angreal in existance cannot channel the TP which is true. Only Callandor, which is a sa'angreal, can channel the TP because it's specifically made that way.

[Barid Bel Medar]

Indeed, I believe that RJ's comment is misinterpreted. 

 

Using an ordinary angreal or sa'angreal, Moridin could not amplify the TP. 

 

However, Callandor is NOT a normal sa'angreal. It has been constantly stated that it is different from the rest. 

 

Callandor is both a sa'angreal and a True Power sa'angreal. two different things in one sword. 

 

Two separate functions in one object. This could not be done with any other sa'/angreal. 

 

A cruder way to describe it would be an air conditioner that cools only v a reverse cycle air-conditioner which can also heat as well as cool. 

 

You can't do it with the average air conditioner, you need a reverse cycle one. 

 

Similarly Callandor has the ability to "heat" (the TP access). Technically, Callandor is not a sa'angreal (air-conditioner) it is in a field of it's own where it can do both. (reverse Cycle) Those in the book think of it as a sa'angreal because they don't know any better. They don't know until the end that it can channel the TP. It is a mistaken assumption on their part. 

 

There was no lie here, however, there was of course an omission  But it is obvious that RJ would leave that out. He wouldn't say. "No, sa'angreal doesn't use the TP. However, Callandor is different, and it is both. Just so you know, that's a major secret that will seal the DO, so forget I said that." 

[Aver]

The Tinkers finding the song prophecy should be fulfilled. I know that RJ said that they would never find it. However, Rand knows at least the Aiel song of growing and he knows the historical implications of the songs from his LTT memories. That with his Rhuidean memories means that he should have easily been able to connect the dots because he sees the Tinkers leave the Aiel in search of the song in his rhuidean memories. Rand knows that the song the tinkers search for is/are the growing songs.The only way I can see it not happening is somehow Rand knows that it's not the time for the songs to return yet and maybe that is what he is referring to in his Rand/Mat scene. 

[Terez]

It wasn't a prophecy. And while Rand could fill in the holes of their forgotten history, I'm not so sure they would be happy about it, any more than the Aiel were. Especially seeing as how the Voice appears to have been a predominantly Aiel talent...and the Tinkers have bred out the blood...

[SinisterDeath]

i wonder if we'll ever find out the prophecies concerning shara

We are told by demandred some of the Sharan Propehecies.

 

There version

1) Slays the Dragon

2) Can weave without Weaves.

 

Demandred obviously tweaked these throughout the years.

 

HOWEVER

 

Rand still fullfilled those prophecies. ^_^

[WhiskyJack]

Real question is this: How did light-siders mange to make a True Power Sa'angreal? None of them could channel it and I doubt you could make one without pouring TP in it. A 'chosen"  helped them?

[Kudlak]

Hi all, what do you think about this Egwene dream : She stands at fork in road. Gawyn rides up not seeing her. One road leads to violent death, the other, long life. Down one road they marry, the other, not. Gawyn smiles and chooses.

 

Do you think it was fulfilled and other dreams about them ??

 

Thx for your opinions :-)

[Zhalfirin]

Real question is this: How did light-siders mange to make a True Power Sa'angreal? None of them could channel it and I doubt you could make one without pouring TP in it. A 'chosen"  helped them?

 

You don't need to actively channel power to make an angreal. When Rand gave Elyane the Seed he said it consumed a persons ability to channel and transferred it to another object, leaving them weakened for a few months.

 

If you were one of the Forsaken of the time and got wind that the forces of light were going to make a powerful Sa'angreal then I would think inserting yourself as a worker in the project so you could try and steal it when finished would be a decent idea. (Un)fortunatly it lead to a flaw that allowed it to amplify the TP.

[Terez]

Hi all, what do you think about this Egwene dream : She stands at fork in road. Gawyn rides up not seeing her. One road leads to violent death, the other, long life. Down one road they marry, the other, not. Gawyn smiles and chooses.

 

Do you think it was fulfilled and other dreams about them ??

 

Thx for your opinions :-)

 

I think this one is pretty obvious. Gawyn marries her, and it leads to his death. If he hadn't married her, he would have lived a long life.

[mbuehner]

Does anyone have the exact quote from RJ on the fulfillment of prophecy? The wording could be important. IE- if he said all prophecies must be fulfilled unless the Dark wins, perhaps that only applies to Light prophecies... and the reverse might be true for Dark prophecies, which should then be expected to fail because the Light won. Just a thought.

[JSSheridan]

Yeah... I'm actually with you on that. Or if he was not THE enemy - loss of free will? - he was certainly AN enemy. A big one. I also disagree with Rand's assessment that his "perfect world" was AS BAD as any of the DO's alternatives. The loss of your sense of self is definitely not a good thing, but an end to human suffering cannot be compared to the nightmare futures the DO created,

 

Based on RJ's own values, I would guess that part of what makes people "good" is that they actively reject "evil," but you can't do that if said evil doesn't exist.

[Terez]

Does anyone have the exact quote from RJ on the fulfillment of prophecy? The wording could be important. IE- if he said all prophecies must be fulfilled unless the Dark wins, perhaps that only applies to Light prophecies... and the reverse might be true for Dark prophecies, which should then be expected to fail because the Light won. Just a thought.

 

RJ said all prophecies would be fulfilled unless the Wheel was broken. There are two exceptions: Dreams, which are only possibilities, and prophecies that were given after the Pattern began falling apart. Brandon slipped one of those in because RJ apparently didn't: Min's viewing of two dead men, one of which turned out not to be dead after all. Brandon verified that dark prophecies are just as legitimate as Light prophecies.

[Dollhouse]

 

 

I think Rand's realization that the Dark One was never the enemy - that it was really about free will and having a choice - means that the yet-unfulfilled prophecies didn't actually HAVE to take place anymore. The boat was one of the "casualties" of the ramifications of this. The prophecies didn't have to be inevitable.

 

I personally didn't understand what the deal was with that part...

 

I understand the whole logic behind free will and needing the DO around to provide it, but the "the DO was never the enemy" thing doesn't make a lot of sense to me.  He was pretty clearly the enemy

Yeah... I'm actually with you on that. Or if he was not THE enemy - loss of free will? - he was certainly AN enemy. A big one. I also disagree with Rand's assessment that his "perfect world" was AS BAD as any of the DO's alternatives. The loss of your sense of self is definitely not a good thing, but an end to human suffering cannot be compared to the nightmare futures the DO created,

I don't agree at all. Or are you saying you think Oblivion is a better alternative than eternal suffering?

[BFG]

I guess, first amongst Vermin turns out to be Logain - as he actually breaks the seals and it can't be Eg...

 

 

Additionally does anyone know of direct quotes from RJ regarding Min? I'm wondering if she could have mis-interpreted her viewing of Sarene; instead of getting swept off her feet by a love affair, maybe she foresaw the Compulsion. I know that Min thinks that when she knows she knows, but is she right?

 

Thanks

[mbuehner]

I don't agree at all. Or are you saying you think Oblivion is a better alternative than eternal suffering?

 

I assumed this was regarding the choice of being maimed and killed, or being married to Egwene?

[garryturk]

 

Real question is this: How did light-siders mange to make a True Power Sa'angreal? None of them could channel it and I doubt you could make one without pouring TP in it. A 'chosen"  helped them?

 

You don't need to actively channel power to make an angreal. When Rand gave Elyane the Seed he said it consumed a persons ability to channel and transferred it to another object, leaving them weakened for a few months.

 

If you were one of the Forsaken of the time and got wind that the forces of light were going to make a powerful Sa'angreal then I would think inserting yourself as a worker in the project so you could try and steal it when finished would be a decent idea. (Un)fortunatly it lead to a flaw that allowed it to amplify the TP.

 

OK, I think I can buy that.  I was having issues working out how the ability to amplify TP was a "manufacturing flaw".

[Terez]

Additionally does anyone know of direct quotes from RJ regarding Min? I'm wondering if she could have mis-interpreted her viewing of Sarene; instead of getting swept off her feet by a love affair, maybe she foresaw the Compulsion. I know that Min thinks that when she knows she knows, but is she right?

 

The words come with the viewing; that's in the books. I don't see any reason to believe it had anything to do with Compulsion.

[Aethoes]

The Tinkers finding the song prophecy should be fulfilled. I know that RJ said that they would never find it. However, Rand knows at least the Aiel song of growing and he knows the historical implications of the songs from his LTT memories. That with his Rhuidean memories means that he should have easily been able to connect the dots because he sees the Tinkers leave the Aiel in search of the song in his rhuidean memories. Rand knows that the song the tinkers search for is/are the growing songs.The only way I can see it not happening is somehow Rand knows that it's not the time for the songs to return yet and maybe that is what he is referring to in his Rand/Mat scene. 

 

This is something I had been hoping for as well. I thought that between the Tinkers, Ogier, Rand, and Gai'shine (sp?) that refuse to put off the white someone would have put that together. I figured it would be a way to serve and get the world back into shape after the LB since the world was obviously headed into a famine situation with the lack of recent crops.

[jwillis7]

 

The Tinkers finding the song prophecy should be fulfilled. I know that RJ said that they would never find it. However, Rand knows at least the Aiel song of growing and he knows the historical implications of the songs from his LTT memories. That with his Rhuidean memories means that he should have easily been able to connect the dots because he sees the Tinkers leave the Aiel in search of the song in his rhuidean memories. Rand knows that the song the tinkers search for is/are the growing songs.The only way I can see it not happening is somehow Rand knows that it's not the time for the songs to return yet and maybe that is what he is referring to in his Rand/Mat scene. 

 

This is something I had been hoping for as well. I thought that between the Tinkers, Ogier, Rand, and Gai'shine (sp?) that refuse to put off the white someone would have put that together. I figured it would be a way to serve and get the world back into shape after the LB since the world was obviously headed into a famine situation with the lack of recent crops.

there is no song, the tinkers left the Aiel tring to find a time that has past.  They have heard stories about a "song" and think if they find it everything will be fixed.  I dont remember when but i thought the Oigers sand the growing song to the tinkers and they said that it was not it.  That is because they are looking for something that does not exist.

[Atheose]

 

"The north shall he tie to the east, and the west shall be bound to the south."

Well, mystery. I don't think it was Seanchan and Rand making alliance. They pretty much all fought together. May refer to the four battlefields at the start or to all of them fighting as one.

He forces the Seanchan to only keep the lands they've conquered thusfar, which to me sounds like binding them to their current territory of Tarabon/Amadicia/Altara.

[Atheose]

 

I think Rand's realization that the Dark One was never the enemy - that it was really about free will and having a choice - means that the yet-unfulfilled prophecies didn't actually HAVE to take place anymore. The boat was one of the "casualties" of the ramifications of this. The prophecies didn't have to be inevitable.

 

I personally didn't understand what the deal was with that part...

 

I understand the whole logic behind free will and needing the DO around to provide it, but the "the DO was never the enemy" thing doesn't make a lot of sense to me.  He was pretty clearly the enemy

 

The entire series is about balance. Ying and Yang, the symbol of the Aes Sedai. Rand sees this clearly during his battle with the Dark One: without evil, how can there be relative good? 

 

The Dark One is a necessity. Removing him from the world just forces people to be good, which isn't really "good" if they're forced into it.

[Terez]

If sealing him away to where he has no influence on the world whatsoever doesn't force people to be good, then how can killing him force people to be good? The logic is dumb. But then, that applies to a lot of real world religions too...

[Atheose]

If sealing him away to where he has no influence on the world whatsoever doesn't force people to be good, then how can killing him force people to be good? The logic is dumb. But then, that applies to a lot of real world religions too...

I'm assuming that he's symbolic of the "bad" that exists in people as well. Like when discussing the 13x13 process, one of the Ashaman mentions that it essentially "flips" the good and the bad inside of you, turning you into a mirror image of yourself. The Dark One needs to exist (even if locked up where he can't rule), otherwise there would be no "darkness" inside of people, and everyone would be good by default. At least that's how I interpreted it. 

 

And very true regarding your last point. At least the WoT series has the excuse of being a work of fiction, whereas religions claim to be "truth".