Prophecy; New and Fulfilled. (Full Spoilers)

[madpoet]

Multipost

[dreadlord]

Yep, only need a literal boat if you want to sign this song the I'm on a Boat song, youtube it lol

 

Or an all-inclusive honeymoon cruise to Tremalking.

[Christina Gleason]

We were our own enemy.

 

Thank you for putting it so succinctly for me. I was deathly ill all day yesterday while reading, so I was a bit dazed and confused by the end, and putting it like THIS helps me make sense of it better.

[fionwe1987]

 

As for Prophesies that didn't get fulfilled... Three on a boat comes to mind. Parts of that Prophesy get fulfilled, but the rest does not.

 

Everyone keeps saying that the "Three On a Boat" prophecy wasn't fulfilled, but why are we fixated on it being a literal boat? Avi, Min and Elayne are "in the same boat".  They've all bonded Rand, they all love him, they're the only ones who know what's really happened to him, they're keeping it secret and trying to decide what to do about him.  This is a common metaphor; I don't think its a stretch to say "three on a boat" is referring to how they're the ONLY ones in this situation, it in together, they're "in the same boat".  

 

I don't have a problem with the metaphorical boat. My problem is that at any of the times this can have said to happen, the future was not teetering on the edge of a blade.

[MarkDiLillo]

Technically, the future very well could have been said to be teetering on the edge of a blade.  Nations are demolished and the world was essentially broken again (metaphorically speaking).  The future depends on everyones adherence to the Dragon's Peace.

[Axon]

 

 

There is a quote somewhere in the series I believe from Rand that says something to the effect of A Prophecy sets the requirements for a thing to happen but even if they are met it doesn't mean it will happen or in the way believed to happen.

The authors quite clearly stated all prophecies must be fulfilled. That they WILL happen, not always in the ways most obvious however.

 

The only exceptions are 1) Dreams and 2) prophecies given after the Pattern began falling apart. Pretty sure the Broken Wolf prophecy doesn't qualify; it was given to us in TOM but according to Moridin's words it's probably much older. I think that one generally doesn't make any sense, and I wish Brandon hadn't written it, since it was apparently a waste of time to discuss what it might mean.

 

This is precisely how I felt about the "shadow" prophecies at the end of TOM, and I was given endless crap for stating that opinion back in 2011.   What is the point of introducing set of totally contradictory prophecies in the penultimate book of a massive, 14 book series?  You're setting up one set of prophecies for failure (and yes, the wheel turns, blah blah blah).  No one needs to search for the "meaning" of the shadow prophecies or reach to show how they were fulfilled - they simply were not.   I guess it struck BS as a cool idea, but it really fell flat for me.  It was more effective at making the Shadow seem more intimidating than anything.  

[Terez]

You misunderstand. Shadow prophecies are every bit as legit as Light prophecies. The TOM one was just written badly. The TGH one had an interesting and unexpected fulfillment.

[WhiskyJack]

So we still don't know for sure who Broken Wolf is/was!

[KrisAnton]

The boat thing COULD be Rand's funeral pyre, it could have looked like a boat. It came from Aiel who were unfamiliar with the term. It also could have been a vessel in the sense that they are the only ones to know about Rand's transmogrification.

 

I think the Broken Wolf is the command of the armies by the Great Captains, not one individual leader. They were almost consumed by the Forsaken, death has known them in the sense of battles where men died and they learned experience. Their fall would have single handedly given the Shadow it's victory if it hadn't been for Mat.

 

Also, we are speaking of Shadow prophecy here, there could be many lies and presumptions based on a difference in perspective. I'm not into trusting them as much because it's the shadow and it could be nothing more than war time propaganda, even if ancient. Ishamael was nothing if not considerate of future plans to screw with the Light.

[Amandera]

 

As for Prophesies that didn't get fulfilled... Three on a boat comes to mind. Parts of that Prophesy get fulfilled, but the rest does not.

 

Everyone keeps saying that the "Three On a Boat" prophecy wasn't fulfilled, but why are we fixated on it being a literal boat? Avi, Min and Elayne are "in the same boat".  They've all bonded Rand, they all love him, they're the only ones who know what's really happened to him, they're keeping it secret and trying to decide what to do about him.  This is a common metaphor; I don't think its a stretch to say "three on a boat" is referring to how they're the ONLY ones in this situation, it in together, they're "in the same boat".  

 

I don't have a problem with the metaphorical boat. My problem is that at any of the times this can have said to happen, the future was not teetering on the edge of a blade.

Hm.

 

"The lion sword, the dedicated spear, she who sees beyond. Three on the boat, and he who is dead yet lives. The great battle done, but the world not done with battle. The land divided by the return, and the guardians balance the servants. The future teeters on the edge of a blade."

 

The sentences don't have to be chronological you know. The first two is obviously Rand's death. "The great battle done, but the world not done with battle" could be just Battle of Merrilor not Tarmon Gai'don. Fourth sentence is Seanchan and Asha'man/Aes Sedai. And the last is Rand's fight with the Dark One. In which the future really teeters on the edge of a blade.

[TristanWebb]

Three on a boat isn't fufilled, but the reason it was included has been. It was there to tell us that Rand and the harem would survive, and they did. Rand is fairly certain that some of them would follow him at least, and the prophecy implies all of them will for a holiday if not forever.

[skalors3]

Three on a boat is a little different than 3 in the same boat ;) I just think some of the details got lost. It's sad but understandable.

Again the mystical significance of a boat is entering into a new age or saying goodbye to your past. I think the meaning is fairly clear. People just expected a literal boat. I think RJ was as descriptive as he was going to be on this topic.

 

I would agree with Mark too on the Fate of the world teetering on a blade. This one again is pretty clear to me.

 

I think people expected more. RJ is laughing somewhere LOL.

[Rufae]

Yea, and the Broken Wolf, the one whom Death has known, shall fall and be consumed by the Midnight Towers. And his destruction shall bring fear and sorrow to the hearts of men, and shall shake their very will itself."

 

Could not this refer to Demandred? Would not surprise me if Wyld means "wolf" in Sharan language. He is killed by Lan who is King of Malkier which is known for its  7 darkened towers. And Demandred's death destroyed the will of the men/women of the Sharans and shook their will to fight. Finally, he has known Death (notice the capital letters). Moridin means "Death" in the Old Tongue.

[Christina Gleason]

No no no. I don't believe the Shadow prophecies were ever meant to be "as legit" as the prophecies for the Light. The DO is the Father of Lies.

Also...Rand never knelt before the Crystal Throne, right? That was part of the prophecies over in Seanchan, and it didn't happen. Not all prophecies were created equally.

 

As for author statements that all prophecies "must" be fulfilled, I call BS. 

 

Rand's reality duel with the DO changed things. A victory of choice, of free will, over inevitability. I've had people argue with me over at Theoryland over this, but I don't think any of the yet-unfulfilled prophecies have to/will be fulfilled anymore. Rand altered the fabric of reality, the Pattern itself. (The whole thing with the pipe is a sign of that.) The prophecies no longer hold. I guess you can call this my new theory.

[Axon]

No no no. I don't believe the Shadow prophecies were ever meant to be "as legit" as the prophecies for the Light. The DO is the Father of Lies.

Also...Rand never knelt before the Crystal Throne, right? That was part of the prophecies over in Seanchan, and it didn't happen. Not all prophecies were created equally.

 

Well no, Rand did kneel before the Crystal Throne as a showing of respect (and, in my opinion, a device of manipulation).

 

As to the shadow prophecies from TOM...ugh.  In my opinion, they are the worst part of any of the foretelling in the entire series.   I suppose an argument could be made that this was nothing more than a standard turning of the Wheel of Time, and thus, the prophecies of the shadow may still come to pass. But again, how can you have two set of prophecies that involve the same events but are in direct contradiction?  I'm not taking crazy pills here, people.  

[Suttree]

Also...Rand never knelt before the Crystal Throne, right? That was part of the prophecies over in Seanchan, and it didn't happen. Not all prophecies were created equally.

 

That was not a true prophecy. Ishy tampered with the Seanchan version of the KC. Kneeling before the CT the was not in the pre-Luthair Seanchan version nor was it in the main continent KC.

[toss the dice]

What if the broken wolf and blacksmiths pride mean the exact same thing, but in a different way than weve been thinking. Perrins pride was always in the fact that he could seperate man from wolf in the wolf dream, and never actually fully lose control. But he does just that in the last book, he lets himself go completely. Also his fall and consumption by the midnight towers (in my opinion) refers to him being compelled by Lanfear. It never actually says that he dies, only that he falls and is consumed. Which he does and then is. We can assume all we want that falling refers to death, but I dont think it does. He almost died a few days before when fighting slayer, so death has known him, but not taken him. Also, we have Egwenes vision that shows of the 13 dark towers where several crumble and several grow taller and stronger, which we know refers to the Chosen. So this also seems to point more toward perrin falling to a member of the forsaken, and the only time I can think of that this happens is when he is compelled by Lanfear

[skalors3]

I am not sure where this belongs, but I found the correlation between the false realities being woven and the alternate worlds shown to us in TGH to be wonderful. More to the point, it seemed that those worlds were actual results of this battle between the DO and Rand. They were the mirrors woven in this never ending battle. The almost worlds created just outside of the pattern by he lights champion and the DO.

[egwene1225]

I was actually pretty surprised how much Moiraine leaned on the prophecies during the FoM debate. Only about a hundred pages past that so I'm being careful with what I read here but shouldn't everyone else have been up on that? Seemed somewhat heavy handed how she storms in and points it all out.

 

In the Guide it says that most people ARE unfamiliar with the Prophecies, that they were kept as secret as possible (though some leaked over the years) so that false dragons would be able to manipulate ALL of them, so at least the scholars /AS would know when the real one came

[Amandera]

 

Yea, and the Broken Wolf, the one whom Death has known, shall fall and be consumed by the Midnight Towers. And his destruction shall bring fear and sorrow to the hearts of men, and shall shake their very will itself."

 

Could not this refer to Demandred? Would not surprise me if Wyld means "wolf" in Sharan language. He is killed by Lan who is King of Malkier which is known for its  7 darkened towers. And Demandred's death destroyed the will of the men/women of the Sharans and shook their will to fight. Finally, he has known Death (notice the capital letters). Moridin means "Death" in the Old Tongue.

I argued this in this topic. In hindsight it's the only thing that makes sense. I mean it doesn't make perfect sense but more than the alternative.

 

No no no. I don't believe the Shadow prophecies were ever meant to be "as legit" as the prophecies for the Light. The DO is the Father of Lies.

Also...Rand never knelt before the Crystal Throne, right? That was part of the prophecies over in Seanchan, and it didn't happen. Not all prophecies were created equally.

 

As for author statements that all prophecies "must" be fulfilled, I call BS. 

 

Rand's reality duel with the DO changed things. A victory of choice, of free will, over inevitability. I've had people argue with me over at Theoryland over this, but I don't think any of the yet-unfulfilled prophecies have to/will be fulfilled anymore. Rand altered the fabric of reality, the Pattern itself. (The whole thing with the pipe is a sign of that.) The prophecies no longer hold. I guess you can call this my new theory.

Dark prophecies are legit. Period. There is no room for belief, speculation. It came from the mouth of RJ. The Dark One does not Foretell prophecies, people with the ability of Foretelling do and Elan compiles them.

 

And yeah, kneeling to the Crystal Throne is a false prophecy added by Ishamael. Very smart way to create tension between the Dragon Reborn and the Empire. Instead of arguing with Tuon about it, Rand knelt to her without showing any sort of subservience to convince her.

 

Rand's reality duel as you call it did not change a single thing. Those were alternative paths that the Wheel of Time could weave the Pattern. Rand cannot do that, he is not the Wheel. Even the DO cannot do it unless he breaks the Wheel. Pipe thing is a mystery though. We'll see if we ever get an answer for it.

 

The prophecies made before CoT still hold. At least they should. If they do not, it's a mistake.

[Viperswhip]

I very much imagine it was like the bible back in the early days, only nobles and scholars could even really read. Randland had a way higher literacy rate, but it doesn't mean the prophecy of the dragon was floating around publicly. It would probably be viewed something like the satanic bible.

 

Still, everyone in that tent, except maybe Reodren should have had some passing familiarity with them.

[CTGryffindor]

The three-women-in-a-boat prophecy may yet be fulfilled. Everything remains balanced, exactly as foretold, and the man who is dead yet lives. Rand's hope of irrelevance and peace is only a hope. After all, the only vision of the future, Avi's, has already been changed.

[herid]

Rand kneeling to the Crystal throne has obviously been fulfilled when Rand knelt to Tuon in chapter 17. It was never proved conclusively that this was a false prophecy. Perhaps it was but perhaps not. I rather think it wasn't. It's not really important as it was fulfilled either way. The three on a boat one was a dream  and not a prophecy. Those need not be fulfilled and some weren't. I find the metaphorical explanations such as the ones offered earlier completely unacceptable so I prefer to think of this as an unfulfilled dream even though two different  dreamwalkers had it.

 

The Dark prophecies are more confusing. In the first one Lanfear's new lover is Perrin but he didn't die so I don't understand how that is supposed to have worked. The second one is also unclear. I agree with the suggestions above that the Broken Wolf is Demandred. He was  the only person whose death can be said to have brought fear and sorrow to the hearts of men, and shaken their very will itself. His death seriously shook the Sharans. none of the others even remotely fit. Rand's death occurred much later so he is out for chronological reasons. I guess we have to accept that the Midnight Towers means the seven Towers of Malkier although I don't think they've ever been described that way either in the books or in interviews. I really hate that part for that reason.

 

I hate the "fulfillment" of Nicola's foretelling too because the world post the LB is not teetering on an edge of a blade.

[MrBlack]

I'm somewhat surprised that the "three on a boat" Foretelling is being taken quite so literally. 

[Terez]

Rand kneeling to the Crystal throne has obviously been fulfilled when Rand knelt to Tuon in chapter 17. It was never proved conclusively that this was a false prophecy. Perhaps it was but perhaps not. I rather think it wasn't. It's not really important as it was fulfilled either way. The three on a boat one was a dream  and not a prophecy. Those need not be fulfilled and some weren't. I find the metaphorical explanations such as the ones offered earlier completely unacceptable so I prefer to think of this as an unfulfilled dream even though two different  dreamwalkers had it.

 

It was a Foretelling by Nicola, which is absolute. It just happened to be backed up by two different dreamers.