Prologue Through to the End of the Epilogue--Full Book Discussion.

[MarkDiLillo]

Ultimately the fanbase will not be satisfied until BS or team jordan clarify Nakomi's role and origins which from what im hearing not very likely

 

The Nakomi = Verin theory leaves very little doubt about who it is.  Someone looked up the name somewhere and it has something to do with teaching dreaming to other people, etc.  Verin gave Egwene the stone ring dream ter'angreal.  It's basically answered that Nakomi was Verin IMO.

[MrBlack]

Nakomi as the Creator's avatar is dumb because it's deus ex machina, and on top of that it undermines the struggles of the mortals to save the world. Explanation that makes the most sense = Verin as a returned Hero. She was Aiel in a past life, apparently.

God may show up, but that doesn't make her appearance a deus ex machina.  Nakomi didn't solve any of the problems facing the Light, but at best only coaxed Aviendha towards considering a problem that would face her people down the road.  It's unclear whether she did anything at all to Rand besides give him someone to talk to after defeating the Dark One.

 

There's certainly precedent for such a being in the books.  After all, we did have a Dark One avatar in the form of Shaidar Haran.

[CTGryffindor]

Nakomi as the Creator's avatar is dumb because it's deus ex machina, and on top of that it undermines the struggles of the mortals to save the world. Explanation that makes the most sense = Verin as a returned Hero. She was Aiel in a past life, apparently.

First, it is not deus ex machina. Deus ex machina is a plot device whereby something that could not be solved by the previously explained rules, characters, and events is abruptly resolved through the intervention of heretofor unknown character or power. Nakomi-Creator is not invented to solve a seemingly impossible problem or conundrum in the plot. At the end of A Memory of Light, she does basically nothing but serve as a sounding board for Rand to expound a worldview too. Meanwhile, in Towers of Midnight, she helps INTRODUCE a problem that Avi will find in the Crystal Columns then solve on her own. No deus ex machina in either appearance.

 

Second, even if it was deus ex machina and therefore dumb in your opinion, that isn't an argument against it as the best interpretation. It does actually reinforce, however, my opinion that those who argue against Nakomi-Creator are doing so because they are unsatisfied with the storyline and thus seek to invent something else out of whole cloth like the Nakomi-Verin interpretation.

 

On a final note, let's assume Verin was a former Aiel AND a Hero of the Horn. Neither is grounded in canon. But let's assume. Where in the series is it indicated that a Hero of the Horn could intervene to ensure that descendents of her people followed the right path? Hawkwing lived for a thousand or more years in the Dream World without stepping in to right the wrongs of the Seanchan. Did he care less about his people than Verin? Or might the Heros not have the foresight or ability that you seek to ascribe to them? They aren't the Creator....

[Callandora]

 

Nakomi as the Creator's avatar is dumb because it's deus ex machina, and on top of that it undermines the struggles of the mortals to save the world. Explanation that makes the most sense = Verin as a returned Hero. She was Aiel in a past life, apparently.

First, it is not deus ex machina. Deus ex machina is a plot device whereby something that could not be solved by the previously explained rules, characters and events is abruptly resolved through the intervention of heretofor unknown character or power. Nakomi-Creator never is not invented to solve a seemingly impossible problem or conundrum. At the end of A Memory of Light, she does basically nothing but serve as a sounding board for Rand to expound a worldview too. Meanwhile, it Towers of Midnight, she helps INTRODUCE a problem that Avi will find in the Crystal Columns then solves on her own. No deus ex machina in either appearance.

 

Second, even if it was deus ex machina and therefore dumb in your opinion, that isn't an argument against it as the best interpretation. It actually reinforces my opinion that those who argue against Nakomi-Creator are doing so because they are unsatisfied with the storyline and, therefore, seek to invent something else out of whole cloth like the Nakomi-Verin interpretation.

 

On a final note, let's assume Verin was a former Aiel AND a Hero of the Horn. Neither is grounded in canon. But let's assume. Where in the series is it indicated that a Hero of the Horn could intervene to ensure that descendents of her people followed the right path? Hawkwing lived for a thousand or more years in the Dream World without stepping in to right the wrongs of the Seanchan. Did he care less about his people than Verin? Or might the Heros not have the foresight or ability that you seek to ascribe to them? They aren't the Creator....

+100

[Hadilmir]

God may show up, but that doesn't make her appearance a deus ex machina.  Nakomi didn't solve any of the problems facing the Light, but at best only coaxed Aviendha towards considering a problem that would face her people down the road.  It's unclear whether she did anything at all to Rand besides give him someone to talk to after defeating the Dark One.

 

There's certainly precedent for such a being in the books.  After all, we did have a Dark One avatar in the form of Shaidar Haran.

The problem with your logic is that you are equating the Creator and the Dark One. We know nothing about the Creator beyond his creating of the Pattern. We do know however that the Dark One is the Shadow in every man's mind from Lanfear's words and from the future where Rand destroyed him. So the Dark One isn't a "God" figure, merely a facet of humanity which is able to touch the fraying Pattern.

 

+1 to Verin=Nakomi

[lilltempest]

 

My take on it was that Rand did to them (and Egwene) what Egwene had done to the Hall so many times - he got them to agree to something that sounded reasonable to them without them really thinking it through because there was so much else going on. I don't doubt that they'll try to stick their noses in, but now nations can tell the Aiel to make the AS butt out. No doubt Cadsuane understands what Rand did, but she may see, at this point, that he was right to get strip some of the Tower's power and prestiege until they can earn the place they had before.

 

[...]

 

Egwene likely realized what the agreement meant, but she thought that, because the Wise Ones were her friends, she could manipulate them into letting the WT keep power and, possibly, doing exactly what you suggest. I think that was part of the reason that the clan chiefs had to be included as well - they wouldn't be as influenced by Egwene. Either way, it worked out for the best.

 

I just skimmed over this section this morning before work, Faile and Perrin's conversation at the conclusion of the section, agrees with your first point. 

 

Not sure what Egwene realized or not, she stops being a focal point of the section once Moiraine's intervention happens until it comes time to sign the document.

 

A couple little things I noticed in that section... 

 

- Egwene isn't happy that Cadsuane is there or that Rand gives her a nod and doesn't seem to question her presence.

- I don't think any other Aes Sedai speak until after Moiraine's intervention.  And, the two that do after, make rather important contributions to building a consensus.

 

My take on the whole thing is that in the white tower might have some diffliculty in adapting to the new age because they no longer have a monopoly on the one power.

I definitely think they'll have difficulty adapating to the new age. It isn't just that they don't have a monopoly on the One Power anymore (and the fact that Logain has already started to bring the Asha'man to a place where people revere and love them, when the Aes Sedai have ridden the wave of fear and mystery to control people), it's that the purpose they served no longer exists. The Amyrlin was supposedly Watcher of the Seals (despite not having them or knowing where they were) and there are no seals anymore.  The Aes Sedai used the people's fear of male channelers to trounce around and do as they pleased ("If it wasn't for us, you'd all be dead!!") but male channelers will no longer be feared. The madness they suffered from the taint can be Healed, thanks to Nynaeve, and they have already begun proving themselves. So where does that leave the WT? They supposedly know everything, but don't share their books with anyone, so no one will miss that. They negotiate treaties and the like - the Aiel will handle that and the Aiel truly have no personal interests and will be fair, unlike the AS (who always put the Tower's interests first). Unless they start actually serving people, and working as equals with the Asha'man and other channelers, they will end up even more isolationists than they are now. With Cadsuane at the helm, I don't see that happening. She'll likely tell them all to get the hell out of the Tower and make themselves useful so they can grow the hell up. She doesn't think much of most of them, lol.

[MrBlack]

 

God may show up, but that doesn't make her appearance a deus ex machina.  Nakomi didn't solve any of the problems facing the Light, but at best only coaxed Aviendha towards considering a problem that would face her people down the road.  It's unclear whether she did anything at all to Rand besides give him someone to talk to after defeating the Dark One.

 

There's certainly precedent for such a being in the books.  After all, we did have a Dark One avatar in the form of Shaidar Haran.

The problem with your logic is that you are equating the Creator and the Dark One. We know nothing about the Creator beyond his creating of the Pattern. We do know however that the Dark One is the Shadow in every man's mind from Lanfear's words and from the future where Rand destroyed him. So the Dark One isn't a "God" figure, merely a facet of humanity which is able to touch the fraying Pattern.

 

+1 to Verin=Nakomi

Except for the fact that the Dark One is the Creator's anti-thesis, as has been stated multiple times in the book and by the author.  They are equal and opposing forces.

[Christina Gleason]

The mythological basis for Nakomi does not automatically make her Verin, dream ter'angreal or not. Bair says that Nakomi is an ancient name. If Verin were some kind of Hero - Nakomi Reborn, or what have you - the characters would know the name Nakomi as one of the Heroes of the Horn. She also could not have appeared to Aviendha before the horn was blown, even if the timing of her death was right. 

 

If we're going to focus on providing entrance to T'A'R to come up with an identity for Nakomi, we should probably be looking further back. Who made the dream ter'angreal? Or further back than that... who taught the first Wise Ones how to Walk the Dream? 

 

Ancient.

[MrBlack]

The mythological basis for Nakomi does not automatically make her Verin, dream ter'angreal or not. Bair says that Nakomi is an ancient name. If Verin were some kind of Hero - Nakomi Reborn, or what have you - the characters would know the name Nakomi as one of the Heroes of the Horn. She also could not have appeared to Aviendha before the horn was blown, even if the timing of her death was right. 

 

If we're going to focus on providing entrance to T'A'R to come up with an identity for Nakomi, we should probably be looking further back. Who made the dream ter'angreal? Or further back than that... who taught the first Wise Ones how to Walk the Dream? 

 

Ancient.

Well, if Verin is Nakomi and a Hero of the Horn, she would be an ancient figure, since one would assume that the "Nakomi" identity would be from a far previous age.  I don't buy the theory myself, but I can't dismiss it on that basis. 

[CTGryffindor]

Callandora. I think we get forshadowing both in earlier books and in this one.We know that Rand is a Hero of the Horn in mortal form and as such doesn't get summoned by the horn. RJ has also said Birgitte would not appear while she was alive if the horn was blown. Lastly we have Jain show up when the horn is blow further establishing the pattern. (I know some people think Jain got added, but I have the feeling he's always been a hero, just happened to be spun out at the time of the story, same as Rand)Combine that with the characters being very similar. Verin's seeming interest and understanding of T'A'R despite supposedly having no talent there (latent or subconscious understanding maybe) I think there's hints there to see.

I agree with almost all of your logic, as applied to the rules the WOT set up for the Horn of Valere and how it would affect living heros. But I'm not sure that I get where you are going with it because Verin was dead when Olver blew the horn.

 

Also, think about this: Jain did not appear in Falme when the Horn was blown, like you suggested, because he was living at the time. But when he did appear at its call at Merrilor, after his death, he showed up wearing the appearance of his last reincarnation. Can't we assume Verin would have too if she was a Hero? And since we know that Mat saw all of the Heros when called to Merillin (with the possible exception of Jain and Birgitte who ran off for side duties), isn't the absence of Verin telling?

[KakitaOCU]

The Verin=Nakomi has as much validity and support as the Nakomi=Creator, plus has the benefit of fitting the story RJ told better. Not to mention Nakomia and Verin act alike almost exactly.

 

Verin aside, the Nakomi=HotH has a LOT more validity than Nakomi=Creator.

 

This isn't a case of being unsatisfied with the ending. There's more support for our side than yours if just because half of our arguement is pretty much flat out obvious.

 

As for "Who says heroes can intervene to save their people". There's a rule against involving themselves when they're in the Dream. But you know, Birgitte already kind of points out that you can ignore that rule if you feel like it. More over, we've seen now potentially two female heroes and a boat load of males. The males seems to follow the rules without issue (See Galad arguing with Birgitte). The Female we've seen seems to feel the rules are worth breaking when the prize for doing so is worth it. So again, precident is set.

 

But again, let's look at the Creator vs Hero theory, we'll leave Verin out for the time being.

 

Support for the Hero. Nakomi is in TAR with Aviendha, appears in the flesh after the horn is blown. BS has confirmed she is greatly skilled in TAR.

 

Support for the Creator. She's an unidentified good guy.

 

Detraction from the Hero. She wasn't present in TGH (though this is answered with the Verin angle).

 

Detraction from the Creator. Multiple viewpoints both from within the series and from RJ pretty much state right out that the Creator does not take part in anything and is apart from this all.

[Callandora]

Hasn't it occurred to anyone that since the DO and the creator balance each other out, and DO had an avatar hence creator avatar is a far reach?saidin to balance saidar-Aes Sedai to balance Ashaman-Shaidar fade avatar to balance nakomi creator avatar. The Wheel of Time is full of equal and balancing forces

[CTGryffindor]

This isn't a case of being unsatisfied with the ending.

As always, disagreements are not motivated by a single cause. I tried to identify a single factor that I think is leading some to reach a conclusion I think is wrong, a factor that is wrong to rely upon regardless of whether I am right I might add. But I'm not stupid enough to think everyone disagrees with me for the same reason, and I hope I did not imply otherwise.

 

[L]et's look at the Creator vs Hero theory, we'll leave Verin out for the time being.

We might as well because there's no more support for Verin than any other Hero. :)

 

 

Detraction from the Creator. Multiple viewpoints both from within the series and from RJ pretty much state right out that the Creator does not take part in anything and is apart from this all.

I think the fact that series shows that the Creator is willing to chat with Rand supports Nakomi-Creator.

[Hadilmir]

 

 

God may show up, but that doesn't make her appearance a deus ex machina.  Nakomi didn't solve any of the problems facing the Light, but at best only coaxed Aviendha towards considering a problem that would face her people down the road.  It's unclear whether she did anything at all to Rand besides give him someone to talk to after defeating the Dark One.

 

There's certainly precedent for such a being in the books.  After all, we did have a Dark One avatar in the form of Shaidar Haran.

The problem with your logic is that you are equating the Creator and the Dark One. We know nothing about the Creator beyond his creating of the Pattern. We do know however that the Dark One is the Shadow in every man's mind from Lanfear's words and from the future where Rand destroyed him. So the Dark One isn't a "God" figure, merely a facet of humanity which is able to touch the fraying Pattern.

 

+1 to Verin=Nakomi

Except for the fact that the Dark One is the Creator's anti-thesis, as has been stated multiple times in the book and by the author.  They are equal and opposing forces.

Honestly I'm not sure what to think. However I get the feeling this battle wasn't between Creation vs Destruction; it was between Order vs Chaos or Life vs Death. There is fundamentally one moment of Creation and one moment of Destruction, everything between is the Pattern or life. In this way the Creator and Dark One are equals, but the Dark One never works against Creation, he works against the Pattern, against life.

 

In simpler terms, the Creator manifested order by creating the Pattern. The Dark One manifests chaos by trying to destroy it. It follows that the Dark One works against the Pattern, not the Creator.

 

If this is the correct way to look at it, then there is nothing to say Nakomi cannot be an avatar of the Creator, especially given her role. But I still prefer the Verin=Nakomi idea because it better embodies the Pattern working towards its own continuation. Life works for its own survival.

[Suttree]

There is certainly as much if not more forshadowing and evidence for Nakomi=Verin than Nakomi=Creator.

[Callandora]

There is certainly as much if not more forshadowing and evidence for Nakomi=Verin than Nakomi=Creator.

Considering how verin handled the letters god help the pattern

[Viperswhip]

Well, heroes are not always noble apparently, that was a bit of a black ajah move. However, if she knew TAR, even subconsciously, then giving the notes to Egwene may well have been the wrong move.

 

TAR is not limited in any way, Perrin shows that. If Egwene got the notes, she may have subconsciously been limited by whatever constraints were disclose therein, even though they were wrong.

[CTGryffindor]

What supports the idea that Aviendha could have unwittingly entered the Dream World and exited it without any knowledge of the same when meeting Nakomi, unless you assume Nakomi is Nakomi-Creator? Surely no one believes that Nakomi-Verin could have, or did, pull Avhiendha into a dream shard, right? There is no indication that the Heroes have such power over the living, and Avhiendha is not a dreamwalker. Moreover, even non-dreamwalkers who have used terangreal to enter the Dream consciously use it to exit. So what's the explanation?

[Suttree]

What supports the idea that Aviendha could have unwittingly entered the Dream World and exited it without any knowledge of the same when meeting Nakomi, unless you assume Nakomi is Nakomi-Creator? Surely no one believes that Nakomi-Verin could have, or did, pull Avhiendha into a dream shard, right?

Nakomi could have entered Avi's dream easily amongst other options. Not sure what the hang up is?

[dreadlord]

What supports the idea that Aviendha could have unwittingly entered the Dream World and exited it without any knowledge of the same when meeting Nakomi, unless you assume Nakomi is Nakomi-Creator? Surely no one believes that Nakomi-Verin could have, or did, pull Avhiendha into a dream shard, right? There is no indication that the Heroes have such power over the living, and Avhiendha is not a dreamwalker. Moreover, even non-dreamwalkers who have used terangreal to enter the Dream consciously use it to exit. So what's the explanation?

 

She doesn't have to enter the dream world, she just has to be asleep, with Nakomi being able to enter Aviendha's dream with some measure of control over it.

 

We have lots of evidence of that happening.

[CTGryffindor]

 

 

Nakomi as the Creator's avatar is dumb because it's deus ex machina, and on top of that it undermines the struggles of the mortals to save the world. Explanation that makes the most sense = Verin as a returned Hero. She was Aiel in a past life, apparently.

How would Nakomi's communication with Avi and helping Rand after he seals the DO "undermines the struggles of the mortals to save the world" Remember she meets Rand AFTER he seals the bore. Can't say that she is a creator's avatar interfering or helping Rand with the fight cause that fight was over

Good point. Indeed, the fact that Nakomi did not "help" supports the Nakomi-Creator theory because the Creator refuses to interfere with the fight against the Dark One. It doesn't undermine the Nakomi-Verin theory, but it does undermine the notion that some powerful Jenn was out there and yet for some unfathomable reason stayed her hand and pretty much refused to help in the fight (yes, a Jenn would not actually fight, but such a figure could have helped in other ways).

[CTGryffindor]

 

 

What supports the idea that Aviendha could have unwittingly entered the Dream World and exited it without any knowledge of the same when meeting Nakomi, unless you assume Nakomi is Nakomi-Creator? Surely no one believes that Nakomi-Verin could have, or did, pull Avhiendha into a dream shard, right? There is no indication that the Heroes have such power over the living, and Avhiendha is not a dreamwalker. Moreover, even non-dreamwalkers who have used terangreal to enter the Dream consciously use it to exit. So what's the explanation?

She doesn't have to enter the dream world, she just has to be asleep, with Nakomi being able to enter Aviendha's dream with some measure of control over it.

 

We have lots of evidence of that happening.

A much more plausible theory, I will admit, but do we have evidence a dead hero could do it?

[jwsel]

Hopefully, it's okay for a newbie (well, a long-time lurker) to raise a different subject, but I was thinking back on the threads that predicted what would happen in AMOL. A lot of posters predicted Lan would die, which triggered debate about whether he would then reappear as a HOH. As an aside, I would this book settles any debate about Lan's credentials to be bound to the Horn, but I now think it is odd that Egwene did not appear. Shouldn't her actions have in destroying M'Hael and the Sharan channelers have raised her to the level of a HOH? On top of that, she stopped the Pattern from unraveling and her sacrifice also gave Rand what he needed to be able to defeat the DO. So should Egwene have been a HOH?

[Callandora]

Hopefully, it's okay for a newbie (well, a long-time lurker) to raise a different subject, but I was thinking back on the threads that predicted what would happen in AMOL. A lot of posters predicted Lan would die, which triggered debate about whether he would then reappear as a HOH. As an aside, I would this book settles any debate about Lan's credentials to be bound to the Horn, but I now think it is odd that Egwene did not appear. Shouldn't her actions have in destroying M'Hael and the Sharan channelers have raised her to the level of a HOH? On top of that, she stopped the Pattern from unraveling and her sacrifice also gave Rand what he needed to be able to defeat the DO. So should Egwene have been a HOH?

Doing heroic acts is not a guaranteed of in inclusion as a  hero anymore then being a sometimes bad person would disqualify you from the same

[CTGryffindor]

One last point on a Hero-of-the-Horn theory: we know for a fact from canon that one Hero doesn't know what became of Rand at the end. Birgitte explicitly asks Elayne if she knows anything about the Dragon as a result of Elayne's seemingly indifferent reaction to Rand's death. I would venture that Nakomi is in the know of the body swap, as she sees Rand or Moridin carrying the other's body out of the Cave and helpfully coaxed him along with whatever he is doing. Is it reasonable to think that only Verin As Hero would be in the know and the other Heroes ignorant of Rand's fate?