Prologue Through to the End of the Epilogue--Full Book Discussion.

[MarkDiLillo]

So been thinking on this and I think it is more likely that Rand fills that role and at the end realized he was a sort of hybrid Creator version of SH. SH was said to be a "shadowy avatar" without the full powers of the DO after all. Rand seems to be something more than human(fully embraced Light Champion/Super Hero of the Horn) now and fully understand the metaphysics of the world. Will be interesting to see if that knowledge fades over time a la Birgitte.

 

Except Moridin was the opposite of Rand and was the Champion of the Shadow.  Moridin and Rand were meant to be counterparts.

[Suttree]

 

 

So been thinking on this and I think it is more likely that Rand fills that role and at the end realized he was a sort of hybrid Creator version of SH. SH was said to be a "shadowy avatar" without the full powers of the DO after all. Rand seems to be something more than human(fully embraced Light Champion/Super Hero of the Horn) now and fully understand the metaphysics of the world. Will be interesting to see if that knowledge fades over time a la Birgitte.

 

Except Moridin was the opposite of Rand and was the Champion of the Shadow.  Moridin and Rand were meant to be counterparts.

Well yeah of course but Rand obviously moved beyond that. If there is something of a creator projection I find it far more likely it would be him in his understanding/pattern manipulation than Nakomi. Especially given all we know of Nakomi's real world mytholigical history.

[MarkDiLillo]

Ya I dont particularly think that Nakomi is supposed to be the creator either.  It's a tempting idea, and it reads that way in the Epilogue...but it doesn't feel like that's the answer.  Brandon said in the Q&A that there is a hint in aMoL between the end of Chapter 37 and the Epilogue.  Has anyone found the hint yet?  Judging by his comments that he doesn't know if RJ would want him to talk about it, I have a hard time believing that the hint will lead us anywhere - if one does exist.  Otherwise, he would have just said to look for the hint and figure it out.

[Callandora]

I am also thinking that there has to be a good reason why RJ were he alive today would be reluctant to reveal Nakomi's true origin. Could it be that the revelation could throw the fanbase into rebellion?

[Amandera]

Ya I dont particularly think that Nakomi is supposed to be the creator either.  It's a tempting idea, and it reads that way in the Epilogue...but it doesn't feel like that's the answer.  Brandon said in the Q&A that there is a hint in aMoL between the end of Chapter 37 and the Epilogue.  Has anyone found the hint yet?  Judging by his comments that he doesn't know if RJ would want him to talk about it, I have a hard time believing that the hint will lead us anywhere - if one does exist.  Otherwise, he would have just said to look for the hint and figure it out.

I think there is no hint and he's just referring to the white haired woman with Aiel clothing.

[skalors3]

I've always like Verin=Nakomi best. Think the implication could be she was Aiel in a past life works for her knowledge? Also provided the below material in another thread on the mythological history for the name.

 

Dom

 

 

Much more specific: Nakomi is the Moon Goddess who taught the shamans about the Dream and how to enter it, and gave men Dreamcatchers (a charm to protect sleeping people from nightmares).

I think the fact that Nakomi comes from deep within Rands notes squashes the Verin theory. If Verin was Nakomi, it would not have been buried.

[Callandora]

Is luckers's NDA agreement now moot since AMOL is out? I would love to hear his take on Nakomi. I remember him saying that Nakomi was "theory fodder" which we now know was not accurate since she came from RJ

[lilltempest]

 

I've always like Verin=Nakomi best. Think the implication could be she was Aiel in a past life works for her knowledge? Also provided the below material in another thread on the mythological history for the name.

 

Dom

Much more specific: Nakomi is the Moon Goddess who taught the shamans about the Dream and how to enter it, and gave men Dreamcatchers (a charm to protect sleeping people from nightmares).

 

This. I could buy Nakomi being Ilyena better than I could buy her as the Creator's avatar. Rand is as close as we get to that, I believe, especially given his Pattern manipulation now.

[Suttree]

Did anyone else find it odd that the AS signed that treaty essentially ending their role as being above all nations for the last 3,000 years. That is a huge blow to their prestige and we got nothing whatsoever in any of their povs on the topic. Pretty unrealistic and it would have been a simple fix. As is it seemed as if they didn't even realize what happend and just accepted it in a snap. Just really wish more time was spent on character reactions to these types of things. Could have been a huge set up for returning to "servants of all" if done in the correct way. Internal thoughts and commentary being almost non-existent in this last few books really take away from the depth.

[Viperswhip]

The White Tower signing makes no difference. They still have the same function. They will still bully rulers into staying in shape. The Treaty is just the yellow line on road, it gives you a parameter, but we saw that Tuon was already considering the breaking of the treaty. The Aes Sedai will stamp that shit down.

 

Before the treaty, they tried to guide rulers however they could, but if two nations wanted to go at it, there would be war, now the Aes Sedai can sick the Aiel on them as a last resort.

[MarkDiLillo]

I felt the whole treaty thing was really botched.  I'm not sure if RJ invented the details of it or not, but it felt distinctively Brandonesque.  Specifically, the part about the Aiel being peacekeepers of the whole thing.  That felt like a really unsatisfying role for the Aiel.  If it was RJ's invention then I still lay the same criticism against him - though maybe he couldve written the whole event in a way that convinced me better that it would have been believable.

[skalors3]

Did anyone else find it odd that the AS signed that treaty essentially ending their role as being above all nations for the last 3,000 years. That is a huge blow to their prestige and we got nothing whatsoever in any of their povs on the topic. Pretty unrealistic and it would have been a simple fix. As is it seemed as if they didn't even realize what happend and just accepted it in a snap. Just really wish more time was spent on character reactions to these types of things. Could have been a huge set up for returning to "servants of all" if done in the correct way. Internal thoughts and commentary being almost non-existent in this last few books really take away from the depth.

I thought it was addressed fairly well. At least that portion. I would definitley have to re read though.

[Viperswhip]

Why not, it keeps them close to their current form but switches direction enough that they probably avoid the dark future. Given the mass death of so many people in Randland, I expect they may wish to settle in the Caralin Grass area (Elayne would support that), or maybe just in between Cairhienin and Shienar, Hadon Mirk or whatever that place is, close to Kinslayer's. That keeps them close to Rhuiden. Elayne would support either place, but north of Andor is nice and central.

[esvath]

Why will the treaty "nullify" what the White Tower is? The treaty exactly like Compact of the Ten Nations, and the compact was (suspected of) being influenced by the White Tower.

 

Sure, some parts of the White Tower (especially Reds and Greens) are losing their contemporary functions and will redefine themselves for post-LB future. But the others (Yellows, Browns, Whites) will continue what they always do, and will benefit from the Peace. Blues and Grays might need to adjust a little. The Grays already took a deep interest in Travelling weaves, maybe will play as a "communication Ajah" in the future?

[skalors3]

I felt the whole treaty thing was really botched. I'm not sure if RJ invented the details of it or not, but it felt distinctively Brandonesque. Specifically, the part about the Aiel being peacekeepers of the whole thing. That felt like a really unsatisfying role for the Aiel. If it was RJ's invention then I still lay the same criticism against him - though maybe he couldve written the whole event in a way that convinced me better that it would have been believable.

I thought it was clear since avi's vision that the Aiel would be peacekeepers. I even posted a few times on it and people were hating.

 

I think it gave excellent direction to a nationless race. I think it could have been presented better, but the concept was good, if not a little obvious.

[MrBlack]

Is luckers's NDA agreement now moot since AMOL is out? I would love to hear his take on Nakomi. I remember him saying that Nakomi was "theory fodder" which we now know was not accurate since she came from RJ

She may still be theory-fodder, just theory-fodder created by RJ.  He may have left her in just to give the readers something to think about.  I, and others, have stated that she might be RJ's version of Tom Bombadil, who served a somewhat similar purpose to that in the LoTR trilogy, i.e., an intentional enigma.

[Viperswhip]

Well, the Greys will still be mediators and aribtrators of trade agreements and whatnot.

[MrBlack]

Why will the treaty "nullify" what the White Tower is? The treaty exactly like Compact of the Ten Nations, and the compact was (suspected of) being influenced by the White Tower. Sure, some parts of the White Tower (especially Reds and Greens) are losing their contemporary functions and will redefine themselves for post-LB future. But the others (Yellows, Browns, Whites) will continue what they always do, and will benefit from the Peace. Blues and Grays might need to adjust a little. The Grays already took a deep interest in Travelling weaves, maybe will play as a "communication Ajah" in the future?

Reds have been set up as the liason between the White and Black Towers.  Grays can still act in their role as mediators between nations notwithstanding the treaty, so I don't see them changing much.  Ditto for Blues. 

 

I have no idea what the Green Ajah is going to do now. 

[snowtarg]

May have missed this in my skim through of some of the book, but did Rand end up giving Min that gift at all? I don't recall much of a send off for that relationship.

 

Apologies if asked before!

[Callandora]

 

Is luckers's NDA agreement now moot since AMOL is out? I would love to hear his take on Nakomi. I remember him saying that Nakomi was "theory fodder" which we now know was not accurate since she came from RJ

She may still be theory-fodder, just theory-fodder created by RJ.  He may have left her in just to give the readers something to think about.  I, and others, have stated that she might be RJ's version of Tom Bombadil, who served a somewhat similar purpose to that in the LoTR trilogy, i.e., an intentional enigma.

I think not-In the same book signing that i quoted earlier someone had asked him point blank whether Nakomi was placed there for "theory fodder" and he said no but did not give further info

[Viperswhip]

The Green will be power breeders lol

 

Ya, I don't know, maybe work with the Aeil a bit to give the Tower some relevance in the peacekeeping process?

 

I was just about to say that they could keep the knowledge alive, regular humans will be starting to forget about this whole mess in 400 years or so, but that's only 1.3 or so times an Aes Sedai life.

 

But do we want people to know? I guess Lanfear drilled the bore with nobody knowing about the Shadow, but it seems likely that keeping knowledge of him alive invites trouble.

[KakitaOCU]

I figure the Green might join the reds in working with the Black Tower. Just because Tarmon Gaiden is passed is no reason to believe that a channeler with military knowledge and power wouldn't be valuable. Just as the Asha'Man will still, to some extent, be warriors, so to will the green.

[CTGryffindor]

 

 

 

I felt the whole treaty thing was really botched. I'm not sure if RJ invented the details of it or not, but it felt distinctively Brandonesque. Specifically, the part about the Aiel being peacekeepers of the whole thing. That felt like a really unsatisfying role for the Aiel. If it was RJ's invention then I still lay the same criticism against him - though maybe he couldve written the whole event in a way that convinced me better that it would have been believable.

I thought it was clear since avi's vision that the Aiel would be peacekeepers. I even posted a few times on it and people were hating.

 

I think it gave excellent direction to a nationless race. I think it could have been presented better, but the concept was good, if not a little obvious.

.

 

I agree that the concept was a good one, though the execution of that particular chapter overall was one of my biggest complaints. Rand's interaction with Egwene was too infantile, on both ends, and his unquestioning acquiescence to Moraine vis a vis the seals less than convincing. It is believable he would listen to Moraine, but I would have expected he'd require more justification from her before so drastically altering his plans---some reason to take her suggestion, even if a faith based reason, like a hint that she'd learned something by going through the gateway or the circles that she wasn't at liberty to reveal.

[MrBlack]

I figure the Green might join the reds in working with the Black Tower. Just because Tarmon Gaiden is passed is no reason to believe that a channeler with military knowledge and power wouldn't be valuable. Just as the Asha'Man will still, to some extent, be warriors, so to will the green.

The Green could also act as a liason between the White Tower and the Wise Ones and Windfinders.  Such a role would likely benefit from the more outspoken, aggressive nature of the Green Ajah.

[CTGryffindor]

 

I am also thinking that there has to be a good reason why RJ were he alive today would be reluctant to reveal Nakomi's true origin. Could it be that the revelation could throw the fanbase into rebellion?

Why would it cause a rebellion? Serious question. Who cares if Jordan created a world where a creator communicates with people fighting his opposite? The world involves a creator and dark one no matter what. The aversion to the idea that the creator might meddle, even a little bit, seems really freakin overblown to me. It seems like people are looking for affirmation of their own religious views from Jordan to me, which is a ridiculous way to read a FANTASY series. It is supposed to be fun, not life altering.

 

So am I missing something? I hope so, but I doubt it on some scores at least.