Book 11 - Rands Eye's

[Zardi]

Seems to me most who argue against Rand going blind do so because they don't want him to go blind

No, I was arguing against it because I didn't see how Rand could fight if he was completely blind. He'd be completely useless as a channeler, so I was thinking that the body-swap would be the only way around that problem (as far as fan theories, at least).

 

However, Robert's idea that Rand will hold the DO in his prison while the pattern mends it makes sense to me as a possible outcome, and if that is the case, it won't matter how battered Rand's body is. I actually have heard that idea before and thought it was very plausible, so I'm surprised I forgot about it. :oops:

 

Out of curiosity, Robert, what is your opinion on how Rand will live again if your theory is right? Will he rejoin the world somehow to continue living as Rand al'Thor, or will he be born again sometime later as someone completely different? I do think that Rand intended for his question to the Finns to ask how he, Rand al'Thor, could survive...but we don't know if that's how the Finns interpreted it.

[Ravenfire]

I agree that the injury has to be a permanent one, because of the statue of the Fisher, but I don't see why he has to go completely blind.

Some eye injuries deteriorate; but some stay the same; they don't get worse, they don't get better.

 

If that is the case for Rand, he is still trying to see, in spite of the fact that the sun now appears to shine 10 times brighter. That alone is enough reason to tie a cloth around his eyes; after all, who said the cloth is thick enough to obscure his vision completely?

 

For all we know at the moment, it could just be to darken things for him, the RandLand equivalent of sunglasses.

 

And wouldn't it be a coup if his enemies thought erroneously that he really was blind?

[Gentled Ben]

...I didn't see how Rand could fight if he was completely blind. He'd be completely useless as a channeler...

 

Zardi, he'd be completely useless as a channeler against the DO anyway. The DO has god-like powers; Rand does not. Rand was taken down by a circle of Aes Sedai, some of whom were brand new to the shawl. If you want to out-channel the DO, send them. :lol:

 

I know there's a romance to the big showdown at high noon outside the Shayol Ghul saloon: "Shai'tan, this Pattern ain't big enough for the both of us, and there's a new Dragon in town..." but I don't see how that would happen. Frodo didn't fight Sauron, and a good thing too; he stood no more chance against Sauron with Sting than Rand does against the DO with his sparkly Deathgate weave.

 

I honestly don't think that channeling is the method he'll use to fight. It has to be something of the soul; he'll fight him with the essence of his character, his very being, but not with his weaves. If 13 Aes Sedai can shield and clobber him, don't you think the DO can? Rahvin would have destroyed him had it not been for Nynaeve, Be'lal would have too had it not been for Moiraine, Asmodean nearly defeated him, and Moridin had to jump in and help him out against Sammael. I won't count Lanfear because he didn't fight back per se, but you see where I'm going, right? Even being the big, bad channeler on campus, Rand isn't all that and a bag of chips, even with other channelers. How could he hope to out weave the DO? It's his blood and his soul that will win the fight, like Robert said.

[RobertAlexWillis]

Out of curiosity, Robert, what is your opinion on how Rand will live again if your theory is right? Will he rejoin the world somehow to continue living as Rand al'Thor, or will he be born again sometime later as someone completely different? I do think that Rand intended for his question to the Finns to ask how he, Rand al'Thor, could survive...but we don't know if that's how the Finns interpreted it.

 

Good point about the Aelfinn ... it could be argued that simply preserving the Pattern would allow Rand al'Thor's soul to survive, since he would remain the Dragon, subject to being spun into the Pattern again.

 

It depends on how the Aelfinn interpret the concept of "self".

 

If the soul is the "self", then the death of Rand al'Thor which preserved the Dragon would be survival. But if the "self" is the facet personality, then surviving would have to be returning to life as Rand al'Thor. I don't really know for sure how the Aelfinn interpret that, but there is some evidence that Jordan thinks of the facet personality as the "self", and the soul as a kind of template from which the "self" grows.

 

Everybody fears death because the being that is reborn, while possessing the same soul, will not be the same person. The fear is simple. I will cease to exist. Someone else will exist, bearing my soul. But I will cease. I have met many believers in reincarnation, and most of them seem to fear death just as much as anyone else.

 

From his blogpost: http://www.dragonmount.com/RobertJordan/?p=26

 

That would seem to indicate that he conceptualizes the "self" as what I call the "facet personality". If so, and if the Aelfinn conceptualize it the same way, then by dying, Rand must have some way to come back as himself, that is, as Rand al'Thor, not just the Dragon spun out again in a different time and place.

 

Assuming that my theory about entering the Prison is correct (which is, I admit, quite an assumption), the resurrection of Rand al'Thor would have to have something to do with his soul's connection to the Pattern. The Bore connects the Pattern to the Prison. When that connection is obliterated (by the Pattern Healing itself) Rand's soul would be drawn back out of the Prison into the Pattern (I have some strange thoughts on the "surface tension" of the Pattern where it "borders" against the Prison, but I don't know if I can really put them into words). Whether such a return would make reality malleable enough to cure the physical ailments of his body (eyes, hand, etc.) I don't know. The wounds in his side would almost certainly become subject to Healing with the Dark One's influence removed from the world (wounds from Shadar Logoth are already subject to Healing, with sufficient understanding and Power), so the wounds in his side would not be an incurable problem. And since his death would have been achieved by simply removing his soul from his body (when he entered the Dark One's Prison, incidentally, this is how Alivia would "help him die"), the restoration of his soul would be sufficient to restore life to his body (which was not afflicted by any immediately mortal wound), and the physical nature of his brain sufficient to restore the Rand al'Thor facet personality.

 

So, thats my current thinking on the subject. Hopefully Jordan will surprise me.

[Dweller]

I always thought it was in something to do with saa and the true power (somehow linked to moradin). Hasnt been the first time I've been waaaaay off track though, alway thought the taint was linked with the ways and machin shin :?

[Thor]

I like robertalexwilis's (sp?) theory of the closing of the bore, but meh, can't see why the DO would jus sit there and allow Rand to do it. Also, I won't be able to stand having read through the whole explanation and description since that would mean that the rest of the plots will be barely covered since there is only one book left.

 

And no, Rand is not seeing saa.

[Dweller]

And no' date=' Rand is not seeing saa.[/quote']

 

"Two. I can see fine," he lied. The black flecks were gone, but everything still seemed seen through water, and he wanted to squint against a sun that appeared to glare ten times brighter than it had. The old wounds in his side were knotted with pain.

--from KoD, pages 644-645

 

Seems like saa to me

[Thor]

He got splashed with a fireball. It's not saa, and that's final.

[Mercer]

^^ Or, you know, not saa at all.

 

Jordan's described concussion-like symptoms after falls, blows to the head etcetc before, using 'black flecks'. It's the fireball exploding before his face that caused them. That's it. If there were one good reason for him to see saa (especially at that point), if anything indicated a reason or anything, I'd say maybe. Besides, Moridin specifically mentions to himself how the saa never impede eyesight, yet Rand seems to be thinking that now the black flecks that were in his field of vision before, are now gone.

 

(beat me to it, Thor)

[Dweller]

Sorry, just dont buy this half backed theory that he is going to go blind from the fireball, its ridiculous idea.

But then again people jumping onto silly ideas in forums is nothing new :twisted:

[Thor]

Yeah, well show me someone who's been splashed with a fireball and still has good eyesight.

[Dweller]

If a fireball exploded in front of your face with enough force to blow a hand off do you think it might do a bit more immediate damage to someone's vision then a gradual deterioration of eyesight?

[RobertAlexWillis]

If a fireball exploded in front of your face with enough force to blow a hand off do you think it might do a bit more immediate damage to someone's vision then a gradual deterioration of eyesight?

 

No, not necessarily. Explosive damage is from pressure, which can (and does) cause degenerative eye problems that can take effect immediately, or not show up for years, or a combination of both.

 

The black flecks were not moving in a straight line across his eyes. And Rand has never used the True Power, because he has not sworn to follow the Dark One. You have to use the True Power alot to get saa, and they only manifest right after or while you're using it.

 

You can't assume that every "black fleck" is evidence of saa. Well ... you can, but you'd be wrong. I've seen "black flecks" distorting my vision, and it wasn't from channeling the True Power ... it was from getting hit in the head.

[Mat Cauthon]

I don't think that the Fisher piece and dreams are enough reason to think that Rand will definitely go totally blind permanately. Neither shows he will go blind for sure. Obviously something would happen with his eyes (and it did) but it could just mean for a time he has to cover his eyes so they will regain strength. He possibly will go blind but I wont say it is a sure thing from what we know now. Also, if his eyes stay in the same condition he is basically as good as blind.

 

About the Last Battle it will be Narishima/Logain and Rand as the main male channelers. Rand MIGHT need to use the sa'angreal Cheodan Kal to fight the Shai'tan and close the bore. Lanfear said many times that they could fight the Creator himself with them (both) and 1 would help a great deal. I agree that Rand won't be fighting in the main battle between armies, especially with the sa'angreal. If Rand doesn't need the sa'angreal it is likely that Logain will use it in the main fighting and Narishma will use Callandor.

[Mat Cauthon]

We also need to take in account the title of the book "A Memory of Light". This in my opinion has 3 possibilities.

 

1. My first thought was that the Dark wins and then nobody would really remember the Light. This is probably unlikely because I dont see the Dark winning.

 

2. The Last Battle is either at night or it is dark (Shai'tan makes clouds and makes it darker/just pure evilness makes it darker) and the battle is so long that they don't seem to remember the light. I think this is a good possibility.

 

3. Rand and/or Mat lose sight/an eye. That would certainly account for a "memory of light". In one of the prophecies about Mat it says he will "give up half the light of the world to save the world". I think Min also saw him with an eye on a scale (meaning he will sacrifice the eye).

 

What about this possibility. Rand goes blind and Mat sacrifices one of his eyes to Rand so Rand can see.

 

 

Also, I don't get where the people see the Moridin and Rand switch bodies. I think that is a pretty crazy theory but taht is just me.

[Safia al-Maaz]

I always agree with the sensitivity to light, like with the lightening strike in tEotW. It's also a possibility that the use of the True Power damaged his eyes, much like the black spots in Moridin's eyes (I forget what they're called, and I'm sorry if someone else said this already, this is a very long thread and I didn't read the entire thing).

[Magicana]

I always agree with the sensitivity to light' date=' like with the lightening strike in tEotW. It's also a possibility that the use of the True Power damaged his eyes, much like the black spots in Moridin's eyes (I forget what they're called, and I'm sorry if someone else said this already, this is a very long thread and I didn't read the entire thing).[/quote']

 

Saa. Rand cant and never has used the True Power.

[TimWA]

I for some reason thought that all the death at the last battle with Rand, meant that Lews Therin would die inside him and Rand would be just Rand after that. Dunno.

[Thor]

Glad that someone agrees that LTT will die and Rand will live on as normal. :D

[Guest Majsju]

The cloth/bandage covering the eyes of the Fisher is just the earliest version of a pair of sunglasses.

[rrmike]

 

Zardi' date=' he'd be completely useless as a channeler against the DO anyway. The DO has god-like powers; Rand does not. Rand was taken down by a circle of Aes Sedai, some of whom were brand new to the shawl. If you want to out-channel the DO, send them. :lol:

 

[/quote']

 

Did you forget about the access keys? Asmodean asks about it in Rhuidean when Rand asks him what he thinks his chances are and I believe Lanfear tells him with it he could challenge the DO and with both of them they could challenge the creator. Possibly in two different conversations. I don't have the book in front of me right now.

[RobertAlexWillis]

Lanfear does indeed think that they could have challenged the Dark One using both access keys together. However, only one remains now. I think it will barely be enough for Rand to use in keeping the Dark One's influence out of the Bore long enough for it to Heal on its own.

[stoneface]

Min's vision of Rand in tEotW included a beggar's staff, which may indicate blindness.

 

Rand and LTT are facets of the Dragon, who is bound to the Wheel. I could see (1) Rand dies while winning and is in good health in TAR, or (2) Rand dies and goes to TAR until Mat (presumably Mat, but he did die for a while) blows the Horn of Valere, or (3) Rand goes to TAR and then is ripped out, or (4) Rand displaces Moridin's soul, with all the baggage of a Light follower using one of the DO's slimy tricks. Either alternative can be justified by precedents in the story, which means it will probably be something else entirely....

[SinisterDeath]

Bah maj, you beat me to it...

What rands got is exactly the infamous wounds you find happened alot in vietnam. I can't remember exactly what it was called... But it involved having an explosion/flame/bright light and looking directly in it... Generally causing burns around the eyes, Generally it was temporary. And generally didn't get worse. And since Rand can see now, it will either stay that way, Or heal. Though later on it could lead to blindness... One easy example of this is Welding burns. The light is so bright it litterally burns your eyes. *Like lighting a match on your skin* The exact same symptoms. Blurred, swimmy vision. Often if its to close can cause burns on the face.. which, well you know comes from all that fire....

 

The black flecks rand saw, could very easilly be the outside of the eye that was litterally burnt.

 

AS for that cloth. Put a thin sheet of cloth against your face. You can still see through it, but its a bit dimmer. And one definate thing about rands condition right now is his sensitivity to light.

And before I forget. In artic areas, specially in the case of eskimo's, Inniuts or whatever they go by these days. There version of 'sun glasses' was quite litterally a piece of wood with a slit down the middle of it strapped to there face... Cause, going out in the artic, with all that white reflective snow was like staring directly in the sun..

[RobertAlexWillis]

Put a thin sheet of cloth against your face. You can still see through it, but its a bit dimmer. And one definate thing about rands condition right now is his sensitivity to light.

 

A blindfold or bandage (which are the words used in the books to describe whats over the eyes of the Fisher piece and Rand himself in Perrin's Wolf Dream) is not a "thin sheet of cloth". Rand is going blind.