Combat Skills; Egwene vs. Nynaeve (no ter/sa angreal)

[avernite]

A point in favour, however, seems to be that Forkroot clearly doesn't preclude many-way splitting, so that implies strength need not be completely critical (although it also implies Forkroot reduces strength more than dexterity at weaving).

 

We know it does both, that is part of what makes it so impressive.

 

edit: Wanted to add as well that we don't have enough about Nyn's method for removing the taint to draw the conclusions you make above.

 

We know Nynaeve pushes each pin back with spirit, and has to hold them out of the way. We also know she heals every spot she removed a pin from. I suppose it's technically possible that a single flow of spirit does all the holding back, while she uses separate flows for the rest...

 

As to 'it does both' I don't see it in the immediate chapters regarding forkroot (Nyn/Elayne's capture, Egwene's arrest, KoD24 in the tower) but I may have missed some.

[Durinax]

We know it does both, that is part of what makes it so impressive.

 

edit: Wanted to add as well that we don't have enough about Nyn's method for removing the taint to draw the conclusions you make above.

could we get a quote about how we know it does both all the time?

 

as for the second, we know that Nyn has to maintain the weaves to hold the barbs out, and then individually heal each small puncture. The thing we don't know is how many. Other than Rand has thousands and thousands, so dozens would be a reasonable assumption for the amount that she healed

[Entreri]

Nynaeve has the skills advantage and the strength advantage. Battle experience, willpower, they are similar. Egwene only has the dexterity advantage.

Barring TAR or balefire, Nyaneve toasts Egwene.

 

Some people are placing far too much on this dexterity thing.

 

If dexterity is be all and end all, none of the Forsaken would comment on strength, but instead they would all comment on dexterity. What do all the channelers, not just the Forsaken comment on? STRENGTH in the OP.

 

As for what RJ said, supposedly with this dexterity bonus Lanfear would be able to channel as many weaves as Rand or Ishamael, thus do anything they could do, however, the stronger fighter would still have an advantage. Being that much stronger, can shield a channeler who held the power...their attacks would be stronger = more likely to get through your shields and so forth.

 

Like I said, if the dexterity bonus cancelled out the strength, then nobody would bother commenting on the strength difference.

Someone like Rahvin would know that neither he nor Sammael would ever have a chance against Lanfear.

 

Thus, Egwene dexterity bonus is not going to enough. If dexterity is be all and end all, Moghdiein would confront Ishamael...she would never comment on Rahvin's strength and how they are no match for him. Hell, the men don't even fear the might of Lanfear (as shown by Rahvin's PoV).

[Ozzie_aiel]

I'd put my money on Nynaeve over Egwene. Egwene I think is more adaptable but our Nyn is a little scrapper, she wont give up at all. Nynaeve is like Rand, she rarely finds herself in a swirling melee like Egwene seems to find but rather 1 on 1 with really powerful channelers.

 

Plus all that hair pulling practice.

[Amandera]

Nynaeve has the skills advantage and the strength advantage. Battle experience, willpower, they are similar. Egwene only has the dexterity advantage.

Barring TAR or balefire, Nyaneve toasts Egwene.

 

Some people are placing far too much on this dexterity thing.

 

If dexterity is be all and end all, none of the Forsaken would comment on strength, but instead they would all comment on dexterity. What do all the channelers, not just the Forsaken comment on? STRENGTH in the OP.

 

As for what RJ said, supposedly with this dexterity bonus Lanfear would be able to channel as many weaves as Rand or Ishamael, thus do anything they could do, however, the stronger fighter would still have an advantage. Being that much stronger, can shield a channeler who held the power...their attacks would be stronger = more likely to get through your shields and so forth.

 

Like I said, if the dexterity bonus cancelled out the strength, then nobody would bother commenting on the strength difference.

Someone like Rahvin would know that neither he nor Sammael would ever have a chance against Lanfear.

 

Thus, Egwene dexterity bonus is not going to enough. If dexterity is be all and end all, Moghdiein would confront Ishamael...she would never comment on Rahvin's strength and how they are no match for him. Hell, the men don't even fear the might of Lanfear (as shown by Rahvin's PoV).

First, Forsaken are very unreliable in this, per RJ, because none of them would admit to a weakness and each of them believe they should be above everybody else. Second, per RJ again, dextery does negate strength, because the strongest female channeler can do pretty much anything the strongest male can do excluding gender specific abilities like linking and to the same degree.

 

However, even dexterity and strength are not the only factors, knowledge, experience and personal Talents come into play too.

 

I don't know whether Egwene or Nynaeve would win in a duel. Nynaeve has the strength advantage, Egwene seemingly has the dexterity but we can't conclusively say how big advantages they each have. Their knowledge and experience are roughly equal but while Nynaeve is mainly a healer, Egwene is more of a fighter which would give her another advantage over Nynaeve. But again, we don't know how big an advantage that is because Nynaeve can handle herself in a fight too.

 

My conclusion, they would match pretty evenly. And the winner of their duel would be a coin toss, at least at this point of the series.

[Entreri]

Nynaeve has the skills advantage and the strength advantage. Battle experience, willpower, they are similar. Egwene only has the dexterity advantage.

Barring TAR or balefire, Nyaneve toasts Egwene.

 

Some people are placing far too much on this dexterity thing.

 

If dexterity is be all and end all, none of the Forsaken would comment on strength, but instead they would all comment on dexterity. What do all the channelers, not just the Forsaken comment on? STRENGTH in the OP.

 

As for what RJ said, supposedly with this dexterity bonus Lanfear would be able to channel as many weaves as Rand or Ishamael, thus do anything they could do, however, the stronger fighter would still have an advantage. Being that much stronger, can shield a channeler who held the power...their attacks would be stronger = more likely to get through your shields and so forth.

 

Like I said, if the dexterity bonus cancelled out the strength, then nobody would bother commenting on the strength difference.

Someone like Rahvin would know that neither he nor Sammael would ever have a chance against Lanfear.

 

Thus, Egwene dexterity bonus is not going to enough. If dexterity is be all and end all, Moghdiein would confront Ishamael...she would never comment on Rahvin's strength and how they are no match for him. Hell, the men don't even fear the might of Lanfear (as shown by Rahvin's PoV).

First, Forsaken are very unreliable in this, per RJ, because none of them would admit to a weakness and each of them believe they should be above everybody else. Second, per RJ again, dextery does negate strength, because the strongest female channeler can do pretty much anything the strongest male can do excluding gender specific abilities like linking and to the same degree.

 

However, even dexterity and strength are not the only factors, knowledge, experience and personal Talents come into play too.

 

I don't know whether Egwene or Nynaeve would win in a duel. Nynaeve has the strength advantage, Egwene seemingly has the dexterity but we can't conclusively say how big advantages they each have. Their knowledge and experience are roughly equal but while Nynaeve is mainly a healer, Egwene is more of a fighter which would give her another advantage over Nynaeve. But again, we don't know how big an advantage that is because Nynaeve can handle herself in a fight too.

 

My conclusion, they would match pretty evenly. And the winner of their duel would be a coin toss, at least at this point of the series.

 

No. Rahvin in this case was stating it as a fact in his PoV and he included Sammael, this was not due to ego. Likely all the male Forsaken can overpower Lanfear in a face to face confronation...even Rand who was not at full power would have if LTT took over in book 5.

 

If the females have 21 levels of power, the male max probably reaches 25.

 

Dexterity would only affect how many weaves a channeler can weave. So yes, in that sense the strongest women can do anything a man can. If Rand or Ishamael can launch 100 fireballs at once, so can Lanfear.

 

However, it has absolutely no bearing on the strength of the weave, the range, area of coverage, to name a few. So Rand's and Ishamael's fireballs would be larger, stronger, can reach further distance and their impact (thus more likely to breach) a person's shield would be greater than Lanfear's.

 

Otherwise, Aes Sedai of AoL would have created a lot of ter'angreal that would allow people to increase their dexterity. What is the point of strength? Is there a single ter'angreal like that we seen? No. What do all the Forsaken crave, regardless of sex? Sa'angrael and angreal.

 

No once have any of the Forsaken commented on another's dexterity, only strength. Dexterity is an after thought, if that.

 

What do the Aes Sedai of this age continously cry about? Not finding enough women who can channel and them being WEAK. AS structure of the current Age is based on OP strength. Asha'man structure of the current Age is based on strength.

 

So it very unlikely that Egwene can defeat Nyanaeve barring the usual (balefire, TAR). Nyaneve would simple overpower her. Egwene is toast.

 

 

Skill > Strength > Dexterity

[cookiecrisp]

Neither of these characters are very good at combat with the power compared to any real combat based characters, it would mostly come down to luck. Assuming that the only things they would try to do are to kill/still/shield each other, whoever had the more creative/quick weave that was directed at meeting any of the objectives would win. Neither of these characters have been shown to be exceedingly fast with weaves like compulsion, and moreover Nynaeve has shown resistance to this weave, so that's out of the picture.

 

Even Gedwyn almost killed Rand in his assassination attempt. Gedwyn/Rochaid are nothing compared to the likes of Logain, Taim, Demandred, Sammael, Rahvin, etc. If Rand had not used his LTT loaned, earth based shielding weave that was tight enough not to let even air though, he would've been toast. Neither of Egwene or Nynaeve have exhibited knowledge of weaves such as that or Caduane's anti-AoL lightning "inverted umbrella" weave.

 

Egwene has damane training, but I doubt she's actually strong enough to weave 10 of these sort of weaves at once. Nynaeve has more pure strength and knows how to engage in battles of brute force, but it's debatable that she can pull this off if they are not in remotely close quarters like Nynaeve v Mogy. Environment also matters greatly. Nynaeve's said to have more woodcraft and survival skills than Egwene by far, but she's shown a horrid inability to hide herself at all in an urban setting like Ebou Dar.

 

Egwene's never once been a threat to any big fighters in an OP fight. Nynaeve's only shown the ability to defeat an arrogant idiot like Mogy (who would in turn get roasted by half of the named Ashaman soldiers in the story if she had engaged them the way she engaged Nynaeve).

 

I think whoever managed to more simple weaves like making stuff explode faster than the other more accurately would win if they were both holding the power. There's no real textual evidence for who would be able to manage that. I guess Egwene would know more due to her time as a damane, but Nynaeve's strength would give her a range advantage. Neither have really shown themselves to be capable of stopping a bolt of lightning from the sky from roasting them. In fact, Nynaeve and Egwene were willing themselves away to dodge weaves in TAR rather than overusing the OP to block them like everything else.

 

It's clear that any experienced channelers like Cadsuane would poop on either of these two. These two can't even manage to keep their wits about them from being surprised by AS sitting on the other bank or sea folk children.

[Nightstrike]

Rand could do many flows simultaneously as well, and Eggy and Elayne thought she might have had a chance where they failed.

[Kamin_Majere]

Rand could do many flows simultaneously as well, and Eggy and Elayne thought she might have had a chance where they failed.

 

That's mostly because neither one knew how strong Rand really was. They assumed he would be Nynaeve's level of strength since he was able to handle them like kittens. The problem is they had never actually met anyone truly strong in the Power to even have a gauge to judge by. They assumed that Nynaeve was the strongest female walking the planet because they had never met someone like Lanfear (or had the ability to sense people like Rand and Ishamael)

 

I still think Nynaeve would beat Egwene, but their statements there were made in ignorance of what true strength in the One Power was

[Wandering Channeler]

I'd say Nyn as well, but just in case it hasn't been brought up (I didn't read all 7 pages) Egwene went beast mode defending the tower against the Seachan. Obviously she had the flute sa'angreal but regardless of the power amplification she was still making and controlling the weaves. Just a thought to add to consideration.

[Barid Bel Medar]

I'd say Nyn as well, but just in case it hasn't been brought up (I didn't read all 7 pages) Egwene went beast mode defending the tower against the Seachan. Obviously she had the flute sa'angreal but regardless of the power amplification she was still making and controlling the weaves. Just a thought to add to consideration.

 

It was more of a slaughter than an actual fight. She didn't have to do much defending, she was just blasting the crap out of raken etc.. 

 

That's why it isn't really a focus of the discussion. 

 

Although I am not sure of the question any more. 

 

There are many different ways to interpret it.  

 

The original title combat skills would probably go to Egwene, since she is good at blasting stuff. 

 

But somewhere along the line, it turned into a Nynaeve v Egwene duel, which is a different matter, where I believe Nynaeve would be better suited to OP duelling. 

 

So depends what you are going for as to the answer. 

 

As I have said previously. 

 

Egwene for fighting on the frontlines destroying Shadowspawn. Nynaeve for missions to take out Dreadlords or one of the Forsaken. (this is excluding TAR, where Egwene would trump Nynaeve obviously) 

[Ozzie_aiel]

I agree, Egwene kicks butt against numerous, less talented foes while Nynaeve is more of a duellist.

[Guest Deep_Squat]

To think Egwene would win this encounter is silly.  How about an alalogy:

 

Egwene ("level" 15), 2ish years of experience channeling

 

versus

 

Romanda ("level" 12), hundreds of years experience channeling.

 

"Only" three levels difference according to the 13th Depository estimate, so the hundreds of years experience should mean that she will best Egwene, right?

 

And this dexterity argument is nonsense.  A boxing analogy:

 

IBF Champions super middleweight Carl Froch (167 lbs) versus heavyweight Wladimir Kitschko (242 lbs).  They are separated by three weight classes (or "levels").

 

Unless you've been hit in the head by a bus, you likely agree that Klitschko wins in a matter of seconds. 

 

Face it, size and strength matter.  Nynaeve wins.  Flawless victory.

[Suttree]

And this dexterity argument is nonsense. A boxing analogy:

 

IBF Champions super middleweight Carl Froch (167 lbs) versus heavyweight Wladimir Kitschko (242 lbs). They are separated by three weight classes (or "levels").

 

Unless you've been hit in the head by a bus, you likely agree that Klitschko wins in a matter of seconds.

 

Yes totally absurd. A smaller guy like Roy Jones Jr. could never beat a heavyweight with his dexterity! Errr wait....

 

Also if you are going to pick a decent super middle go with Andre Ward, not that scrub Froch.

[Maleshub]

 

And this dexterity argument is nonsense. A boxing analogy:

 

IBF Champions super middleweight Carl Froch (167 lbs) versus heavyweight Wladimir Kitschko (242 lbs). They are separated by three weight classes (or "levels").

 

Unless you've been hit in the head by a bus, you likely agree that Klitschko wins in a matter of seconds.

Yes totally absurd. A smaller guy like Roy Jones Jr. could never beat a heavyweight with his dexterity! Errr wait....

 

Also if you are going to pick a decent super middle go with Andre Ward, not that scrub Froch.

 

 

How would Kitschko fare against the world's best martial artist, even if he weighs 50 lbs less? 

[elric]

Nyneav would beat Eggy.

 

experience:

Nyn went trough several life or death OP duels against forsaken and LINKED BA while as far as i rem i dont recall ANY duel Eggy did (if she had plz remind me of it).

 

battle training:

Eggy 'famous' sanchean train was as i recall only few month that MOST of it was dedicated NOT to train her but to BREAK her and mold her to the collar, she simply picked few basic destruction weaves and learned she can locate mineral which indicate she good with earth.

 

Streangth:

Nyn was stated as much stronger several time from several povs and in several diffrent situation.

 

Dexterity.

where does it say Eggy is more dexterious ?

yes Eggy is extremly adpet and agile, but also is Nyn.

healing the taint holding each spike with a diffrent spirit weave (unknown number of spikes) and that AFTER spending lot of power cleaning the city from the flameable dust and beeing quite exhousted.

healing the wounded maiden which Ellaine describe as weaving 4 dresses at once one with each limbs and that while still blocked and at the VERY START of her training.

 

Knowledge and finesse

i dont recall Eggy doing much OP learning and training.

after her rising to Amerylin , most of Eggy time was spent on politic /scheaming/ learning law and history and when it does mention she practice it was in dreaming.

while Nyn kept practicing and honing her channeling.

about the claim that Nyn ability to learn weaves by simply looking at it once is just copying , mere copying wouldnt allow Nyn to master those new weave and to modify /innervate them with such ease.

also Nyn kept discovering things that been considared IMPOSSIBLE in AOL -> healing compulsion , healing the taint maddness.

also i found Nyn dwelling ability as a sign who show how honed and refine her skill become, her OP dwelling ability is all about finesse and control.

 

Cadsuan Remark.

yes Nyn is abisimal AS-> she is impulsive, she has great problem controlling her temper, she DARE to actually show emotion in public, she is the VERY STREOTYPE of the yellow Aga -> healing is the most importent all the rest is minor to it., she dont know history, she dont learn the law, her etiquette is about non existing, her patience is M.I.A.... there a LOT of thing that define u as AS and Nyn probably abisimal in most of them but to take this remark ignore the part that the channeling Nyn do is border on the legendary and jump to the conclusion that Nyn good ONLY at healing and suck at EVERYTHING else is a bit of a stretch.

 

and about the argument the Dex rule , streangth dont play a part:

take Jacky Chan/Jet li / Goerge st Pier (sp ?) / Frank Shemrock (imo Frank much better then Ken) / Royce Gracy/your favorite fighter...  can u beat them probably not.

now transfer their entire personality /maturity and skill set to a body of a 10 year old -> will u beat them now ???

 

another example that jump to mind:

Bruck Lesner vs Frank Mir 1 &  2

first 1 Bruck who had zero MMA knowledge lost to Mir after dominating the early fight -> Aliv vs Cin (altough Ali WON, cin retreated)

2nd fight -> Bruck dominated the more skilled /more agile /more dexterious Mir

[Suttree]

Cadsuan Remark.

yes Nyn is abisimal AS-> she is impulsive, she has great problem controlling her temper, she DARE to actually show emotion in public, she is the VERY STREOTYPE of the yellow Aga -> healing is the most importent all the rest is minor to it., she dont know history, she dont learn the law, her etiquette is about non existing, her patience is M.I.A.... there a LOT of thing that define u as AS and Nyn probably abisimal in most of them but to take this remark ignore the part that the channeling Nyn do is border on the legendary and jump to the conclusion that Nyn good ONLY at healing and suck at EVERYTHING else is a bit of a stretch.

This plays zero part in it. Cadsuane was referring specifically to channeling, not the the rest of the things you touch on.

 

 

@Theodril

 

Good point. The Klitshko analogy works here and it is obvious raw power does not always beat out dexterity and skill.

[fionwe1987]

Wow. Eight fricking pages of this discussion without some major relevant quotes? What's happening here?

 

First, and most important, here is RJ's comparative assessment of Egwene, Elayne and Nynaeve:

 

Yes, Elayne, Nynaeve and Egwene could pass the test for Aes Sedai with their current abilities, though Nynaeve might be a little hard pressed. Too much specialization.

 

While this was, of course, before tGS, nothing we have seen in tGS has shown Nynaeve showing skill in anything but her specialized skillset. Note that the point RJ is making is not that Nynaeve can never pass the test with ease. He's saying that she hasn't paid much attention to anything but her core interests. That continues even in tGS/ToM. Sure, she learned the Aes Sedai weaves. They're complicated, and require skill, and Nynaeve can obviously use them after seeing them performed once. But here's the thing... they're next to useless in a battle situation. As Moiraine says in New Spring, the effects they produce require far more effort than usual, simply because the AS want them to be complicated. Now, when Nynaeve was forced to use them during her test, she was clever enough to make them useful in defeating her enemies. That does show one of Nynaeve's great abilities: to do the unexpected, and think quickly. But she'd be an utter fool to use those weaves in a standard combat situation. I doubt she'll ever do that.

 

As to other AS abilities apart from these 100 weaves, Egwene clearly is far more knowledgeable than Nynaeve. We don't just have Bennae's assessment. We also have Katerine's:

 

"You will have no further lessons," Katerine said. "At least, not of the kind you have been receiving. All agree that your skill with weaves is impressive, for a novice." 

 

I'm sure some genius out there is going to claim this means Egwene is merely a skilled Novice...

 

Now, lets consider strength. There have been any number of idiotic statements made on Egwene's strength vs. Nynaeve. As I went through these 8 pages, I even saw some people using Moiraine's hyperbolic candle-bonfire statement as fact! Well... here's to dashing all those ideas:

 

Only then did Nynaeve realize how angry she was; the True Source beckoned from just beyond the edge of sight. Embracing saidar she slammed a shield between Elayne and the Source. Or rather, she tried to. Shielding someone who already held the Power was not easy even when you were the stronger. Once, as a girl,

she had swung Master Luhhan's hammer against his anvil as hard as she could, and the shiver of it ran all the way to her toes. This was about twice that.

 

At this point, Elayne was not at her full strength. At this point, Egwene is said to be stronger than Elayne. However, months before, in tSR, Nynave was already as strong as Moghedien, and hence as strong as Elayne would ever be. Which means when this scene occurs in aCoS, Nynaeve is clearly stronger than Elayne. While Nynaeve has likely grown in strength since then, note that Egwene has too, and the difference between Elayne in Nynaeve in aCoS is not likely to be much lesser than that between Egwene and Nynaeve now, if at all. Yet, Nynaeve is not able to slam a shield on Elayne. 

 

The implication? There is no overwhelming strength difference between Nynaeve and Egwene. Nynaeve is clearly stronger. We don't know exactly by how much. But she can't overwhelm Egwene. 

 

Nor can Egwene overwhelm her, of course. Which is why knowledge, skill, and dexterity come in. As far as knowledge goes, there's no argument Egwene knows more, especially of weaves useful in combat. As for skill, again there is plenty of evidence for Egwene being more skilled generally, and Nynaeve lagging behind because she's over-specialized. When it comes to dexterity... this is where there's a clear advantage for Egwene. It isn't just that she can make 14 weaves. Its that she can make 14 weaves do 14 different things all at once. As she herself points out, juggling with the power is not much easier than juggling physically, and that kind of precise control is exactly what is useful in battle. In the battle between Talaan and Nynaeve, placement of weaves and the ability to slide them around and avoid obstacles created by your opponent was critical. And Egwene can do that sort of thing for 14 different weaves at ones, something we've never even seen Nynaeve attempt. I don't doubt she can get near that, but she doesn't have it now. 

 

As for battle... compare:

 

Obviously Nynaeve was no longer shielded, and if the chilly silver foxhead sliding around Mat's chest as he fought was not enough indication that she and the Black sisters were in some sort of struggle, the way they glared at her and she at them, ignoring the battle around them, shouted the fact...

 

 

"Fight," Nynaeve snapped at them. She turned her head just a fraction, so she could see them as well as Falion and Ispan. "I cannot do it alone; they're linked.

 

Two fairly weak Aes Sedai (both weaker than Liandrin) linked are able to keep Nynaeve at bay.

 

Abruptly it came to her that she was not shielded. Muddled she might be, but that made no sense at all. They could feel her strength, as she could theirs, and while none was weak, she thought she could overcome all five if she were quick enough...

 

 

Egwene merely sighed as the weave settled on her; she doubted she could have embraced saidar yet in any case, and against five already full of the Power, success would have lasted moments at most.

 

If Egwene is quick, she can handle five Aes Sedai, none of them weak. Once they're all full of the Power, she cannot do so. While the difference is fuzzy, it seems pretty clear that Egwene is portrayed as having greater capabilities in combat than Nynaeve. 

 

To add to all this, Egwene doesn't innovate in the one part of the OP she's comfortable with. She innovates all over the place. The way she modulates her anti-eavesdropping ward to project whispers and thus draw in enemy spies is a classic case of Egwene doing something clever with the Power. Nynaeve watches and indicates she can copy it, true. But will Nynaeve ever herself come up with it? Nope, since she doesn't bother with those branches of the OP. And here's a quote discussing the difficulty of making wards do multiple things by Rand in tFoH:

 

Wardings were complex weaves, if tenuous, and trying to make them do more than one thing could render them useless, in practicality.

 

So... which of the two would win? That depends, really. In an out and out shielding match, barring any shielding Talents that would add to either side, Nynaeve would eventually win. But that kind of combat rarely happens, with good reason. Its intensive on strength alone, and not sustainable forever. In a more normal combat, the outcome is less predictable. Neither will wipe the floor with the other, but Egwene knows more, and practices more, has more skill and has greater dexterity. Nynaeve has somewhat more strength. Based on RJ's comment, especially, I'd currently give the edge to Egwene. If Nynaeve cleans up her act, and learns more, then things get really interesting. But I really don't see a point coming where combat between these two will be a foregone conclusion. They're both resourceful and tough, and neither is lacking in the strength department. In the end, it boils down to who displays more skill, better strategy and displays quicker reflexes.

[Durinax]

Wow. Eight fricking pages of this discussion without some major relevant quotes? What's happening here?

 

First, and most important, here is RJ's comparative assessment of Egwene, Elayne and Nynaeve:

 

 

Yes, Elayne, Nynaeve and Egwene could pass the test for Aes Sedai with their current abilities, though Nynaeve might be a little hard pressed. Too much specialization.

 

 

While this was, of course, before tGS, nothing we have seen in tGS has shown Nynaeve showing skill in anything but her specialized skillset. Note that the point RJ is making is not that Nynaeve can never pass the test with ease. He's saying that she hasn't paid much attention to anything but her core interests. That continues even in tGS/ToM. Sure, she learned the Aes Sedai weaves. They're complicated, and require skill, and Nynaeve can obviously use them after seeing them performed once. But here's the thing... they're next to useless in a battle situation. As Moiraine says in New Spring, the effects they produce require far more effort than usual, simply because the AS want them to be complicated. Now, when Nynaeve was forced to use them during her test, she was clever enough to make them useful in defeating her enemies. That does show one of Nynaeve's great abilities: to do the unexpected, and think quickly. But she'd be an utter fool to use those weaves in a standard combat situation. I doubt she'll ever do that.

 

As to other AS abilities apart from these 100 weaves, Egwene clearly is far more knowledgeable than Nynaeve. We don't just have Bennae's assessment. We also have Katerine's:

 

"You will have no further lessons," Katerine said. "At least, not of the kind you have been receiving. All agree that your skill with weaves is impressive, for a novice." 

 

I'm sure some genius out there is going to claim this means Egwene is merely a skilled Novice...

 

Now, lets consider strength. There have been any number of idiotic statements made on Egwene's strength vs. Nynaeve. As I went through these 8 pages, I even saw some people using Moiraine's hyperbolic candle-bonfire statement as fact! Well... here's to dashing all those ideas:

 

 

Only then did Nynaeve realize how angry she was; the True Source beckoned from just beyond the edge of sight. Embracing saidar she slammed a shield between Elayne and the Source. Or rather, she tried to. Shielding someone who already held the Power was not easy even when you were the stronger. Once, as a girl,

she had swung Master Luhhan's hammer against his anvil as hard as she could, and the shiver of it ran all the way to her toes. This was about twice that.

 

 

At this point, Elayne was not at her full strength. At this point, Egwene is said to be stronger than Elayne. However, months before, in tSR, Nynave was already as strong as Moghedien, and hence as strong as Elayne would ever be. Which means when this scene occurs in aCoS, Nynaeve is clearly stronger than Elayne. While Nynaeve has likely grown in strength since then, note that Egwene has too, and the difference between Elayne in Nynaeve in aCoS is not likely to be much lesser than that between Egwene and Nynaeve now, if at all. Yet, Nynaeve is not able to slam a shield on Elayne. 

 

The implication? There is no overwhelming strength difference between Nynaeve and Egwene. Nynaeve is clearly stronger. We don't know exactly by how much. But she can't overwhelm Egwene. 

 

Nor can Egwene overwhelm her, of course. Which is why knowledge, skill, and dexterity come in. As far as knowledge goes, there's no argument Egwene knows more, especially of weaves useful in combat. As for skill, again there is plenty of evidence for Egwene being more skilled generally, and Nynaeve lagging behind because she's over-specialized. When it comes to dexterity... this is where there's a clear advantage for Egwene. It isn't just that she can make 14 weaves. Its that she can make 14 weaves do 14 different things all at once. As she herself points out, juggling with the power is not much easier than juggling physically, and that kind of precise control is exactly what is useful in battle. In the battle between Talaan and Nynaeve, placement of weaves and the ability to slide them around and avoid obstacles created by your opponent was critical. And Egwene can do that sort of thing for 14 different weaves at ones, something we've never even seen Nynaeve attempt. I don't doubt she can get near that, but she doesn't have it now. 

 

As for battle... compare:

 

 

Obviously Nynaeve was no longer shielded, and if the chilly silver foxhead sliding around Mat's chest as he fought was not enough indication that she and the Black sisters were in some sort of struggle, the way they glared at her and she at them, ignoring the battle around them, shouted the fact...

 

 

"Fight," Nynaeve snapped at them. She turned her head just a fraction, so she could see them as well as Falion and Ispan. "I cannot do it alone; they're linked.

 

 

Two fairly weak Aes Sedai (both weaker than Liandrin) linked are able to keep Nynaeve at bay.

 

 

Abruptly it came to her that she was not shielded. Muddled she might be, but that made no sense at all. They could feel her strength, as she could theirs, and while none was weak, she thought she could overcome all five if she were quick enough...

 

Egwene merely sighed as the weave settled on her; she doubted she could have embraced saidar yet in any case, and against five already full of the Power, success would have lasted moments at most.

If Egwene is quick, she can handle five Aes Sedai, none of them weak. Once they're all full of the Power, she cannot do so. While the difference is fuzzy, it seems pretty clear that Egwene is portrayed as having greater capabilities in combat than Nynaeve. 

 

The novice quote is in the wrong context, it cannot be taken into account in any serious way, since she is being compared to the basics.

 

As the for the being able to take 5 sisters on at once, as you said she was muddled, and as such I read it as the 'success' that she thinks of would be to seize the source, which would be taken away quite quickly. Also I noticed that it does not say the the 5 where linked, which makes them significantly weaker than if they where. Which is all moot due to the second part of the quote which may as well be me saying that I can take on a boxing champion.

[elric]

Sutt

 

since my WH copy is translated paper book i took the liberty of reposting your quote Sut

WH
Quote

"The girl had good material in her, but her training had been cut far too short. Her ability with Healing was little short of miraculous, her ability with almost anything else dismal."

 

i admist english aint my native languege so i may be missing something but but where in this quote it say her ability with any other type of CHANNELING is dismal ?

the quote clearly refer to Nyn incomplete AS training but these training include many other things beside channeling.

also considering that altough they lack much of the AS knowledge the wise one casting technique is superior (no hand movment as requierment, able to unweave constructs, more focus on practice and experimenting with the force rather then follow age old traditions...) is Nyn lack of AS train a bad thing of is it an advantage ?

 

btw considering the healing IS channeling claiming that a person is a GREAT and IMBA SKILLED healer but a lousy channeler is kind like claiming -> Hawking is a GREAT Phisicist but he a lousy scientist in everything else.

 

this is just in regard to cadsuan remark there been several more points

like where does it say Eggy is more dexrerious then Nyn ?

like Bruke Leshner as Streangt vs agility and skill example

and more :)

 

Fion

 

the Eggy vs 5 quote please remind me the book /situation

and there a BIG diffrence between what one THINK he can do to what he actually can :)

and Eggy never suffer from self confidence issue to say it mildly :)))

 

and where does it say/show that Nyn is less dexterious that Eggy.

she show great dexterity in her healing spells dealing with multiple weaves.

 

i also not sure Eggy no more (and btw knowledge is not dexterity) consider she stop practicing channeling after she become amerilin.

[fionwe1987]

 

The novice quote is in the wrong context, it cannot be taken into account in any serious way, since she is being compared to the basics.

That took all of 13 minutes...

She is most certainly not being compared to the basics. The very first time she's tested on the Power:

that first afternoon, the Shienaran Brown asked her to perform an exhaustive set of weaves one after the other...

"I think there is little of the Power that remains for you to learn. child, especially considering your wonderful discoveries."

 

After and exhaustive set of weaves, Egwene is pronounced to have mastered pretty much anything there is to learn about the OP in the White Tower. That's the first time she had such a test, and Katerine is speaking weeks later, when Egwene's abilities with channeling have been tested more times, including by a Yellow, and found to be excellent. She was not practicing Novice exercises!

As the for the being able to take 5 sisters on at once, as you said she was muddled,

I said no such thing. She was recovering from forkroot, and there's nothing muddled about her thinking.

and as such I read it as the 'success' that she thinks of would be to seize the source, which would be taken away quite quickly.

Go read the quote again.

Also I noticed that it does not say the the 5 where linked, which makes them significantly weaker than if they where.

But by no means weaker than two weak sisters linked, which is the comparison of importance.

Which is all moot due to the second part of the quote which may as well be me saying that I can take on a boxing champion.

Huh? Did you even understand the gist of what she's saying? Let me clarify. She's saying she can be quick enough in weaving to defeat five strong sisters, so long as she gets hold of the source before them. Once they already hold the Power and she does not, she doesn't expect to succeed from that position. Kapish?

ETA: what's wrong with the quote system?

[Nightstrike]

First, and most important, here is RJ's comparative assessment of Egwene, Elayne and Nynaeve:

 

 

Yes, Elayne, Nynaeve and Egwene could pass the test for Aes Sedai with their current abilities, though Nynaeve might be a little hard pressed. Too much specialization.

Nynaeve practiced the weaves later effortlessly with the weakest AS and got a super-difficult test (and it doesn't measure duelling skills at all). She performed all the weaves during the test, which means learning the weaves wasn't the problem. When was the quote from - could she even channel when not angry then?

[fionwe1987]

 

First, and most important, here is RJ's comparative assessment of Egwene, Elayne and Nynaeve:

 

Yes, Elayne, Nynaeve and Egwene could pass the test for Aes Sedai with their current abilities, though Nynaeve might be a little hard pressed. Too much specialization.

Nynaeve practiced the weaves later effortlessly with the weakest AS and got a super-difficult test (and it doesn't measure duelling skills at all). She performed all the weaves during the test, which means learning the weaves wasn't the problem. When was the quote from - could she even channel when not angry then?

 

Yes, learning the weaves was never the problem. The problem was that Nynaeve didn't really know all that much apart from Healing, and the AS test requires you to do more than create those 100 weaves. You're put up against all sorts of tough situations, where you need to use other weaves to destroy enemies and defend yourself. 

 

The quote, incidentally, is from October 2005, so after KoD was written.

[Mr Ares]

Sutt

 

since my WH copy is translated paper book i took the liberty of reposting your quote Sut

WH

Quote

"The girl had good material in her, but her training had been cut far too short. Her ability with Healing was little short of miraculous, her ability with almost anything else dismal."

 

i admist english aint my native languege so i may be missing something but but where in this quote it say her ability with any other type of CHANNELING is dismal ?

 

 Well, If her ability with anything other than Healing is dismal, and forms of channeling that aren't Healing are things other than Healing, they are therefore included in the category of dismal.

 

 

 

the quote clearly refer to Nyn incomplete AS training but these training include many other things beside channeling.

Yes, but it doesn't exclude other channeling from the list of things Nynaeve is dismal at.

[elric]

Mr Ares

 

i agrea it CAN be viewd as if referring to Nyn other chaneling area.

but it ALSO CAN refer simply to her ability to be AS and to her lacking in any other AS aspect -> decorume, general knowledge ....  :)

 

it not as cut and dry as it was presented in this debate :)

(i simply said it a bit sarcasticly :))    ).

 

and keeping in mind that it a personal opinion of 1 char who been known to make mistakes here and there

an opinion formed during a VERY stressfull time and that atleast to me seem more like a snide remark or stress/ mood outlet

Nyn performance in the testing greatly under rated by some in this debate.

her ablity as channeler and healing IS channeling

her great skill in delving which atleast to me indicate skill and percision and not simply brute streangth.

 

i do believe that counting  this as the main proof to Nyn < skilled / dexterous then Eggy is a stretch.