Combat Skills; Egwene vs. Nynaeve (no ter/sa angreal)

[avernite]

Cadsuane calls Nynaeve's skill dismal, true.

 

Cadsuane also says Nynaeve is the only one of the current crop who may yet be saved. I conclude from that that dismal is not THAT much worse than the average AS. Given that Nynaeve has clearly been training in the OP since then (and her only having learned weaves is entirely conjecture; we have it on author authority that Nynaeve was creative with her weaves in the test, at least) and given that Egwene has only one OP 'duel' (namely vs Rand in the Stone, which was over before it began) I don't think we can just conclude Egwene is better at it.

 

Consider: Nynaeve implies she balances Naeff by her strength compensating a lack of specific skill. However, in the same scene, her curiosity makes her channel into the dustcloud of the bubble of evil (clearly she's not just into using weaves she already knows for known purposes). More importantly, unaided, she splits her flows a large number of ways to heal him. Dozens, by implication, while tired, and still having the ability to Heal while holding all those. Her healing is also quite intricate and using all 5 powers, so either she has special strength in spirit (which I would discount based on her lack of shown ability in shielding, but maybe) or Nynaeve, too, can split her weaves an awful lot of ways.

 

So I don't see clear evidence; I see evidence of Nynaeve practicing duels with Talaan and having been in other duels. She lost against Talaan, but then Rand being unable to beat Lan in TGH doesn't mean he couldn't beat Toram Riatin a few books later, especially as it prominently showed practice.

 

And as Luckers said, WHEN Nynaeve gets around to practicing something else than Healing, she does learn quick. Not quick enough to beat Talaan apparently, but to beat Egwene who is much weaker and who has no skill in duelling that we have seen? (she might have learned as a matter of normal AS or Damane training, I suppose)

[Suttree]

was nyn trying to shield the sea folk gal, or as she just playing defense? I thought she was just defense..

 

No, it was a duel in which they were going after each other. The quotes have been provided in this thread.

[Knivy]

with no offensive attempts from nyn...

[Entreri]

Combat and practice are entirely two different things. Almost nobody goes all out in practice and there is no fear of death.

 

In actual wars, soliders have abonded posts or have not engaged the enemy. In combat sports, you see promising fighters lose it all once adversity sets in...fighters have been quoted as saying fighting is 90-100% mental.

 

If Nyaneve and Talaan went at it for real, 10/10 times Nyaneve beats her. Talaan is a soft girl. Likely Egwene will beat her, even without balefire. I seriously doubt Talaan knows more than a handful of combat weaves.

[Entreri]

Nynaeve perhaps is the most skilled OP user on the Light side:

 

Towers of Midnight, TAR meeting between the 3:

 

"Nynaeve and Elayne watched her make the weaves, Elayne looking awed, though Nynaeve nodded thoughfully to herself".

 

Nyaneve was clearly not impressed with Egwene's skills, implying she can do better.

 

As for the testing weaves:

 

Egwene: "Nynaeve, these are very complex weaves." Nyaneve: "The hundred testing weaves aren't so bad".

 

Testing weaves are nothing to Nyaneve, child's play.

 

OP strength Nyaneve >> Egwene, OP skill level, Nyaneve > Egwene. Egwene likely has the dexterity bonus. Elayne is far behind.

[Suttree]

with no offensive attempts from nyn...

 

Why on earth would you say this again after I directed you to the quotes? They were both trying to shield each other and Nynaeve won the first duel.

 

WH

She struck out again, but this time Talaan's flow of Spirit met hers much more lightly than she expected, and her own flow swept the other further aside than she had meant.

 

Nynaeve perhaps is the most skilled OP user on the Light side:

 

Towers of Midnight, TAR meeting between the 3:

 

"Nynaeve and Elayne watched her make the weaves, Elayne looking awed, though Nynaeve nodded thoughfully to herself".

 

Nyaneve was clearly not impressed with Egwene's skills, implying she can do better.

 

As for the testing weaves:

 

Egwene: "Nynaeve, these are very complex weaves." Nyaneve: "The hundred testing weaves aren't so bad".

 

Testing weaves are nothing to Nyaneve, child's play.

 

OP strength Nyaneve >> Egwene, OP skill level, Nyaneve > Egwene. Egwene likely has the dexterity bonus. Elayne is far behind.

 

That is a massive assumption on both parts and nothing in the entirety of the series supports your opinion here. Claiming her to be the most "skilled" on the light side is actually far enough off to be laughable. Nyn can copy things well and she is nodding because she is studying what Egwene was doing. Egwene was doing something that is beyond her "dismal" ability in everything besides healing.

 

As for the second part it has been explained numerous time in thread, all she did was memorize the weaves. She certainly didn't do it for an interest in gaining skill and as such learned nothing in the process aside from the weave itself. That does not increase your skill level. The overwhelming amount of evidence in text shows Egwene has the greater knowledge, skill and dexterity.

 

If Nyaneve and Talaan went at it for real, 10/10 times Nyaneve beats her. Talaan is a soft girl. Likely Egwene will beat her, even without balefire. I seriously doubt Talaan knows more than a handful of combat weaves.

 

Nyn got straight up schooled in that confrontation. It happened precisely because of her lack of dexterity. Nice to see with the claim that Eggy would beat Talaan you have given over too much emphasis placed on strength however.

[Knivy]

I read that as striking at the shield/whatever flows she had prepared already. If youre right, then Nyn wasnt really trying at all...

[Durinax]

Nyn got straight up schooled in that confrontation. It happened precisely because of her lack of dexterity. Nice to see with the claim that Eggy would beat Talaan you have given over too much emphasis placed on strength however.

I wouldn't say that it was dexterity, I would say that Talaans finesse is what won that one, she is the first one we see adjust the strength of weaves to produce feints. Something Egwene has not demonstrated thus we cannot say she has the same ability. It is interesting Talaans style was more like the sword forms than the rest of the channellers method of channelling.

 

but anyways I would say that it is finesse, not dexterity that won it for Talaan, because we did not see her use multiple weaves until after Nyn was shielded, she merely changed the strength of her own, and the direction in order to be effective. although it should be noted that Nyn did not attack, she was more in the reactive seat.

[Suttree]

Nyn got straight up schooled in that confrontation. It happened precisely because of her lack of dexterity. Nice to see with the claim that Eggy would beat Talaan you have given over too much emphasis placed on strength however.

I wouldn't say that it was dexterity, I would say that Talaans finesse is what won that one, she is the first one we see adjust the strength of weaves to produce feints. Something Egwene has not demonstrated thus we cannot say she has the same ability. It is interesting Talaans style was more like the sword forms than the rest of the channellers method of channelling.

 

but anyways I would say that it is finesse, not dexterity that won it for Talaan, because we did not see her use multiple weaves until after Nyn was shielded, she merely changed the strength of her own, and the direction in order to be effective. although it should be noted that Nyn did not attack, she was more in the reactive seat.

 

I'm sorry but at this point people are just ignoring what is written. We do in fact see her use multiple weaves...

 

WH

She struck out again, but this time Talaan's flow of Spirit met hers much more lightly than she expected, and her own flow swept the other further aside than she had meant. Abruptly six weaves of Air shot out from the girl, darting toward Nynaeve, and Nynaeve quickly sliced them with Fire.

 

Her agility(read dexterity) is commented on by Nyanaeve...

 

WH

Very neatly done, if Nynaeve did think so herself. The girl was very agile, very deft with her weaves.

 

Also we see Nynaeve try to match Talaan's dexterity and fail precisely because Talaan is much better at it than her....

 

WH

She was ready for the girl's trick this time. Channeling, she met Talaan's weave more dexterously, and without so much force. The girl smiled at her uncertainly. Thinking Nynaeve would not be distracted by extraneous flows of Air this time, was she? Talaan's weave began to curl around hers, and she nimbly spun her own to catch it. She would be ready when the woman produced her flows of Air. Or maybe not Air, this time. Nothing dangerous surely. This was practice. Only, Talaan's flow of Spirit did not complete that curl, and Nynaeve's swung wide while Talaan's struck straight at her and latched on. Once again, saidar winked out of her, and bonds of Air snapped her arms to her sides, fastened her knees.

 

@Knivy seriously just go reread it. She shielded Talaan the first time they dueled. She was not just being defensive and there is absolutely nothing to indicate she wasn't trying. Give over already.

[driedraspberry]

As an aside, who ever said their match would look like Lanfear v. Alivia? That fight was used as one example of many(much as the Talaan/Nynaeve duel) to show dexterity over strength.

 

Well, tbh I think it's a poor example. There were many factors to account for Cyndane coming out on top, experience in dueling and general knowledge of OP use being the two most important imo, so it's not a particularly good way to evaluate how much dexterity can compensate for difference in power.

 

If there is no limit to how much dexterity can overcome strength in the OP (as the arguments about Talaan seem to suggest), and Egwene is so incredibly dexterous, shouldn't she be able to overcome every male forsaken on her own? And Rand too? Men are less dexterous than women in general after all. In fact, Forsaken who are the most knowledgeable in terms of OP usage would be much more concerned about a person's dexterity than their OP strength. And Rahvin would be terrified of Moghedien etc.

 

And if there is a limit to how much dexterity can be used to compensate for OP strength, then I've yet to see evidence that would suggest three power levels can be overcome between a pair such as Nyn/Egwene.

[Suttree]

As an aside, who ever said their match would look like Lanfear v. Alivia? That fight was used as one example of many(much as the Talaan/Nynaeve duel) to show dexterity over strength.

 

Well, tbh I think it's a poor example. There were many factors to account for Cyndane coming out on top, experience in dueling and general knowledge of OP use being the two most important imo, so it's not a particularly good way to evaluate how much dexterity can compensate for difference in power.

 

If there is no limit to how much dexterity can overcome strength in the OP (as the arguments about Talaan seem to suggest, OP strength not being a factor etc.), and Egwene is so incredibly dexterous, shouldn't she be able to overcome every male forsaken on her own? And Rand too? Men are less dexterous than women in general after all. In fact, Forsaken who are much more knowledgeable in terms of OP usage would be much more concerned about a person's dexterity than their OP strength. Like Rahvin would be terrified of Moghedien etc.

 

It's not a poor example, especially given the fact that Alivia had a paralis-net so Cyndane's skill, knowledge and dexterity were even more important to the outcome.

 

As for the rest no one has ever suggested there is no limit to how much dexterity can overcome strength. Per RJ however...

Interview: Nov 4th, 2005

 

KOD Signing Report - Karana Majin (Paraphrased)

Karana Majin

 

At one point, Lanfear reflects that she was about as powerful as it was possible to be. Is there an upper limit to human channeling ability, some sort of asymptote that channelers approach but never pass beyond?

Robert Jordan

 

Yes, there is an upper limit. In terms of the channeling of raw amounts of the One Power, men can handle more than women. However, women are much more dextrous in their ability to use the One Power, so for all intents and purposes, they are equal in their abilities to do and create weaves and are mostly equal to each other.

 

So we see quite clearly that dexterity makes up for strength, especially given the fact that they are only three levels a part if Linda's ranking is correct(then you add in the knowledge and skill advantage). That of course would have no bearing on an upper level male forsaken who is much stronger than Egwene and more skilled.

 

As for evidence much has been provided for our side of the debate. What has not been provided in the slightest is evidence saying strength is the end all quality needed to win a duel.

[driedraspberry]

It's not a poor example, especially given the fact that Alivia had a paralis-net so Cyndane's skill, knowledge and dexterity were even more important to the outcome.

 

As for the rest no one has ever suggested there is no limit to how much dexterity can overcome strength. Per RJ however...

Interview: Nov 4th, 2005

 

KOD Signing Report - Karana Majin (Paraphrased)

Karana Majin

 

At one point, Lanfear reflects that she was about as powerful as it was possible to be. Is there an upper limit to human channeling ability, some sort of asymptote that channelers approach but never pass beyond?

Robert Jordan

 

Yes, there is an upper limit. In terms of the channeling of raw amounts of the One Power, men can handle more than women. However, women are much more dextrous in their ability to use the One Power, so for all intents and purposes, they are equal in their abilities to do and create weaves and are mostly equal to each other.

 

So we see quite clearly that dexterity makes up for strength, especially given the fact that they are only three levels a part if Linda's ranking is correct(then you add in the knowledge and skill advantage). That of course would have no bearing on an upper level male forsaken who is much stronger than Egwene and more skilled.

 

As for evidence much has been provided for our side of the debate. What has not been provided in the slightest is evidence saying strength is the end all quality needed to win a duel.

 

I agree that strength isn't the end all, there is evidence there. Their attributes differ at certain aspects, but aren't so hugely different outside of dexterity and OP strength. Overall, you say they differ by only three levels, but that seems like a large difference to me. Do we know how many more levels men reach over women on average? If the increase in power levels is exponential than the difference between Nyn and Egwene would be much greater than that of an average male/female channeler that vary by 3 levels.

[Cybertrolloc]

Suttree and Luckers, you're making the classic TLand mistake: there's more going on than the passage you quote.

 

Hints

 

What was Ny doing for the hour(s) prior to Talaan winning? How much sleep had she been getting lately? etc...

 

 

Poll as now worded...I can see it going either way. Depends on what's situationally useful, what Eg was able to wring out of Mog...probably plenty of circumstances where one would do better than the other...

[BFG]

EDIT: really long response - proceed with caution

 

Actually this isn't correct. From KoD: "Bennae's eyes were blue and sharp, her dark hair, caught in a silver net, liberally streaked with gray. Ink stains marked two of her fingers, and another smudged the side of her nose. She held a porcelain cup of tea, but she had not offered any to Egwene. "I think there is little of the Power that remains for you to learn, child.""

 

Compare that with Cadsuane's evaluation of Nynaeve, that her ability with healing is miraculous, her skill with anything else dismal.

 

This all fits. Nynaeve has the raw ability to be brilliant, she just resists it except within the capacity that she chooses. Egwene also has the raw ability to be brilliant, she's embraced it--sought it at every turn. Time and again Nynaeve's recalcitrance vs. Egwene's thirst for knowledge has been made clear. And it shows.

 

This. Great call Luckers, no way to argue with that.

 

Actually, it is - although I'll leave it open to debate as to how good the argument is :)

 

First I'm going to question Bennaes judgement - from how I read the text it's based off a couple of hours (at most) of testing weaves, she also adds in: to paraphrase "especially considering your innovations" Egwene then thinks that some of the new weaves were hers, which to me implies that most were Moggys. So Bennae's making her judgement off incomplete information and assuming that Eg has made more inventions than she really was. Based on the fact that Nyn can repeat anything having seen it once, then I'd be very surprised if she wouldn't pass the same sort of test. Indeed after Eg raises Elayne and Nyn to AS then the only objection that the other AS have is that she has a block, not because she isn't skilled enough or knows enough.

 

Second I'm going to question Cads opinion (shock, horror - I know). Based on the fact that Nyn hasn't yet failed at a weave, she's been shown to be more innovative than most other channelers - and not only in healing, she found out how to do balefire for herself, healing madness is different to healing. Most of her discoveries appear to be because of an innate understanding of how the OP works. Additionally, Cads opinion of most (not all, but most) other AS seems fairly low, which means that Nyn can be as skilled as almost all AS and still not impress Cads. Additionally I always viewed Cads opinion of Nyn (in general) to be because Nyn hasn't learned the lesson that Cads seems to think the most important - that what must be endured, can be endured. Eg has demonstrated this lesson when a captive of the Tower, and to a lesser extent in her battle against Mesaana, so Cads will likely have a higher opinion of Eg than of Nyn, but this doesn't say anything about Nyns ability with weaves.

 

Third - since WH, even if Cads was talking about weaves (which as I've said, I doubt with no textural evidence to back it up - can you show me one weave that she can't do?) then she's improved her knowledge since then.

 

I don't know Lukers and Suttree, I think you are down playing strength to much in a one on one duel. Dexterity and skill come into play when the battle field is more or less even, and if the "candle vs bonfire" comment Moirene makes is any indication then no matter how skilled Egwene is she's going to lose going head to head with Nynaeve. Its only 3 levels of difference but if the Black Ajah sisters couldn't link and overcome Moggy (which i assume 2 or 3 of them together had to at least match Egwene's strength) then a couple of levels are apparently a big deal.

 

This has already shown to not be true in the Alivia/Cyndane show down. Alivia was more powerful AND had the paralis-net that stopped flows. People keep stating strength makes a huge difference in duels but have given zero support from the text to back it up.

 

 

Nynaeve glanced at the figurine at his side. The globe at the top glowed faintly. "Rand...."

"I'm only holding a little extra, as a precaution." The more of the One Power a person held, the more difficult it was to shield them. If the damane tried to capture him, they would be shocked by his resilience. He might be able to resist a full circle.

 

I just grabbed this from general questions.

 

The point is that in a shielding duel, Eg may be able to strike Nyn, but she's going to struggle to actually succeed in shielding her. This is why strength matters in the duel against Talaan - her dexterity allows her to strike quicker, but it's her strength that allows the shield to slide into place that quickly. The duel between Rand and Lanfear in the Stone, shows that their is time between the shield hitting and sliding into place for the one attacked to strike back - in this case it's complicated, I think Rand is stronger - but he may not be as he's not been channeling long, Lanfear has more experience, but Rand has LTT's 'instinct' (not sure of the right word here), and neither of them are trying very hard. But say Eg strikes Nyn, but doesn't have the strength to overwhelm her, Nyn now has Eg, effectively staying in one place, meaning she no longer needs to worry about dexterity, she can just swat Eg away.

 

]Alivia vs. Cyndane:

 

That was Lanfear, possibly the most knowledgeable and skilled of all the females and yet, she is the one who retreated.

 

Alivia is all offense with little or no defensive skills. Someone like Lanfear would know how to get by that foxhead Alivia had or anything else.

 

Bear in mind that Asha'man captured Alivia, Asha'man who would have no more than 1-2 years of training! Alivia has been training to be a weapon for around 400 years!

 

Damane are also taught defensive skills. The real difference between Alivia and Cyndane is experience. Alivia only has 400 years of watching other people channel using her strength. She's only been channeling herself for a few weeks/months. She knows the weaves, from watching the others, but hasn't woven them until recently.

 

Does it help if I say I like Nynaeve better than Egwene?

 

Helps a lot

 

with no offensive attempts from nyn...

 

Why on earth would you say this again after I directed you to the quotes? They were both trying to shield each other and Nynaeve won the first duel.

 

WH

She struck out again, but this time Talaan's flow of Spirit met hers much more lightly than she expected, and her own flow swept the other further aside than she had meant.

 

Nynaeve perhaps is the most skilled OP user on the Light side:

 

Towers of Midnight, TAR meeting between the 3:

 

"Nynaeve and Elayne watched her make the weaves, Elayne looking awed, though Nynaeve nodded thoughfully to herself".

 

Nyaneve was clearly not impressed with Egwene's skills, implying she can do better.

 

As for the testing weaves:

 

Egwene: "Nynaeve, these are very complex weaves." Nyaneve: "The hundred testing weaves aren't so bad".

 

Testing weaves are nothing to Nyaneve, child's play.

 

OP strength Nyaneve >> Egwene, OP skill level, Nyaneve > Egwene. Egwene likely has the dexterity bonus. Elayne is far behind.

 

That is a massive assumption on both parts and nothing in the entirety of the series supports your opinion here. Claiming her to be the most "skilled" on the light side is actually far enough off to be laughable. Nyn can copy things well and she is nodding because she is studying what Egwene was doing. Egwene was doing something that is beyond her "dismal" ability in everything besides healing.

 

As for the second part it has been explained numerous time in thread, all she did was memorize the weaves. She certainly didn't do it for an interest in gaining skill and as such learned nothing in the process aside from the weave itself. That does not increase your skill level. The overwhelming amount of evidence in text shows Egwene has the greater knowledge, skill and dexterity.

 

If Nyaneve and Talaan went at it for real, 10/10 times Nyaneve beats her. Talaan is a soft girl. Likely Egwene will beat her, even without balefire. I seriously doubt Talaan knows more than a handful of combat weaves.

 

Nyn got straight up schooled in that confrontation. It happened precisely because of her lack of dexterity. Nice to see with the claim that Eggy would beat Talaan you have given over too much emphasis placed on strength however.

 

There's absolutely nothing in text that backs that up - other than one off-hand quote from Cads, which I question, to demonstrate that Nyn wouldn't be able to copy the weave. Everything in text has said that Nyn can see something once and repeat it. The quote about the weaves for the test backs this up. Eg demonstrates a complex weave. She says the weaves needed for the test are complex. Nyn can do the complex weaves for the test having seen them once, you have said that she can repeat weaves easily, so I have no idea why you're saying that Nyn can't repeat the weave Eg shows?

 

Since all AS have done for a very long time is memorise and copy weaves, I'm not sure why you dismiss this as not showing skill - additionally she's shown innovation beyond just healing. Yes her innovations tend to things that she's talented at, as do Eg's - cuendillar suits people strong in earth/fire. She hasn't yet seen a weave she couldn't copy - and as I said that's what AS do.

 

Additionally, Nyn has more experience dualling than Eg - unless it was part of her damane training and happened offscreen.

 

I'm pretty sure that in AoL circles try to balance out the strenth in powers, as the more even these levels are the better the work done. I'm also pretty sure that Nyn is thought to be equally strong in all 5 powers, whereas Eg is strong in fire and earth - not sure if this is relevant to battles, but if so gives Nyn the edge. If it's not relevant than Eg may have the edge as fire/earth are traditionally used in battle.

 

You keep brushing past the test - during the test itself she shows innovation on using different weaves. Nyn has developed a lot since WH.

 

Finally, I'm not suggesting that dexterity isn't important. But I understand that generally speaking there are 3 power levels between Eg and Nyn(?) - that's the same difference between Morgase and the lowest AS (I think - I understand that level 3 is the lowest an AS can be?) - so clearly 3 power levels means a lot. I don't think you've demonstrated that Eg is so much more dextrous to make up the difference. (I'm also not saying that it's impossible for dexterity and knowledge to make up the difference, and bigger differences, but I don't think the dexterity difference between them is there yet)

 

 

EDIT: I suspect that if they were to fight 10 times, Nyn would win about 7 and Eg the rest. Eg can win, it's just I think it more likely that Nyn will.

[BFG]

All that the text has said is that 13 of the weakest Aes Sedai match even the strongest male channeller unaided. Which is reasonable. 13 weak Aes Sedai add up to 1 strong man, simple enough. Everyone who has said this mentions nothing about sa/angreal, and the Aes Sedai don't even know of male angreal (besides callandor which was virtually non-existent until Rand took it)

 

It is also established that the more Power one is holding, the harder it is to Shield them. Example, Rand easily Shielded Elayne and Egwene, despite them holding the power because of the overwhelming strength difference at the time. Several OP battles involved this, I think it is common enough knowledge not to have to point to other specific references. Again, reasonable conclusion.

 

Sa'/angreal increase the amount of Power one is able to draw upon. The Fat Man allowed Rand to overpower Asmodean when they grappled over the Chodean Kal. Rand, with the Chodean Kal, could Shield 1000 Aes Sedai with ease because he held so much of the OP.

 

The reasonable conclusion, along with Yoniy0's other evidence is that, when drawing from a sa'angreal like Callandor, the Power required to Shield a man is increased 100 fold, since his power level has increased proportionately. Which would mean that it would take a greater power than 13 weak Aes Sedai linked. Since effectively the 1 strong man is now comparable to 100 with Callandor.

 

Strength is in fact the key to Shielding. A stronger channeler can overpower a weaker one, while the weaker one cannot do so without some kind of trick. Shielding revolves almost entirely around strength proportions. To say that strength does not in fact matter in this case goes against the very principle of Shielding itself.

...

 

I've reposted this here as it relates directly to One Power shielding, which we've been talking about (although the focus of that debate is different).

 

Obviously this doesn't talk about other combat abilities, but if Nyn was to put most of her strength into shielding Eg then Eg would have to use all her strength to counter. Nyn would still have strength left over to e.g. use a club of air to knock her out.

 

The only way for Eg to win would be to either get a decisive blow in early, or hide a lot and strike from shadows - their's nothing that stops Nyn from doing either of these things to. As I said, Eg could win, but the advantage lies with Nyn. Nyn is aware of her strength advantage - I don't think she's stupid enough to ignore it.

[Barid Bel Medar]

All that the text has said is that 13 of the weakest Aes Sedai match even the strongest male channeller unaided. Which is reasonable. 13 weak Aes Sedai add up to 1 strong man, simple enough. Everyone who has said this mentions nothing about sa/angreal, and the Aes Sedai don't even know of male angreal (besides callandor which was virtually non-existent until Rand took it)

 

It is also established that the more Power one is holding, the harder it is to Shield them. Example, Rand easily Shielded Elayne and Egwene, despite them holding the power because of the overwhelming strength difference at the time. Several OP battles involved this, I think it is common enough knowledge not to have to point to other specific references. Again, reasonable conclusion.

 

Sa'/angreal increase the amount of Power one is able to draw upon. The Fat Man allowed Rand to overpower Asmodean when they grappled over the Chodean Kal. Rand, with the Chodean Kal, could Shield 1000 Aes Sedai with ease because he held so much of the OP.

 

The reasonable conclusion, along with Yoniy0's other evidence is that, when drawing from a sa'angreal like Callandor, the Power required to Shield a man is increased 100 fold, since his power level has increased proportionately. Which would mean that it would take a greater power than 13 weak Aes Sedai linked. Since effectively the 1 strong man is now comparable to 100 with Callandor.

 

Strength is in fact the key to Shielding. A stronger channeler can overpower a weaker one, while the weaker one cannot do so without some kind of trick. Shielding revolves almost entirely around strength proportions. To say that strength does not in fact matter in this case goes against the very principle of Shielding itself.

...

 

I've reposted this here as it relates directly to One Power shielding, which we've been talking about (although the focus of that debate is different).

 

Obviously this doesn't talk about other combat abilities, but if Nyn was to put most of her strength into shielding Eg then Eg would have to use all her strength to counter. Nyn would still have strength left over to e.g. use a club of air to knock her out.

 

The only way for Eg to win would be to either get a decisive blow in early, or hide a lot and strike from shadows - their's nothing that stops Nyn from doing either of these things to. As I said, Eg could win, but the advantage lies with Nyn. Nyn is aware of her strength advantage - I don't think she's stupid enough to ignore it.

 

 

Just to clarify what BFG said, my that post was made with a very different situation in mind. Not a 1v1 scenario. It was posted in counter to the assertion that 13 of the weakest linked women could shield a man in any situation, even if they were using Callandor or the Chodean Kal.

 

It is possible for a weaker channeller to Shield a stronger one, if they use tricks, that is demonstrated with the Taalan scene.

 

In any case, this topic wasn't what my post was addressing in terms of the Shielding part. I was talking about immense power differences here, not relatively smaller ones. Nynaeve with the Chodean Kal would be basically unshield-able. But the topic is with no aid.

 

My point was that it would require much more power than a circle of 13 to Shield someone wielding the Power of Callandor or the Chodean Kal. The immensity of the Power that they are holding can't be countered with tricks.

 

The comment about Power was a simplification which does not necessarily apply to this debate, as the Strength levels in question are a lot different from Chodean Kal/Callandor proportions. It also does not address the various tricks that could be used, since the assertion was that 13 of the weakest Aes Sedai could overpower a man with Callandor. Certainly, they could defeat or kill that man, but it is impossible to overpower and Shield them.

 

On Topic: Also, even if Egwene managed to Shield Nynaeve, she may not be able to maintain it. Taalan was only able to hold Nynaeve's Shield because she is just as strong. A weaker woman would not be able to hold her.

 

It requires strength to maintain a Shield, it was demonstrated in a way with the Kinswoman with a Talent for Shields. Nynaeve should have been able to break the Shield because of the strength difference, but it was the Talent that made it possible.

 

I am not that there is a strength/Shield ratio, so it could be that Egwene would be strong enough to maintain a Shield on Nynaeve, but the point being, just because someone is Shielded, it isn't end game. Moiraine could technically Shield Lanfear if she used enough tricks, but she could never maintain that Shield, as Lanfear would be able to break through via Strength.

 

In any case, there really isn't much point in this debate. Both Egwene and Nynaeve could win in various scenarios. I would say that they are equal in the potential skills.

 

Egwene is much more battle-oriented, but less experienced with duelling.

 

It all depends on the situation. The weakest woman could kill the strongest in the right circumstance. Just as the most clumsy weaver could kill the most dexterous.

 

So for me, I would take Egwene on a mission to destroy Shadowspawn, I would take Nynaeve on a mission to kill/capture one of the Forsaken.

[BFG]

^sounds good - sorry I used your post, but it did seem to touch on this subject (that strength does sometimes matter in duelling), I should have probably highlighted the points I thought important in order to make it clear.

 

I don't think the strength difference is enough that Eg wouldn't maintain a shield, but I think it is enough to make it harder for her to shield her in the first place.

[Barid Bel Medar]

No problems, it is related, I just wanted to give a bit more context, since some parts don't really apply.

 

It would be interesting to see what the Power/Shield upkeep ratio is though.

[OptimusPrime]

Strength is more important in a fight, but Talents and dexterity matter for other things.

 

If it was as simple as that, Cyndane would have literally had her ass handed to her at the Cleansing. Yet despite being considerably weaker, she beats Alivia. Due to superior knowledge. so strength was of zero importance to that fight.

 

Same goes for Rand vs Rahvin. Despite being on similar levels Rahvin was wiping the floor with him. Because he knew more about the One Power than Rand.

 

Well that's as close to a concession as Nightstrike gets. I'll take that and run. G'night guys.

 

Dont pretend you dont love every second of it James!

[avernite]

Strength is more important in a fight, but Talents and dexterity matter for other things.

 

If it was as simple as that, Cyndane would have literally had her ass handed to her at the Cleansing. Yet despite being considerably weaker, she beats Alivia. Due to superior knowledge. so strength was of zero importance to that fight.

 

Same goes for Rand vs Rahvin. Despite being on similar levels Rahvin was wiping the floor with him. Because he knew more about the One Power than Rand.

 

 

Actually Rand vs Rahvin seemed to showcase the opposite point. Rahvin was generally better, but he figured Rand's strength was risky so he moved to T'a'R where strength in the power is nearly useless. Of course the more skilled person is wiping the floor with someone less skilled in a situation where strength is essentially irrelevant. If Egwene fought Nynaeve in TAR she would sweep her under the rug.

 

Aside from that: how do we even know Egwene is so amazingly more dextrous than Nynaeve? Talaan clearly is, at least in those duels, but what does Egwene show? She blows stuff up?

[Viperswhip]

I doubt too many of the Forsaken actually got all scrappy with the power. They seem more like Generals or managers. Alivia probably has far more experience fighting, it sounds like there are fights between lords, not rebellions but infighting amongst the noble families. Either way, she's as old as Lanfear is and probably has a similar level of combat experience.

 

I would go for Nynaeve, I think we saw during her test just how awesome she is when it is for real.

[Suttree]

I doubt too many of the Forsaken actually got all scrappy with the power. They seem more like Generals or managers. Alivia probably has far more experience fighting, it sounds like there are fights between lords, not rebellions but infighting amongst the noble families. Either way, she's as old as Lanfear is and probably has a similar level of combat experience.

 

We do know there are rebellions actually. Karede speaks of putting down "numerous" rebellions during his time with the DW guards and we have Seekers speaking of "sedition" in certain districts.

 

Talaan clearly is, at least in those duels, but what does Egwene show? She blows stuff up?

 

Here dexterity is referenced many times throughout the series. Here in KoD for instance, this was an incredible accomplishment given how many times she splits her flows and that she was under the influence of forkroot. She is also able to keep it going despite being beaten.

KoD

Instead, she channeled Fire and Air to produce a small ball of green fire that floated in front of her. A pale, pitiful thing it was, actually transparent.

“Very good,” Idrelle said sarcastically. All, yes. She had just wanted to begin by showing the novices how weak Egwene’s channeling was. “Release saidar. Now, class-”

Egwene added a blue ball, then a brown, and a gray, making them spin around one another.

“Release the Source!” Idrelle said brusquely.

A yellow ball joined the others, a white, and finally, a red ball. Quickly she added rings of fire one inside the other around the whirling balls. Red came first this time, because she wanted it smallest, green last and largest. Had she been able to choose an Ajah, it would have been the Green. Seven rings of fire rotated, no two in the same direction, around seven balls of fire that carried out an intricate dance at the heart. Pale and thin they might be, yet it was an impressive display beyond dividing her flows fourteen ways. Juggling with the Power was not all that much easier than juggling with your hands.

“Stop that!” Idrelle shouted. “Stop it!” The glow of saidar enveloped the teacher, and a switch of Air struck Egwene hard across the back. “I said stop it!” The switch struck again, then again.

Egwene calmly kept the rings spinning, the balls dancing. After Silviana’s hard-swung slipper, it was easy to drink in the pain of Idrelle’s blows. If not to welcome it. Would she ever be able to smile while she was being beaten?

[avernite]

Well, jay, 14 flows.

 

I don't take that as a particularly strong sign; Nynaeve healed Naeff, and the text strongly implies there are a dozen if not dozens if pinpricks in his mind. Which Nynaeve all holds back, all the while healing whenever she pulled a new pin out his mind. Seems to show she clearly can also split flows 14 ways. Plus she overlays the 'compulsion' in his mind with a counterweave, but okay, that might be a reference to Nynaeves Talent for healing. But holding back little pointy things seems unlikely to be captured under the same Talent.

 

A point in favour, however, seems to be that Forkroot clearly doesn't preclude many-way splitting, so that implies strength need not be completely critical (although it also implies Forkroot reduces strength more than dexterity at weaving).

[Suttree]

A point in favour, however, seems to be that Forkroot clearly doesn't preclude many-way splitting, so that implies strength need not be completely critical (although it also implies Forkroot reduces strength more than dexterity at weaving).

 

We know it does both, that is part of what makes it so impressive.

 

edit: Wanted to add as well that we don't have enough about Nyn's method for removing the taint to draw the conclusions you make above.

[BFG]

Well, jay, 14 flows.

 

I don't take that as a particularly strong sign; Nynaeve healed Naeff, and the text strongly implies there are a dozen if not dozens if pinpricks in his mind. Which Nynaeve all holds back, all the while healing whenever she pulled a new pin out his mind. Seems to show she clearly can also split flows 14 ways. Plus she overlays the 'compulsion' in his mind with a counterweave, but okay, that might be a reference to Nynaeves Talent for healing. But holding back little pointy things seems unlikely to be captured under the same Talent.

 

A point in favour, however, seems to be that Forkroot clearly doesn't preclude many-way splitting, so that implies strength need not be completely critical (although it also implies Forkroot reduces strength more than dexterity at weaving).

 

My assumption, but I don't have any text proof for it, is that splitting your flows isn't directly related to the power, but you need a good (read very good) level of strength to practice it - i.e. many people can split their flows, but at some stage you stop being able to affect things - because Eg has been able to practice with lots of power she can then use less power to do the same thing (really not explaining it well, sorry).

 

But fire is one of Eg's strengths, we see Nyn doing equally impressive things with her strengths.