Combat Skills; Egwene vs. Nynaeve (no ter/sa angreal)

[sleepinghour]

I've never like how Cuendillar was rediscovered... it was to shockingly sudden and was never even mentioned that i could find until we see her having a bunch of AS and novices making it.  Still impressive that she discovered how to do it, but unlike Elayne with 'angreal its like she never tried it ever and then all the sudden Egwene was making Cuendillar like it was nothing.  I guess it always sat wrong with me

 

It was mentioned in CoT how Egwene rediscovered it, and she had some help from Moggy.

 

Egwene held her peace. For once, she felt no shame at being praised for one of her supposed discoveries. Unlike nearly everything else except Traveling, this one actually was hers, though Moghedien had pointed the way before she escaped. The woman did not know how to actually make anything—at least, she had not revealed any such knowledge however hard Egwene had pressed her, and she had pressed very hard—but Moghedien had a wide streak of greed, and even in the Age of Legends, cuendillar had been a prized luxury. She had known enough of how it was made for Egwene to puzzle out the rest.

[Suttree]

I stopped reading in page 4. I wanna say y'all are basing your entire argument around the words of Cads, a person known for being a jerk and harsh. Her calling Nys weaves dismal could just be in comparison to her skill at weaving, or heck her idea of how good she should believes Ny should be.

 

Vards, welcome back mate!

 

As Barid said you may want to read the rest of the thread. We have the RJ quote backing up what Cads said and tons of textual quotes included as well. Cheers.

[fionwe1987]

 

 

 

It should be noted that the RJ quote mentions PASSING the test. Not surviving it.

 

The books themselves show WHY Nynaeve nearly did not pass: because she trained her channelling, but didn't train 'being calm' which is also a part of Aes Sedai training, and one Egwene and Elayne are pretty good at (and which, in some situations, IS important). It's darn obvious that Nynaeve had not nearly as much trouble with the channeling part.

 

 

Nice try. However, RJ mentioned their current capabilities, and Nynaeve's specialized knowledge, neither of which have anything to do with keeping a straight face. 

 

 

 

Come now... the books show why Nynaeve did nearly fail. It was NOTHING to do with channeling, and EVERYTHING with composure. Which is a skill Aes Sedai highly value and train their students in. Hell, Rand specifically warns Nynaeve against becoming a typical calm Aes Sedai, showing that Rand, too, notices it's part of being Aes Sedai. The quotes from ToM, a choice:

 

"It is unimportant,"Barasine the Red said in a cold voice. "She failed the test." and a bit later "You failed, child,"Barasine said, regarding Nynaeve with an emotionless stare. "You did not show proper decorum."

Straight from the Aes Sedai involved, Nynaevew HAD trouble in passing the test. And why? Because she did now show proper decorum. Not because her channeling sucked, or she cursed them all for being mean or... no, it was decorum that nearly made her fail. And lo, we see one part of AS training that Nynaeve did not learn, ie. a too focused set of only some common Aes Sedai skills which excluded decorum.

 

Two things: this is a Brandon scene. RJ made it clear we would never see the Aes Sedai test in the books again. He didn't write this. The last time he spoke of their skills (after KoD was written), he said Nynaeve would have difficulty passing because she was too specialized. NOT because she was too temperamental, NOT because she couldn't keep a straight face.

 

Now, post this quote, Brandon had her learn the 100 weaves to be Aes Sedai. And that is all he showed her doing. He didn't show her reaching for all the other knowledge Aes Sedai have. He didn't show her being interested in expanding her general skill set. Then he had her take the test, where she passed because she had studied the 100 weaves well, and cleverly used them to defend herself at times, and the rest of the time used her brute strength against non-channeling foes well.

 

But he didn't tackle the issue of too much specialization that RJ said would make things tough for Nynaeve. And since he didn't address that, and that quote came straight from the horses mouth, I'm going to take RJ's word over Brandon's.

 

Now, for those insisting that because Nynaeve can do these weaves, she doesn't think they're complex:

 

 

"Here is the eighty-first weave," the White said. The glow of saidar sprang up around her, and she channeled, crafting a very complex weave of Fire, Air and Spirit. Complex, but useless. The weave created three burning rings of fire in the air which glowed with unusual light, but what was the point of that? Nynaeve already knew how to make fireballs and balls of light; why waste time learning weaves that repeated what she already knew, only in a far more complicated way? And why did each ring have to be a slightly different color? 

Nynaeve waved an indifferent hand, repeating the weave exactly.

 

By Nynaeve's own assessment, the weaves are needlessly complicated and entirely useless. What she could do with a simple weave of Fire and Air is now being done with a complex weave of Fire, Air and Spirit. Sure, Nynaeve can copy the weave with barely a thought. But what the hell is the point of that? She'd be a fool to use this in a battle instead of using actual fireballs that are simpler. The only time it made sense to use this was in the test, where she could make them enormous and throw them at Trollocs in Emond's Field because she was forced by the fricking test to use this weave.

 

That said, let's focus on the other side of this. The argument that since Egwene called them complex, she would find them tough to do. First of all, Nynaeve called them complex too. But more importantly, there is this:

 

"Excellent," Egwene said, absently weaving as complex a weave as Adelorna had ever seen. A line of light broke the air, then rotated around itself, creating a hole into blackness.  

 

Adelorna has seen all the 100 weaves for testing Accepted. She thinks Traveling is as complex a weave as she had ever seen. Ergo, Traveling is as complex as any of the 100 weaves. The only difference is that it is useful. But Egwene can weave this "absently", and she had no difficulty weaving it the first time, when she... invented it! I think that should put to rest any ridiculous claims that because Egwene called the weaves needlessly complex, she wouldn't be able to make them right away.

 

Re: elric.

 

Dude, I have a really hard time understanding what you're saying. At least try to use punctuation! I hope what I'm saying actually pertains to your questions, because I'm not certain, in some cases.

 

With regards to linking, you argue its because Nynaeve has difficulty surrendering. Except in the example I provided, Nynaeve was initiating the link, and Elayne was the one surrendering. Get the difference? Nynaeve's ability to surrender has nothing to do with initiating a link.

 

RJ's quote: he clearly says her difficulty in passing would be because of her specialization in channeling. Nothing at all about composure and serenity.

 

As for Egwene channeling: she has been channeling enough since becoming Amyrlin that two independent Sisters in the White Tower assess that she has pretty much learned all there is to learn about the OP from the Tower. She even impresses Suana with her Healing weaves, and we have ample evidence of how subpar they are.

 

When was Egwene in an OP duel? The Seanchan attack, of course. Sadly, in that instance, the issues are clouded by her having a sa'angreal and leading an immense circle. The other case was, I guess, against Lanfear, but there Egwene and Aviendha were toast before they even launched their first strike.

 

On the other hand, we've seen Nynaeve in 3 OP duels. In one, she was in an arm wrestling match against Moghedien, where she one because she went "low-tech". I give kudos to her for that, because it certainly shows she has fighting spirit, and the ability to think on her feet. The second time, she was facing two fairly weak Aes Sedai who were linked, and she couldn't beat them till two members of the Kin helped her. Frankly, this is an excellent argument against Nynaeve's dueling skill. Especially because the strongest of the 13 Black sisters, Liandrin, thought that it would take three of their number to defeat Moghedien. Yet, two of them were able to stalemate Nynaeve?

 

In the third OP duel, Nynaeve was handed her ass by Talaan. Talaan who was as strong as her, but showed greater dexterity.

 

In all three instances, Nynaeve has never shown herself to be deft in her weaving. She has tried to win by brute force, and more often than not, she has lost. Pretty poor track record, no?

 

And to your last point... yes, Egwene did think she could face Mesaana in the real world and succeed.

[BFG]

 

 

This is still going.   I am done, on a final note:

 

As for memorizing weaves, come now, Nyaneve has done several things that were thought impossible.

All in regards to healing which no one has disputed. Not sure how that helps your point however as everyone has acknowledged that and it has zero bearing on the topic at hand.

 

@BFG

 

You actually have made me come around a bit. But we must keep in mind it is not just dexterity. As Fionwe's quotes clearly show Nyn is fairly bad at that(see linking quote and others).  Again with something as basic as linking Nyn shows zero touch which backs up her getting schooled by Talaan...

 

 

It was not meant to be done hurriedly, either; Nynaeve did not have a soft touch, at best. Elayne felt as though she were being shaken; nothing happened physically, but inside her head she seemed to be bouncing around, tumbling wildly downhill. Worse, she was jostled toward embracing saidar with excruciating slowness.

 

The question is would Egwene's dexterity, knowledge and skill be enough to overcome the strength difference. I think yes but I am a bit closer to your side than I was at the start. You have made some very solid points.

Yours and others points have moved me closer to the middle as well, so thanks.

[avernite]

 

 

 

 

It should be noted that the RJ quote mentions PASSING the test. Not surviving it.

 

The books themselves show WHY Nynaeve nearly did not pass: because she trained her channelling, but didn't train 'being calm' which is also a part of Aes Sedai training, and one Egwene and Elayne are pretty good at (and which, in some situations, IS important). It's darn obvious that Nynaeve had not nearly as much trouble with the channeling part.

 

 

Nice try. However, RJ mentioned their current capabilities, and Nynaeve's specialized knowledge, neither of which have anything to do with keeping a straight face. 

 

 

 

Come now... the books show why Nynaeve did nearly fail. It was NOTHING to do with channeling, and EVERYTHING with composure. Which is a skill Aes Sedai highly value and train their students in. Hell, Rand specifically warns Nynaeve against becoming a typical calm Aes Sedai, showing that Rand, too, notices it's part of being Aes Sedai. The quotes from ToM, a choice:

 

"It is unimportant,"Barasine the Red said in a cold voice. "She failed the test." and a bit later "You failed, child,"Barasine said, regarding Nynaeve with an emotionless stare. "You did not show proper decorum."

Straight from the Aes Sedai involved, Nynaevew HAD trouble in passing the test. And why? Because she did now show proper decorum. Not because her channeling sucked, or she cursed them all for being mean or... no, it was decorum that nearly made her fail. And lo, we see one part of AS training that Nynaeve did not learn, ie. a too focused set of only some common Aes Sedai skills which excluded decorum.

 

Two things: this is a Brandon scene. RJ made it clear we would never see the Aes Sedai test in the books again. He didn't write this. The last time he spoke of their skills (after KoD was written), he said Nynaeve would have difficulty passing because she was too specialized. NOT because she was too temperamental, NOT because she couldn't keep a straight face.

 

Now, post this quote, Brandon had her learn the 100 weaves to be Aes Sedai. And that is all he showed her doing. He didn't show her reaching for all the other knowledge Aes Sedai have. He didn't show her being interested in expanding her general skill set. Then he had her take the test, where she passed because she had studied the 100 weaves well, and cleverly used them to defend herself at times, and the rest of the time used her brute strength against non-channeling foes well.

 

But he didn't tackle the issue of too much specialization that RJ said would make things tough for Nynaeve. And since he didn't address that, and that quote came straight from the horses mouth, I'm going to take RJ's word over Brandon's.

 

 

 

Specialization was Nynaeve's problem, but that's a rather broad category. Specialization in what? Learning only specific types of channeling counts, sure, but so does only learning the channelling Aes Sedai offer while skipping everything else. Now sure, it may be a Brandon quote; but, seeing as it was published and given that I have no list of who wrote what, I will consider it canon... and the book spells out WHY Nynaeve nearly failed.

 

And it was specialization... just specialization in the broader sense of not learning all Aes Sedai can offer, not in the sense of only learning specific weaves.

[sleepinghour]

Onto the actual topic... Firstly, in the unlikely event that Nynaeve and Egwene had to fight each other, I think Nynaeve would lose due to her emotional attachment to Egwene. She still sees Egwene as the kid she used to babysit, and would at most make a half-hearted attempt to shield Egwene. Egwene is far more ruthless and wouldn't hesitate to use weaves that might injure Nynaeve (exhibit A and B: TFoH, ToM).

 

If you just compare their respective strengths and skills, it becomes more interesting.

 

Much has been made of Cadsuane's comment that Nynaeve's abilities with anything other than Healing were "dismal," yet Cadsuane made this comment in Far Madding shortly after meeting Nynaeve. At that point, the only time she would have been able to observe any sort of channeling from Nynaeve would have been the one time they rode out with Min and Alivia. Cadsuane and her posse don't even seem aware that Nynaeve's healed stilling; Corele's still trying to learn the new form of Healing from Flinn in CoT.

 

Of course, Nynaeve herself says in WH that:
 

Often [the Sea Folk] wanted her to teach things she did not know as well as others—too often, things she barely knew at all, she admitted reluctantly; she had not really had much training in the Tower...

 

...but not knowing common AS weaves (which aren't very likely to be battle-oriented) isn't the same as being bad at fighting. In fact, we have several quotes about Nynaeve and Elayne squeezing some very nasty weaves out of Moghedien.

 

“That’s as may be,” Nynaeve replied sharply, shifting her shawl. “And maybe we know more than you think we do.” She would not mind demonstrating a few of the weaves she had learned from Moghedien for this woman. Including a few they had all agreed were too nasty to do to anyone. Except . . . She was fairly certain the other woman could overpower her easily, whatever she did.

Yet Nynaeve thinks Alivia could overpower her easily, presumably because of the strength difference. Alivia's at least one level above Nynaeve; probably two since she's said to be "considerably" stronger. There is also at least one level between Nynaeve and Egwene/Elayne—Moghedien's level.

 

As for Egwene, she was held captive by the Seanchan for less than two months in TGH. We've never seen any great variation of damane battle weaves from her beyond (as she describes below) making the earth erupt and exploding things. She did that both in TGH against Seanchan soldiers and in TDR against the Whitecloaks. The Seanchan were far more interested in her ability to find ore.

 

“When I picked out those rocks, [Renna] took me outside the town, and I was able to point right to an abandoned iron mine. It was all overgrown, and there wasn’t any opening to be seen at all, but once I knew how, I could feel the iron ore still in the ground." [...]

“Apparently,” [Egwene] said bitterly, “I am now too valuable to be wasted making things explode. Any damane can do that; only a handful can find ores in the ground. Light, I hate making things explode, but I wish that was all I could do.”

The color in her cheeks deepened. She did hate it, making trees tear themselves to splinters and the earth erupt; that was meant for battle, for killing, and she wanted no part of it. Yet anything the Seanchan let her do was another chance to touch saidar, to feel the Power flowing through her. She hated the things Renna and the other sul’dam made her do, but she was sure that she could handle much more of the Power now than she could before leaving Tar Valon.

 

In TDR, Egwene surprised Joiya in T'A'R and shielded her before Joiya even had a chance to channel at Egwene. Amico was asleep when Egwene stilled her. In TGS she was using the Tower's most powerful sa'angreal and essentially shooting fish in a barrel. The fight with Mesaana didn't involve the OP at all. I'm not saying Egwene would suck at OP duels, but she has very little experience fighting other channelers, let alone anyone even nearly as strong as she. There's a reason why the Mesaana fight ended up being in the one place where Egwene could equal one of the Forsaken: T'A'R.

[Thrasymachus]

I voted for Egwene because in a fight, strength matters far less than ability, and Egwene's ability in all aspects of channeling far exceeds Nynaeve's in every area except for Healing.  Leaving aside Healing weaves, Egwene can do any weave Nynaeve can do, and probably do it faster and while doing other things.  The only thing Nynaeve can do is make her weaves bigger, and potentially try to overwhelm Egwene with her strength, but Egwene's a pretty competent fighter, she was trained by the Seanchan, so she'll know both how to attack and defend herself against other channelers, and will be better able to, for lack of a better word, divert or avoid Nynaeve's attempts to overwhelm her with her superior strength.

 

It would be a close thing, though, Nynaeve's not totally incompetent.  I think it's easy to see why the Yellows would only be interested in getting Nynaeve to teach them her Healing, because it's both more effective, and more nuanced and finnicky than the battle-field Spirit/Water Healing the Yellows are used to.  That is to say that any given weave is capable of being modified, some things added, some removed, to achieve various additional effects or to restrict effects.  At least part of what she's teaching would be those variations, what to add, and why, and what to remove, and why.  Aside from her 5-Powers Healing weaves, she's also got her Stilling-Healing weaves, and there might be interest in research further with those to see if they can Heal burning-out too, or to see if they can overcome the cross-gender limitation.

[Nightstrike]

"In all aspects"? What's the basis for saying anything like that? I really don't understand why people keep saying that. Egwene hasn't fought any impressive OP duels. She's killed a few raken, but that's the best we've seen, and it doesn't say anything of how she would fare in a duel against someone much stronger.

[Suttree]

"In all aspects"? What's the basis for saying anything like that? I really don't understand why people keep saying that. Egwene hasn't fought any impressive OP duels. She's killed a few raken, but that's the best we've seen, and it doesn't say anything of how she would fare in a duel against someone much stronger.

That is your problem. You are far too focused on duels(ironically an area in which Nyn has not fared well outside of that first strength on strength arm wrestle, so it is rather counterproductive to your argument. What I find even funnier is it's exactly the straw man you tried to create claiming I said "only duels" matter when that was certainly never the case.  ) and are ignoring the larger implications of what skills, knowledge and dexterity mean to channeling prowess. Egwene clearly runs away with all those categories and as such can quite likely overcome the strength difference.

[Durinax]

"In all aspects"? What's the basis for saying anything like that? I really don't understand why people keep saying that. Egwene hasn't fought any impressive OP duels. She's killed a few raken, but that's the best we've seen, and it doesn't say anything of how she would fare in a duel against someone much stronger.

I just realized that the only time that we have seen Egwene in a OP fight (other than at Cairhein but she was at almost 0 risk there) is when the seanchan attack, which in my opinion wasn't too impressive in the fighting itself, it was her ability to organize some novices into circles that was the impressive bit

[fionwe1987]

 

 

 

 

 

It should be noted that the RJ quote mentions PASSING the test. Not surviving it.

 

The books themselves show WHY Nynaeve nearly did not pass: because she trained her channelling, but didn't train 'being calm' which is also a part of Aes Sedai training, and one Egwene and Elayne are pretty good at (and which, in some situations, IS important). It's darn obvious that Nynaeve had not nearly as much trouble with the channeling part.

 

 

Nice try. However, RJ mentioned their current capabilities, and Nynaeve's specialized knowledge, neither of which have anything to do with keeping a straight face. 

 

 

 

Come now... the books show why Nynaeve did nearly fail. It was NOTHING to do with channeling, and EVERYTHING with composure. Which is a skill Aes Sedai highly value and train their students in. Hell, Rand specifically warns Nynaeve against becoming a typical calm Aes Sedai, showing that Rand, too, notices it's part of being Aes Sedai. The quotes from ToM, a choice:

 

"It is unimportant,"Barasine the Red said in a cold voice. "She failed the test." and a bit later "You failed, child,"Barasine said, regarding Nynaeve with an emotionless stare. "You did not show proper decorum."

Straight from the Aes Sedai involved, Nynaevew HAD trouble in passing the test. And why? Because she did now show proper decorum. Not because her channeling sucked, or she cursed them all for being mean or... no, it was decorum that nearly made her fail. And lo, we see one part of AS training that Nynaeve did not learn, ie. a too focused set of only some common Aes Sedai skills which excluded decorum.

 

Two things: this is a Brandon scene. RJ made it clear we would never see the Aes Sedai test in the books again. He didn't write this. The last time he spoke of their skills (after KoD was written), he said Nynaeve would have difficulty passing because she was too specialized. NOT because she was too temperamental, NOT because she couldn't keep a straight face.

 

Now, post this quote, Brandon had her learn the 100 weaves to be Aes Sedai. And that is all he showed her doing. He didn't show her reaching for all the other knowledge Aes Sedai have. He didn't show her being interested in expanding her general skill set. Then he had her take the test, where she passed because she had studied the 100 weaves well, and cleverly used them to defend herself at times, and the rest of the time used her brute strength against non-channeling foes well.

 

But he didn't tackle the issue of too much specialization that RJ said would make things tough for Nynaeve. And since he didn't address that, and that quote came straight from the horses mouth, I'm going to take RJ's word over Brandon's.

 

 

 

Specialization was Nynaeve's problem, but that's a rather broad category. Specialization in what? Learning only specific types of channeling counts, sure, but so does only learning the channelling Aes Sedai offer while skipping everything else. Now sure, it may be a Brandon quote; but, seeing as it was published and given that I have no list of who wrote what, I will consider it canon... and the book spells out WHY Nynaeve nearly failed.

 

And it was specialization... just specialization in the broader sense of not learning all Aes Sedai can offer, not in the sense of only learning specific weaves.

 

Dude... RJ mentioned "current abilities". Stop trying to twist the quote into what it is not. He's not saying she is too emotional. He's saying she doesn't know what other AS know, because her skills are too focussed. Cadsuane says the same thing about her. She says the same herself. Case closed.

 

Sleepinghour:

 

Cadsuane makes her comment after a meeting where she clearly went about teaching Nynaeve about her ter'angreal. Alivia also says that Cadsuane can teach. And if you think Cadsuane is not capable of assessing someones abilities after one meeting, you're wrong. 

 

And knowing Aes Sedai weaves is not the be all and end all of dueling, but it certainly helps, as we see from Moiraine's fight with Merise. As for the nasty weaves from Moghedien, Egwene has learned all those, and then she had even more time with Moghedien, at which time she extracted even more from her because Moghedien was actually scared of her. She learned enough that Beonin said:

 

 

If I may say, Mother, it was the most excellent decision not to try Egwene. For one thing, she has the genius for discovering new weaves, even better than Elayne Trakand or Nynaeve al'Meara.

 

We also know she learned Compulsion, and worked on how to counter it herself ( a little example of how she's been channeling since she became Amyrlin, and not just spending time playing politics):

 

 

"That sounds too much like Compulsion," Egwene said firmly. She had learned that weave from Moghedien, but only to work on how to counter it. The thing was filth, the theft of another person's will, of their whole being. Someone who was Compelled did anything you ordered. Anything. And believed it was their own choice. Just thinking about it made her feel dirty.

 

And here's more evidence Egwene is very very dextrous:

 

 

"Few can do it," Aviendha admitted calmly. "But I can." That produced a different sort of stare, from Elayne as well; it was a very rare Talent. She did not seem to notice. "Do you claim that none of the Shadowsouled can?" she went on. The tightness of her shoulder under Elayne's hand said she was not so cool as she pretended. "Are you such fools that you leave tracks for your enemies to follow? Any who could read the residues could make a gateway to this spot."

That would have taken great dexterity, very great dexterity, but the suggestion was enough to leave Merilille blinking. Adeleas opened her mouth, then closed it without speaking, and Vandene frowned thoughtfully. Sareitha simply looked worried. Who could say what Talents the Forsaken had, what skill?

 

It takes very great dexterity to copy a gateway to a particular location. 

 

 

"It won't," she said, channeling to swing the gate shut, then closing the gateway. "Not right to the city." Nothing moved that anyone could have seen; there was no wind or breeze, nothing to feel. They were in motion, though. And fast; faster than she could imagine anything moving. It must be six hundred miles or more they had to go. "I can put you out five, maybe six days north of Ebou Dar." She had seen the gateway woven when Nynaeve and Elayne Traveled south, and she remembered enough for Skimming to the same place.

 

Proof positive that Egwene has, to quote Elayne, "very great dexterity". And you know who's the only other character who's been shown to be able to copy Gateways to an exact location? Rand...

 

I rest my case. 

[avernite]

 

 

 

 

 

 

It should be noted that the RJ quote mentions PASSING the test. Not surviving it.

 

The books themselves show WHY Nynaeve nearly did not pass: because she trained her channelling, but didn't train 'being calm' which is also a part of Aes Sedai training, and one Egwene and Elayne are pretty good at (and which, in some situations, IS important). It's darn obvious that Nynaeve had not nearly as much trouble with the channeling part.

 

 

Nice try. However, RJ mentioned their current capabilities, and Nynaeve's specialized knowledge, neither of which have anything to do with keeping a straight face. 

 

 

 

Come now... the books show why Nynaeve did nearly fail. It was NOTHING to do with channeling, and EVERYTHING with composure. Which is a skill Aes Sedai highly value and train their students in. Hell, Rand specifically warns Nynaeve against becoming a typical calm Aes Sedai, showing that Rand, too, notices it's part of being Aes Sedai. The quotes from ToM, a choice:

 

"It is unimportant,"Barasine the Red said in a cold voice. "She failed the test." and a bit later "You failed, child,"Barasine said, regarding Nynaeve with an emotionless stare. "You did not show proper decorum."

Straight from the Aes Sedai involved, Nynaevew HAD trouble in passing the test. And why? Because she did now show proper decorum. Not because her channeling sucked, or she cursed them all for being mean or... no, it was decorum that nearly made her fail. And lo, we see one part of AS training that Nynaeve did not learn, ie. a too focused set of only some common Aes Sedai skills which excluded decorum.

 

Two things: this is a Brandon scene. RJ made it clear we would never see the Aes Sedai test in the books again. He didn't write this. The last time he spoke of their skills (after KoD was written), he said Nynaeve would have difficulty passing because she was too specialized. NOT because she was too temperamental, NOT because she couldn't keep a straight face.

 

Now, post this quote, Brandon had her learn the 100 weaves to be Aes Sedai. And that is all he showed her doing. He didn't show her reaching for all the other knowledge Aes Sedai have. He didn't show her being interested in expanding her general skill set. Then he had her take the test, where she passed because she had studied the 100 weaves well, and cleverly used them to defend herself at times, and the rest of the time used her brute strength against non-channeling foes well.

 

But he didn't tackle the issue of too much specialization that RJ said would make things tough for Nynaeve. And since he didn't address that, and that quote came straight from the horses mouth, I'm going to take RJ's word over Brandon's.

 

 

 

Specialization was Nynaeve's problem, but that's a rather broad category. Specialization in what? Learning only specific types of channeling counts, sure, but so does only learning the channelling Aes Sedai offer while skipping everything else. Now sure, it may be a Brandon quote; but, seeing as it was published and given that I have no list of who wrote what, I will consider it canon... and the book spells out WHY Nynaeve nearly failed.

 

And it was specialization... just specialization in the broader sense of not learning all Aes Sedai can offer, not in the sense of only learning specific weaves.

 

Dude... RJ mentioned "current abilities". Stop trying to twist the quote into what it is not. He's not saying she is too emotional. He's saying she doesn't know what other AS know, because her skills are too focussed. Cadsuane says the same thing about her. She says the same herself. Case closed.

 

 

RJ mentioned abilities, not channelling abilities. Given that the word ability exists in the real world, we must conclude that there are other abilities than channelling. When you're going to use RJ as proof he'd better be actually saying what you claim he says.

 

He says it's down to abilities and specialization. Not abilities/specialization in channelling. The latter is a conclusion you reach from the former, not what he actually said. I disagree with that conclusion, because the books present WHAT Nynaeve nearly failed on, and it was not channelling.

 

Unfortunately the rest of your post does present a bit of a problem for the 'Egwene is NOT proven to be superduper great at dexterity' crowd which I am part of... we know Nynaeve can counter compulsion, so Egwene doesn't directly prove better there, but I can't think of a time Nynaeve copied a gateway :(

[Thrasymachus]

"In all aspects"? What's the basis for saying anything like that? I really don't understand why people keep saying that. Egwene hasn't fought any impressive OP duels. She's killed a few raken, but that's the best we've seen, and it doesn't say anything of how she would fare in a duel against someone much stronger.

Well, for one thing Egwene's dividing her flows 13 different ways while forkrooted in the Tower.  And about that "just killed a few raken."  Being filled with enough Power to level mountains doesn't make you immune to arrows and it doesn't make you immune to falling debris, or secondary effects of diverted weaves. Egwene was also forkrooted during that battle, which has an effect on ability as well as Power, and while she overcame her Power troubles with the sa'angreal and her Novice circle, she still had to deal with being all fuzzy from the forkroot.  She would have had to defend herself against both Power-based and normal attacks while at the same time searching out the raiding parties and bringing down to'raken.  That's a much more chaotic situation requiring much more adaptability than a 1 on 1 duel would require, and Nynaeve's not really won many of those anyway.

[Suttree]

RJ mentioned abilities, not channelling abilities. Given that the word ability exists in the real world, we must conclude that there are other abilities than channelling. When you're going to use RJ as proof he'd better be actually saying what you claim he says.

 

Come now Avernite. It quite obviously is referring to channeling when you look at the context. You really are reaching here.

[avernite]

 

RJ mentioned abilities, not channelling abilities. Given that the word ability exists in the real world, we must conclude that there are other abilities than channelling. When you're going to use RJ as proof he'd better be actually saying what you claim he says.

Come now Avernite. It quite obviously is referring to channeling when you look at the context. You really are reaching here.

 

I see no context; but even so, we have RJ saying abilities, not chanelling abilities... and two books later have explained in detail what is wrong with Nynaeve. It hardly seems a stretch he might have meant that exact explanation, even if the chanelling explanation may also be true.

[elric]

Fianwe

o.k it wasnt due to her refusing to surrender it was due to her impatience and tendacy to sometime disregard other ppl .

still fall under CHARACTER FLOW and not CHANNELING DIABILITY.

 

 

let try to put some order in this debate

 

i think all can agrea on several facts:

 

fact a:Nyn is stronger then Eggy

fact b: Eggy is very dexterious and skilled.

 

i douth any here argue this facts

but A beeing dexterious NOT equal B is not dexterious or that A is more dexterious then B unless u know B dexterity.

 

about the claim Nyn is lacking in skill:

from ToM

"

"You're too experienced to have been given this test," Egwene ex-plained. "In a way, what happened is proof that
you deserved the shawl when I granted it to you. You performed each of the weaves expertly, with speed and skill. I
particularly liked the way you used 'useless' weaves, on occasion, to attack the things you saw."

"

and those are NOT healing weaves.

also in book 3 Siuan speicificly tell Nyn she will need to be able to channel CALMLY, that verin say she allready (blocked and untrained) as strong as any AS but that she can chsnnel only inanger, and that beeing CALM under pressure is her hold up.

also in book 3 when Sheriam catch the Gray man Nyn not only learn the AIR (NOT healing) weave she use but also immidately think of other uses and innovation to it. 

 

about Eggy beeing more combat oriented then Nyn

from ToM

"

"I want you to be very careful," Egwene said. "You're the only one here who has faced one of the Forsaken directly,
and you also have more experience with Tel'aran'rhiod than the others. If Mesaana arrives, you are to lead the
attack."
"I think I can manage that," Nynaeve said, the corners of her mouth rising. Yes, she could manage it. Holding
Nynaeve back from attacking, that would have been the difficult task.

"

Nyn was alway the charge into battle type, never surrendering , never back up, she is a fighter as well as an healer in her core.

 

 

about fighting skill:

from ToM

"

Evanellein yelped, and Egwene used a trick Nynaeve had taught her__she
imagined Evanellein being stupid, unable to think, unable to react.

"

a trick btw Nyn hadnt use vs Taleen which WASNT a real  life or death fight.

 

Duel experience:

Nyn fought Moj  and unlike some here i DONT belittle a win over a forsaken in a duel

and fought 2 LINKED BA both strong enough to create portals (NOT weaklings)

Eggy duel who ????

 

mass combat effectivness:

Eggy had roughly 2 month with the Senchean and learn few basic destruction weave

and seen 2 combat Palm + Cair

Nyn was in Palme and accompany Rand watching several fight , including the attack on the farm house

and Eggy can only blast while Nyn can blast AND heal so even in  not a duel situation in battle situation i will go with Nyn, do anyone think healing had no benefit in combat situation ?

[Nightstrike]

Well, for one thing Egwene's dividing her flows 13 different ways while forkrooted in the Tower.

Rand divided his flows when he held Eggy and Elayne, so if that should count for something, then strength must mean much as a consequence.

 

And about that "just killed a few raken."  Being filled with enough Power to level mountains doesn't make you immune to arrows and it doesn't make you immune to falling debris, or secondary effects of diverted weaves.

Yeah, she killed raken. Maybe more than a few, but how does it matter in a duel with Nynaeve? Not much.

 

Egwene was also forkrooted during that battle, which has an effect on ability as well as Power, and while she overcame her Power troubles with the sa'angreal and her Novice circle, she still had to deal with being all fuzzy from the forkroot.

She couldn't have been too fuzzy, but then how would it matter anyway? Neither Nynaeve nor Egwene would be dozed with forkroot in a duel (since it's not specified). If that's the scenario, then the one who's built up the tolerance could perhaps have the advantage. Hasn't been specified.

 

 

[Thrasymachus]

Nynaeve is not Rand, Rand's strength is not what allows him to divide the flows, and Nynaeve has never been shown to have the dexterity or finesse that Egwene routinely displays with creating both complex weaves, and multiples of complex weaves.

 

Egwene was not just standing on the Tower shooting down raken like it was a county fair.  It was an active battle with many different groups, many of whom became quickly focused on taking out Egwene, not all of whom would be using channeling attacks.  Egwene would have had to be aware of and defend against all those potential attackers, while levying her own counterattacks and taking down to'raken.  It's a more chaotic situation than a 1 on 1 duel requiring greater flexibility and adaptability.  Sora's rod and her circle of 13 Novices wouldn't have saved her from an arrow in the back.  It was her own battle-savvy that did that.

 

As for the forkroot not making her too fuzzy, well obviously.  If she was too fuzzy, she wouldn't have won.  But she was still drugged, and was still having to work through those effects, even if she's used to having to do that from spending weeks like that.  If she weren't drugged, the Seanchan attack against the Tower might well have gone off much worse for the Seanchan.  It's conceivable that a fully aware and full-powered Egwene with Sora's rod and her circle would have prevented any Seanchan from escaping, or at lease be awake enough at the end to tell Suian, Gareth and Gawyn to go jump in the river.

[Suttree]

As for the forkroot not making her too fuzzy, well obviously.  If she was too fuzzy, she wouldn't have won.  But she was still drugged, and was still having to work through those effects, even if she's used to having to do that from spending weeks like that.  If she weren't drugged, the Seanchan attack against the Tower might well have gone off much worse for the Seanchan.  It's conceivable that a fully aware and full-powered Egwene with Sora's rod and her circle would have prevented any Seanchan from escaping, or at lease be awake enough at the end to tell Suian, Gareth and Gawyn to go jump in the river.

Very true, which makes her splitting all those weaves while muddled with forkroot in the training lesson during her capture all the more impressive. In the quote I provided earlier it states flat out how difficult it is to "juggle" the power as she was doing splitting all those flows. She did it while being beaten and under the influence of forkroot which I imagine is like doing something very intensive while being worse than "stoned to the bejesus-belt".

 

http://www.carlspackler.com/sounds/144.mp3

 

Lastly people really need to stop referencing the Mogi fight. It was a OP strength v. strength "arm wrestle" with no dexterity or split flows. Even then Nyn needed to physically throw something with her hands at Mogi to win. That fight does nothing to prop up her skill and as we saw against Talaan and the two AS she gets schooled when dexterity enters the equation.

[David Selig]

 243 posts when the answer is as simple as "Whoever the plot requires to win".

 

 Though fact is, no matter what RJ said when asked, in the books strength wins over skill and dexterity nearly every time.

 

But I am going to vote for Egwene simply because I hate that Nynaeve is apparently really good OP fighter even though she never ever trains for combat, all her training has been Healing only and she paid no attention to any other lessons in the Tower.

[fionwe1987]

 243 posts when the answer is as simple as "Whoever the plot requires to win".

 

 Though fact is, no matter what RJ said when asked, in the books strength wins over skill and dexterity nearly every time.

 

But I am going to vote for Egwene simply because I hate that Nynaeve is apparently really good OP fighter even though she never ever trains for combat, all her training has been Healing only and she paid no attention to any other lessons in the Tower.

Think you need to read the books again. Skill, training and surprise win almost every time. Even Nynaeve vs. Moghedien ended up depending on surprise, not strength. 

 

And of course, the "plot" argument doesn't work because the plot is never going to have these two dueling each other.

[Durinax]

 

 

As for the forkroot not making her too fuzzy, well obviously.  If she was too fuzzy, she wouldn't have won.  But she was still drugged, and was still having to work through those effects, even if she's used to having to do that from spending weeks like that.  If she weren't drugged, the Seanchan attack against the Tower might well have gone off much worse for the Seanchan.  It's conceivable that a fully aware and full-powered Egwene with Sora's rod and her circle would have prevented any Seanchan from escaping, or at lease be awake enough at the end to tell Suian, Gareth and Gawyn to go jump in the river.

Very true, which makes her splitting all those weaves while muddled with forkroot in the training lesson during her capture all the more impressive. In the quote I provided earlier it states flat out how difficult it is to "juggle" the power as she was doing splitting all those flows. She did it while being beaten and under the influence of forkroot which I imagine is like doing something very intensive while being worse than "stoned to the bejesus-belt".

 

Lastly people really need to stop referencing the Mogi fight. It was a OP strength v. strength "arm wrestle" with no dexterity or split flows. Even then Nyn needed to physically throw something with her hands at Mogi to win. That fight does nothing to prop up her skill and as we saw against Talaan and the two AS she gets schooled when dexterity enters the equation.

 

 

To the bold, are you kidding me? She was clearly under the effects of over channelling, as evidenced by "She'd pushed the limits of what she could manage." If she was 'whole' from the start she would have had to do over double the damage she had done "And still, more to'raken had escaped than had fallen."

 

Suttree how again was she schooled by those two BA, I believe it was a stalemate, which is still remarkable because she was still barely over half trained and still held off two fully trained and linked women, who if dexterity is the be all, would have completely destroyed her.

 

On a related note could someone please give me the chapter when Egwene first started getting dosed with forkroot

[fionwe1987]

 

Suttree how again was she schooled by those two BA, I believe it was a stalemate, which is still remarkable because she was still barely over half trained and still held off two fully trained and linked women, who if dexterity is the be all, would have completely destroyed her.

It was a stalemate, which is shocking because those two are fairly weak women. That they were even able to stalemate her is a sign of how bad her skills and dexterity are. 

[Thrasymachus]

Yeah, and she was drugged.  If she weren't drugged, she would have had the whole of her strength to add to her sa'angreal+circle, which is not inconsiderable, plus she would have been quicker-thinking.  It's not inconceivable that someone would do twice as well in an undrugged state than they did if they were drugged. 

[Kahsm]

The fact Egwene is losing this poll so badly is pretty disgusting. For the love of god people, she's the fighter, Nynaeve is the healer. Archetypes alone should convince you, then there's all the stuff Sutt and Luckers have said.

 

I get it, you WANT Nynaeve to be better because Egwene deserves no props for anything, but get over it. Actually, I didn't read the entire 13 pages, but I'm surprised I didn't see someone suggest Egwene would be better BECAUSE she's a cold-hearted, friend-backstabbing, power-monger, and would therefore fight dirty and remorselessly. But that's only true when it works against her, I'm sure.