Elayne's personality

[Maleshub]

There were two bargains: The Bowl of Winds bargain and the "Caemlyn Bargain." Both were horrible; but the second was totally useless and unnecessary by her own account:

 

KoD: Siege

 

No, what nettled her was that she had not thought of using the Kin that way earlier. If she had, she would not be saddled with Sea Folk still, not to mention a bargain that gave up a square mile of Andor. Light, a square mile! Her mother had never given up one inch of Andor.

 

A square mile that is going to bring in quite a bit of revenue to Andor, so it is hardly useless.

 

Elayne's thoughts, not mine! Regardless of revenue; aside from the "in perpetuity" nature of the Bargain; and neglecting the legal sovereignty issue; Elayne felt that she made a terrible deal. Elayne could have had the same revenue by leasing a square mile, not ceding it.

[Bobwheel]

I agree, I was thinking of the one for using the bowl.

 

I mean my negotiating position would be, use the bowl or I'll make it known to every Coast city how the sea folk had it within there power to fix the weather but choose not too.

They would rather see you all die from drought.

 

 

But it seems to me they have the power to reverse this deal quite easily since Mat's deal with them was you agree to go where ever they want you to. All Elayne would have to say is ever want to see the sea again?

[Ozzie_aiel]

True that, and imports like silk and ivory will be cheaper, not having to pass through as many mercharts as it normally would. More exports and cheaper imports make it a real good deal.

[elric]

there few things that annoy me with Elayne :

 

her inital treatment of Mat.

her attidute to Perrin

and mostly that sharp change in skill from the totall idiot in the sea falk deal to to the genious who literally rob Matt in the cannon deal.

 

but her good traits do over shadow her annoying ones :).

 

i think most of the hate toward Elayne is the general hate toward the way 90% of the woman in WoT are described (espeicelly in their attidute toward the males)

[Durinax]

her inital treatment of Mat.

her attidute to Perrin

Towards mat:

This isn't too outlandish, think of how you would react if someone told you nothing but negative things about a person then suddenly you are plunged into close quarters with them.

 

Towards Perrin:

As already explained in this thread this has been mostly politiking, not that she actually meant everything she said.

[elric]

not arguing it Dur :)

 

i agrea it was in reaso toward Mat , espeicelly if u consider that Nyn was her main source of information :))

and that with Perrin it was politic.

 

but i still find it a bit annoying :)

my main issue is the 3rd -> the to big to fast jump in ability .

 

but again i dont hate her :)

and i fully agrea her good trait are more dominant :)

[Ozzie_aiel]

How can anyone hate a hot 18yr old with her own country? :-P

I agree though, Mat was set up by Nynaeve as a wastral, probably not helped that he just beat up her 2 brothers.

 

Perrin was political, though I don't doubt she'd have him executed. By law he as a rebel, and had just arrived with a mob of armed peasants, soldiers from 2 different nations and every whitecloak outside Seanchan held lands. Under those conditions any monarch would be sending for an executioner.

[Maleshub]

Regarding the Perrin - Elayne encounter, he sent Morgase ahead of him to placate Elayne's fears and make his intentions clear. It was clear as blown glass (if the symbolism fits) that Perrin didn't have any secessionist intentions. Elayne tried to threaten Perrin to get a better bargaining position. But his reply was awesome. It turned the table on her and upset her, which is good in that negotiation setting.

"So," Elayne said, "explain to me why I shouldn't just execute you both as traitors."

 

Faile blinked in surprise. Perrin, however, snorted. "I don't think Rand would think very highly of that move."

 

"I'm not beholden to him," Elayne said.

Elayne threatens him; he replies by reminding her that he's more important to Rand than Andor! Rand is certain to lose the LB without Perrin. But he could (and most likely will have to) fight the LB without Andor's armies.

[BFG]

Seperating out the armies from the leaders.  As per Min, Elayne 'is part of it'.  Elayne is needed to help the fireflies (assuming this is the same vision) as much as Perrin, Rand needs both.  Either of their armies are as important as each other, since Andor 'has the edge' in numbers Rand arguably needs Andor more.

[zerachiel76]

I'm one in the I hate Elayne camp although I've read all the arguments both for and against her and I won't go over them all again as they've been debated so well I don't think I can bring anything new to the existing points although I agree with most of the anti Elayne opinions.

 

My dislike of her also stems from the following points which I don't remember having been put into the mix yet:

 

• Her 2 pathetic letters to Rand in the Stone, stupid girl mind games (caused by her age I know but I detest this stupid mind game emotional blackmail rubbish used by some young females which I've been on the end of in reality too, so it's not gonna change for make believe characters).
• Her ridiculous attitude that Andor is hers by some divine right just because her mother won some stupid succession where the woman who could link back their descendants on multiple inbred lines to a woman around 1000 years ago.
• Her comment about not accepting Andor from a man - he's the freaking Dragon (spelt with a capital for a reason) - the champion of light. This comment also shows her inherent sexism which makes me detest most of the women throughout the series. (As stated elsewhere I nearly stopped reading the whole series because of Nynaeve early on.)
• The above mentioned woman who seized an opportunity to get Artur Hawkwing's best general to win a kingdom which she and her descendants usurped from any male descendants (ie those who might be first in line for the throne ahead of any females - not that I agree with hereditary rights to inherit thrones though. It's just another example of women screwing over the men and the men not doing anything about it.) The General and his army who won the Kingdom for her were then promptly written almost completely out of history by Elayne and her kind. (The Nobles)
• Her pointless (to the story) pathetic rebirth "Avi is now my sister" scene. I just wanted to burn that chapter out of my mind. Pointless, pathetic rubbish in my opinion. How did it advance anything at all? What was the point in it? Just trying to tweak the readers emotions I think but as a man it was completely pointless to me.
• Her immaturity through most of the books (she can't do a lot about her age but since she's been trained to be a queen you'd think she'd have her immaturity under control better due to the teaching.)
• Her attitude that every last inch of Andor is hers despite the fact her mother was having trouble controlling some of it in the early books (the white and red ribbon thing in Book 1 etc) and therefore the fact that Rand set up the Black Tower to fight at Tarmon Gaidon taking over a TINY amount of Andorian land which was probably virtually uninhabited. Does she accept it with good grace for the greater good or even "keep my friends close or my enemies closer"? No she sets herself against it as soon as she can. Dumb *****
• Her disrespect to Rand, despite knowing who he is. She might end up loving him but she treats him like dirt and an inferior when he's clearly not.
• Her attitude that all Angreal belong to the White Tower - yeah right.
• Her blaming Rand for everything about her pregnancy. She asked him for sex, therefore the fault of the pregnancy is hers considering as a farm boy with little to no experience of girls (as is rammed down our throats in the early books) Rand probably doesn't even know the risks of her getting pregnancy and doesn't know how to prevent it. Ergo, all her "This is all Rand's fault" thoughts are complete and utter garbage.
• She sees all men as tools, something to be used with no inherent worth as human beings apart from how they can further her goals. (She's not alone in this, most of the Aes Sedai do the same and my attitude towards them is similar for the same reason).

Wow, I've wanted to do this for ages and never had the topic to do it on. Thanks OP!   Summarizing why I think "die you b****, die die die" every time she appears in another chapter is very theraputic. Maybe I should go back and put my input into the Egwene one and I'll have to go looking for the Nynaeve one (if there is one) since although she improves in the later books, NOTHING she can ever do will make up for her horrendous attitudes in the early books. Sorry Nynaeve, although you put a lot of positives later on (for me a  say a plus 9 on my imaginary scale) your negative 10 in the early books will always damn you in my eyes and I will celebrate every time you are made to look stupid, humbled and/or humiliated. The only thing that MIGHT redeem you is if you sacrifice yourself to save Rand's (no-one else) life in AMOL.

 

*Breathes deeply and relaxes.

[Suttree]

I'm one in the I hate Elayne camp although I've read all the arguments both for and against her and I won't go over them all again as they've been debated so well I don't think I can bring anything new to the existing points although I agree with most of the anti Elayne opinions.

Man so much wrong here, where to even start? Will just touch on a few of the worst.

• Her ridiculous attitude that Andor is hers by some divine right just because her mother won some stupid succession where the woman who could link back their descendants on multiple inbred lines to a woman around 1000 years ago.

This is in fact the exact opposite. She knows she has to win the votes of the high seats. This is made clear time an again. Not sure how you could even confuse the issue here. Further the line of descent  is how Andor determines potential Queens. You hate Elayne because of a system that was set up long before she was even born?

• Her comment about not accepting Andor from a man - he's the freaking Dragon (spelt with a capital for a reason) - the champion of light. This comment also shows her inherent sexism which makes me detest most of the women throughout the series. (As stated elsewhere I nearly stopped reading the whole series because of Nynaeve early on.)

This has been refuted time and again over the years and it is frankly unbelievable how many people misunderstand this. First Rand was Steward in Andor, he never ruled the country, nor was it his to give. He made Elayne's job much harder because he said he would "give her" the throne. If she had said to Dyelin that she "accepted" the throne from Rand she would have lost the support of every High Seat and the war would have been far bloodier at a time in which Rand could ill afford such a situation in Andor. Bashere tells us this flat out when describing why Elayne can not use Rand's troops. Second again you seem to be blaming Elayne for Andor's culture in which it is a "self evident truth" that the Lion Throne can not be handed over by any one man. It takes a vote from all the High Seats as it is an Elective Monarchy. 

• The above mentioned woman who seized an opportunity to get Artur Hawkwing's best general to win a kingdom which she and her descendants usurped from any male descendants (ie those who might be first in line for the throne ahead of any females - not that I agree with hereditary rights to inherit thrones though. It's just another example of women screwing over the men and the men not doing anything about it.) The General and his army who won the Kingdom for her were then promptly written almost completely out of history by Elayne and her kind. (The Nobles)

This shows an utter lack of understanding in terms of the history of Andor. You can say whatever you want about the General but Ishara was the true power in that situation as everyone knew at the time. She was directing all the events diplomatically with the Amyrlin to gain independence, the General did not win the country, he was merely leading the siege of Tar Valon at the time and then married Ishara. Also the tradition that only a Queen may sit the Lion Throne has nothing to do with "Elayne and her kind", in fact it so happened that the sons of the first Queens of Andor died in battle so the daughters inherited the throne instead. From there after many years it became tradition for "Daughter Heir" and "First Prince".

 

Most of the others are absurd enough that they don't even really need to be addressed. All in all I can not think of a better example of someone reaching wrong conclusions and in turn irrationally disliking a character as the one above.

 

Edit: Missed this one above. The White/Red ribbon think was specifically because Children of the Light were stirring up trouble. By all accounts nationwidee Morgase was a great Queen and had zero trouble holding her country before Rahvin showed up. That is the beauty of Andor, they have the freedom to demonstrate their political thoughts even if it is just WC's stirring up anti-AS connection sentiment. The country is free to speak it's mind and the entire country, both commoners and nobles alike wanted Rand out. As for the BT, that is the craziest thing I have ever heard. Male channelers(per-cleansing the closest thing to nightmares walking) talking a piece of land belonging to Andor and you are mad about a Queen being upset about that? WTF? You would have to be the single worst ruler ever to not be mad at that. You can't just go around letting people take chunks of land or your country would be gone inside a generation.

[zerachiel76]

 

I'm one in the I hate Elayne camp although I've read all the arguments both for and against her and I won't go over them all again as they've been debated so well I don't think I can bring anything new to the existing points although I agree with most of the anti Elayne opinions.

Man so much wrong here, where to even start? Will just touch on a few of the worst.

• Her ridiculous attitude that Andor is hers by some divine right just because her mother won some stupid succession where the woman who could link back their descendants on multiple inbred lines to a woman around 1000 years ago.

This is in fact the exact opposite. She knows she has to win the votes of the high seats. This is made clear time an again. Not sure how you could even confuse the issue here. Further the line of descent  is how Andor determines potential Queens. You hate Elayne because of a system that was set up long before she was even born?

• Her comment about not accepting Andor from a man - he's the freaking Dragon (spelt with a capital for a reason) - the champion of light. This comment also shows her inherent sexism which makes me detest most of the women throughout the series. (As stated elsewhere I nearly stopped reading the whole series because of Nynaeve early on.)

This has been refuted time and again over the years and it is frankly unbelievable how many people misunderstand this. First Rand was Steward in Andor, he never ruled the country, nor was it his to give. He made Elayne's job much harder because he said he would "give her" the throne. If she had said to Dyelin that she "accepted" the throne from Rand she would have lost the support of every High Seat and the war would have been far bloodier at a time in which Rand could ill afford such a situation in Andor. Bashere tells us this flat out when describing why Elayne can not use Rand's troops. Second again you seem to be blaming Elayne for Andor's culture in which it is a "self evident truth" that the Lion Throne can not be handed over by any one man. It takes a vote from all the High Seats as it is an Elective Monarchy. 

• The above mentioned woman who seized an opportunity to get Artur Hawkwing's best general to win a kingdom which she and her descendants usurped from any male descendants (ie those who might be first in line for the throne ahead of any females - not that I agree with hereditary rights to inherit thrones though. It's just another example of women screwing over the men and the men not doing anything about it.) The General and his army who won the Kingdom for her were then promptly written almost completely out of history by Elayne and her kind. (The Nobles)

This shows an utter lack of understanding in terms of the history of Andor. You can say whatever you want about the General but Ishara was the true power in that situation as everyone knew at the time. She was directing all the events diplomatically with the Amyrlin to gain independence, the General did not win the country, he was merely leading the siege of Tar Valon at the time and then married Ishara. Also the tradition that only a Queen may sit the Lion Throne has nothing to do with "Elayne and her kind", in fact it so happened that the sons of the first Queens of Andor died in battle so the daughters inherited the throne instead. From there after many years it became tradition for "Daughter Heir" and "First Prince".

 

Most of the others are absurd enough that they don't even really need to be addressed. All in all I can not think of a better example of someone reaching wrong conclusions and in turn irrationally disliking a character as the one above.

 

 

That is your opinion and I welcome your freedom to express it. However I will not be swayed by anything you can say on this matter. These are the conclusions I've come to over 7 re reads in 6 years.

 

I respect your right to your opinion on mine but I don't accept them. I personally think Elayne and possibly the elective system in Andor was written in such a way as to provoke reactions such as mine and my reaction is due to the skillful and effective writing by RJ. I hate the succession system in Andor, that much is evident and therefore since Elayne is inherently linked to it and I hate her too then I will not separate them in my mind.

 

I'm interested to hear how precisely you think Ishara would have won Andor without the General and his troops who did the fighting and dying for her?

 

I don't see why my disliking the rebirth scene is absurd?

I don't see why my disliking the stupid mind games she played with Rand in her letters is absurd?

I don't see why my dislike about her ridiculous blaming of Rand for her pregnancy is absurd?

In fact I don't know why you feel my other reasons are absurd? Would you care to explain?

[Suttree]

 

I'm interested to hear how precisely you think Ishara would have won Andor without the General and his troops who did the fighting and dying for her?

That's just the thing. I have no idea what fighting and dying you are referring to. It was a diplomatic victory and not a war. Ishara's mother(the daughter of the King of Aldeshar which predated Hawkwing's empire) was already the governor of that province, Ishara then persuaded the general to lift the siege of Tar Valon and married him. Hawkwing was already dead at this time and in return for her help she gained the Amyrlin's support in making Andor a country.

 

As you said everyone is welcome to their opinion, but when said opinions are reached due to a misunderstanding of the facts most would reassess them.

[zerachiel76]

 

 

I'm interested to hear how precisely you think Ishara would have won Andor without the General and his troops who did the fighting and dying for her?

That's just the thing. I have no idea what fighting and dying you are referring to. It was a diplomatic victory and not a war. Ishara's mother was already the governor of that province, Ishara then persuaded the general to lift the siege of Tar Valon and married him. Hawkwing was already dead at this time and in return for her help she gained the Amyrlin's support in making Andor a country.

 

As you said everyone is welcome to their opinion, but when said opinions are reached due to a misunderstanding of the facts most would reassess them.

 

 

"Maravaile lifted the siege, pledged his loyalty and life to Ishara, whom he married, and they returned with his army to Caemlyn, where Ishara declared herself the first Queen of Andor.... Maravaile's army formed the core for the new Andoran military, and its experience and reliablity served Andor well during the early part of theWar of the Hundred Years. Under Maravaile's command, Andor's military expanded east and west so that by FY 999Andor held all the lands between the Cary and the Erinin.

Maravaile's role as commander of Andor's army is analogous to that of the First Prince of the Sword, the traditional commander of Andor's military. Whether this title existed at this time, or if Maravaile was given it, remains unknown."

 

You don't know what fighting or dying I'm referring to? The beginning of the War of the Hundred Years is what I'm referring to. However I acknowledge I said won rather than kept her throne, my mistake. 

 

Souran Maravaile helped Ishara secure Andor and then protected it for her. What would she have done without him? How is he remembered in Andor? As the founding father alongside Ishara as the founding mother? As the first King of Andor? No - he's almost been written out of history and this attitude towards the First Prince of the Sword as simply a tool for the Queen which seemed to have begun with Maravaile's treatment simply continued all the way up to Elayne who views it in the same detestable way. However I acknowledge this particular thing isn't her fault, it's the fault of one of her ascendents.

 

Re the Black Tower, yes I am angry at her for losing probably a square mile since she knows why her lover set it up and why he set it up. She knows that TG is coming and she knows Rand is doing everything he can to help the world survive it? Does she accept this miniscule loss of land for the good of the world? No she has a stupid NIMBY attitude combined with her "all of Andor is mine" attitude which as has been discussed as being ridiculous, elsewhere on the forum, specifically in regards to the Two Rivers which has not in effect been ruled from Caemlyn in who knows how long. "Though officially part of Andor, the Two Rivers has functioned autonomously for many years. Official Tax collectors haven't visited in years and most of the folk don't know that the Two Rivers is included on maps of Andor."

 

Finally you've not provided any reason or evidence why my disliking the pathetic rebirth scene (which I think is pointless, adds nothing to the story and is a waste of a Chapter and yet some people think is so powerful and moving - it moves me to skipping the chapter or feeling ill with the pointless sentimentality of it), the stupid mind games she played with Rand in her letters (where her goal simply seems to make him feel rotten) or her ridiculous blaming of Rand for her pregnancy, are absurd? 

[Suttree]

 

 

 

I'm interested to hear how precisely you think Ishara would have won Andor without the General and his troops who did the fighting and dying for her?

That's just the thing. I have no idea what fighting and dying you are referring to. It was a diplomatic victory and not a war. Ishara's mother was already the governor of that province, Ishara then persuaded the general to lift the siege of Tar Valon and married him. Hawkwing was already dead at this time and in return for her help she gained the Amyrlin's support in making Andor a country.

 

As you said everyone is welcome to their opinion, but when said opinions are reached due to a misunderstanding of the facts most would reassess them.

 

 

"Maravaile lifted the siege, pledged his loyalty and life to Ishara, whom he married, and they returned with his army to Caemlyn, where Ishara declared herself the first Queen of Andor.... Maravaile's army formed the core for the new Andoran military, and its experience and reliablity served Andor well during the early part of theWar of the Hundred Years. Under Maravaile's command, Andor's military expanded east and west so that by FY 999Andor held all the lands between the Cary and the Erinin.

Maravaile's role as commander of Andor's army is analogous to that of the First Prince of the Sword, the traditional commander of Andor's military. Whether this title existed at this time, or if Maravaile was given it, remains unknown."

 

You don't know what fighting or dying I'm referring to? The beginning of the War of the Hundred Years is what I'm referring to. However I acknowledge I said won rather than kept her throne, my mistake. 

 

Souran Maravaile helped Ishara secure Andor and then protected it for her. What would she have done without him? How is he remembered in Andor? As the founding father alongside Ishara as the founding mother? As the first King of Andor? No - he's almost been written out of history and this attitude towards the First Prince of the Sword as simply a tool for the Queen which seemed to have begun with Maravaile's treatment simply continued all the way up to Elayne who views it in the same detestable way. However I acknowledge this particular thing isn't her fault, it's the fault of one of her ascendents.

Where is that text from? I hope not WoT Wiki as that certainly is not an accepted source and not canon by any stretch of the imagination. As with the text you provided there are far too many mistakes and assumptions.

 

The confusion came when you said he "won" the country. As a commoner and general no doubt he came in handy expanding borders for Andor but no one was trying to take the country from her. She already had a military presence and the BWB says she married him for love not just his skills as a general. So no once again you are far off in you thinking here. He most certainly hasn't been "written out of history" as he founded nothing. As I said all along Ishara was the true power, not sure why that is difficult to understand.

 

Per the BT she knows nothing of the sort. You are making the mistake of looking at things from a reader not "in world" perspective. Not to mention it's hilarious that you would be mad at her when Rand set up a DF/13x13 training ground in her country and walked away from it, never to pay it another glance. You are mad at Elayne here? Bwhaha. The Two Rivers is obviously different but I'm not sure why you think it has been proven elsewhere on this forum to be wrong. Newbs frequently misunderstand it and then are conclusively shot down. The crown made a choice between 2Rs tabac and the mines in terms of what to pay more attention to. The 2Rs is as isolated a spot as anywhere in the world but it is still part of Andor. It is ludicrous to claim secluded areas can just break off from their country as they like. All in all however it is yet another show of bias on your part to blame Elayne on the topic. She is securing her borders as she should, it is her job. Maybe you just don't like politics?

 

As for your final point I'm not even getting in to it with you. It is quite clear that bias plays far too much a role in how you are viewing things. The Avi scene is as much proof of that as anyone needs.

[zerachiel76]

 

 

 

 

I'm interested to hear how precisely you think Ishara would have won Andor without the General and his troops who did the fighting and dying for her?

That's just the thing. I have no idea what fighting and dying you are referring to. It was a diplomatic victory and not a war. Ishara's mother was already the governor of that province, Ishara then persuaded the general to lift the siege of Tar Valon and married him. Hawkwing was already dead at this time and in return for her help she gained the Amyrlin's support in making Andor a country.

 

As you said everyone is welcome to their opinion, but when said opinions are reached due to a misunderstanding of the facts most would reassess them.

 

 

"Maravaile lifted the siege, pledged his loyalty and life to Ishara, whom he married, and they returned with his army to Caemlyn, where Ishara declared herself the first Queen of Andor.... Maravaile's army formed the core for the new Andoran military, and its experience and reliablity served Andor well during the early part of theWar of the Hundred Years. Under Maravaile's command, Andor's military expanded east and west so that by FY 999Andor held all the lands between the Cary and the Erinin.

Maravaile's role as commander of Andor's army is analogous to that of the First Prince of the Sword, the traditional commander of Andor's military. Whether this title existed at this time, or if Maravaile was given it, remains unknown."

 

You don't know what fighting or dying I'm referring to? The beginning of the War of the Hundred Years is what I'm referring to. However I acknowledge I said won rather than kept her throne, my mistake. 

 

Souran Maravaile helped Ishara secure Andor and then protected it for her. What would she have done without him? How is he remembered in Andor? As the founding father alongside Ishara as the founding mother? As the first King of Andor? No - he's almost been written out of history and this attitude towards the First Prince of the Sword as simply a tool for the Queen which seemed to have begun with Maravaile's treatment simply continued all the way up to Elayne who views it in the same detestable way. However I acknowledge this particular thing isn't her fault, it's the fault of one of her ascendents.

Where is that text from? I hope not WoT Wiki as that certainly is not an accepted source and not canon by any stretch of the imagination. As with the text you provided there are far too many mistakes and assumptions.

 

The confusion came when you said he "won" the country. As a commoner and general no doubt he came in handy expanding borders for Andor but no one was trying to take the country from her. She already had a military presence and the BWB says she married him for love not just his skills as a general. So no once again you are far off in you thinking here. He most certainly hasn't been "written out of history" as he founded nothing. As I said all along Ishara was the true power, not sure why that is difficult to understand.

 

As for your final point I'm not even getting in to it with you. It is quite clear that bias plays far too much a role in how you are viewing things. The Avi scene is as much proof of that as anyone needs.

 

Per the BT she knows nothing of the sort. You are making the mistake of looking at things from a reader not "in world" perspective. Not to mention it's hilarious that you would be mad at her when Rand set up a DF/13x13 training ground in her country and walked away from it, never to pay it another glance. You are mad at Elayne here? Bwhaha.

 

Where do you get your sources that she had her own military? She was the daughter of a governor of a province. I believe you are making an assumption on what powers her position gave her. Do you know whether governors were allowed to keep or control armies in Hawkwing's Empire? Please provide evidence that the Governor of a province controlled a military force and I await details of Ishara's military prior to Maravaile bringing his Army. I appreciate that in the US each state has it's own National Guard, however you are assuming that Hawkwing's empire was run the same way.

 

It is currently my opinion that the military force would be controlled by Hawkwing and below him his Generals as a separate military force. Unless you can provide evidence to the contrary I will continue my belief that the military in Hawkwing's Empire was organised and controlled like in other countries such as the UK where all military forces are controlled by the main country's government not local government.

 

After all what better way of preventing uprisings than making sure you control all the military?  However I will concede the point if you can provide evidence she controlled enough of a military force to hold Andor against outside attack without Maravaile's army. If she didn't, she wouldn't have been able to hold Andor and thus Maravaile and his army secured Andor as an ongoing viable nation and he (through his army) should be recognised as the joint founder of the nation.

 

I find it ironic that you accuse me of making the mistake of seeing things as a reader's point of view when your next statement regarding 13x13 is seeing things in exactly the same way. Elayne doesn't know anything about 13x13 or the DFs in the BT that we're aware of through her POV. All she can see is Rand set up the BT to train male channellers to fight in TG and her objection to this is what I find dumb.

 

Rand's mistake in walking away from it is another example of "reader's perspective". Do we know for certain whether she know he's not been there in ages?

 

You say WoT Wiki is not an accepted source. Please provide examples of its inaccuracy on this matter?

 

Yes I'm biased against Elayne, I've never denied the fact. I've set out why I'm biased against her and the only things I've not included are those already written by other people.

 

Regarding my final point, you state that my opinions are absurd (meaning ridiculously unreasonable, unsound or having no rational or orderly relationship to human life) but don't provide any supporting points. I think that by simply accusing me of having absurd opinions and then failing to state why or providing evidence to support your arguments, is unreasonable and could be construed as a personal slight against me. In essence you call me a name and simply walk away.

 

I've been on this site a long time and read many a discussion and debate you have been involved in, and have a great deal of respect for your debating abilities, knowledge and opinions, even when I don't agree with them.  Therefore I'm most disappointed by your stance on this. I haven't put my thoughts on here in an attempt to persuade others I am correct as these are simply my opinions and everyone else is free to have their own. I however don't like my opinions being attacked without some evidence to show why I'm incorrect in my viewpoint (in the same way as you provided some evidence on the founding of Andor - the debate on which I'm enjoying). I am fully prepared to admit I'm wrong if you provide evidence contrary to my existing views.

 

I've not included on this thread anything on my opinion of Rand's mistakes with the BT, so to answer your question, yes I'm mad at Elayne here. This thread isn't for saying why I might be mad with Rand, that's for a whole different thread.

[David Selig]

 What head of state would be happy if a foreign power just takes over 15 square miles of their land right next to the capital? It's a perfectly natural and justified reaction to be unhappy with it. Especially given that the Asha'man could get insane and start blowing things up at any time and Caemlyn was just a few miles away.

 

 Of course Ishara is better remembered than her husband. She was the first Queen and usually it's monarchs who are remembered more than their generals, even if the generals did their job better. That's the way it goes. Who remembers the generals of most English or French Kings outside of history buffs? Nobody. How is this relevant anyway? Elayne would compare herself to Queens, since this was always what expected to be any day, not to generals.

[Suttree]

I've been on this site a long time and read many a discussion and debate you have been involved in, and have a great deal of respect for your debating abilities, knowledge and opinions, even when I don't agree with them. Therefore I'm most disappointed by your stance on this. I haven't put my thoughts on here in an attempt to persuade others I am correct as these are simply my opinions and everyone else is free to have their own. I however don't like my opinions being attacked without some evidence to show why I'm incorrect in my viewpoint (in the same way as you provided some evidence on the founding of Andor - the debate on which I'm enjoying). I am fully prepared to admit I'm wrong if you provide evidence contrary to my existing views.

 

First off let me be clear, I apologize if my post came off in a disrespectful manner. I was merely trying to show that your opinion was based on some incorrect facts, mainly because of your phrasing that "won" the country for her.

 

In terms of WoT Wiki it is not and has never been an accepted source. It is made by fans and as such has numerous mistakes and assumptions. I see mistakes above concerning Andor not having any military(Enshara was the daughter of the King of Aldeshar which predated Hawkwing and as such had a pre existing military and nation behind her yearning for independance). We know Hawkwing ruled by leaving the nations largely intact after conquering. Secondly we know the "Prince of the Sword" title came after the first few Queens sons died. Those are the two that jump out as wrong and I suspect the 100 years portion is as well considering Andor was not a target like Cairhein during that time. They were expanding their territory, not defending. Regardless it's besides the point. The wiki can not be used as a source.

 

As for in world view Elayne may not know for certain that Taim is a DF but she certainly suspects something wrong. In addition as David raised there are other issues to consider and it is incorrect for you to blame Elayne here.

 

To end I have enjoyed the conversation and again it wasn't my intent to offend. Cheers.

[zerachiel76]

 

I've been on this site a long time and read many a discussion and debate you have been involved in, and have a great deal of respect for your debating abilities, knowledge and opinions, even when I don't agree with them. Therefore I'm most disappointed by your stance on this. I haven't put my thoughts on here in an attempt to persuade others I am correct as these are simply my opinions and everyone else is free to have their own. I however don't like my opinions being attacked without some evidence to show why I'm incorrect in my viewpoint (in the same way as you provided some evidence on the founding of Andor - the debate on which I'm enjoying). I am fully prepared to admit I'm wrong if you provide evidence contrary to my existing views.

First off let me be clear, I apologize if my post came off in a disrespectful manner. I was merely trying to show that your opinion was based on some incorrect facts, mainly because of your phrasing that "won" the country for her.

 

In terms of WoT Wiki it is not and has never been an accepted source. It is made by fans and as such has numerous mistakes and assumptions. I see mistakes above concerning Andor not having any military(Enshara was the daughter of the King of Aldeshar which predated Hawkwing and as such had a pre existing military and nation behind her yearning for independance). We know Hawkwing ruled by leaving the nations largely intact after conquering. Secondly we know the "Prince of the Sword" title came after the first few Queens sons died. Those are the two that jump out as wrong and I suspect the 100 years portion is as well considering Andor was not a target like Cairhein during that time. They were expanding their territory, not defending. Regardless it's besides the point. The wiki can not be used as a source.

 

As for in world view Elayne may not know for certain that Taim is a DF but she certainly suspects something wrong. In addition as David raised there are other issues to consider and it is incorrect for you to blame Elayne here.

 

To end I have enjoyed the conversation and again it wasn't my intent to offend. Cheers.

 

Thanks, sorry for the belated response but my bed called me last night as I'd not noticed how late it had got. I do acknowledge that I used the word won rather than secured which caused confusion.

 

Returning to the founding of Andor I've found something interesting regarding Ishara and her mother. The World of the Wheel of Time page 136 states that "Additionally he (Hawkwing) divided all of the nations into provinces which ofttimes overlapped old national boundaries. While lower level functionaries in any province always came from the same region, no-one was appointed governor over a province that held any part of the nation they had been born in and he made certain that soldiers garrisoned in a province always came from still another region of the empire. This made it impossible for any governor to build a personal base of power".

 

However on page 168 it states "Ishara declared Andor as a sovereign nation and took the title as Queen, but she was no stranger to royalty, the former governor, Ishara's mother, had been the daughter of the last King of Aldeshar before Hawkwing conquered it." 

 

Now I can appreciate that Ishara's mother might not have been born in the part of Aldeshar which was subsumed into Andor after Hawkwing conquered it. However this does seem a little strange considering the blanket statement about no governor coming from the land they were born in as I would have thought that Ishara's mother would have been born in Aldeshar considering her father was it's king. However I know they don't necessarily follow.

 

Another strange point I  need to consider is on page 159 in the same book. "His initial treatment of Aldeshar, the last nation to fall to him was certainly cruel: no prisoners taken in a number of battles, the displacement of nearly the whole population to other parts of the empire, the confiscation of all estates with the whole nobility and the entire merchant class reduced to penury and scattered to every corner of the empire." Then further down the same page it states "At her (Tamika) behest relented in his treatment of Aldeshar, allowing the people to return, restoring confiscated estates and titles" 

 

Now while he restored the nobles estates and titles, what did he do with the royal family? He couldn't restore them as Aldeshar didn't exist any more? Maybe he made the kings daughter the governor of the region which included Aldeshar in an attempt to restore the royal family to some kind of power in the same way he restored the estates and titles of Aldeshar's nobles. We can only speculate unless this question has been answered somewhere else

 

Regarding Ishara having a military force of her own, I find this unlikely considering the statement above regarding soldiers stationed within Andor bearing Ishara or her mother no loyalty and it being impossible for Ishara or her mother to have built a base of personal power. Going on the statement from RJ's book, although there could have been a nation yearning for independence, they didn't have the military stationed within the land loyal to the land to help Ishara secure it as all Aldesharan soldiers would have been stationed elsewhere in the empire as per Hawkwing's rules. Therefore based on this I can only make the assumption that Ishara based her claim for the throne using the backing of Maravaile's military might and skills. This in turn leads me back to my opinion that Maravaile was the founding father of Andor in the same way as Ishara was the founding mother. Ishara handled the politics while Maravaile handled the military aspects.

 

Finally on the Ishara discussion, I think that WoT Wiki has this particular item correct which is what I was trying to get at last night, although we could debate the relative accuracy of the whole of the WoT Wiki forever. I think my thoughts on it are that the Wiki does have a lot of info on it, most of it correct but the details should be cross checked before I rely on them completely.

 

I think we should agree to disagree on our respective opinions on Elayne as there are as many opinions on all the characters as there are stars in the galaxy. The characters are so well written and 3 dimensional we can all see different things in them and due to our personal circumstances, something which might really grate on me may not bother many other people.

 

I do enjoy a good, well reasoned intelligent debate and this is one about the founding of Andor is one of the most enjoyable I've had in a long while. :)

[Barid Bel Medar]

While I too enjoy reading about the history of Andor (I am not being facetious), how does it have any bearing on Elayne and her personality? It shows that the historians and perhaps Ishara were unfair to her husband, however, that's nothing to do with Elayne. She doesn't promote this kind of thing, it is just a product of the history. 

 

It's not her fault that a man can't give Andor to anyone or the Houses will be in an uproar. It's not her fault history left out the good General and placed Ishara on a pedestal - right or wrong- it is not Elayne's fault. She is merely reacting to the truth - unjust or not, she can't change it. Simple fact that because of the history, she would be ripped to shreds if she allowed anyone - especially a man to give her the Lion Throne. In fact, she shows that she is not against Rand giving thrones because he is a man, or for any other reason. She uses Rand's help to win the Sun Throne because unlike Andor, the Cairhienin don't have such traditions as Andor. 

 

As for your other points, the ones that have been addressed by others I won't go into futher, and you are entitled to your opinion on Elayne's personality. The easiest way is just to say "she is an annoying person I wouldn't like to meet." 

 

So I am all for having a debate about Andor's founding and the potential historical unfairness of it all, but perhaps create a new thread so as not to derail this one. 

[zerachiel76]

While I too enjoy reading about the history of Andor (I am not being facetious), how does it have any bearing on Elayne and her personality? It shows that the historians and perhaps Ishara were unfair to her husband, however, that's nothing to do with Elayne. She doesn't promote this kind of thing, it is just a product of the history. 

 

It's not her fault that a man can't give Andor to anyone or the Houses will be in an uproar. It's not her fault history left out the good General and placed Ishara on a pedestal - right or wrong- it is not Elayne's fault. She is merely reacting to the truth - unjust or not, she can't change it. Simple fact that because of the history, she would be ripped to shreds if she allowed anyone - especially a man to give her the Lion Throne. In fact, she shows that she is not against Rand giving thrones because he is a man, or for any other reason. She uses Rand's help to win the Sun Throne because unlike Andor, the Cairhienin don't have such traditions as Andor. 

 

As for your other points, the ones that have been addressed by others I won't go into futher, and you are entitled to your opinion on Elayne's personality. The easiest way is just to say "she is an annoying person I wouldn't like to meet." 

 

So I am all for having a debate about Andor's founding and the potential historical unfairness of it all, but perhaps create a new thread so as not to derail this one. 

Fair enough, it was such an interesting debate though I got a little carried away with the historical thing which was in the beginning related to my point but moved further and further away from it as the discussion continued. I like your summary about my feelings for Elayne, that really made me chuckle. Direct and to the point :)

[David Selig]

Her disrespect to Rand, despite knowing who he is. She might end up loving him but she treats him like dirt and an inferior when he's clearly not.

Let's see - Elayne risked her life for Rand a number of times (Tanchico, Falme), she risked getting in trouble with her mother and Elaida to defend him in EOTW, she tried to help him learn to control the One Power, she taught him the basics of governing and politics, she gave Rand her blessing to have a relationship with two other hot women...I bet most guys would be happy to find a woman who "disrespects" them in such a way, even if they have to endure minor stuff like the confusing letters.

 

 When has she ever treated him as an inferior, BTW, except in EOTW when the difference in their social ranks was huge? And even then she was really nice to him. Next time she saw him she insisted he stopped calling her "my Lady" and pointed out he's higher ranked than her now " “If you call me that again, I shall call you my Lord Dragon. And curtsy. Even the Queen of Andor might curtsy to you, and I am only Daughter-Heir.”

[JimboSlice]

I think she is annoying because she is selfconcieted and self centered. She thinks she is awesome and everyone should look at her and admire her awesomeness. 'How dare he look at me like that, I am queen.'

 

Admittedly though, she is better than Egwene.

[Ozzie_aiel]

I think she is annoying because she is selfconcieted and self centered. She thinks she is awesome and everyone should look at her and admire her awesomeness. 'How dare he look at me like that, I am queen.'

 

Admittedly though, she is better than Egwene.

She is self assured, yes. But given her upbringing can you blame her? I can't remember the exact phrase but it was along the line of "She grew up being told whatever she wanted would happen in a place where it did." So yes, Elaine can can be really up herself but she isn't the spoiled brat everyone makes her out to be. She honestly cares about other people.

 

Reading Arymillas POV will show you what a real spoiled brat is like.

[Ryrin]

I really like Elayne.  I don't think she "puts on airs" just for the sake of doing so.  I think she has ingrained her mother's teachings about how to lead and she's attempting to be a strong leader not only for Andor but for the last battle.

 

I also think she takes her friendships seriously and is loyal and brave, if somewhat brash.