Elayne's personality

[David Selig]

I don't see how Perrin and Elayne meeting and discussing the Two Rivers situation was detrimental for the preparation for the Last Battle. If they had started a war - sure, but resolving it peacefully was beneficial for everyone. Besides, the meeting was Perrin's idea - he asked for it. What was Elayne supposed to say "I am too busy preparing for the LB 24/7, get back to me after it's done?"

 

As for Cairhien, Rand wanted Elayne in charge in there. She had one of the best claims by blood. She took the Throne peacefully and quickly. Again, how is this detrimental for the preparation for the LB again?

[YourNewDragonAndGod]

I'm neutral on Elayne. She is really good at doing really stupid things. One of the things she really needs to learn is that Birgitte is not wrong just because she disagrees with her. Birgitte has lots of experience and Elayne needs to take in and use that experience to make herself a better queen and leader. In either KoD or WH there is a good quote from a Seanchan officer. (I can't find it) It goes along the lines of, a good general does not stand in the front lines. If Elayne never stood in the front lines and excepted the fact that she needed to survive instead of going off on adventures, there would be a lot less face palming and a lot more respect for her. Also it doesn't help that as the series goes on RJ/BS portray the Aes Sedai in a worse and worse light. Elayne is a great character, but would be better if she did not allow bias to get in her way. Just as it gets in our way on these forums.

[YourNewDragonAndGod]

I have something more to add after reading more of this discussion. The only thing I really hate about the plot line is the fact that Elayne has to fight for the throne that is rightfully hers. How many thousands died in that war? How many thousands that can now not fight at TG? Why the hell couldn't the Andoran nobles look towards the Last Battle? They know its coming. If they have a problem with who leads Andor they could have solved it afterwards. Don't give Elayne enough suport for the throne but don't go into Civil War over it. It makes me want to hit something when I think of the stupidity of it.

[Viperswhip]

I don't see how Perrin and Elayne meeting and discussing the Two Rivers situation was detrimental for the preparation for the Last Battle. If they had started a war - sure, but resolving it peacefully was beneficial for everyone. Besides, the meeting was Perrin's idea - he asked for it. What was Elayne supposed to say "I am too busy preparing for the LB 24/7, get back to me after it's done?"

 

As for Cairhien, Rand wanted Elayne in charge in there. She had one of the best claims by blood. She took the Throne peacefully and quickly. Again, how is this detrimental for the preparation for the LB again?

 

Ya, we are just having fun speculating on a battle scenario, I doubt anyone seriously thinks Elayne would have let it come to that, or Perrin for that matter. He is aimed squarely at TG and maintaining the status of the Two Rivers is probably secondary.

[Viperswhip]

I have something more to add after reading more of this discussion. The only thing I really hate about the plot line is the fact that Elayne has to fight for the throne that is rightfully hers. How many thousands died in that war? How many thousands that can now not fight at TG? Why the hell couldn't the Andoran nobles look towards the Last Battle? They know its coming. If they have a problem with who leads Andor they could have solved it afterwards. Don't give Elayne enough suport for the throne but don't go into Civil War over it. It makes me want to hit something when I think of the stupidity of it.

 

Well, I guess we were supposed to think that Rhavin had done more damage to the internal politics. Due to civil unrest even Morgasses reign of power was experiencing a bit of difficulty before she fled. We also have BA stirring up the pot and getting some nobles believing that they should be the Queen. Dyelin believes that Elayne is probably the only viable monarch, I guess we are led to believe that she wasn't around Camelyn at the time so Rhavin didn't destroy her relationship with Trakand, or maybe she just wants to go along with the Dragon's wishes without saying it. She is kind of Dobraine like, so that may be the case.

 

Either way, it sounds like when a reign is interrupted there is always a succession issue there. Morgasse didn't inherit the crown, so it wasn't like a dynasty. Elayne didn't want any outside help to gain the crown, though she did use the Borderland army for her own plot. So, even if Elaida was secure in the White Tower and there was no split, she probably still would have tried to do it the hard way. In fact, both Tower factions and the Dragon want her in power, but none of those factions are focused on helping her. If they had, Elayne would have slipped into a power that would have been granted by outside forces.

 

To a degree you are right, but the BA and Rhavin made the situation far less clear.

[Suttree]

To a degree you are right, but the BA and Rhavin made the situation far less clear.

 

This.

[Morden]

I always assumed that the Andoran Monarchy was some sort of binary system, a blend of support from the houses coupled with the strongest dynastic claim.

 

Take for instance if Tigraine had not gone to the waste, but had been a dribbling idiot who would have ruined the nation, she would have had the dynastic claim, but not the support from the houses. You need both to rule Andor no matter how blue your blood is. Myself I think the only thing Elayne did wrong regarding Rand saving her kingdom was not getting down on her hands and knees and thanking him.. though she might well have done that in another way...

 

But still she's never publicly thanked Rand for saving her nation from the forsaken, and neither have the rest of them.

 

Also, Perrins army is about 70k or so as of when he went to Andor, most of them former Gai'shan who were apparently learning at a remarkable rate and who were incredibly tough due to how harsh their treatment was by the Shaido. In short they are learning in a similar manner as Rand and Perrin learned which is most likely due to Ta'veren same as how the two rivers went from being woodsmen to being able to field lines of archers who all have almost equal capabilities.

 

Man for man they are strong, and in overall better health than most as Perrin has a lot easier time finding food again due to being Ta'veren than most of Elaynes nobles. Does that mean he could win a one on one stand up fight? probably not but it would likely destroy Andor in the process due to loss of farmers and the emnity of the people in the Two Rivers.

 

However in her defence, its not like he went to her when he was still refusing the title, had he said "I never declared myself, damn it woman i was the next best thing to dead and unconscious when they raised those banners and ive been telling them to take them down for months. But if i am what they want then you explain to them why they are wrong." In her own way shes blinded by nobility, but much less so than many many others.

[Viperswhip]

He had no way to find her before they bonded him. He thought she was with the rebel Aes Sedai, way too dangerous to approach personally, so he sent Mat, who also mishandled the situation in the same way Egwene had.

 

After that he didn't know where she was. He could never explain the situation and by the time he saw her again it seemed like she had forgiven any missteps because, well, you know, sexy times.

[Maleshub]

Elayne is the product and victim of sheltered nobility. She grew up in the Royal Palace, surrounded by courtiers, courtesans, tutors, and servants. She was sheltered and pampered. Her emotional development seemed to be lacking at the start of the series. She's never been in love, while Egwene (e.g. only) had had a relationship for a couple of years at that age. She sees Rand for an hour and falls in love with him. Just reminds me of early adolescence crushes! Her reaction to learning Thom was her mother's lover was to try and measure up against her mother and for a short time flirt with Thom. Her emotional "underdevelopment" is not a fault; but part of her personality.

 

Gareth Bryne and Thom Merrilin have described her as "impulsive." She (and Gawyn) think with their hearts, follow their hearts, and consider the consequences later. She's young, brave to the brink of recklessness, and impulsive. That's a very explosive mix that Daughter-Heir training should have moderated to more stable levels. But that isn't the case. Take for example her high rope walking risk. Why? Just choose a less risky stunt right from the start.

 

Finally, Elayne seems to be the weakest link in her relationships: Nynaeve, Egwene, Aviendha. She recognizes Nynaeve as the leader from the get-go till the very end when Nynaeve leaves with Rand to Far Madding. She stays put as Nynaeve's follower except when Nynaeve decides to take a break before retaking the helm. Egwene trumps her with her Aiel WO training and outshines her when she is raised Amyrlin. Egwene's strength of character, even in non formal situations puts Elayne in her shadow. And when it comes to Aviendha, Elayne adapts to Aviendha much more than Aviendha adapts to her to make their relationship with Rand work. Elayne is anxious to make Aviendha proud of her much more than Aviendha is worried about conforming to Elayne's view of the world. Elayne goes Aiel much more than Aviendha being affected by Andoran customs.

[Viperswhip]

Recognizing your weaknesses and adapting is normally considered a good thing. She did fight with Nynaeve, a lot, back before they got to the Rebel Aes Sedai, she probably never wanted to go through that again. It's not like Nynaeve was trying to rule Andor.

[David Selig]

She recognizes Nynaeve as the leader from the get-go till the very end when Nynaeve leaves with Rand to Far Madding. She stays put as Nynaeve's follower except when Nynaeve decides to take a break before retaking the helm.

This is simply not true. The only time Nynaeve was clearly the leader was in Falme. Then she was the only one behaving like an adult by being the peacemaker when Nynaeve and Egwene spent the whole of TDR fighting which of them to be in charge. They were equal partners for sure after they left Tear in TSR. One of the reasons I like their storylines and relationship. One of the very few cases in WoT where people worked together as equals and complemented each other without obsessing who's in charge and fighting over it.

 

But that isn't the case. Take for example her high rope walking risk. Why? Just choose a less risky stunt right from the start.

Because it's hilarious. Uno's comment "Face like a bloody Queen" kills me every time.The whole circus sequence is partly tongue-in-cheek. Plus with One Power available for help, the risk for her was minimal.

 

And when it comes to Aviendha, Elayne adapts to Aviendha much more than Aviendha adapts to her to make their relationship with Rand work. Elayne is anxious to make Aviendha proud of her much more than Aviendha is worried about conforming to Elayne's view of the world. Elayne goes Aiel much more than Aviendha being affected by Andoran customs.

I don't see it this way. It was Aviendha supporting and helping Elayne in her tasks for 5 books, not the other way round. Sure, Elayne adapts to some of the Aiel customs because they fit the best to her situation with Rand, but she had hardly started thinking like an Aiel. And when we get more Avi's PoV, she thinks about Elayne and what she has taught and shown her, a lot, and tries to learn to think like her on a more global scale as a leader. They've both adapted to each other and learned from each other without losing their core personality traits and this is a good thing.

[mike hunt's here]

i'll be honest. when the chapter art gives any hint of the chapter belonging to Elayne (especially during the whole succession thing) I went into skim reading mode so maybe I didnt get to fully appreciate her character.

 

but here are my "reasons" for having some dislike towards her:

 

1. arrogance - could be partyly Eg's fault - in TSR, trying to teach rand Saidin. I loved that scene for Rand tying them up and melting everything.

2. dont know the word, but as a queen/princess, etc - she shouldnt be going off and making out with commoners in the stone of tear and then getting pregos. Egs at least made Gawyn sleep outside her rooms.

3. seflish - when she learned her mom was alive. Not "yay, my mom is alive!!!" instead we have "oh no, does she want my throne???"

4. the whole perrin scene - i dont need another debate - for me that scene just sucked because in real life - theres no way the best friend of the Dragon will end up getting hung. Unless of course this was a Game of Thrones book maybe...

5. the toh she had towards mat and needed Avi to understand. Granted she understood, but without Avi - she would not have is my bet. I even think she probably only went along to placate Avi.

6. reckless - all the BA scenes....

 

I dont want to debate, I just thought I want to say my peace. David Selig - if you disagree with me - thats your prerogative. As is it mine to express my own. I am an American. hahaha.

[damandred]

everything above is a load of crap thats my opinion.........dont want a debate

[Viperswhip]

everything above is a load of crap thats my opinion.........dont want a debate

 

Haha, okay, well there are plenty of different takes up there, what specifically are you objecting to? lol Whatever, it's a valid opinion, I suppose, but I have no idea what you feel about Elayne based on what you wrote.

[Suttree]

everything above is a load of crap thats my opinion.........dont want a debate

 

Haha, okay, well there are plenty of different takes up there, what specifically are you objecting to? l

 

He was referring to the post directly above him...

[BFG]

Thought I'd inject a different opinion, read or dismiss as you choose

 

i'll be honest. when the chapter art gives any hint of the chapter belonging to Elayne (especially during the whole succession thing) I went into skim reading mode so maybe I didnt get to fully appreciate her character.

 

but here are my "reasons" for having some dislike towards her:

 

1. arrogance - could be partyly Eg's fault - in TSR, trying to teach rand Saidin. I loved that scene for Rand tying them up and melting everything.

2. dont know the word, but as a queen/princess, etc - she shouldnt be going off and making out with commoners in the stone of tear and then getting pregos. Egs at least made Gawyn sleep outside her rooms.

3. seflish - when she learned her mom was alive. Not "yay, my mom is alive!!!" instead we have "oh no, does she want my throne???"

4. the whole perrin scene - i dont need another debate - for me that scene just sucked because in real life - theres no way the best friend of the Dragon will end up getting hung. Unless of course this was a Game of Thrones book maybe...

5. the toh she had towards mat and needed Avi to understand. Granted she understood, but without Avi - she would not have is my bet. I even think she probably only went along to placate Avi.

6. reckless - all the BA scenes....

 

I dont want to debate, I just thought I want to say my peace. David Selig - if you disagree with me - thats your prerogative. As is it mine to express my own. I am an American. hahaha.

 

1. Scene in Tear, where her and Eg try to help Rand, yes it's pointless and yes it's a waste of time - so was healing stilling, making Cuendillar, making ter'angreal, healing madness - right up until they were done. They cared enough to try, that's generally a good thing - Rand tying them up was funny tho.

 

2. So you'd prefer a helpless maiden in the Tower? Even in story their are several societies that are open about sex - the Aiel, Mayene and Altarans are just 3 examples, even the Cairhien are only reserved in private. Mat's a skirt-chaser, do you have the same problem there?

 

3. Horribly selfish to not want to potentially go through another war of sucession that would result in the death of even more bystanders.

 

4. No debate, but as has been stated she was never going to hang him, Perrin never thought she was going to hang him, Faile and Morgase never thought she was going to hang him.

 

5. Yet she learned quickly from that. After the gholam attack she thanked him straight away and acknowledged the debt. Character growth for you. Also look at her reunion with Mat in Caemlyn, the way she wanted to go back for him when the Seanchan attacked - she proves herself a true friend several times in the books.

 

6. There are a lot of BA scenes, their was walking into the trap in Tear with Nyn and Eg, for which I can find little excuse. Masking herself as a Forsaken which was stupid, but the second plan confronting them in their house was actually a good one.

 

 

Elayne has made mistakes, she has been thoughtless - but generally she learns from them. She's been brought up to believe that she has to be braver than others around her, that a good Queen is ready to lead people into battle, she hasn't leared fully yet from the Generals that that doesn't mean literally.

[mike hunt's here]

1. they cared enough to try? That's right, I forgot they were full fledged Aes Sedai at that time and could succeed where no one else had previously in 3000 years. Arrogance.

 

2. I'm male. Mat is a skirt chaser, but still holds to Two River's values - im thinking victorian era stuff. As far as I can tell, Elayne is the only ruler being slutty. Berelain is a tease...Tylin is a cougar, but behind closed doors. Anyone else? Maybe slutty is too strong a word.

 

3. As I said, i didnt care about the war of succession. To be frankly honest, i dont recall any actual "fighting." Of course though...I'm of the opinion that Rand gave her the title and that should have been the end of that. Side note - if my mother that i thought dead, appeared in fine health - i would forget all thats going on in the world - at least for the first 10 minutes or so of our reunion. But I'm selfish that way. I love my mom.

 

4. Where in the books does it actually say she wasnt going to hang him? Thats speculative. So this argument could go on and on.

 

5. i dont really care.

 

6. I dont really care.

 

This is the internet. you can say whatever you want to behind your avatar. If you think its crap, thats fine, thats your opinion. If I offend, i'm sorry. Don't read. Im not forcing this upon anyone. gosh. so touchy. sniff.

[mike hunt's here]

everything above is a load of crap thats my opinion.........dont want a debate

 

isnt this type of posting against the rules? Are you calling me a liar?

[Suttree]

3. As I said, i didnt care about the war of succession. To be frankly honest, i dont recall any actual "fighting." Of course though...I'm of the opinion that Rand gave her the title and that should have been the end of that. .

 

On the contrary not only was there fighting but Rand made her job much more difficult by saying he was going to "give" her the throne. It was made very clear that had Elayne said she was excepting the throne from him, Dyelin would not have backed her. It would have been a disaster and far bloodier succession had she done so. Elayne had to earn those votes on her own. Even Bashere spelled out quite clearly why Elayne couldn't receive help from Rand.

 

As for the hanging there is nothing speculative about it. She never had any real intention of doing so. Go back and read the section if you are forgetting how things played out.

[Drakkon]

1. they cared enough to try? That's right, I forgot they were full fledged Aes Sedai at that time and could succeed where no one else had previously in 3000 years. Arrogance.

3. As I said, i didnt care about the war of succession. To be frankly honest, i dont recall any actual "fighting." Of course though...I'm of the opinion that Rand gave her the title and that should have been the end of that. Side note - if my mother that i thought dead, appeared in fine health - i would forget all thats going on in the world - at least for the first 10 minutes or so of our reunion. But I'm selfish that way. I love my mom.

4. Where in the books does it actually say she wasnt going to hang him? Thats speculative. So this argument could go on and on.

 

I am just going to touch on these three for now

 

1. Huh? There desire to do things that they were told were impossible is why they have now healed stealing, created ter'angreal, healed madness, discovered traveling, etc. There was a point to this "Arrogance". Just because they failed at one thing doesn't negate the fact that this was an important step in moving the plot.

3. OF course there was fighting, if you do not remember any fighting go back and read the parts right before she won the crown. As for her mother showing up, it could cause issues. Morgase doesn't have the power right now, Elayne does. There are many who support Elayne that would not support Morgase. Thus having the ability to drive Andor into another succession war. She could not "accept" the crown from Rand with out causing war.

4. I do not remember this part in detail, but I think it was clear she was not going to hang him.

 

I can not believe I took the time to defend Elayne...I must be coming down with something.

 

I think that many of her actions were justified, some even the right actions to take. But this does not mean I have to like Elayne. My biggest complaint about Elayne is that she does not feel like she has grown much. Sure she has grown some, but not enough for all the time spent on her. She comes across as very immature. Even Perrin grows more than she does, and most of his plot line was filler. She rubs me the wrong way, and is the type of person who I would not go out of my way to get to know. The way we feel about people (even made up characters in a book) are not always logical or something that can easily be put into words.

[mike hunt's here]

3. As I said, i didnt care about the war of succession. To be frankly honest, i dont recall any actual "fighting." Of course though...I'm of the opinion that Rand gave her the title and that should have been the end of that. .

 

On the contrary not only was there fighting but Rand made her job much more difficult by saying he was going to "give" her the throne. It was made very clear that had Elayne said she was excepting the throne from him, Dyelin would not have backed her. It would have been a disaster and far bloodier succession had she done so. Elayne had to earn those votes on her own. Even Bashere spelled out quite clearly why Elayne couldn't receive help from Rand.

 

As for the hanging there is nothing speculative about it. She never had any real intention of doing so. Go back and read the section if you are forgetting how things played out.

 

I think you got me wrong - i say its speculative that she would NOT hang him. She never says hanging was just an idle threat. Its a legitimate threat. Or maybe speculative is not the word I want....sorry for my poor thesaurus.

 

also - yes, i know the whole andor politics thing blah blah, but i want to be a hater and just hate her anyway. I am person that prefers main characters to be "male," not a big hermione fan, or arya or sansa or blah blah. thats just me.

[Maleshub]

She recognizes Nynaeve as the leader from the get-go till the very end when Nynaeve leaves with Rand to Far Madding. She stays put as Nynaeve's follower except when Nynaeve decides to take a break before retaking the helm.

This is simply not true. The only time Nynaeve was clearly the leader was in Falme. Then she was the only one behaving like an adult by being the peacemaker when Nynaeve and Egwene spent the whole of TDR fighting which of them to be in charge. They were equal partners for sure after they left Tear in TSR. One of the reasons I like their storylines and relationship. One of the very few cases in WoT where people worked together as equals and complemented each other without obsessing who's in charge and fighting over it.

 

My recollection and understanding is that Nynaeve was the leader in Falme, the leader of the BA hunt in Tanchico, the leader during the return trip from Tanchico, the leader in Ebou Dar, and the AS leader in Caemlyn (she took the decision to free Alivia from the a'dam). Elayne confirms Nynaeve's leadership status in the following quote in TPoD: "You’re an Aes Sedai, and you are supposed to be leading us. Lead! And think!" Sure it isn't the leadership style Rand is using on the Tairens and Cairhienin; it is more of a leader among equals. Still, Nynaeve is the leader between them.

 

But that isn't the case. Take for example her high rope walking risk. Why? Just choose a less risky stunt right from the start.

Because it's hilarious. Uno's comment "Face like a bloody Queen" kills me every time.The whole circus sequence is partly tongue-in-cheek. Plus with One Power available for help, the risk for her was minimal.

 

If I remember correctly, Elayne performed without the OP in Somara.

 

Recognizing your weaknesses and adapting is normally considered a good thing. She did fight with Nynaeve, a lot, back before they got to the Rebel Aes Sedai, she probably never wanted to go through that again. It's not like Nynaeve was trying to rule Andor.

 

I was referring to Nynaeve leading between them in their tasks assigned by Siuan and Egwene; nothing to do with Andor.

[Suttree]

If I remember correctly, Elayne performed without the OP in Somara.

 

TFoH

Juilin crumpled that cylindrical hat in his hands, then crammed it back onto his head as she began climbing one of the rope ladders, having a little difficulty with her skirts. Nynaeve knew what the girl was doing. The men should have, and perhaps Thom did, at least, but he still looked ready to rush over to catch her if she fell. Luca moved nearer, as though the same thought was in his head.

For a moment Elayne stood on the platform, smoothing her dress. The platform looked much smaller, and higher, with her on it. Then, delicately holding her skirts up as if to keep them out of mud, she stepped out onto the narrow rope. She might as well have been walking across a street. In a way, Nynaeve knew, she was. She could not see the glow of saidar, but she knew that Elayne had woven a path between the two platforms, of Air, no doubt, turned hard as stone.

 

If she did do the tricks without the OP later it was only because she had trained enough and was totally confident in her abilities. Also one must remember she was forced to not channel since they were trying to escape the notice of Moghe at the time...

 

TFoH Ch. 37

 

Elayne made her way out onto the rope, arms outstretched to either side, and she was not channeling a platform of Air. Slowly she stepped her way across, one foot in front of the other, never wavering, supported only by the rope. Channeling would be far too dangerous if Moghedien had even a clue to where they were; the Forsaken or Black sisters could be in Samara, and they would be able to feel the weave. And if they were not in Samara now, they might be soon. On the far platform, Elayne paused to considerably more applause than Juilin had received – Nynaeve could not understand that – and started back. Almost to the end, she pivoted smoothly, walked back halfway, pivoted again. And wobbled, just catching herself. Nynaeve felt as though a hand had her by the throat. At a slow steady pace, Elayne high-walked to the platform, once more posing to thunderous shouts and clapping.

[damandred]

everything above is a load of crap thats my opinion.........dont want a debate

 

isnt this type of posting against the rules? Are you calling me a liar?

 

 

i dont know if my post was against the rules, but i think it summed up very well what i thought of your post.

I think that out of the main female charactors Elayne is surprisingly (given her rank) one of the least arrogant. The whole teaching rand thing if i remember right was largley egg's idea, but also discovered that men could tell if a woman channelled, ie the goosebump thing.

As for the morgase is alive does she want my thone i read it more as have i done wrong taking the thone?

kissing commoners in the stone? O you meen the dragon reborn? about the least common man ever. he so common that no one else has been able to handle the sword in the stone for 3 thousand years, yeah just and average joe. i could go on about your other point but frankley cwnt be bothered.

 

[removed personal attack]

 

 

 

 

[Barid Bel Medar]

You can express your opinion, although I would not phrase it like that in the future.

 

However, you cannot call someone a fool. That is against the rules. I would suggest you refrain from doing so in the future.