The aMoL 'Memories of Light' Releases

[BFG]

^ Not sure what my views are as to democracy in Randland, but Rand has taken a step back from politics. He's stated that he won't be leading the armies to the Last Battle and I assume that this is extended to politics.

[fionwe1987]

^ Not sure what my views are as to democracy in Randland, but Rand has taken a step back from politics. He's stated that he won't be leading the armies to the Last Battle and I assume that this is extended to politics.

Plus, I see a great deal wrong with someone like the Dragon Reborn imposing democracy.

[BFG]

^would certainly be ironic :D

[Terez]

 

 

I don't think their's anything to suggest that democracy is going to enter Randland as a result of anything Rand does, if it does at all.

 

Quite the opposite. RJ was not a great fan of democracy, calling himself a 'monarchist'. He might have been being facetious, but there are practically zero hints in the books that he thinks democracy is a good idea outside villages and the like. I gather he is one of those people who is of the opinion that democracy creates needless bureaucracy. Of course, absolutism is only a good alternative if you happen to have a wise ruler.

 

I think there's plenty of hints that democracy is good, and a healthy dose of disdain for nobility and monarchies. Quite apart from villages, the White Tower is a democracy, of sorts, but one steeped in too many archaic laws and bureaucracy till Egwene came along. There's a lot of different places where the importance of checks and balances on power is either mentioned or strongly implied. The concept of a noble class is given a heavy amount of disdain, especially in Mat's PoV, but its there everywhere. 

 

I wouldn't take any of this to mean a sudden turn to democracy. But with the coming steam trains and cannon, I wouldn't be shockingly surprised either.

 

 

1. The White Tower is not a democracy. They have a ruler (Amyrlin) and a ruling body (Hall) but they don't vote on anything Tower-wide.

2. Checks and balances are not democracy. They are an element of a logically-structured democracy, but democracy is defined by popular vote.

3. Some characters have a disdain for nobles, but that doesn't equate to an endorsement of democracy by any stretch of the imagination.

4. What do steam trains and cannons have to do with democracy?

[b3arz3rg3r]

 

^ Not sure what my views are as to democracy in Randland, but Rand has taken a step back from politics. He's stated that he won't be leading the armies to the Last Battle and I assume that this is extended to politics.

Plus, I see a great deal wrong with someone like the Dragon Reborn imposing democracy.

 

 

 

@b3arz3rg3r - the Ashaman are, but what about male channelers amongst the Aiel, the Seafolk or the Seanchan? The Aiel are arguably the most open to change, the Seafolk have shown open relucatance (which in the text annoys (to understate) Rand somewhat. The Seanchan would just go to a bigger problem.

 

I'm open to a different option to 'fight teh last battle' however :)

 

1) Dragon's Peace

 

2) We have seen that Rand doesn't like the aristocracy so perhaps since he knows everything LTT knew something which sets all those monarchies on the way towards democracy. The institutions of a house of commons through an election for example.

 

I know you can't create a top down democracy, but with his ta'veren effect he could very well spark the ideas of freedom, liberty and equality in all those who are assembled there which could lead to democratic revolutions over time.

 

3) If the Aiel settle in the lands west of the Dragonwall I think they'll need accepted borders or they'll have to fight for them. Probably lands between the Borderlands and Andor/Cairhien since that is the largest unclaimed peace of land and it keeps them as far as possible from the Seanchan.

 

If not the establishment of some sort of council where the various nations meet to deal with any sort of conflict which may arise despite the Dragon's peace with the Asha'man as the enforcers of the will of the council. Though there would have to be safeguards against misuse of that power.

 

Or Rand could put the deathpenalty on sniffing, fist-on-hips-planting and braid-pulling. That is probably the most effective means to enforce the Dragon's Peace anyways.

 

 

 

I don't think their's anything to suggest that democracy is going to enter Randland as a result of anything Rand does, if it does at all.

 

 

 

The Aiel lands are possible - the three demands are likely to be after Avi speaks of her visions, but this would seem to ask something of some people and not others.

 

 

 

@b3arz3rg3r - the Ashaman are, but what about male channelers amongst the Aiel, the Seafolk or the Seanchan? The Aiel are arguably the most open to change, the Seafolk have shown open relucatance (which in the text annoys (to understate) Rand somewhat. The Seanchan would just go to a bigger problem.

 

I'm open to a different option to 'fight teh last battle' however :)

 

1) Dragon's Peace

 

2) We have seen that Rand doesn't like the aristocracy so perhaps since he knows everything LTT knew something which sets all those monarchies on the way towards democracy. The institutions of a house of commons through an election for example.

 

I know you can't create a top down democracy, but with his ta'veren effect he could very well spark the ideas of freedom, liberty and equality in all those who are assembled there which could lead to democratic revolutions over time.

 

3) If the Aiel settle in the lands west of the Dragonwall I think they'll need accepted borders or they'll have to fight for them. Probably lands between the Borderlands and Andor/Cairhien since that is the largest unclaimed peace of land and it keeps them as far as possible from the Seanchan.

 

If not the establishment of some sort of council where the various nations meet to deal with any sort of conflict which may arise despite the Dragon's peace with the Asha'man as the enforcers of the will of the council. Though there would have to be safeguards against misuse of that power.

 

Or Rand could put the deathpenalty on sniffing, fist-on-hips-planting and braid-pulling. That is probably the most effective means to enforce the Dragon's Peace anyways.

 

 

 

I don't think their's anything to suggest that democracy is going to enter Randland as a result of anything Rand does, if it does at all.

 

 

 

The Aiel lands are possible - the three demands are likely to be after Avi speaks of her visions, but this would seem to ask something of some people and not others.

 

 

I know the whole democratic mindset thing is a shot in the dark, but I really didn't come up with anything else Rand could demand from the nations of the world. We know he won't demand anything for himself, he tries to do right by people. It should be something in the same vein as the Dragon's Peace.

 

 

I don't think their's anything to suggest that democracy is going to enter Randland as a result of anything Rand does, if it does at all.

 

Quite the opposite. RJ was not a great fan of democracy, calling himself a 'monarchist'. He might have been being facetious, but there are practically zero hints in the books that he thinks democracy is a good idea outside villages and the like. I gather he is one of those people who is of the opinion that democracy creates needless bureaucracy. Of course, absolutism is only a good alternative if you happen to have a wise ruler.

 

 

Absolutism doesn't just require the wise ruler it also requires wise vassals and obedient citizens.

 

 

 

I don't think their's anything to suggest that democracy is going to enter Randland as a result of anything Rand does, if it does at all.

 

Quite the opposite. RJ was not a great fan of democracy, calling himself a 'monarchist'. He might have been being facetious, but there are practically zero hints in the books that he thinks democracy is a good idea outside villages and the like. I gather he is one of those people who is of the opinion that democracy creates needless bureaucracy. Of course, absolutism is only a good alternative if you happen to have a wise ruler.

 

I think there's plenty of hints that democracy is good, and a healthy dose of disdain for nobility and monarchies. Quite apart from villages, the White Tower is a democracy, of sorts, but one steeped in too many archaic laws and bureaucracy till Egwene came along. There's a lot of different places where the importance of checks and balances on power is either mentioned or strongly implied. The concept of a noble class is given a heavy amount of disdain, especially in Mat's PoV, but its there everywhere. 

 

The Aes Sedai aren't a democracy. It's just another kind of oligarchy.

 

 

 

^ Not sure what my views are as to democracy in Randland, but Rand has taken a step back from politics. He's stated that he won't be leading the armies to the Last Battle and I assume that this is extended to politics.

Plus, I see a great deal wrong with someone like the Dragon Reborn imposing democracy.

 

 

 

Good thing then, that I didn't say he was going to impose democracy, but merely proposed that he set them on the road towards democracy. In Randland the whole democratic mindset is missing. Without that any democracy is doomed to be even worse than the current monarchies.

[Sentinel78]

 

 

 

I don't think their's anything to suggest that democracy is going to enter Randland as a result of anything Rand does, if it does at all.

 

Quite the opposite. RJ was not a great fan of democracy, calling himself a 'monarchist'. He might have been being facetious, but there are practically zero hints in the books that he thinks democracy is a good idea outside villages and the like. I gather he is one of those people who is of the opinion that democracy creates needless bureaucracy. Of course, absolutism is only a good alternative if you happen to have a wise ruler.

 

I think there's plenty of hints that democracy is good, and a healthy dose of disdain for nobility and monarchies. Quite apart from villages, the White Tower is a democracy, of sorts, but one steeped in too many archaic laws and bureaucracy till Egwene came along. There's a lot of different places where the importance of checks and balances on power is either mentioned or strongly implied. The concept of a noble class is given a heavy amount of disdain, especially in Mat's PoV, but its there everywhere. 

 

I wouldn't take any of this to mean a sudden turn to democracy. But with the coming steam trains and cannon, I wouldn't be shockingly surprised either.

 

 

1. The White Tower is not a democracy. They have a ruler (Amyrlin) and a ruling body (Hall) but they don't vote on anything Tower-wide.

2. Checks and balances are not democracy. They are an element of a logically-structured democracy, but democracy is defined by popular vote.

3. Some characters have a disdain for nobles, but that doesn't equate to an endorsement of democracy by any stretch of the imagination.

4. What do steam trains and cannons have to do with democracy?

 

 

With regard to #4,I think b3arz3rg3r (that's really tough to type btw) was alluding to technological breakthroughs contributing in part to the end of feudalism in Europe which helped the conditions for democracy.  Overall, the black plague helped to end feudalism more than anything else (worker scarcity caused different towns to start trying to lure in foreign workers so peasants weren't tied to their land anymore).  However, cannons and gunpowder helped to make Knights obsolete, which negated the necessity for years of training (and expensive horse maintenance) for maintaining an army.  

 

So, in Randland, Mat is helping to make some of the advantages of nobles (who have been shown as very cavalry dependent, e.g., Weiramon) obsolete.  In theory, this could eventually help make popular uprisings more successful if and when they decide that the nobles aren't justifying their positions.

 

That being said, I don't see anything in RJ's books that suggest democracy will necessarily be the result of the nobles having less power.  Power could instead just become more centralized (from the nobles to the monarchs), not necessarily decentralized (from the nobles to the people) 

[b3arz3rg3r]

 

 

 

I don't think their's anything to suggest that democracy is going to enter Randland as a result of anything Rand does, if it does at all.

 

Quite the opposite. RJ was not a great fan of democracy, calling himself a 'monarchist'. He might have been being facetious, but there are practically zero hints in the books that he thinks democracy is a good idea outside villages and the like. I gather he is one of those people who is of the opinion that democracy creates needless bureaucracy. Of course, absolutism is only a good alternative if you happen to have a wise ruler.

 

I think there's plenty of hints that democracy is good, and a healthy dose of disdain for nobility and monarchies. Quite apart from villages, the White Tower is a democracy, of sorts, but one steeped in too many archaic laws and bureaucracy till Egwene came along. There's a lot of different places where the importance of checks and balances on power is either mentioned or strongly implied. The concept of a noble class is given a heavy amount of disdain, especially in Mat's PoV, but its there everywhere. 

 

I wouldn't take any of this to mean a sudden turn to democracy. But with the coming steam trains and cannon, I wouldn't be shockingly surprised either.

4. What do steam trains and cannons have to do with democracy?

 

 

Quite a bit actually.

 

Steam trains and the like increase the mobility of the general populace. That means that people, ideas and goods travel at a vastly accelerated pace and over longer distances. With increased trade the mercantile class will accumulate more wealth in comparison to the aristocracy. And with more wealth they'll demand more political influence. With increased transportation of people, most of the population which is stuck in villages right now will be able to move into the industrializing towns and cities a lot more easily and cheaply. And the increased communication will lead to more exchange between the people of various nations. Even if there are no democracies there are still significant difference in the personal freedom in the various nations. Once people know there is better treatment in other nations they'll demand the same for themselves.

 

And cannons, firearms in general, are a great equalizer. They are rather cheap and easy to learn in comparison to say sword and armor. A noble can't exert power over a populace so easily with his armsmen when the population has access to firearms. And not just nobles. Aes Sedai and channellers in general will have to learn to step a lot lighter around people than they are doing right now. Firearms make it a lot easier to kill them and since a lot of their power is derided from their strength and near invulnerability to medieval weaponry.

 

Industrialization always leads to social upheaval and if you look at how many actual monarchies survived the industrialization in the real world you can guess what is likely to happen in Randland

[MarkDiLillo]

Ya ok you're just really stretching things now, b3arz3rg3r.  Democracy does not have its roots in any form of technology and has been around well before any type of steam tech or the like.  There literally is nothing in common and they do not have any relationship whatsoever.  Your logic is sound, but we have 1000's of years of real life history proving you incorrect so it's not worth treading down that avenue for the sake of your argument.

[mbuehner]

1. The White Tower is not a democracy. They have a ruler (Amyrlin) and a ruling body (Hall) but they don't vote on anything Tower-wide.

 

I think the WT can be described as a representative democracy. The sitters are elected by the ajah, the Amyrlin is elected by the sitters (technically this is the way our American president is elected via the electoral college).  Of course only AS have any say, even though thousands of normal people live in TV, so its hardly a system of universal justice.

[b3arz3rg3r]

Ya ok you're just really stretching things now, b3arz3rg3r.  Democracy does not have its roots in any form of technology and has been around well before any type of steam tech or the like.  There literally is nothing in common and they do not have any relationship whatsoever.  Your logic is sound, but we have 1000's of years of real life history proving you incorrect so it's not worth treading down that avenue for the sake of your argument.

 

I'm talking about modern democracy. I do not consider ancient greece and rome examples of modern democracy. They were both a type of oligarchy since only a very limited number of people actually had a vote. Modern democracy however started around the same time as the industrialization begun. Some were a bit slower, some a bit faster and quite a few had to do it over and over again until they finally got there but usually unless the process is corrupted it leads to some form of democracy.

 

 

 

1. The White Tower is not a democracy. They have a ruler (Amyrlin) and a ruling body (Hall) but they don't vote on anything Tower-wide.

 

I think the WT can be described as a representative democracy. The sitters are elected by the ajah, the Amyrlin is elected by the sitters (technically this is the way our American president is elected via the electoral college).  Of course only AS have any say, even though thousands of normal people live in TV, so its hardly a system of universal justice.

 

Not really. The WT doesn't exist as a society by itself. It holds dominion over Tar Valon as well. If all the people in Tar Valon could vote who is Amyrlin then you could call it a democracy.

[MarkDiLillo]

 

1. The White Tower is not a democracy. They have a ruler (Amyrlin) and a ruling body (Hall) but they don't vote on anything Tower-wide.

 

I think the WT can be described as a representative democracy. The sitters are elected by the ajah, the Amyrlin is elected by the sitters (technically this is the way our American president is elected via the electoral college).  Of course only AS have any say, even though thousands of normal people live in TV, so its hardly a system of universal justice.

 

 

I was going to bring this up, but it's not something worth really talking about to any lengths IMO.  Government clearly is not a theme in this story whatsoever and RJ seemed to have just decided that monarchs are the way to go for him and left it at that.  The WT is a democracy, but it is written in a way that portrays it as the opposite.  I tend to think that it ended up as a democracy on accident and it was just something RJ figured out without giving too much thought to.  He just knew that it didn't make sense in his world to have an absolute ruler of the WT so he tweaked it a bit.

[dhammett11]

Ya ok you're just really stretching things now, b3arz3rg3r.  Democracy does not have its roots in any form of technology and has been around well before any type of steam tech or the like.  There literally is nothing in common and they do not have any relationship whatsoever.  Your logic is sound, but we have 1000's of years of real life history proving you incorrect so it's not worth treading down that avenue for the sake of your argument.

 

Yes, democracy has existed since Hellenistic times, but only rarely and intermittently. Do you really think it is coincidence that it suddenly became commonplace and sustainable after industrialization?

[MarkDiLillo]

Not particularly interested in getting drawn into an argument about democracy guys.  I will say that I think it has more to do with education than industrialization though.

[herid]

Memory 18
 

 

Fortuona ignored her, standing. "This woman is my new Soe'feia. Holy woman, she who may not be touched. We have been blessed. Let it be known."

This sounds ominous. What's happened to Selucia? Is this Hasselump? Strike that. Moridin sent her to command some army for Demandred. No other guesses at the moment.

 

[hjustinpace]

I agree that government isn't a major theme in The Wheel of Time, but Jordan was characteristically meticulous in this aspect of worldbuilding. We have everything from traditional monarchies (Andor, Carhien) to councils of Lords (Tear) to monarchies-with-strong-councils (Arad Doman, Illian) to a sort of duopoly (Tarabon).

[Amandera]

Memory 18

 

 

Fortuona ignored her, standing. "This woman is my new Soe'feia. Holy woman, she who may not be touched. We have been blessed. Let it be known."

This sounds ominous. What's happened to Selucia? Is this Hasselump? Strike that. Moridin sent her to command some army for Demandred. No other guesses at the moment.

 

 

 

No, that's Moghedien. It could be Heffalump I guess, though she says her plans with the "childlike empress" would have to be abandoned. She might have changed her mind about that after her transmigration, since she no longer has to run. What I don't understand is why in the Light would Tuon replace Selucia?

[he who comes with a bong]

seems weird to me that the seanchan would in fact have a Holy Woman. since the empress may she live forever is the closest thing they have to a holy type person i would say.

[b3arz3rg3r]

Memory 18

 

 

Fortuona ignored her, standing. "This woman is my new Soe'feia. Holy woman, she who may not be touched. We have been blessed. Let it be known."

This sounds ominous. What's happened to Selucia? Is this Hasselump? Strike that. Moridin sent her to command some army for Demandred. No other guesses at the moment.

 

 

"Holy woman, she who may not be touched."? Ehm excuse me while I throw up in my mouth.

 

When Selucia became Truthspeaker all that was said was

 

“Selucia is my Truthspeaker,” she announced to the room. “Let it be published among the Blood.”

 

I hope this is just one of those bad lines which happen from time to time when BS can't get his own fan worship under control and resorts to purple prose and not an entirely new concept among the Seanchan.

[Bromo Sapien]

Memory 18

 

 

Fortuona ignored her, standing. "This woman is my new Soe'feia. Holy woman, she who may not be touched. We have been blessed. Let it be known."

This sounds ominous. What's happened to Selucia? Is this Hasselump? Strike that. Moridin sent her to command some army for Demandred. No other guesses at the moment.

 

 

 

 

Selucia became Fortuona's Voice, not her Truthspeaker (Soe'feia). Semirhage was her Truthspeaker before she was revealed and Selucia took up the role on a temporary basis until Fortuona came around, iirc.

[BFG]

Memory 18 - I may be getting the roles mixed up but...

 

soe'feia is a truth speaker, didn't she name Selucia to be her voice? She said in Towers that she needed to find somebody new to fill one of the roles, as it was 'confusing' (not her word) to have the same person fill both. It doesn't have to mean something ominous happened.

 

I think it fueled a lot of speculation that Setalle would become truthspeaker

[Amandera]

Selucia is both her Truthspeaker and Voice. Tuon thinks in tGS that Selucia will make a very good Truthspeaker and in ToM that she needs a new Voice. Nothing to indicate Selucia would be replaced as a Truthspeaker.

[Bromo Sapien]

I just went back to the book for the passage. I was wrong; she said she needed to find a new Voice, not Truthspeaker.

 

 

Fortuona would eventually have to choose another Voice, as Selucia was now her Truthspeaker.

 

ToM Ch. 47 (pg. 703 hardcover).

 

I stand corrected

[Selene's Shadow]

NVM

[fionwe1987]

 

 

 

I don't think their's anything to suggest that democracy is going to enter Randland as a result of anything Rand does, if it does at all.

 

Quite the opposite. RJ was not a great fan of democracy, calling himself a 'monarchist'. He might have been being facetious, but there are practically zero hints in the books that he thinks democracy is a good idea outside villages and the like. I gather he is one of those people who is of the opinion that democracy creates needless bureaucracy. Of course, absolutism is only a good alternative if you happen to have a wise ruler.

 

I think there's plenty of hints that democracy is good, and a healthy dose of disdain for nobility and monarchies. Quite apart from villages, the White Tower is a democracy, of sorts, but one steeped in too many archaic laws and bureaucracy till Egwene came along. There's a lot of different places where the importance of checks and balances on power is either mentioned or strongly implied. The concept of a noble class is given a heavy amount of disdain, especially in Mat's PoV, but its there everywhere. 

 

I wouldn't take any of this to mean a sudden turn to democracy. But with the coming steam trains and cannon, I wouldn't be shockingly surprised either.

 

 

1. The White Tower is not a democracy. They have a ruler (Amyrlin) and a ruling body (Hall) but they don't vote on anything Tower-wide.

2. Checks and balances are not democracy. They are an element of a logically-structured democracy, but democracy is defined by popular vote.

3. Some characters have a disdain for nobles, but that doesn't equate to an endorsement of democracy by any stretch of the imagination.

4. What do steam trains and cannons have to do with democracy?

 

1) The Tower is very much a democracy. Not the Tower as government of Tar Valon. I'm talking about the Hall and Amyrlin being the government of the Aes Sedai.

2) Of course those features don't amount to democracy. But the presence of those is a good starting point towards democracy.

3) No it doesn't. All I'm saying is that RJ's support of monarchies was likely a facetious statement, given how so many of the main characters disdain the nobility.

4) A lot, as others have explained.

 

Mark D: The idea of democracy existed well before trains and gunpowder, but the spread of democracy owes much to these (and other) things.

[fionwe1987]

As for the new Truthspeaker, I'm confused they'd reveal what can only be an obvious spoiler, unless this is Selucia's official proclamation as Fortuona's Truthspeaker. Otherwise, she may be dead, and Graendal may be taking her place...