Cheapshot Strategy?

[RandA lThor]

So something just happened in the halloween mafia game that gave me an interesting idea, that seems like a totally cheapshot method. Two players are pretty much confirmed and town is trying to decide between two people. Suddenly, one person purposely gets modkilled (this is where it gets different from the real game), and they are shown as town and day goes on. Obviously maf now gets lynched. Now before this goes out of hand, as I see this now might, how should we deal with this? Or should we just go by the honor system to not do this?

[peacesells]

Rand..I seriously doubt it was on purpose. And I'm the loser in that scenario.

[RandA lThor]

I know it was not on purpose, that's what I am saying. And I also know it was on purpose. What I am trying to say on this thread is "For town, is purposely modkilling yourself in this manner to vouch yourself and get the other killed a legitimate tactic?"

[peacesells]

No, in my opinion that would be completely against the spirit of the game.

[RandA lThor]

OK, that's what I wanted to confirm. I just didn't want this to become some sort of new strategy that people would use now.

[hazelkrs1]

Well now this sounds curious...

 

For the record Rand you kinda did an awful job at explaining the scenario, took me a bit to contextually put it all together lol. Would have been easier to just ask if it is ethical to get yourself modkilled to redirect attention on someone else you think is scum

[WWWwombat]

Soliciting a modkill should never be a legit strategy. There are several ways to deal with such things. Making intentionally modkilled players autolose, withholding coroner report, ending day phase without a lynch, additional modkills, benefits to the opposing side, etc.

[RandA lThor]

Just for the record, again, when this happened, it was not on purpose. I'm just making sure this different scenario doesnt happen.

[Verbal32]

Under normal circumstances, I'd never again play with a player that intentionally had themselves modkilled.

 

Ever.

[RandA lThor]

OK good, so I think we have a consensus here that will prevent this from happening in the future. Just wanted to get this option out of the way.

[cosmicpanda]

If you're modkilled, you lose. Simple.

[WWWwombat]

Unfortunately, even that may not be enough, Pandy, as some people will take the nominal loss as long as they get a moral victory.

[hazelkrs1]

I like Wombat's idea on things. And incidentally, I do feel like I have seen someone try to get modkilled in a weird kind of attempt at this: it was a newb scum who thought town might then think there was a gambit between the two (everything had boiled down to two players at the time) if he died and flipped scum. Can't remember what exactly he did, but I know he broke several rules at once. Coulda just been newb newb, but it seemed more deliberate imo. Could have also been frustration I suppose, and the player just wanted to die as quickly as possible, but even then I wouldn't exactly call it legitimate behavior for anyone in mafia.

 

(Also can't remember what game it was, or who, don't think that person played any more mafia games after that)

[cosmicpanda]

Unfortunately, even that may not be enough, Pandy, as some people will take the nominal loss as long as they get a moral victory.

 

I prefer to think that there isn't any such thing as a moral victory in mafia. You can always modkill in a way that is most punishing to the team to which that person belonged: ie. if they're town, their death ends the day, and if they're scum, their death doesn't.

[Verbal32]

Unfortunately, even that may not be enough, Pandy, as some people will take the nominal loss as long as they get a moral victory.

 

I prefer to think that there isn't any such thing as a moral victory in mafia. You can always modkill in a way that is most punishing to the team to which that person belonged: ie. if they're town, their death ends the day, and if they're scum, their death doesn't.

 

I disagree, Pandy. It is only a game, who cares of you win or lose when you can make a point and inflate your ego a little more, ya know? Some people are like that, and will damage a game just to prove a point. They don't care about the actual win/loss of the game.

[Kivam]

Unfortunately, even that may not be enough, Pandy, as some people will take the nominal loss as long as they get a moral victory.

 

I prefer to think that there isn't any such thing as a moral victory in mafia. You can always modkill in a way that is most punishing to the team to which that person belonged: ie. if they're town, their death ends the day, and if they're scum, their death doesn't.

 

This. I also tend to give random or no alignment information when I modkill if the player has done something egregious; I might tell you town is scum or scum is town.

[Verbal32]

Unfortunately, even that may not be enough, Pandy, as some people will take the nominal loss as long as they get a moral victory.

 

I prefer to think that there isn't any such thing as a moral victory in mafia. You can always modkill in a way that is most punishing to the team to which that person belonged: ie. if they're town, their death ends the day, and if they're scum, their death doesn't.

 

This. I also tend to give random or no alignment information when I modkill if the player has done something egregious; I might tell you town is scum or scum is town.

 

There are exceptions to this, though - EY's modkill in your game comes to mind.

 

Besides, I think most people who do it on purpose (not counting EY - his move was actually genius to pin you down to confirming him either way) are doing it to stroke their ego and show people they "knew" it.

[Darthe]

Yeah, it blew to lose that way and has hurt all of our standings a bit that were mafia but these sorts of things are tough to handle and should be the moderators decision. IE: the guys death made it clear that the remaining mafia member had definitely lied and so the moderator killing that towns-member actually handed the town victory. Of course, it was the fair thing to do for the game but a decision that heavy at endgame is essentially damning for the entire game. I would honestly probably have modkilled another townmember in that instance but there is no real fair choice.

[Moon Sedai]

I cannot speak for this mafia board, omly Thakandar (Shayol Ghul)

But....

I have now implimented a rule that anyone modkilled in a Thak game does not get their points.

 

[Ithillian Turambar]

Likewise in the BT.

[hazelkrs1]

Bumping this thread now that the KH game is over. Not trying to cause any hurt feelings, but this might need to be discussed further... Not sure if the thread title will get the attention it needs however.

 

But yeah, I think getting yourself modkilled on purpose as a strategy is pretty unsportsmanlike tbh. Funny thing is, I think the recent example actually kind of worked against the person who tried it, but that doesn't mean that it's all kosher.

[csarmi]

Getting modkilled intentionally should result in not allowed to play again at all.

[John E. Kelley]

Drop it. We all mess up once.

[hazelkrs1]

Drop it. We all mess up once.

 

Ishy, you misunderstand me. I'm not trying to rub anyone's nose in anything or point fingers. Personally I have a lot of respect for Mish, and I think she's def one of the better players out of the relatively newer crowd. I also don't think she did what she did because she was trying to use a cheap strategy to help her team, I think she just hadn't thought about it like that.

 

It's kind of like how in the "Lying about RL" thread, Darthe admitted that he had done so before. A few people spoke out pretty heavily against him, and I don't think he had done so anymore after that first time and I don't think he'd do so again, knowing how others feel about that kind of thing.

 

Basically I think it's a good idea to open up discourse about things like this so that people can get a sense for what other players find to be outside the spirit of the game and questionable tactics and strategies.

 

I personally really don't like how so many people complain about DM mafia all the time. It's true that there are some issues that need some kind of attention, but I think there's more productive ways of handling matters than just bitching about things all the time.

 

One of the things I've seen others mention is that DM mafia might have a small problem with sportsmanlike conduct. Well, the more we talk about what is fair and unfair tactics and strategies, the greater the chance that sportsmanship will improve, which will be good for everybody.

 

Honestly maybe it wasn't a good idea to bump this thread, and instead make a new one, since the title of this one is a little harsh. I can make a new thread if you like.

 

Getting modkilled intentionally should result in not allowed to play again at all.

 

Way too harsh imo. As Ishy said, everyone makes mistakes.

[dapianoplay3r]

It's one of those things that diminishes the integrity of the game

 

I really dislike it. It's cheating, and that's what bugs me about it

 

Tbh darthe also did something similar when he was given a mafia role in the Pokemon game. I'm not 100% sure that it was on purpose but he had said he would purposefully get lynched if he was mafia again. So to me when he did that I was disappointed

 

I dunno. I just really don't like the idea that people purposefully do things that alter the game that aren't gameplay

(If the rules allowed for modkills as a form of play, don't ask me how, then it would be fine)

 

It's like posting as other people in a QT. leelou was against it and after it happened made a rule against it. However until that point, thought unsportsmanlike, it was within the games rules and therefore not cheating (it does skirt the rules but doesn't directly violate them)

 

Anyway to me a cheap shot is fine as long as it doesn't break the rules (I consider a mass claim a cheap shot as I do faking a vote. But unless rule prohibited I won't lead a witch hunt on the doer)

However in this case with mish it was breaking the rules. Not totally sure on the Darthe one but it did lower darthe in my eyes a bit (sorry dude)

 

As for punishment. Nol handled it well. I won't ban mish from any games I run (unless she did it again), but I would understand if Nol did until she apologised