Thisguy's Topic on Brandon's Work

[Peter Ahlstrom]

There seem to be some misconceptions in this thread about Brandon's process with Team Jordan. (I'm not responding specifically to the post before this, but to a few earlier posts.) So I will clarify a few points.

 

With each book, Brandon writes drafts, goes back and forth with Team Jordan, and revises. Then when it comes to the copyedit and proofread, Team Jordan handles that themselves. It's no different with this book, except that each step has had more time.

 

Brandon finished the first draft on December 20th. Then there was a lot of back and forth with Team Jordan. He turned his final draft in to Team Jordan on July 29th. That's over seven months of revision drafts, longer than either previous book. On the previous books, the beta read happened a bit earlier in the process, but this time, the beta read happened at the same time as the copyedit, so Team Jordan handled revisions based on both the copyedit and the beta read at the same time. Team Jordan is now doing the proofread, and they have longer to do it than even The Gathering Storm had, by a bit, and weeks longer than they had for Towers of Midnight.

[MarkDiLillo]

There seem to be some misconceptions in this thread about Brandon's process with Team Jordan. (I'm not responding specifically to the post before this, but to a few earlier posts.) So I will clarify a few points.

 

With each book, Brandon writes drafts, goes back and forth with Team Jordan, and revises. Then when it comes to the copyedit and proofread, Team Jordan handles that themselves. It's no different with this book, except that each step has had more time.

 

Brandon finished the first draft on December 20th. Then there was a lot of back and forth with Team Jordan. He turned his final draft in to Team Jordan on July 29th. That's over seven months of revision drafts, longer than either previous book. On the previous books, the beta read happened a bit earlier in the process, but this time, the beta read happened at the same time as the copyedit, so Team Jordan handled revisions based on both the copyedit and the beta read at the same time. Team Jordan is now doing the proofread, and they have longer to do it than even The Gathering Storm had, by a bit, and weeks longer than they had for Towers of Midnight.

 

Well I am glad that the beta read occured and the scenario someone else described was not as accurate as stated.

[Suttree]

There seem to be some misconceptions in this thread about Brandon's process with Team Jordan. (I'm not responding specifically to the post before this, but to a few earlier posts.) So I will clarify a few points.

 

With each book, Brandon writes drafts, goes back and forth with Team Jordan, and revises. Then when it comes to the copyedit and proofread, Team Jordan handles that themselves. It's no different with this book, except that each step has had more time.

 

Brandon finished the first draft on December 20th. Then there was a lot of back and forth with Team Jordan. He turned his final draft in to Team Jordan on July 29th. That's over seven months of revision drafts, longer than either previous book. On the previous books, the beta read happened a bit earlier in the process, but this time, the beta read happened at the same time as the copyedit, so Team Jordan handled revisions based on both the copyedit and the beta read at the same time. Team Jordan is now doing the proofread, and they have longer to do it than even The Gathering Storm had, by a bit, and weeks longer than they had for Towers of Midnight.

 

Well I am glad that the beta read occured and the scenario someone else described was not as accurate as stated.

 

I stand by what I said. Brandon stepped away before the beta read occured. That was my point all along and still doesn't answer the question of why not use all the time alloted especially given the fact that everyone has said they need to get AMoL "right". Why the declaritive statement of being done with more work to do for the team. I don't believe that all of that effort lies squarely on the shoulder of Team Jordan. There is more to the story and authors are generally still involved at that stage. I understand it's complicated and the Team was under a ton of stress due to the short time frame with the earlier books. But let's not compare AMoL to those time frames as if this time is somehow much longer than the norm.

[thisguy]

There seem to be some misconceptions in this thread about Brandon's process with Team Jordan. (I'm not responding specifically to the post before this, but to a few earlier posts.) So I will clarify a few points.

 

With each book, Brandon writes drafts, goes back and forth with Team Jordan, and revises. Then when it comes to the copyedit and proofread, Team Jordan handles that themselves. It's no different with this book, except that each step has had more time.

 

Brandon finished the first draft on December 20th. Then there was a lot of back and forth with Team Jordan. He turned his final draft in to Team Jordan on July 29th. That's over seven months of revision drafts, longer than either previous book. On the previous books, the beta read happened a bit earlier in the process, but this time, the beta read happened at the same time as the copyedit, so Team Jordan handled revisions based on both the copyedit and the beta read at the same time. Team Jordan is now doing the proofread, and they have longer to do it than even The Gathering Storm had, by a bit, and weeks longer than they had for Towers of Midnight.

 

Thank you so much for your input. I really appreciate it.

[thisguy]

Actually, I don't think you got what I was saying, Sutt. Every time new material has come out, I have seen people here jump on it to tear it up. I even mentioned the three bits of the upcoming book.

[Suttree]

Actually, I don't think you got what I was saying, Sutt. Every time new material has come out, I have seen people here jump on it to tear it up. I even mentioned the three bits of the upcoming book.

 

Right I get it and you clarified that later on after I made those posts. We have had a numbe of great debates since you joined and I wanted to make clear to sawnchan that I most certainly was not knocking your time here or qualifications(that type of thing has no place here at DM).

[capuga]

There seem to be some misconceptions in this thread about Brandon's process with Team Jordan. (I'm not responding specifically to the post before this, but to a few earlier posts.) So I will clarify a few points.

 

With each book, Brandon writes drafts, goes back and forth with Team Jordan, and revises. Then when it comes to the copyedit and proofread, Team Jordan handles that themselves. It's no different with this book, except that each step has had more time.

 

Brandon finished the first draft on December 20th. Then there was a lot of back and forth with Team Jordan. He turned his final draft in to Team Jordan on July 29th. That's over seven months of revision drafts, longer than either previous book. On the previous books, the beta read happened a bit earlier in the process, but this time, the beta read happened at the same time as the copyedit, so Team Jordan handled revisions based on both the copyedit and the beta read at the same time. Team Jordan is now doing the proofread, and they have longer to do it than even The Gathering Storm had, by a bit, and weeks longer than they had for Towers of Midnight.

 

Well I am glad that the beta read occured and the scenario someone else described was not as accurate as stated.

 

I stand by what I said. Brandon stepped away before the beta read occured. That was my point all along and still doesn't answer the question of why not use all the time alloted especially given the fact that everyone has said they need to get AMoL "right". Why the declaritive statement of being done with more work to do for the team. I don't believe that all of that effort lies squarely on the shoulder of Team Jordan. There is more to the story and authors are generally still involved at that stage. I understand it's complicated and the Team was under a ton of stress due to the short time frame with the earlier books. But let's not compare AMoL to those time frames as if this time is somehow much longer than the norm.

 

Since Peter is truly in the know and in on the process, I'll give a lot weight to his accounting of the process.

 

He apparently worked for 7 months on revisions with Team Jordan. Longer than the other books. So he did apparently use the extra time. And that extra time was done for more editing time, it sounds like, more so than more writing time. Extra time which Team Jordan is still apparently using.

 

Yes, it appears that Brandon finished his writing before the beta read was done. But whose decision was that? Maybe Team Jordan told him they would handle it because it was easier just to incorporate it into the work they were already doing. Maybe both parties agreed that it would make more sense for Team Jordan to handle it. Or maybe Brandon did beg off that part of revisions feeling he was done.

 

The point is that we don't know. We're not privy to those decisions or the back and forth. Since I can guess who your source is, maybe he (then you) does have some real facts on the situation. But I'll assume not as that's probably between Brandon and Team Jordan. Which is why I find all this talk of Brandon not working hard or washing his hands of the project without using the extra time to be unfair and likely uninformed. Because we don't actually know the situation. Which is why I would prefer the criticism remain focused on the product and not the person's work ethic.

[Suttree]

...

 

Let's just move on to another topic. I hope we can all discuss how this played out post AMoL when more things can be discussed.

[MarkDiLillo]

I'd just like to point out that not everyone is basing questions of his work ethic on inside information. For one, I have always said that the reason I question the time he has spent in attention to detail is simply because so many little things are off. Little things that are not subjective and are measurable real mistakes made that should have been corrected. The only reason they were not corrected was because not enough time was spent attending to the detail of the project to perfect the text. This is a literal fact for some of these mistakes. The only defense against it would be whether or not there was enough time to reasonably go back and perfect the writing to this level of detail (I suppose sheer incompetence is another option, but I dont believe thats the case). From a fans perspective, with no insider information, it appears that there was enough time. Like I said before, some of the stuff is as simple as taking the time to compare the new scene to a typical RJ scene and making sure the phrases used in the new scene are physically typed out on paper the same as in the RJ scene.

 

So I think it is a fair criticism given the nature of some of the mistakes regardless of any insider information. That being said though, I think Suttree is right and we've exhausted this topic for the time being. No doubt there will be plenty of future critiquing after we've all digested aMoL.

[DemandredFO]

I see alot of criticism for Brandon but were you guys as critical of Saint RJ, especially in the first four books when there were lots of inconsistencies i.e. shimmer travelling and other stuff?

I agree with the first quote of the post; RJ lived and breathed WOT for decades. No matter how good Brandon is(very good in my opinion) he is not the story's creator, and can't intuitively know what comes next.

[Suttree]

I see alot of criticism for Brandon but were you guys as critical of Saint RJ, especially in the first four books when there were lots of inconsistencies i.e. shimmer travelling and other stuff?

 

Can't speak for anyone else but yes I was. Again no one is saying RJ is perfect but there is a pretty distinct difference in the quality of writing. I get some people don't care about that so much but for me going back over sections such as the Damona Mountain Campaign really makes me yearn for a more nuanced touch along with more polished prose.

[Peter Ahlstrom]

He apparently worked for 7 months on revisions with Team Jordan. Longer than the other books. So he did apparently use the extra time. And that extra time was done for more editing time, it sounds like, more so than more writing time. Extra time which Team Jordan is still apparently using.

 

Yes, it appears that Brandon finished his writing before the beta read was done. But whose decision was that? Maybe Team Jordan told him they would handle it because it was easier just to incorporate it into the work they were already doing. Maybe both parties agreed that it would make more sense for Team Jordan to handle it. Or maybe Brandon did beg off that part of revisions feeling he was done.

 

The point is that we don't know. We're not privy to those decisions or the back and forth. Since I can guess who your source is, maybe he (then you) does have some real facts on the situation. But I'll assume not as that's probably between Brandon and Team Jordan. Which is why I find all this talk of Brandon not working hard or washing his hands of the project without using the extra time to be unfair and likely uninformed. Because we don't actually know the situation. Which is why I would prefer the criticism remain focused on the product and not the person's work ethic.

 

Thanks for saying this. It's important to remember that Harriet is the boss in this situation.

[KakitaOCU]

Quite simply, the issues would not have existed with RJ. Or with a multitude of other authors. To be frank, these issues would not have existed if *I* wrote the series and I am far from a professional author (note that I am not saying that I could do a better job than Brandon Sanderson - just stating that the details we are disappointed with would be done right). These are quality issues and not intentional changes. As I said before, when so many little things are so far off...it makes it really hard to look at the big things that are off and just say "well he tried his best". If he couldnt spend a few minutes getting the small things right it is likely he couldnt spend the much greater time needed to get the big things right. At the end of the day, it comes down to a lack of desire to spend the time to get it done right.

 

You're actually avoiding my question entirely with that approach. I did ask if anyone thought RJ would have written it the same, or if they thought RJ could have made the same mistakes.

 

I asked, point blank. If RJ had written these books, and if RJ had had Aviendha say Rand, or Mat say Bloody Ashes. Would you (Or anyone else) be on him for inconsistency? Or would you infer natural evolution based on what you know of the character.

 

Aviendha's use of "Rand". Sloppy and ignoring the past writing? Or Evolution of her character as she becomes more comfortable with her feelings for Rand and their relationship?

 

Mat's use of Bloody Ashes. Sloppy and ignoring the past writing? Or simply that as he's gotten older and more calm he's less in need of the theatricality of long and drawn out profanities?

 

My question, again... If RJ had written those changes, would you still consider them mistakes, or would you consider the second point more likely?

[Suttree]

My question, again... If RJ had written those changes, would you still consider them mistakes, or would you consider the second point more likely?

 

The point is moot, further it is highly unlikey that these things that did not change in the slightest throughout 1-10 would all of a sudden veer off to the extent it has under Brandon. The sheer volume of the mistakes/changes makes your scenario implausible.

 

As Cow said earlier in the thread...

 

Changing the details is either blind arrogance or just blindness, and I think neither is excusable, especially when you could easily have included the fanbase in the detail correcting so easily.

 

Let's not forget that the Team has admitted to there being mistakes, you can't turn a blind eye to that.

[KakitaOCU]

You do realize avoiding a question by dimissing it as meaningless kind of says something.

 

Edit: The above sentence is far more snide than it should have been, since Suttree quoted it directly, I'm leaving it for consistency, but did want to admit where I was off.

 

That said, I don't find them to be sudden veerings of anything. Someone already gave multiple examples of Aviendha slowly softening her stance and in fact calling Elayne by one name. You see it as some type of sloppy and easily avoided mistake, I see it as a natural evolution of her feelings and thoughts towards Rand. Barring Brandon admitting to it as a mistake, we're both giving subjective opinions based on our interpretation of the book.

 

As for quoting Cow, what he said is pure opinion and nothing else. The fact that not everyone sees them as outright mistakes gives proof to that.

 

As for the team admitting mistakes. Did they admit that small word shifts and changes were mistakes?

[MarkDiLillo]

You do realize that propping up an argument with a hypothetical what-if question is perhaps the weakest form of debate that exists, right?

 

To answer your abursd hypothetical though - yes, people would have noticed it if RJ had somehow made an error of that magnitude. We would have noticed it and we would have squinted at it for a moment before moving on assuming that is how RJ wanted it to be. The difference is that RJ was the creator and author of the world and all of the characters. When he wrote something it was law. BS is attempting to fill in the blanks in RJs world and therefor he is subject to criticism when he makes errors. RJ was not subject to those specific types of criticisms. However, he was subject to much harsher criticisms concerning the story, plot, designs, etc. BS doesn't have to worry about any of that because he is working with someone elses story. The only criticisms that can be leveled against him are the ones regarding continuity of the world and quality of the scenes he wrote. He is immune to nearly everything else. Guess what though? RJ is considered a great author because he passed most of the other criticisms with flying colors. That's why we're all here in the first place and that's why his books were wildly popular and best sellers.

[Suttree]

You do realize avoiding a question by dimissing it as meaningless kind of says something.

 

It is RJ's world so he can make whatever changes he wants but he didn't mess with that type of consistency when it could be avoided. You can not point to many examples of those types of changes in the first 10 books let alone the wholesale kind we have seen under Brandon in the last two and yes for the record the team admitted to some of those mistakes being related to how rushed the process was. It is one reason why so many people claim the books to be unpolished. As for the Avi example it is one I don't find particularly bad(so I get why you keep leaning on it instead of more egregious examples) but you continue to view each mistake on it's own and conveniantly ignore what happens when they all add up.

 

I will say this though since you seem to need an answer. If RJ had thrown consistency to the wind after 10 books and ignored the small details he would have been crucified. Just look at the response to him trying something new in his approach with CoT. It most cetainly does not change based on who the author is.

 

Edit: removed unnecessary sentence.

[KakitaOCU]

My main point wasn't to prop up the arguement, my main point is "There are two(at least) perfectly valid ways to interpret X. Why are you only willing to accept one and why are you so dismissive of anyone who disagrees with you?"

 

I got the "What if RJ instead of BS?" bit from the way Leigh very validly made the arguement about "You find this scenario off, try reading it with genders swapped." I'm using the same "You're reading this off, try reading it while thinking of it as written by RJ instead of BS." It's not a what if, it's a "Do this and tell me if you still think the same." If you do, great, then your critique is internally consistent, meaning it's valid. I shockingly enough never see anyone tell Leigh that her idea is absurd because it's hypothetical and the scene would never have been written with Mat as a woman.

 

The fact that you admit readily that "If RJ wrote it I'd have let it go." is all the answer I really need. It proves that your judgement is based far more on it being BS than on the actual writing. Rather or not your reasons for that are legitimate is a matter of opinion, so I guess we're at the agree to disagree point. :)

 

To Suttree, neither does the gender swapping exercise, it's still a valid hypothetical to get a point across. As for prior examples, Aviendha didn't start calling Elayne just Elayne or Sister until around book 8-9. Also, I use the Aviendha example because it was the first one I saw brought up in this thread, nothing more. As for your answer to the question, glad to hear you think that, makes your opinion much more valid in my eyes. I can and will always respect someone who's internally consistant with themselves, even if I don't agree with them.

[MarkDiLillo]

My main point wasn't to prop up the arguement, my main point is "There are two(at least) perfectly valid ways to interpret X. Why are you only willing to accept one and why are you so dismissive of anyone who disagrees with you?"

 

I got the "What if RJ instead of BS?" bit from the way Leigh very validly made the arguement about "You find this scenario off, try reading it with genders swapped." I'm using the same "You're reading this off, try reading it while thinking of it as written by RJ instead of BS." It's not a what if, it's a "Do this and tell me if you still think the same." If you do, great, then your critique is internally consistent, meaning it's valid. I shockingly enough never see anyone tell Leigh that her idea is absurd because it's hypothetical and the scene would never have been written with Mat as a woman.

 

The fact that you admit readily that "If RJ wrote it I'd have let it go." is all the answer I really need. It proves that your judgement is based far more on it being BS than on the actual writing. Rather or not your reasons for that are legitimate is a matter of opinion, so I guess we're at the agree to disagree point. :)

 

Did I mention that the reason a hypothetical what-if question is such a fail argument is because it often is used as a tool to trim down a persons complex answer into an overly simple answer that you can adjust to rationalize your opinion? In this case, you trimmed off every inch of my explanation and just took the the basic answer to validate what you wanted. You're taking the easy way out because you either don't want to lose or don't want to put forth the effort with an honest discussion.

 

It's a standard tactic of refusing to respond to the persons statements and instead forcing them into responding with a limited answer to a question of your choosing so that you can in turn tell them what their answer really means. You are essentially manipulating the debate and trying to trick someone into giving an answer that shows you're right instead of actually debating your beliefs with them. It's a low brow strategy bud.

[KakitaOCU]

Not in the slightest. Your answer is something people will have read immediately prior to my response, I'm not trying to misquote you or twist anything, people can see Exactly what you typed. My point is what it is. You completely proved that your issue stems more from it being BS vs RJ than it does from the actual writing. I even then went so far as to say that I didn't automatically find that illegitimate or wrong.

 

IE, I don't think you're bad, or unintelligent, or wrong to disagree with me, I just felt it was important to make the distinction of the source of your issue. For you, it's BS. For Suttree it's actually the writing itself separate from which author wrote it.

 

Edit, to address the paragraph you added. I could say the same of you, you didn't try to understand what I said or find any merit in it, you just accused me of trying to manipulate the arguement and "win". You didn't actually debate anything with me, you accused my question of being pointless and absurd, once you finally answered you took my response as an attack and tried to show how low brow and tricky I was being. There was no "tricking" Anyone with the comprehension to like these books would see immediately the point I was trying to make. Getting you to answer it wasn't an "ah ha!" moment, it was just a clarifying point for me to know where I was standing in this discussion with you, nothing more.

 

As for "winning" the debate. There's no winning and no "Losing" when we're both only speaking our opinions on a matter, and there's really not much else we can go to in this discussion. You find various writing pieces bad, I don't, we've discussed the why and neither of us is likely to change our minds. What else is there to do except just disagree and move on?

[sleepinghour]

I see alot of criticism for Brandon but were you guys as critical of Saint RJ, especially in the first four books when there were lots of inconsistencies i.e. shimmer travelling and other stuff?

 

RJ got plenty of criticism over the years. For the descriptions of clothes, the spankings, the man-hating lesbians, the bath scenes, the Tylin episode, the slow pace, his decision to sell the prologues etc... After CoT, some people were literally competing over who could write the most scathing Amazon review. It did quiet down a lot in the last few years since people are generally more reluctant to criticize a terminally ill or recently deceased person. It also helped that KoD was seen as a vast improvement over CoT.

 

And certainly there were many inconsistencies in RJ's books as well. In TEotW, a big deal was made of channelers being able to sense people they'd Healed; in later books, no one seems to have that ability anymore. Fans did complain about things like that, although most were a bit more forgiving of so-called early bookisms. Some people even complained about WoT characters never going to the bathroom, after which RJ got even by treating us to scenes of Elayne "making water" and Tuon searching for the privy. RJ didn't take criticism easily—you can tell that by a lot of interviews—and that he took the CoT backlash especially hard.

 

So RJ didn't get any special treatment from fandom until the very end, and Brandon got treated the same way when he first took over the series. Regarding Brandon's books, I share the opinion that many things could and should have been done better, but there's no reason to doubt that Brandon worked incredibly hard on these books. I don't think he deserves to be accused of "taking the money and running with it." He wrote three books for us instead of one and devoted several years of his life to finishing the series. Chances are, whatever changes the beta readers suggest, Team Jordan could fix on their own. I also remember Brandon saying that he would be brought in if any major changes were required.

[Luckers]

There seem to be some misconceptions in this thread about Brandon's process with Team Jordan. (I'm not responding specifically to the post before this, but to a few earlier posts.) So I will clarify a few points.

 

With each book, Brandon writes drafts, goes back and forth with Team Jordan, and revises. Then when it comes to the copyedit and proofread, Team Jordan handles that themselves. It's no different with this book, except that each step has had more time.

 

Brandon finished the first draft on December 20th. Then there was a lot of back and forth with Team Jordan. He turned his final draft in to Team Jordan on July 29th. That's over seven months of revision drafts, longer than either previous book. On the previous books, the beta read happened a bit earlier in the process, but this time, the beta read happened at the same time as the copyedit, so Team Jordan handled revisions based on both the copyedit and the beta read at the same time. Team Jordan is now doing the proofread, and they have longer to do it than even The Gathering Storm had, by a bit, and weeks longer than they had for Towers of Midnight.

 

This is an Aes Sedai comment. Truthful, and inferring as much as it avoids.

[TootThatHorn]

You do realize that propping up an argument with a hypothetical what-if question is perhaps the weakest form of debate that exists, right?

 

To answer your abursd hypothetical though - yes, people would have noticed it if RJ had somehow made an error of that magnitude. We would have noticed it and we would have squinted at it for a moment before moving on assuming that is how RJ wanted it to be. The difference is that RJ was the creator and author of the world and all of the characters. When he wrote something it was law. BS is attempting to fill in the blanks in RJs world and therefor he is subject to criticism when he makes errors. RJ was not subject to those specific types of criticisms. However, he was subject to much harsher criticisms concerning the story, plot, designs, etc. BS doesn't have to worry about any of that because he is working with someone elses story. The only criticisms that can be leveled against him are the ones regarding continuity of the world and quality of the scenes he wrote. He is immune to nearly everything else. Guess what though? RJ is considered a great author because he passed most of the other criticisms with flying colors. That's why we're all here in the first place and that's why his books were wildly popular and best sellers.

 

Yes, hence why during a q & a brandon seems to mostly say things like I'm 60% sure on that, well maybe 50%. I'm gonna have to MAFO that. Why don't you email me that question and I'll check the notes. Oh I don't have the notes on me.

 

But RJ had a concrete answer for everything. There is a difference.

 

Edit: Doesn't mean people enjoyed his answers. But he had one, and that is simply the difference of someone who created a world and someone who tried to take one over.

 

As I stated in an earlier post, most professionals probably wouldn't touch someone else's work, but brandon did. Why? Ever tried to get a tattoo artist to fix someone elses tattoo? It's not easy, even if they're great at it. And that is because they know better.

 

2nd Edit: Little cross over comparison: Star Wars has some of the craziest fans. Look at the difference in opinion from episodes 4-6 to 1-3. But same creator involved. If RJ had screwed the pooch then people would have been insanely pissed.

[Sid]

2nd Edit: Little cross over comparison: Star Wars has some of the craziest fans. Look at the difference in opinion from episodes 4-6 to 1-3. But same creator involved. If RJ had screwed the pooch then people would have been insanely pissed.

I think there are some Jar-Jar Binks's in these last books...

[Agitel]

Luckers and I were discussing Pevara's comment to Androl that demonstrated she expected the Black Tower to have a similar strength-based ranking structure similar to the White Tower in another topic.

 

Yeah I loved that moment when Pevara was like "wait, you're weaker than him? but he listens to you?" and Androl just sorta shrugs and says he's probably the weakest. Amusing that even the guys bred to be weapons aren't stupid enough to just rank on brute strength.

 

I didn't. In point of fact it's actually un-Aes Sedai to regard other channeling groups within the structure of their hierarchy.

 

Verin and Cadsuane are hardly representative of most Aes Sedai. I'm not sure what is Aes Sedai-like in this case, but I don't find Pevara's reaction to be a flaw in the writing or unbelievable. Some people have less experience in the world or with specific topics and some people don't stop to consider these things even for a moment before confronting the issue. It happens all the time in reality. Does that represent most Aes Sedai in this case? Does that represent a minority of Aes Sedai? Is it about 50:50? *shrugs* Even smart and very educated people can hold foolish notions at times.

 

I would think that Androl is like to be someone we've heard of; at least I hope so. Maybe somebody thought dead.

 

Verin and Cadsuane are hardly representative of most Aes Sedai.

 

Neither is Pevara, certainly not in a section of the book supposedly about her being awesome.

 

For all that, the Aes Sedai hierarchy is intensely personal to them, a thing OF the Aes Sedai, and not something based in an inherest respect for strength--indeed they actually disdain the concept of strength equating respect--it's one of the highest forms of rudeness EXCEPT within the hierarchy OF the Aes Sedai, and even then its a thing on the line.

 

That chapter represented a blunt assessment of the Aes Sedai and thereafter a poor portrayal of it.

 

 

Verin and Cadsuane are hardly representative of most Aes Sedai.

 

Neither is Pevara, certainly not in a section of the book supposedly about her being awesome.

 

For all that, the Aes Sedai hierarchy is intensely personal to them, a thing OF the Aes Sedai, and not something based in an inherest respect for strength--indeed they actually disdain the concept of strength equating respect--it's one of the highest forms of rudeness EXCEPT within the hierarchy OF the Aes Sedai, and even then its a thing on the line.

 

That chapter represented a blunt assessment of the Aes Sedai and thereafter a poor portrayal of it.

 

Your assessment of the reading is as much an oversimplification as the one you claim Brandon is making. A woman, particularly an Aes Sedai, and even more particularly a Red (even one as open as Pevara), could think that men would place more emphasis on strength than women (talking about stereotyping here, if not outright sexist attitudes, about men and perhaps about male channelers in general; even in real life you see machismo attitudes among groups of males). That perception may be reinforced by the incredibly militaristic structure of the Black Tower, which places an emphasis on forcing growth and use of the power for everything. Furthermore, negative connotations and discomfort with male channeling plus the obvious corruption in the Black Tower can subliminally reinforce attitudes that an unfair way of ranking may have been adopted. All prejudices aside, even if Pevara disagrees with the system, that doesn't mean that she would assume it isn't used elsewhere. My original arguments, about her not already considering how rank in the Black Tower works (or rank elsewhere) applies as well. Her words of surprise could very well have been her contrasting the two institutions in her mind: "even here they have a better system." You assume a surface-only level reading of Brandon's writing when Jordan himself left so many things unsaid and left to inference.

 

There's nothing wrong with this point, it's just being hyper-scrutinized because it's a detail of Brandon's creation. It's not in conflict with anything, and concerns only an individual character's reaction to a piece of trivia that surprised her in some way. And this scene is one of my least liked in the prologue, mind.

 

I considered your points. I don't agree, and hold by my own. But I did consider yours.

 

I'm not trying to reignite that debate here, but rather to explain something. My way of judging a scene or plot point that is potentially problematic is to determine whether or not there is a rational and plausible explanation beyond what is detailed in the book that is not contradicted by what's come before. Author's intent is less important for me in this matter. I think the argument Luckers was making (and correct me if I'm wrong) is that this is 'another' example of Brandon generalizing and dumbing down Aes Sedai, as evidenced by how Egwene brings them to her side in The Gathering Storm and continues to outsmart them in Towers of Midnight. Those are somewhat implausible cases for me, too. However, Pevara's case, as evidenced by my arguments above, is explainable, whether or not Brandon intended them that way (and I'm not casting judgments on his intent here). Therefore, it's entirely reasonable to interpret Pevara's surprise as consistent so far as it works within the story, and therefore not worth quibbling over or even getting mad about.

 

I use the same logic for parts of Jordan's writing as well. A major example of this is Egwene's selection as Amyrlin. Jordan only provides us with a justification based on Egwene's youth and perceived malleability and her relationship to the Dragon Reborn, and that's not enough for many people. I find that there are just-as-important political (daes dae'mar) considerations for her selection as well. These are considerations that are can be inferred from what's given, though they're never explicitly stated. I don't consider my inferences baseless.