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Thisguy's Topic on Brandon's Work


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There's absolutely no way this guy could have written these books as RJ. RJ spent at least 20 years gathering material and thinking and writing what to do.

 

This is perfectly true, but says none of the things you wish it would, nor serves any of the purposes you uttered it to serve.

 

You guys reread the books 20-80 times and then come here to complain right out of the gate when something has been written. It's amazing to watch; like a pack of hyenas.

 

Actually, right out of the gate, we were very considerate and supportive of Brandon.

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There's absolutely no way this guy could have written these books as RJ. RJ spent at least 20 years gathering material and thinking and writing what to do.

 

This is perfectly true, but says none of the things you wish it would, nor serves any of the purposes you uttered it to serve.

 

You guys reread the books 20-80 times and then come here to complain right out of the gate when something has been written. It's amazing to watch; like a pack of hyenas.

 

Actually, right out of the gate, we were very considerate and supportive of Brandon.

 

Yah it does seem to me over the course of these last 3 books, things that could have done better based on all our feedback never did get better in my minds eye at least.

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Not to rain on anyone's parade, but do you guys mind foregoing the regular argument about criticism and its validity, for the time being at least? We actually have some new tidbits to debate; why not make good use of that?

Edited by yoniy0
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There's absolutely no way this guy could have written these books as RJ. RJ spent at least 20 years gathering material and thinking and writing what to do.

 

This is perfectly true, but says none of the things you wish it would, nor serves any of the purposes you uttered it to serve.

 

You guys reread the books 20-80 times and then come here to complain right out of the gate when something has been written. It's amazing to watch; like a pack of hyenas.

 

Actually, right out of the gate, we were very considerate and supportive of Brandon.

Every time a chapter or bit is released, it's straight criticism here. And, that's after I've seen some of you say that he wasn't given the time needed to write these books.

 

As for the first comment, I don't know what you're trying to say.

 

Edit to add: I wonder what you think I was trying to say. Can you read my mind?

Edited by thisguy
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There's absolutely no way this guy could have written these books as RJ. RJ spent at least 20 years gathering material and thinking and writing what to do.

 

This is perfectly true, but says none of the things you wish it would, nor serves any of the purposes you uttered it to serve.

 

You guys reread the books 20-80 times and then come here to complain right out of the gate when something has been written. It's amazing to watch; like a pack of hyenas.

 

Actually, right out of the gate, we were very considerate and supportive of Brandon.

Every time a chapter or bit is released, it's straight criticism here. And, that's after I've seen some of you say that he wasn't given the time needed to write these books.

 

As for the first comment, I don't know what you're trying to say.

 

Thisguy you have been a member all of what a couple months? Not sure why you would even feel qualified to make the above statement. He was obviously referring to the first two books and he is exactly right. Lol "every time"...we have only received like two things before this from AMoL and as an aside Brandon had enought time this go round.

 

Not to rain on anyone's parade, but do you guys mind foregoing the regular argument about criticism and its validity, for the time being at least? We actually have some new tidbits to debate; why not make good use of that?

 

Would love to, unfortunately people feel the need to comment on posters who don't feel exactly as they do. Someone reads the prologue and if it is anything less than glowing praise for some odd reason they are attacked as "complainers".

Edited by Suttree
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Every time a chapter or bit is released, it's straight criticism here. And, that's after I've seen some of you say that he wasn't given the time needed to write these books.

 

Yes, it is. Or rather, no it isn't, not straight criticism--but yes, the criticism is indeed heavy. This is not without cause, nor without consideration.

 

There is a fact here that I will simply state: I know far more of what Brandon has gone through than you. I know about problems he faced that you have no idea of, and have sympathised with him over them. I've met the man, talked with him, called him out on things even, and been called out in turn. I by no means claim to be in his inner circle, and there are those who could make the same point to me that I'm making to you--but do not presume to act as if I am inconsiderate of the difficulties Brandon has faced. I am; beyond anything you'd guess at.

 

And yes, despite all that, I continue to hold the position that I do. Think on that.

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Good to see that the nitpicking has already begun.

 

Calling out Brandon on consistently not trusting readers to reach conclusions leading to this type of repeated blunt writing is hardly nitpicking. It's somewhat rare at this point for us not be sledge hammered between the eyes in a situation like the one above

 

It might be far more helpful SuperFade instead of sniping from the shadows every time somene makes a reasoned critique, to instead attempt to point out why they are not correct. Good luck on this one though(granted you may have been referring to one of the other comments)....if people don't get Nortune's point I don't even no where to begin. It's already a lost cause.

 

Because most of the 'reasoned critiques' are actually pointless nitpicking. The only valid complaints in my eyes are things that objectively contradict established lore, like the mindtrap section, or continuity issues, like Sulin being in two different places at the same time. Such issues are not only Brandon's responsibility, but also his editors too - the books are not a one-man show and it's extremely irritating how Brandon seems to take all the flack for it. It's hilarious how everyone is foaming at the mouth about 'dreamshards' and apparently unnecessary sentences when we don't even know how much of the text was written by Brandon and how much was by Jordan. The latter claim is particularly ridiculous when one considers how Jordan's incompetent editors allowed him to blather on for pages and pages about unnecessary trivialities.

 

There is an odd sort of myopia amongst the more senior members of this board, an arrogance that asserts that every problem with the later books must be Brandon's fault, because Robert Jordan could never have made such amateur mistakes. You seem to be under the impression that every single criticism of Brandon is 100% valid and that all the complainers are engaged in some epic quest to improve Brandon as a writer. But this belief presupposes that the problematic parts were indeed written by Brandon himself, and that they are actually problematic at all, which is subjective.

Well said. To be honest, reading through these books again (on my reread of KoD), I'm pretty friggin shocked at all the errors in them. Spelling, incorrect use of words, words that are totally misspelled. Where are the editors for these books? And, someone posted a line from the prologue somewhere here where Mat or Talmanes or whoever thinks "he'd mount them all".... where the fug is the editor? It's astounding! Writers make mistakes all the time, that's why there are editors.

 

As for the rest of your statement, Superfade, I agree.

 

This is what I've read on these forums more than once - Brandon wasn't given, or didn't have, enough time to write the books properly.

The first read through of the books everybody was happy, etc.

 

There's absolutely no way this guy could have written these books as RJ. RJ spent at least 20 years gathering material and thinking and writing what to do. You guys reread the books 20-80 times and then come here to complain right out of the gate when something has been written. It's amazing to watch; like a pack of hyenas.

 

Dont make excuses for him IMO. He was given plenty of time. So much time that he was writing his own books during the same time period. It sucks, but the reality is that BS butchered the last few books (we have yet to see the last one, but given what we already have seen I would be shocked if things changed much). This wasn't his editors fault, it was HIS fault. He wrote the books and therefor he was responsible. The guy just doesn't have the attention to detail and drive for perfection that was needed.

 

Brandon was not chosen because he had the best writing talents for the job. He was chosen because he was a superfan first that cared about the series. He has even stated that his job was not to match RJ's writing style and he wasn't going to try. His job was to make sure the tone of the characters stayed the same, make sure the world of WoT that RJ built remained the same, and that the little details that RJ so meticulously planted throughout the series were used in his writing while telling the story RJ laid out.

 

Let's be real here - this wasn't some monumental task for a guy who authors books as a career. Brandon had a very detailed outline already written, 10+ books of material to draw on already written, a good number of actual scenes already written, and a ridiculous treasure trove of notes to draw on that listed out every detail we could ever imagine about the WoT world. Furthermore, the hardest part of the whole project was matching his writing style with the previous authors and he flat out announced he was just not even going to attempt to do so! So all he had left to do was literally fill in the blanks using material that already existed and incorporate the details from the previous dozen books into these scenes. And somehow he still massively screwed that up. He literally screwed up the only thing he had to work towards. And the worst part is that a good chunk of the screwups dont even come from him just making a mistake - they come from what seems like a desire to interject his own little touch to various scenes. It's like he just simply is incapable of remembering that his job was to write RJ's book and instead has to constantly muck it up with his own personal flares.

 

At the end of the day it wont matter much because the story is RJs and we are getting RJs story in its completed form. What people need to remember though is that this series was defined by and made great by the meticulous world building. RJ was a masterful author IMO, but he was a near genius when it came to world building and incorporating that world so flawlessly into his story. For die hard fans it is near heart breaking to watch the core of what made WoT great be trampled through willfull ignorance and a lack of attention to detail. That is what bothers everyone, and that is why I find it hard to excuse Brandon. He literally mucked up the one and only thing he possibly could - attention to detail.

 

That being said, I will agree that it doesn't do much good to point it out over and over again. I will try to hold out until the end. After everything is said and done, I am certain that there is going to be a boatload of plot points that were not tied up very neatly that everyone is going to be talking about. Hell, at that point there wont be anything left to talk about but nitpick the details.

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There's absolutely no way this guy could have written these books as RJ. RJ spent at least 20 years gathering material and thinking and writing what to do.

 

This is perfectly true, but says none of the things you wish it would, nor serves any of the purposes you uttered it to serve.

 

You guys reread the books 20-80 times and then come here to complain right out of the gate when something has been written. It's amazing to watch; like a pack of hyenas.

 

Actually, right out of the gate, we were very considerate and supportive of Brandon.

Every time a chapter or bit is released, it's straight criticism here. And, that's after I've seen some of you say that he wasn't given the time needed to write these books.

 

As for the first comment, I don't know what you're trying to say.

 

Thisguy you have been a member all of what a couple months? Not sure why you would even feel qualified to make the above statement. He was obviously referring to the first two books and he is exactly right. Lol "every time"...we have only received like two things before this from AMoL and as an aside Brandon had enought time this go round.

 

Not to rain on anyone's parade, but do you guys mind foregoing the regular argument about criticism and its validity, for the time being at least? We actually have some new tidbits to debate; why not make good use of that?

 

Would love to, unfortunately people feel the need to comment on posters who don't feel exactly as they do. Someone reads the prologue and if it is anything less than glowing praise for some odd reason they are attacked as "complainers".

That's simple - in my few months here three bits of the book have been released and the criticism is thrown on with relish. As I've said, you've stated the man didn't have enough time, he's had the help of RJ's inner circle, and while I can understand the disappointment people feel over a much loved piece of work not being finished in the style they've come to expect, it seems like people enjoy bashing the books and the focal point of their disappointment is BS.

 

Edit to add: RJ took two years each to come out with the last several books. BS did it in half the time.

 

Edit to add: Luckers, you obviously know far more about the books and the making of than most do here. No one's arguing that. Doesn't take away a thing from what I've said.

 

Anyway, since other posters seem to just want to discuss the book and what happened, I've said my piece

Edited by thisguy
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The sad truth is that these forums only exist because RJ built such an utterly complex world with such exquisite attention to detail that there actually was a need to pool resources together to talk about different theories and to discuss evidence that was being presented in the books and what could possibly happen next. BS has left us with such a train wreck in terms of his attention to detail that we actually can't do that anymore because it's hard to tell if something was an intentional detail dropped in to foreshadow what is going to happen next or if its just a flat out mistake that means nothing. I guess that is where a lot of my disappointment comes from.

 

For example, I'd love to talk about the dreamshard scene until I was blue in the face. I really just feel like its not worth talking about because it is very likely the entire thing may just be nothing special at all and a quick Brandonism thrown in there that doesnt mean a whole lot.

Edited by Mark D
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That's simple - in my few months here three bits of the book have been released and the criticism is thrown on with relish. As I've said, you've stated the man didn't have enough time, he's had the help of RJ's inner circle, and while I can understand the disappointment people feel over a much loved piece of work not being finished in the style they've come to expect, it seems like people enjoy bashing the books and the focal point of their disappointment is BS.

 

The opperative phrase in your post is 'it seems'. Please refer to my post above.

 

Edit to add: RJ took two years each to come out with the last several books. BS did it in half the time.

 

Yes, to great detriment. What of it?

 

Edit to add: Luckers, you obviously know far more about the books and the making of than most do here. No one's arguing that. Doesn't take away a thing from what I've said.

 

Doesn't it? Are you that disengenuos? You present those that critique Brandon as being hyena's glorying in his destruction with not consideration of the difficulties he's faced, and respond with this?

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That's simple - in my few months here three bits of the book have been released and the criticism is thrown on with relish. As I've said, you've stated the man didn't have enough time, he's had the help of RJ's inner circle, and while I can understand the disappointment people feel over a much loved piece of work not being finished in the style they've come to expect, it seems like people enjoy bashing the books and the focal point of their disappointment is BS.

 

The opperative phrase in your post is 'it seems'. Please refer to my post above.

 

Edit to add: RJ took two years each to come out with the last several books. BS did it in half the time.

 

Yes, to great detriment. What of it?

what of it? Who made the decision, and how much time do you expect an established write to give to somebody else's work?

 

as for it seems, you can play a semantic game all you'd like but the truth is there are members her who just bash and it's obvious people are aware of it.

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That's simple - in my few months here three bits of the book have been released and the criticism is thrown on with relish. As I've said, you've stated the man didn't have enough time, he's had the help of RJ's inner circle, and while I can understand the disappointment people feel over a much loved piece of work not being finished in the style they've come to expect, it seems like people enjoy bashing the books and the focal point of their disappointment is BS.

 

The opperative phrase in your post is 'it seems'. Please refer to my post above.

 

Edit to add: RJ took two years each to come out with the last several books. BS did it in half the time.

 

Yes, to great detriment. What of it?

 

Edit to add: Luckers, you obviously know far more about the books and the making of than most do here. No one's arguing that. Doesn't take away a thing from what I've said.

 

Doesn't it? Are you that disengenuos? You present those that critique Brandon as being hyena's glorying in his destruction with not consideration of the difficulties he's faced, and respond with this?

I'm not being disingenuous. Obviously, there are posters who just bash the new work.

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what of it? Who made the decision, and how much time do you expect an established write to give to somebody else's work?

 

Who made what decision? And as for how much time I expect an established writer to give to somebody else's work--as much as is necessary, or else they should never have accepted the position.

 

as for it seems, you can play a semantic game all you'd like but the truth is there are members her who just bash and it's obvious people are aware of it.

 

Of course there are. They are douches, and I can't stand them any more than you.

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Most of the bashing I've seen is stuff that generally bothers people. It may come off as bashing to you, but it seems like legitimate criticism to me. Many times, what BS writes can be jarring and distracts the reader from the story.

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Doesn't it? Are you that disengenuos? You present those that critique Brandon as being hyena's glorying in his destruction with not consideration of the difficulties he's faced, and respond with this?

I'm not being disingenuous. Obviously, there are posters who just bash the new work.

 

And am I one? Am I just out to bash Brandon's work without consideration of the specifics of what he has faced?

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what of it? Who made the decision, and how much time do you expect an established write to give to somebody else's work?

 

Who made what decision? And as for how much time I expect an established writer to give to somebody else's work--as much as is necessary, or else they should never have accepted the position.

 

as for it seems, you can play a semantic game all you'd like but the truth is there are members her who just bash and it's obvious people are aware of it.

 

Of course there are. They are douches, and I can't stand them any more than you.

Obviously, RJ's wife and staff and BS made a decision as to how much time to take to put the books out. I believe someone here said he wasn't given enough time. Either way, he didn't have as much time as RJ did, he had half.

 

And, what I find funny is that it's fine to critique the work but not to critique the critique of the work. Thank you for giving me my own thread. I actually had just agreed with somebody else.

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Most of the bashing I've seen is stuff that generally bothers people. It may come off as bashing to you, but it seems like legitimate criticism to me. Many times, what BS writes can be jarring and distracts the reader from the story.

In that case, where is/are the editor(s)? I have the same problem with certain things throughout the entire series.

Edited by thisguy
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That's simple - in my few months here three bits of the book have been released and the criticism is thrown on with relish.

 

Which proves my point exactly. You missed how the general sentiment shifted over the years after the first two were released. Claiming "every time" when you have been here for exactly two just doesn't work. Lastly for those of us who have spent a great deal of time pouring over this series it could not be further from the truth to say with "relish". In fact I can't think of anything more tragic in regards to this series.

 

I'm not being disingenuous. Obviously, there are posters who just bash the new work.

 

The problem being people don't differntiate betweent the two types. Especially when people like myself almost always offer a balanced critique. Again the people solely looking to bash are usually called out for what they are.

Edited by Suttree
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I have always thought that the books could of been better in a lot of ways, but hey they are still awesome, they rank up in my top 5 book series to read. I just want to say that yes brandon could of done them better and a few things RJ could have done differently aswell. Overall they are both good writers in their own ways for sure. But everytime these things start to happen it always turns into a drawn out argument. And being a stay at home dad it is always great to read everyone gettign so pissed at each other it just makes me shake my head. I just always think Why cant we just accept that they wont be as good as the original authors and never will be.

 

Makes me laugh alot and makes think that some people on here are along the lines of my mother in law. (she isnt happy unless she has drama and something to bitch about in her life)

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Obviously, RJ's wife and staff and BS made a decision as to how much time to take to put the books out. I believe someone here said he wasn't given enough time. Either way, he didn't have as much time as RJ did, he had half.

 

EXACTLY. Why didn't he take that time? He could have. Indeed, instead he was openly critical of Harriet for taking more time.

 

And, what I find funny is that it's fine to critique the work but not to critique the critique of the work.

 

It is fine to critique the critique of the work, though of course you havn't done that. It's fine to do what you're doing as well, mind. Distasteful, but fine.

 

Thank you for giving me my own thread. I actually had just agreed with somebody else.

 

Superfade. Yes, I saw. But you agree with a lot of people, hence it's your thread.

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That's simple - in my few months here three bits of the book have been released and the criticism is thrown on with relish.

 

Which proves my point exactly. You missed how the general sentiment shifted over the years after the first two were released. Claiming "every time" when you have been here for exactly two just doesn't work. Lastly for those of us who have spent a great deal of time pouring over this series it could not be further from the truth to say with "relish". In fact I can't think of anything more tragic in regards to this series.

Here, for you: Every time I've seen a release people jump on it like hyenas. I said above, I've seen three releases and pretty hardcore criticism. Some of it is justified: wanting to mount every soldier is just weird. Where are the editors? One man does not write a book. It just doesn't happen that way in the publishing industry, unless you self publish.

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Obviously, RJ's wife and staff and BS made a decision as to how much time to take to put the books out. I believe someone here said he wasn't given enough time. Either way, he didn't have as much time as RJ did, he had half.

 

EXACTLY. Why didn't he take that time? He could have. Indeed, instead he was openly critical of Harriet for taking more time.

 

And, what I find funny is that it's fine to critique the work but not to critique the critique of the work.

 

It is fine to critique the critique of the work, though of course you havn't done that. It's fine to do what you're doing as well, mind. Distasteful, but fine.

 

Thank you for giving me my own thread. I actually had just agreed with somebody else.

 

Superfade. Yes, I saw. But you agree with a lot of people, hence it's your thread.

Hahaha!!! Distasteful but fine? You don't see anything that anybody has said in the critiques of the work that's been released early as distasteful? That's interesting.

 

Did Harriet agree to the timeline that BS gave her. If she did, how is that his fault. She could have gotten another writer.

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BS did an adequate job, but people here don't like WoT because it is adequate, they love it because it is exceptional. I for one prefer BS finishing it over it being left unfinished,but I can definatly see why people judge his work on it so harshly.

 

Plot is all I really care about, so when people say they only enjoyed the books because of the plot gratification I don't really understand their gripe, but then I would of been happy just reading a plot summary on Wikipedia or something.

 

That said, BS doesn't get a free ride just because he is writing the books, saying his writing style and the tone of characters have changed under his authorship is valid.

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I think I was one of the first to be a harsh critic of Brandons work. I am actually surprised with the general level of agreement that I see now that chapters are being released from the latest book. At the start I had few people who were in my camp and Brandon had a lot of sympathy. He would have won me over if he had improved his work over the course of three books, but it just doesn't seem to be the case. Some of the criticisms are very easy fixes and he seems to have flatly ignored advice.

Edited by Mark D
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I have always thought that the books could of been better in a lot of ways, but hey they are still awesome, they rank up in my top 5 book series to read. I just want to say that yes brandon could of done them better and a few things RJ could have done differently aswell. Overall they are both good writers in their own ways for sure. But everytime these things start to happen it always turns into a drawn out argument. And being a stay at home dad it is always great to read everyone gettign so pissed at each other it just makes me shake my head. I just always think Why cant we just accept that they wont be as good as the original authors and never will be.

 

Makes me laugh alot and makes think that some people on here are along the lines of my mother in law. (she isnt happy unless she has drama and something to bitch about in her life)

I agree.

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