Thisguy's Topic on Brandon's Work

[BFG]

^thanks.

 

I agree and go further to say it's one of my favourite 'extended' (by which I mean longer than a chapter) sequences from the books altogether.

[Suttree]

I think we need to be wary of becoming too caught up in both our dedication to Jordan and perhaps in a few opinions on formal qualities that make good writing. I know some people are approaching this from an education in writing and literature, but I feel that's overwhelming people's opinions.

 

You are correct in that judging things such as this it can get pretty subjective. As I've made clear elsewhere it's very important to not hold Jordan's work up in an unrealistic way. I came to the WoT at a young age and have wondered if it would have had the same impact had I done so later in life. The fact of the matter is people enjoy different writing styles. I often hold R. Scott Bakker as an example of the top bar in fantasy right now. His prose stands up outside of genre, the philosophical musings are highly intelligent and he was obviously influenced by Cormac McCarthy who is perhaps my favorite author of all time. When looking at his writing compared to Brandon's they feel worlds apart. I can point to many things technically that are superior with Bakker but at the end of the day it is still a personnel preference. I'm sure there are many people who prefer Sanderson's more direct style.

 

As an aside I thought the Avi section was very well done also. It is perhaps my favorite of Sanderson's contributions.

[yoniy0]

I'm gonna mirror Sutt's post, but what the heck:

 

I think we need to be wary of becoming too caught up in both our dedication to Jordan and perhaps in a few opinions on formal qualities that make good writing. I know some people are approaching this from an education in writing and literature, but I feel that's overwhelming people's opinions.

Personally, I'm neither dedicated to Jordan nor educated in English literature. In fact, my talents go in a completely different direction, and English isn't my native tongue to boot.

And yet, I don't feel I've lost sight of the actual books. I find that I can't immerse myself in ToM (and to a lesser degree, TGS), because both prose- and content-issues keep getting in the way. I'm keeping mistakes lists in my head. I'm cringing at some of the dialog. And it has only become worse in what I've seen of AMoL so far, in complete contradiction to what you'd have expected, and to TeamJ's reports about their process and their impression of the results.

 

So this comes down to two things. The first is that I have full intention to keep bringing up what I conceive to be mistakes, or what comes to mind about how it might've been achieved better (although, you shouldn't confuse that with an intention to stalk the boards and insert such comments in every thread I read; I'll continue to do so only where appropriate, according to current DM policies). The second is that I'm really tired of having to fend off complaints about my doing that, instead of having to support what I actually say (i.e., I have to defend my right to be saying what I am instead of defending my arguments themselves). I don't think anyone is breaking any laws by putting me in that position, but I am weary because of it. And quite often I simply leave a webpage instead of offering my opinion, because of it. I don't think anyone benefits from that, assuming I'm not the only one, but that's not for me to say.

 

PS

Nothing I've said here is being said as a moderator. My resignation as a member doesn't affect my resolve to enforce DM rules and staff instructions, such as the ones I've made above.

 

EDIT:

Oh, yeah, about Aviendha's trip to Rhuidean. I'm almost certain it's Brandon's, and by that I don't mean that it reads like his writing, but that I believe I've seen a comment of his about being proud of it.

[BFG]

I should say that as a BS defender (generally content/plot only - I sway on characters, and don't know enough about prose) I don't have a problem with people criticising or disliking and voicing either, I get fed up of the criticism and criticism of criticism, but that's not started by the original post, and I enjoy the debates. My critical analysis is getting better and that's a good thing.

 

So thanks (to most people on any side).

[csarmi]

Just incidentally do you know who wrote the Avi chapters in ToM? I thought they were RJ, but someone said they were BS?

The Rhuidean parts of ToM were by Brandon or almost entirely by him, I'm almost sure of it. I can't recall if he did confirm it himself in an interview, but that seems to be the prevailing opinion. They were my favorite part of either book that he did, because they accomplished their purpose perfectly: A splash of cold water in the face. Also, it's a section of his that actually stands up in re-reads. One theory I have for why they were as good as they were is because he was able to write something without so many constraints. Not only is it the future we've never experienced in any way other than headers and footers, but it's a future that probably isn't going to happen anyway so he could just paint it with his own creativity, and really didn't have the danger of forgetting to stay within the framework of the plot like everywhere else (and that framework is very complex). None of the characters, save for Aviendha, who is basically confused or in shock most of the time, are ones we've ever read a PoV of before, so there's almost no possibility of being jarred out of the telling by people acting out of character. He could be daring there, and it's really quite good, as opposed to other sections when he tries being daring and it results in people acting strange or the mechanics of the world being twisted.

 

The problem with the Rhuidean parts is that they don't make any sense. The history of the future shown there is full of glaring plotholes. The timeline makes no sense. Which is - unfortunately - a prevailing problem with BS.

Don't get me wrong: the main idea (splash of cold water + why the Aiel become doomed) is good and solid. Even the writing is. The chains of events is total bullsh*t.

[Agitel]

Just incidentally do you know who wrote the Avi chapters in ToM? I thought they were RJ, but someone said they were BS?

The Rhuidean parts of ToM were by Brandon or almost entirely by him, I'm almost sure of it. I can't recall if he did confirm it himself in an interview, but that seems to be the prevailing opinion. They were my favorite part of either book that he did, because they accomplished their purpose perfectly: A splash of cold water in the face. Also, it's a section of his that actually stands up in re-reads. One theory I have for why they were as good as they were is because he was able to write something without so many constraints. Not only is it the future we've never experienced in any way other than headers and footers, but it's a future that probably isn't going to happen anyway so he could just paint it with his own creativity, and really didn't have the danger of forgetting to stay within the framework of the plot like everywhere else (and that framework is very complex). None of the characters, save for Aviendha, who is basically confused or in shock most of the time, are ones we've ever read a PoV of before, so there's almost no possibility of being jarred out of the telling by people acting out of character. He could be daring there, and it's really quite good, as opposed to other sections when he tries being daring and it results in people acting strange or the mechanics of the world being twisted.

 

The problem with the Rhuidean parts is that they don't make any sense. The history of the future shown there is full of glaring plotholes. The timeline makes no sense. Which is - unfortunately - a prevailing problem with BS.

Don't get me wrong: the main idea (splash of cold water + why the Aiel become doomed) is good and solid. Even the writing is. The chains of events is total bullsh*t.

 

Further explanation of the glaring plotholes in the future timeline?

[Barid Bel Medar]

Just incidentally do you know who wrote the Avi chapters in ToM? I thought they were RJ, but someone said they were BS?

The Rhuidean parts of ToM were by Brandon or almost entirely by him, I'm almost sure of it. I can't recall if he did confirm it himself in an interview, but that seems to be the prevailing opinion. They were my favorite part of either book that he did, because they accomplished their purpose perfectly: A splash of cold water in the face. Also, it's a section of his that actually stands up in re-reads. One theory I have for why they were as good as they were is because he was able to write something without so many constraints. Not only is it the future we've never experienced in any way other than headers and footers, but it's a future that probably isn't going to happen anyway so he could just paint it with his own creativity, and really didn't have the danger of forgetting to stay within the framework of the plot like everywhere else (and that framework is very complex). None of the characters, save for Aviendha, who is basically confused or in shock most of the time, are ones we've ever read a PoV of before, so there's almost no possibility of being jarred out of the telling by people acting out of character. He could be daring there, and it's really quite good, as opposed to other sections when he tries being daring and it results in people acting strange or the mechanics of the world being twisted.

 

The problem with the Rhuidean parts is that they don't make any sense. The history of the future shown there is full of glaring plotholes. The timeline makes no sense. Which is - unfortunately - a prevailiong problem with BS.

 

 

While I absolutely loved this part and I think it is Brandon's best work, I have to agree.

 

It is not believable at all, there are so many things that just don't make sense. Where is Egwene, Elayne and Aviendha? They should live at least 200 years. Where is Mat and Perrin in the earlier years?

 

What of Lan and Nynaeve?

 

Amys, Sorelia and Melaine?

 

Not to mention that the Aiel are supposed to be destroyed and only a remnant of a remnant survive. How do they even have that many people left to fight?

 

What about the pact between the AS, WO and Windfinders?

 

What of the integration of male and female channelers?

 

Why on earth are they randomly on the Amloth Plain, conveniently right next to the Seanchan? (I think this may have been explained, so it might not be a problem)

 

What about the civil war in Seanchan? The Seanchan are weak on the mainland.

 

All we have is reference to Aviendha briefly and Tuon dying and the children of the Dragon.

 

The rest way into the future is a bit strange, we don't have much in the way of time-markers, but that's not too bad. The re-discovery of Shocklances so early seemed a bit off, and the fact that the Seanchan used Raken and not just Travel was a bit off. The way the other nations were dragged into war, convinced by a few stolen documents when the Seanchan hadn't broken the peace for years. There would have been diplomacy, not just jump straight into war.

 

However, the closer it comes to the "current" time, the more unbelievable it is. 20 years after the LB and basically ALL of the main characters are dead. Possible, but totally unbelievable.

 

Not one person can tell me they actually thought this future was believable the way it turned out after a few minutes of thought.

 

Now that's not to say I didn't enjoy it, I loved it, and I love the impact, the writing and the reasons for it, it was just totally unbelievable. Basically we see nothing of the growth and acceptance of different cultures and the gender situation. Literally it is a succession of the absolute worst possible things that could happen put together.

[TootThatHorn]

I'm gonna mirror Sutt's post, but what the heck:

 

I think we need to be wary of becoming too caught up in both our dedication to Jordan and perhaps in a few opinions on formal qualities that make good writing. I know some people are approaching this from an education in writing and literature, but I feel that's overwhelming people's opinions.

Personally, I'm neither dedicated to Jordan nor educated in English literature. In fact, my talents go in a completely different direction, and English isn't my native tongue to boot.

And yet, I don't feel I've lost sight of the actual books. I find that I can't immerse myself in ToM (and to a lesser degree, TGS), because both prose- and content-issues keep getting in the way. I'm keeping mistakes lists in my head. I'm cringing at some of the dialog. And it has only become worse in what I've seen of AMoL so far, in complete contradiction to what you'd have expected, and to TeamJ's reports about their process and their impression of the results.

 

So this comes down to two things. The first is that I have full intention to keep bringing up what I conceive to be mistakes, or what comes to mind about how it might've been achieved better (although, you shouldn't confuse that with an intention to stalk the boards and insert such comments in every thread I read; I'll continue to do so only where appropriate, according to current DM policies). The second is that I'm really tired of having to fend off complaints about my doing that, instead of having to support what I actually say (i.e., I have to defend my right to be saying what I am instead of defending my arguments themselves). I don't think anyone is breaking any laws by putting me in that position, but I am weary because of it. And quite often I simply leave a webpage instead of offering my opinion, because of it. I don't think anyone benefits from that, assuming I'm not the only one, but that's not for me to say.

 

PS

Nothing I've said here is being said as a moderator. My resignation as a member doesn't affect my resolve to enforce DM rules and staff instructions, such as the ones I've made above.

 

EDIT:

Oh, yeah, about Aviendha's trip to Rhuidean. I'm almost certain it's Brandon's, and by that I don't mean that it reads like his writing, but that I believe I've seen a comment of his about being proud of it.

Bold = Agreed wholeheartedly.

Italicized= And he should be. I agree BBM that it struck me as so odd and out of place for all the reasons mentioned, however, it was incredibly enjoyable to read. Honestly it seems so off the wall that I hope it does come true(well, not really) because there will be an explanation. Rather though I think it will simply be diverted, which is fine as well, I want the Aiel to have a good future, I absolutely love that entire culture.

 

Just incidentally do you know who wrote the Avi chapters in ToM? I thought they were RJ, but someone said they were BS?

The Rhuidean parts of ToM were by Brandon or almost entirely by him, I'm almost sure of it. I can't recall if he did confirm it himself in an interview, but that seems to be the prevailing opinion. They were my favorite part of either book that he did, because they accomplished their purpose perfectly: A splash of cold water in the face. Also, it's a section of his that actually stands up in re-reads. One theory I have for why they were as good as they were is because he was able to write something without so many constraints. Not only is it the future we've never experienced in any way other than headers and footers, but it's a future that probably isn't going to happen anyway so he could just paint it with his own creativity, and really didn't have the danger of forgetting to stay within the framework of the plot like everywhere else (and that framework is very complex). None of the characters, save for Aviendha, who is basically confused or in shock most of the time, are ones we've ever read a PoV of before, so there's almost no possibility of being jarred out of the telling by people acting out of character. He could be daring there, and it's really quite good, as opposed to other sections when he tries being daring and it results in people acting strange or the mechanics of the world being twisted.

 

The problem with the Rhuidean parts is that they don't make any sense. The history of the future shown there is full of glaring plotholes. The timeline makes no sense. Which is - unfortunately - a prevailiong problem with BS.

 

 

While I absolutely loved this part and I think it is Brandon's best work, I have to agree.

 

It is not believable at all, there are so many things that just don't make sense. Where is Egwene, Elayne and Aviendha? They should live at least 200 years. Where is Mat and Perrin in the earlier years?

 

What of Lan and Nynaeve?

 

Amys, Sorelia and Melaine?

 

Not to mention that the Aiel are supposed to be destroyed and only a remnant of a remnant survive. How do they even have that many people left to fight?

 

What about the pact between the AS, WO and Windfinders?

 

What of the integration of male and female channelers?

 

Why on earth are they randomly on the Amloth Plain, conveniently right next to the Seanchan? (I think this may have been explained, so it might not be a problem)

 

What about the civil war in Seanchan? The Seanchan are weak on the mainland.

 

All we have is reference to Aviendha briefly and Tuon dying and the children of the Dragon.

 

The rest way into the future is a bit strange, we don't have much in the way of time-markers, but that's not too bad. The re-discovery of Shocklances so early seemed a bit off, and the fact that the Seanchan used Raken and not just Travel was a bit off. The way the other nations were dragged into war, convinced by a few stolen documents when the Seanchan hadn't broken the peace for years. There would have been diplomacy, not just jump straight into war.

 

However, the closer it comes to the "current" time, the more unbelievable it is. 20 years after the LB and basically ALL of the main characters are dead. Possible, but totally unbelievable.

 

Not one person can tell me they actually thought this future was believable the way it turned out after a few minutes of thought.

 

Now that's not to say I didn't enjoy it, I loved it, and I love the impact, the writing and the reasons for it, it was just totally unbelievable. Basically we see nothing of the growth and acceptance of different cultures and the gender situation. Literally it is a succession of the absolute worst possible things that could happen put together.

[sleepinghour]

Basically we see nothing of the growth and acceptance of different cultures and the gender situation. Literally it is a succession of the absolute worst possible things that could happen put together.

 

I almost hope I'm wrong about this (as it would mean Aviendha's Rhuidean storyline got royally messed up), but one possibility is that Jordan intended for her visions to be similar to those in Egwene's third Accepted test. As some might remember, Elayne gave Verin's ring to Aviendha as she was about to leave Caemlyn in KoD. The same ring previously interacted with the Accepted ter'angreal simply by being in the same room during Egwene's test. Interestingly, it was only during the third test—which also dealt with the future—that the ter'angreal went haywire, and Egwene saw a nightmarish version of the future with some grains of truth, like her being Amyrlin, the 13x13 process, and references to a 'purge' of the Black Ajah. It doesn't seem unlikely that something similar could have happened with the pillars, if Aviendha had in fact been carrying the ring when she went to Rhuidean.

 

Unfortunately, Brandon and Team Jordan forgot about Aviendha getting the ring, and instead had Sheriam steal it from the Sitters in TGS. At some point, Team Jordan realized their mistake and removed all references to Verin's ring in later editions of TGS. But that still doesn't tell us what happened to the ring or whether Aviendha brought it to Rhuidean. It seems very odd that RJ would arrange for Aviendha to get the ring for no reason at all; that's why I think she was meant to use it in some important way.

 

Furthermore, at a recent signing (of which there's no transcript yet I can link to, but someone put up an audio recording at 17th Shard), Brandon confirmed in response to a fan question that Nakomi is "an expert in the World of Dreams." So that's another sign pointing at a connection between Aviendha's visions and T'A'R.

[Barid Bel Medar]

I think what you suggest is very possible. I like the idea. It makes sense. Things went haywire with Avi, she was getting sucked in by the Pillars or something. Also, I can't remember, but didn't the Aes Sedai comment on the Accepted test seeming to be alive or something similar when the ring messed things up? If so, strikingly similar to how Avi thinks that the Pillars seem almost alive.

 

Also, to make clear, I wasn't talking about the quality of Brandon's writing here, since I have already said I loved it, I was just replying to the whole plot-hole thing making it totally unbelievable.

[Balefire to da face!]

Perhaps I will revisit this thread when I have reread TOM, but off the top of my head, I don't think the scene in Rhudean was completely unbelievable. The simple truth is that for a variety of reasons, not the least of which being literary demands, the future was never going to happen anyway. So getting too hung up on what should have happened is an exercise in futility.

 

A blanket, "Well that's what would have happened if Avi didn't fix the Rand/Aiel situation" explanation is valid....if perhaps unsatisfactory in some details. Maybe all of those characters died in the possible future that will never happen anyway because we all know RJ or BS isn't going to end the series that way.

 

Also, this whole plotline revolves around the Aiel, the Dragon's Peace, and what Rand will ask of the Aiel. While I admit it stretches condrulity to just say all of the answers lie in this one path being changed......what happens to the Aiel really does have the potential for huge shifts in geopolitical interactions. What Rand would does, and what Avi convinces him to do, realistically could make the difference in any number of things that will happen. Which is why I say it's a possible answer, but admit it's not necessarily satisfying in it's details.

 

Another blanket explanation is simply that the scene was not concerned with giving us a history lesson on all our favorite characters. Even ignoring everything else, all of these questions would have to be accompanied by specific reasons why a PoV in a given scene should have any reason TO think of these characters.

 

Some specific points, though (my opinion in bold )

 

While I absolutely loved this part and I think it is Brandon's best work, I have to agree.

 

It is not believable at all, there are so many things that just don't make sense. Where is Egwene, Elayne and Aviendha? They should live at least 200 years. Where is Mat and Perrin in the earlier years?

 

What of Lan and Nynaeve?

 

Amys, Sorelia and Melaine?

 

Not to mention that the Aiel are supposed to be destroyed and only a remnant of a remnant survive. How do they even have that many people left to fight?

 

Since the whole plot revolves around Avi, Rand, and his treatment of the Aiel it seems entirely likely that what Avi does sets things right. Perhaps one final, sad note for the Aiel is that the very thing that saves them from annihilation in the future is the preferable fate of being destroyed as a weapon of the Car'a'carn.

 

What about the pact between the AS, WO and Windfinders?

 

What of the integration of male and female channelers?

 

Why on earth are they randomly on the Amloth Plain, conveniently right next to the Seanchan? (I think this may have been explained, so it might not be a problem)

 

What about the civil war in Seanchan? The Seanchan are weak on the mainland.

 

A weak Seanchan is likely still stronger then most Randland nations.

 

All we have is reference to Aviendha briefly and Tuon dying and the children of the Dragon.

 

The rest way into the future is a bit strange, we don't have much in the way of time-markers, but that's not too bad. The re-discovery of Shocklances so early seemed a bit off, and the fact that the Seanchan used Raken and not just Travel was a bit off. The way the other nations were dragged into war, convinced by a few stolen documents when the Seanchan hadn't broken the peace for years. There would have been diplomacy, not just jump straight into war.

 

Traveling fulfills a different need then Raken scouting does. Aside from cultural tradtion, which by itself is probably enough to explain continued used, there are benefits to scouting from the air rather then pinging around from gateway to gateway.

 

 

However, the closer it comes to the "current" time, the more unbelievable it is. 20 years after the LB and basically ALL of the main characters are dead. Possible, but totally unbelievable.

 

Not one person can tell me they actually thought this future was believable the way it turned out after a few minutes of thought.

 

Now that's not to say I didn't enjoy it, I loved it, and I love the impact, the writing and the reasons for it, it was just totally unbelievable. Basically we see nothing of the growth and acceptance of different cultures and the gender situation. Literally it is a succession of the absolute worst possible things that could happen put together.

 

Yeah, but it's unbelievable no matter what. It's impossible to write that scene at all if we disqualify it on that merit. Whether Brandon wrote it, or Jordan wrote it a little differently. You lose the emotional impact of the scene and what COULD happen if as an author you constrain yourself by writing a scene that possibly could be believed as resolution to the series.

 

The important thing is that it's not unbelievable as a worst case scenario of in universe events. So that said, it performs it's task of being an emotionally wrenching "what it" worst case scenario.

 

[TheAngryDruid]

Put me in the camp that loved Avi's trip through the columns, but also had trouble digesting the likelihood of that future.

 

Not that the Aiel could necessarily come to a bad end, but the absence of so many prominent actors (Egwene, Nynaeve, Elayne, Moiraine) who should still be alive. The non-impact of the WO-WF-AS agreement. And some of the other things mentioned.

 

One thing that also doesn't make a lot of sense to me is that since Seanchan can't link, linked circles (pick Asha'man, WF, WO, AS, Kin) should be able to take them down. Teach everyone how to undo the bracelets, set up a defensible perimeter, and have a circle start pummeling them. Only the AS have taken the three oaths, and only the Kin are reluctant to fight. I don't see how the Seanchan could prevail in any conflict.

 

EDIT: Maybe we'll find out more in aMoL. But that didn't seem to make much sense to me.

[BFG]

Just incidentally do you know who wrote the Avi chapters in ToM? I thought they were RJ, but someone said they were BS?

The Rhuidean parts of ToM were by Brandon or almost entirely by him, I'm almost sure of it. I can't recall if he did confirm it himself in an interview, but that seems to be the prevailing opinion. They were my favorite part of either book that he did, because they accomplished their purpose perfectly: A splash of cold water in the face. Also, it's a section of his that actually stands up in re-reads. One theory I have for why they were as good as they were is because he was able to write something without so many constraints. Not only is it the future we've never experienced in any way other than headers and footers, but it's a future that probably isn't going to happen anyway so he could just paint it with his own creativity, and really didn't have the danger of forgetting to stay within the framework of the plot like everywhere else (and that framework is very complex). None of the characters, save for Aviendha, who is basically confused or in shock most of the time, are ones we've ever read a PoV of before, so there's almost no possibility of being jarred out of the telling by people acting out of character. He could be daring there, and it's really quite good, as opposed to other sections when he tries being daring and it results in people acting strange or the mechanics of the world being twisted.

 

The problem with the Rhuidean parts is that they don't make any sense. The history of the future shown there is full of glaring plotholes. The timeline makes no sense. Which is - unfortunately - a prevailiong problem with BS.

 

 

While I absolutely loved this part and I think it is Brandon's best work, I have to agree.

 

It is not believable at all, there are so many things that just don't make sense. Where is Egwene, Elayne and Aviendha? They should live at least 200 years. Where is Mat and Perrin in the earlier years?

 

What of Lan and Nynaeve?

 

Amys, Sorelia and Melaine?

 

Not to mention that the Aiel are supposed to be destroyed and only a remnant of a remnant survive. How do they even have that many people left to fight?

 

What about the pact between the AS, WO and Windfinders?

 

What of the integration of male and female channelers?

 

Why on earth are they randomly on the Amloth Plain, conveniently right next to the Seanchan? (I think this may have been explained, so it might not be a problem)

 

What about the civil war in Seanchan? The Seanchan are weak on the mainland.

 

All we have is reference to Aviendha briefly and Tuon dying and the children of the Dragon.

 

The rest way into the future is a bit strange, we don't have much in the way of time-markers, but that's not too bad. The re-discovery of Shocklances so early seemed a bit off, and the fact that the Seanchan used Raken and not just Travel was a bit off. The way the other nations were dragged into war, convinced by a few stolen documents when the Seanchan hadn't broken the peace for years. There would have been diplomacy, not just jump straight into war.

 

However, the closer it comes to the "current" time, the more unbelievable it is. 20 years after the LB and basically ALL of the main characters are dead. Possible, but totally unbelievable.

 

Not one person can tell me they actually thought this future was believable the way it turned out after a few minutes of thought.

 

Now that's not to say I didn't enjoy it, I loved it, and I love the impact, the writing and the reasons for it, it was just totally unbelievable. Basically we see nothing of the growth and acceptance of different cultures and the gender situation. Literally it is a succession of the absolute worst possible things that could happen put together.

 

Actually I disagree about the plot plausability.

 

*Takes a deep breath*

 

Imagine that following TG in a period of huge upheaval - it's likely to be a breaking again- something absolutely dreadful happens (don't know what) - maybe Elayne, Avi and Min all disappear with Rand somewhere (assuming he's properly alive at the time), Tuon and Mat get assassinated (as per current attempts), Gawyn has chosen the short violent life and Eg gets caught up with it, I don't remember any prophecies that say the Wise Ones live beyond TG, so maybe they die there. I don't know what the tragedy is, but it (or they) happen(s) sometime in the next 20 years. If you accept that could happen then the rest becomes believable. Yes it's unlikely that Elayne would abandon Andor or her children,so maybe she's assassinated as well - she only has prophecy armor until the twins are born, same with Avi and her 4 kids. The only protection Mat and Tuon have is that they're supposed to star in the outriggers - but in this alternative future they're killed and the novels would never happen. But since Avi did go through the pillars again, she knows some of what needs to be done and so we get the furure we want instead of this one, allows the novels to be written if not for the fact this is currently vetoed.

 

Their's a thread dedicated to explaining why the Seanchan would win a war against Randland, and the only convincing argument against it is if the Randland unite immediately - in this future that doesn't happen, presumably because the current Leaders who are pro-unification are MIA.

 

As for why the future's so dark, the best explanation I've heard is that it's the future that would have occured if Rand hadn't had his VoG moment (the clouds clear as she's going through the second time, so it's likely the future she saw is the future where Dark Rand won (according to Cads that wouldn't be like winning at all). Before he had his epiphany, he (and many Ashaman) viewed themselves as nothing more that weapons - based on this it's unlikely a full integration of the Tower would have occured. Without Egwene, and if the WO do die at TG then their isn't really going to be anyone driving through the changes - currently the AS don't like them, it's unlikely Eg will get them to change their minds completely any time soon...

 

As to why it's an alternative future - we know their are portal worlds where every time you toss a coin the worlds split as 1 goes to heads and 1 goes to tails. Rand's epiphany acts as this toin coss and splits the worlds.

 

Anyway, there are lots of arguments I could make about why this future could of happened, but won't anymore, but it's quite late now, so (maybe tomorrow if it's still being discussed)...

[Barid Bel Medar]

I think you are both misunderstanding what I am saying.

 

The Seanchan would win in a war against anyone, they are too strong. That's not the point.

 

I am not saying it can't happen in some distant realm of possibility.

 

I am saying that the events and things left out make it quite clear that it won't happen.

 

The future is so rife with unlikely events and improbabilities (like everyone being dead) that it leaves no doubt that it won't happen.

 

I have said I loved how it was done and enjoyed it immensely. But it was in no way intended to make people believe that this would happen. It was a warning, Nakomi even explains it for us. It is an emotional plot device to develop the Aiel and Aviendha plotline and show how the faults of the Aiel would lead them to destruction.

 

It is heart-wrenching, but you know that it isn't going to happen.

 

What I am saying is that Csarmi is correct, it is rife with inconsistencies, but it is intentional, not a mistake by the author. It was never meant to be a plausible and believable future.

[BFG]

I think I understand - I agree it was never intended to be the future, and I don't think we were ever meant to believe that it would be. But I disagree and think that it could be, given Rands state of mind at the time and his importance to the future of the world.

[Barid Bel Medar]

I still think you are missing my point.

 

I never said it was impossible. It could happen, just that it is so unbelievable that it leaves people with no doubt that it won't happen.

 

 

But enough on that, we should really get back on topic.

[Shawnchan]

Mark. I could be wrong...but it is very much my understanding that the Elaida/Egwene scene / mostly written by Jordan - was SPLIT UP into two seperate chapters by Sanderson (where before ot had been one continuous scene) but that the content was mostly left alone.

 

 

Fish

Just a question. Why do you feel the need to display your name after every post? shawn.

[Suttree]

[Removed]

 

Here is this absurd notion rearing it's head one again that critique is "hating". I honestly would like to know how we have reached this tragic state in society in which any negative critical analysis is shouted down instead of honestly debated.

 

This post has the double whammy of once again implying that critics should somehow be able to "do it better"(ironically something you claimed you were not saying in another thread). I have said it before but are you seriously implying that in order for a critic like Harold Bloom to be able to cut into an author such as Pynchon's work, he needs to be able to "do it better" than the author himself? Of course not, the idea is preposterous.

[Apoc81]

[Removed]

 

Here is this absurd notion rearing it's head one again that critique is "hating". I honestly would like to know how we have reached this tragic state in society in which any negative critical analysis is shouted down instead of honestly debated.

 

This post has the double whammy of once again implying that critics should somehow be able to "do it better"(ironically something you claimed you were not saying in another thread). I have said it before but are you seriously implying that in order for a critic like Harold Bloom to be able to cut into an author such as Pynchon's work, he needs to be able to "do it better" than the author himself? Of course not, the idea is preposterous.

 

I am not talking about honest critiquing Suttree, I am talking about those who show outright animosity towards Brandon and his work. Nowhere did I mention you or Luckers. I have read this whole thread over the last couple of days when I wasn't busy, and many of the people here do very little actual criticism, instead going straight to bashing. I didn't name names for a reason, because it would just create a larger conflict.

 

Though I will say, in regards to your Signature, that is the kind of bashing I am talking about. That is not critique, its bashing, and its what makes this place so toxic to many who visit.

[Suttree]

[Removed]

 

Here is this absurd notion rearing it's head one again that critique is "hating". I honestly would like to know how we have reached this tragic state in society in which any negative critical analysis is shouted down instead of honestly debated.

 

This post has the double whammy of once again implying that critics should somehow be able to "do it better"(ironically something you claimed you were not saying in another thread). I have said it before but are you seriously implying that in order for a critic like Harold Bloom to be able to cut into an author such as Pynchon's work, he needs to be able to "do it better" than the author himself? Of course not, the idea is preposterous.

 

I am not talking about honest critiquing Suttree, I am talking about those who show outright animosity towards Brandon and his work. Nowhere did I mention you or Luckers. I have read this whole thread over the last couple of days when I wasn't busy, and many of the people here do very little criticism, instead go straight to bashing. I didn't name names for a reason, because it would just create a larger conflict.

 

Oh I didn't think you were, the thing is as mentioned I can count the people here at DM who just bash without any basis on one hand(really all I can think of are two posters, Maybe I am missing something...

[Apoc81]

[Removed]

 

Here is this absurd notion rearing it's head one again that critique is "hating". I honestly would like to know how we have reached this tragic state in society in which any negative critical analysis is shouted down instead of honestly debated.

 

This post has the double whammy of once again implying that critics should somehow be able to "do it better"(ironically something you claimed you were not saying in another thread). I have said it before but are you seriously implying that in order for a critic like Harold Bloom to be able to cut into an author such as Pynchon's work, he needs to be able to "do it better" than the author himself? Of course not, the idea is preposterous.

 

I am not talking about honest critiquing Suttree, I am talking about those who show outright animosity towards Brandon and his work. Nowhere did I mention you or Luckers. I have read this whole thread over the last couple of days when I wasn't busy, and many of the people here do very little criticism, instead go straight to bashing. I didn't name names for a reason, because it would just create a larger conflict.

 

Oh I didn't think you were, the thing is as mentioned I can count the people here at DM who just bash without any basis on one hand(really all I can think of are two posters, [Removed]). Maybe I am missing something...

 

Forgive me. I have lurked once in a while, but have never spent a great deal of time here. So perhaps these few who go out of their way to be toxic really are nothing more than trolls. Perhaps explanations for the angst is elsewhere in other threads I have not seen. But this thread specificly, i've seen a ton of arguing, but very little fact. And many of the criticisms on Brandon could easily be thrown at Robert Jordan as well, aside from the difference in writing style.

 

I couldn't handle another Aes Sedai Sniffing and smoothing her dress without wanting to strangle her. I also did not need the same place described ten times through the same eyes, as Jordan often did. Neither writers are perfect, and both have different styles, but Brandons work on the series is far from bad.

[yoniy0]

People, we don't insult or bully other posters around here, not even if we omit their names. If you see something you object to, feel free to complain to staff. But calling someone names will earn you a temp-ban.

[Apoc81]

Wait, you Deleted my whole post over one comment, instead of removing that single comment? How sad. I wrote a long, well thought out post, and it was removed because it defended Brandon. That is the only conclusion I can come up with, because none of it was offensive, except for maybe the last paragraph. That is horrible moderation. Truly sad. I could understand editing it, but deleting the whole comment? Geez.

[yoniy0]

That is the only conclusion I can come up with

Then I'm disappointed; it was most definitely removed for the way you handled yourself and not the position you took. Fear not, your post is safe in our records. If you want to discuss the reasons for its removal feel free to PM Barid, Luckers or myself; we don't mind going over the whole thing in PM and hearing you out if you want parts of it reinstated.

 

However, you do not appeal staff decisions in the public threads. Per our code of conduct (and really just for your own benefit) you should always take it to PM. I left this comment alone, but be forewarned that any further activity of that sort will be dealt with under the understanding that you've been made aware of our policy.

[sumquy]

i understand the criticism that luckers and others feel about BS' writing, i just disagree with their conclusion. i think that he did an excellent job of finishing the story. i can go for a hundred and sometimes two hundred pages without something in the scene reminding me that it wasn't RJ who wrote it. i think that he carried all of the major scenes very well, and that it is unreasonable to expect or demand more from him. unfortunately RJ died before he could finish it, but i don't understand why some think that team jordan should have gotten a different author. I don't think that any author could have written books as scrutinised as these and not had small discrepencies show up in them. minor issues<good storytelling = good job