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A WHEEL OF TIME COMMUNITY

Shouldn't Aviendha keep her *%^^ pants on?


fyodor
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Didn't she see a vision where successive generations of her descendants made it worse and worse for the Aiel until they were effectively destroyed? Why is she so anxious to find Rand and conceive with him? Wouldn't it be better to avoid the destruction of her people by going childless?

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I think that is far too simplistic a reading on things. The problems with the Aiel are more widespread than just her bloodline. The main problem, is that the Aiel don't have a function in a peaceful world, and Rand hasn't planned for them. That is the problem that needs to be solved.

 

Plus, women (and men) conceiving the night before a big battle is hardly a new thing.

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I agree with TheAngryDruid and I've argued this before. Not only it's a simplistic way of reading the viewings, it's just flat out wrong and Avi is completely wrong to think that it's her descendants who are the main problem. The viewings make it very clear that those same decisions were going to be made regardless of their involvement.

First, In the Padra scene, when Padra shows up the decision is pretty much made. Rand's children are consulted but they are not the driving force behind the decision to attack the Seanchan. Padra didn't even have any idea that the topic was going to be discussed.

 

And even in Oncala's scene the idea to trick the Andoran queen is not hers.

 

"Is this right?" Hehyal asked as they walked, their spears surrounding them to keep away prying ears.

Oncala started. "It was your plan."

 

The whole (and the only) point of Avi's visions is to tell the Aiel that they need to change their warlike ways. That's the real problem with them in the viewings and not Rand's children.

"But war?" Padra said. "Is it right?" "I do not know," Ronam said softly. "We are Aiel. It is what we know

how to do."

Nakomi's scene drives the same point too as do a number of other things in the earlier books.

Edited by herid
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Didn't she see a vision where successive generations of her descendants made it worse and worse for the Aiel until they were effectively destroyed? Why is she so anxious to find Rand and conceive with him? Wouldn't it be better to avoid the destruction of her people by going childless?

 

It's not really that simple, nobody actually knows what the glass columns really show. If she doesn't have kids, the Aiel will just go to war sooner rather than later. But I don't think that was meant to be the point. I think it, like the original viewings from the columns was meant to show the flaws in the ideals of the Aiel. The message is that, with a ideology it's easy to become corrupt or have the message be tainted over the years.

 

Personally I think that the Aiel we see now are going to join the Tinkers and become the peacekeeping force for Randland, at first they'll use superior military to keep the peace, then eventually they'll become associated with peace and nonviolence and morph into the Jenn as we saw them in the Age of Legends.

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I never said that they were solely responsible, but at each step her descendants intervene at critical decision points to make things worse. The fact that Rand's daughter is consulted seems to imply that there was some possibility that absent her recommendation they would not have gone to war. Similarly, it seems that Aveiendha's granddaughter's standing as such has some impact on their convincing the queen of Andor to join the war. At the very least, someone else in her position might have chosen differently or better.

 

 

 

I agree with TheAngryDruid and I've argued this before. Not only it's a simplistic way of reading the viewings, it's just flat out wrong and Avi is completely wrong to think that it's her descendants who are the main problem. The viewings make it very clear that those same decisions were going to be made regardless of their involvement.

First, In the Padra scene, when Padra shows up the decision is pretty much made. Rand's children are consulted but they are not the driving force behind the decision to attack the Seanchan. Padra didn't even have any idea that the topic was going to be discussed.

 

And even in Oncala's scene the idea to trick the Andoran queen is not hers.

 

"Is this right?" Hehyal asked as they walked, their spears surrounding them to keep away prying ears.

Oncala started. "It was your plan."

 

The whole (and the only) point of Avi's visions is to tell the Aiel that they need to change their warlike ways. That's the real problem with them in the viewings and not Rand's children.

"But war?" Padra said. "Is it right?" "I do not know," Ronam said softly. "We are Aiel. It is what we know

how to do."

Nakomi's scene drives the same point too as do a number of other things in the earlier books.

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I never said that they were solely responsible, but at each step her descendants intervene at critical decision points to make things worse. The fact that Rand's daughter is consulted seems to imply that there was some possibility that absent her recommendation they would not have gone to war.

I definitely disagree with that. Read the scene again. Rand's children didn't suggest that the Aiel should attack the Seanchan. They didn't call the meeting and they didn't bring it up. Padra had no clue this was even on the agenda. And there is not a single voice raised objecting to the decision. They all want to do it. every single person who speaks, speaks in favor of it. And they all speak before Padra and her siblings say anything. They are the last to voice their opinions. None of them changed anybody's point of view.

Similarly, it seems that Aveiendha's granddaughter's standing as such has some impact on their convincing the queen of Andor to join the war. At the very least, someone else in her position might have chosen differently or better.

as I said, the quote I gave makes clear that the idea of tricking the Andoran queen was Hehyal's not Oncala's. This was going to happen no matter what eventually. and in any case, the key decision was the decision to go to war made in the Padra scene, not in the Oncala one.

Edited by herid
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I never said that they were solely responsible, but at each step her descendants intervene at critical decision points to make things worse. The fact that Rand's daughter is consulted seems to imply that there was some possibility that absent her recommendation they would not have gone to war.

I definitely disagree with that. Read the scene again. Rand's children didn't suggest that the Aiel should attack the Seanchan. They didn't call the meeting and they didn't bring it up. Padra had no clue this was even on the agenda. And there is not a single voice raised objecting to the decision. They all want to do it. every single person who speaks, speaks in favor of it. And they all speak before Padra and her siblings say anything. They are the last to voice their opinions. None of them changed anybody's point of view.

I agree. Also, it seems to us that her descendants are there at each critical step because that's all we see--by definition, the visions are through the eyes of her descendants. Somebody else going through the columns might see another set of events, that may be just as critical. We just don't know because our perspective is limited.

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exactly. In fact, in the Oncala scene she is little more than a bystander. While reader's attention is cleverly diverted into hating her for the despicable human being that she is, she keeps her mouth very firmly shut through the entire negotiation with the Andoran queen. Hehayal does all the taking and it's later revealed that the whole plan was his not Oncala's. So Oncala, didn't plan it, didn't steal the Seanchan plans (Hehayal did), didn't say a single word during the critical negotiations with Talana and yet somehow she is being blamed for everything by both the readers and Avi. The only reason for that is because it's her POV because Avi is seeing through her eyes.

Edited by herid
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Regardless of the role Avi's children play in Aiel's destruction shouldn't not having them still be a desirable option? It would certainly ensure that the future she saw will not come to pass exactly the same way, and from there on she can do everything in her power to fix the faults that lead them to doom.

Edited by driedraspberry
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Regardless of the role Avi's children play in Aiel's destruction shouldn't not having them still be a desirable option? It would certainly ensure that the future she saw will not come to pass exactly the same way, and from there on she can do everything in her power to fix the faults that lead them to doom.

 

It's been stated constantly, the wheel allows for deviation in the pattern as a whole. But individuals with a set pattern not so much. The Age lace says what the Age should look like, and events can go how they want so long as they fit within the general notion of what that Age is supposed to be. The more you move off from that, the more the pattern struggles to try to weave out ahead of you to fit things back into it's original weave.

 

That being said, I think that because Rand is a Taveran it has pulled a lot of strings into the pattern in a particular way, the whole of the Aiel was spun out to be weapons and protectors for the Dragon so far as we know. They are pretty much directly a result of the pattern weaving out what it needs. Strong, honest hardworkers who respect Rand as a leader and will follow him and fight for him when need be. After the LB, then just like Ta'veren they lose their "protected status" within the pattern, they are no longer valued for their original purpose to the pattern and therefore must actually find their place within the age lace, but because they've spend all of this time honing themselves as weapons, they have little other purpose than surviving and fighting. So we get the future we see in the columns, the Aiel trying to be who they were and not changing with the pattern, and creating an imbalance in the pattern, so slowly it has to weave them out to make way for the new Age Lace until they are needed again.

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I should point out that regardless of wether she should or should not keep her pants on, we have a Min viewing already that shows that she will have four children by Rand. So we know that she doesn't.

 

Once Min has a viewing, she has no chance. Free will is imaginary in the WoT.

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I should point out that regardless of wether she should or should not keep her pants on, we have a Min viewing already that shows that she will have four children by Rand. So we know that she doesn't.

 

Once Min has a viewing, she has no chance. Free will is imaginary in the WoT.

 

Wouldn't this mean the DO can't ever win?

 

Actually, I think Min has foggy viewings that come clearer as people make specific choices. Thought once an image is clear, the characters are put on a path that cannot be diverted.

Though, I wonder what would happen if Min stabbed someone she saw viewings around...

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I should point out that regardless of wether she should or should not keep her pants on, we have a Min viewing already that shows that she will have four children by Rand. So we know that she doesn't.

 

Once Min has a viewing, she has no chance. Free will is imaginary in the WoT.

 

Wouldn't this mean the DO can't ever win?

 

Actually, I think Min has foggy viewings that come clearer as people make specific choices. Thought once an image is clear, the characters are put on a path that cannot be diverted.

Though, I wonder what would happen if Min stabbed someone she saw viewings around...

 

She'll slip and miss. Or Nyn will fall through a gateway just in time. I can only imagine if a psychotic murderer had her talents and was thwarted by fate.

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Wouldn't this mean the DO can't ever win?

Don't think about fate/(trying to alter what is destined to be) it's not logical and will give you a headache. That being said, here is the logic:

1. The Dark One can win because if he does time stops. Therefore the viewings become irrelevant. If all every person's life is a book, Min sometimes gets a sneak peak of a later chapter. The Dark One wins, the whole library burns.

 

 

Actually, I think Min has foggy viewings that come clearer as people make specific choices. Thought once an image is clear, the characters are put on a path that cannot be diverted.

As far as I know, and the way it's been described it doesn't seem to work like that. Much more black and white. She sees something. If she understands it, it will occur. The only question is when.

 

Though, I wonder what would happen if Min stabbed someone she saw viewings around...

2. The logic behind that is: She has that viewing because even knowing, she won't stab them. If she was going to stab them, she would have seen a much bloodier viewing for them.
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