Chapter 2: Plot Specific

[MasterAblar]

Bringing back the Black Tower topic...

 

I don't think you need to take Androl's team viewpoint of the things as very determining the reality. I am not saying they are not right - Logain may be captured, and he may done the things in the way they think he have done them. But the truth easily may be a lot more different, as we often see to happen in the series. What I mean is... They assume Logain is captured based on the capturing of Wylin( cannot spell the name right, can't remember it from the books). But to capture one bird and to capture all birds is a whole different thing. If Taim's men attacked Logain and his fellows, it's sure there was battle between them. And in battles there are four tipes of men - alive, those who ran away, captured and dead. And this four categories aren't bound to who wins and who losses, you may be winner and the enemy could still capture your men and take them away. So it's safe to assume this may have happened to Wilyn, being captured by Taim's men in a battle betweet the two factions. Or just being captured while hiding somewhere, or doing something for Logain/Rand or both. Don't forget - Light and Shadow are in war now, no hidings, which in the realm of BT it would mean more open conflct between the two factions. Who in BT can say what happened 100 leagues away, in some unknown village or town, especially when BT is left to it's own by Rand, and Taim, the newest Forsaken is in charge.

 

The situation it's very messy. I don't feel confident in my understanding in BT plots, I mean we know many things about the place, the people in it and the schemes between the fractions, but so much is left untold that we can make only assumptions about it. I think we know too little for BT to be able to make anything more than wild guesses.

 

I certainly wouldn't trust anything a darkfriend or turned Asha'man said. The situation doesn't look good for Logain, but that may be precisely the impression Taim is trying to give.

 

Also, where is Naeff? How long does it take to change your appearance and sneak into to the BT?

[Barid Bel Medar]

 

 

Also, where is Naeff? How long does it take to change your appearance and sneak into to the BT?

 

The Black Tower plotline is behind by several days, possibly more than a week. This is all before Naeff was sent.

[MasterAblar]

Also, where is Naeff? How long does it take to change your appearance and sneak into to the BT?

 

The Black Tower plotline is behind by several days, possibly more than a week. This is all before Naeff was sent.

 

Oh, I figured it had been mostly caught up, up to the day before the FoM essentially. Makes sense if it's still behind by a couple days. I wonder what role he'll play, Naeff that is.

[Rufae]

Why does everybody assume they know what Rand knows? This whole series is riddled with secrets and behind the scenes plotting. For all we know, Rand may have complete knowledge of everything going on in the BT. If so, you would have to conclude he has a plan to correct it or he's using it to his advantage.

 

Rand knows about Taim and the mess that the BT is in as of TOM. Shortly after Veins of Gold, Rand thinks about the BT and said it was a problem that he has been ignoring for too long. He wanted weapons from the BT,Men to fight and die at the LB and outsourced it to Taim. So as long as he was getting Ashamen when he needed them, he didn't care what went on there. That was before Veins of Gold. Afterwards, he knew he had to correct it before the LB.

 

Since Rand is tied up at FOM and afterwards I assume he is going to Shyol Ghul, I think Rand will charge Logain with the restoration of the BT and the defeat of Taim since Rand doesn't have the time to fight that battle and the Last Battle too. That will be Logain's glory.

[Suttree]

Why does everybody assume they know what Rand knows? This whole series is riddled with secrets and behind the scenes plotting. For all we know, Rand may have complete knowledge of everything going on in the BT. If so, you would have to conclude he has a plan to correct it or he's using it to his advantage.

 

Rand knows about Taim and the mess that the BT is in as of TOM.

 

Does he? He suspects something amiss but IIRC he has no idea of the extent of the problem and the turnings.

[Stevros]

I'm wondering if the double link might actually be the thing that causes being 13x13'd to be undone. Based on what RJ himself said about being 13x13 he said it promoted the dark impulses in a person to being stronger. He states that it is possible to turn back to the light, but unlikely to happen unaided So if someone could virtually read your thoughts they might be able to pass on emotions etc (look at the closeness of Elayne and Birgitte two women bond).

 

I feel this may lead to the 13x13ing to prove completely ineffective on them, leading to them deducing the reason and thus starting a mass bonding of Asha'man, this may also be supported by the fact Taim does not allow Pevara to bond any full Asha'man.

[Tenesmus]

Anyone think that Logain is actually hiding out with the Salidar Aes Sedai? That's why they are holding still? He may be cooking up something with them to overthrow Taim.

 

I like this.

[Rufae]

I'm wondering if the double link might actually be the thing that causes being 13x13'd to be undone. Based on what RJ himself said about being 13x13 he said it promoted the dark impulses in a person to being stronger. He states that it is possible to turn back to the light, but unlikely to happen unaided So if someone could virtually read your thoughts they might be able to pass on emotions etc (look at the closeness of Elayne and Birgitte two women bond).

 

I feel this may lead to the 13x13ing to prove completely ineffective on them, leading to them deducing the reason and thus starting a mass bonding of Asha'man, this may also be supported by the fact Taim does not allow Pevara to bond any full Asha'man.

 

I can see this. Good call.

[fuzz1717]

I'm wondering if the double link might actually be the thing that causes being 13x13'd to be undone. Based on what RJ himself said about being 13x13 he said it promoted the dark impulses in a person to being stronger. He states that it is possible to turn back to the light, but unlikely to happen unaided So if someone could virtually read your thoughts they might be able to pass on emotions etc (look at the closeness of Elayne and Birgitte two women bond).

 

I feel this may lead to the 13x13ing to prove completely ineffective on them, leading to them deducing the reason and thus starting a mass bonding of Asha'man, this may also be supported by the fact Taim does not allow Pevara to bond any full Asha'man.

 

I can see this. Good call.

 

I can also see this. It fits well with the whole idea of yin and yang, of men and women working together to achieve a common goal. Not exactly sure if it would undo a 13x13 though, that would seem too neat a fix. I mean come on, someone has to die or turn evil...

[Razdif]

Maybe not turn somebody back but I could see it preventing somebody from being turned, like some kind of emotional shield.

[Finnssss22]

I'm wondering if the double link might actually be the thing that causes being 13x13'd to be undone. Based on what RJ himself said about being 13x13 he said it promoted the dark impulses in a person to being stronger. He states that it is possible to turn back to the light, but unlikely to happen unaided So if someone could virtually read your thoughts they might be able to pass on emotions etc (look at the closeness of Elayne and Birgitte two women bond).

 

I feel this may lead to the 13x13ing to prove completely ineffective on them, leading to them deducing the reason and thus starting a mass bonding of Asha'man, this may also be supported by the fact Taim does not allow Pevara to bond any full Asha'man.

 

Not a bad theory, might be a little farfetched though.

My first thought was that it would greatly reduce the disadvantage of linking. For example, normally Androl would have to wait for Pevara to verbally/physically tell/show Androl something before he could react to it. Now she would just think it and Androl would know to react.

[The Fisher King]

 

For those that haven't seen...its already been posted that Maria Twittereeed about it that they are on top of this and looking into it quickly with high hopes of a pre-release correction...sooo, most likely just an error.

 

 

Fish

[Hyronimus]

I'm wondering if the double link might actually be the thing that causes being 13x13'd to be undone. Based on what RJ himself said about being 13x13 he said it promoted the dark impulses in a person to being stronger. He states that it is possible to turn back to the light, but unlikely to happen unaided So if someone could virtually read your thoughts they might be able to pass on emotions etc (look at the closeness of Elayne and Birgitte two women bond).

 

I feel this may lead to the 13x13ing to prove completely ineffective on them, leading to them deducing the reason and thus starting a mass bonding of Asha'man, this may also be supported by the fact Taim does not allow Pevara to bond any full Asha'man.

 

How would you get a turned person to bond someone not turned? the single bond doesn't seem to help as both appear turned.

 

I wonder how strong Androl is while linked? I'd like him to take down that bully from ToM.

 

As Important as gateways will be, it doesn't seem in the cards for them to cut and run (though evacuating civilians maybe). Androl wants to make a fight of it at least- you can imagine the affects of a gateway opened up inside someone (where is that evil grin icon?)

 

I wonder what the rate of turning is? Anyone thinking the turning procession in the prologue was for that latest Ash'man?

 

Logain being a prisoner seems plausable to me, breaking him and who ever is left out would bolster the good guys' numbers.

 

Interesting to see whitebridge become a new stageing ground, from Perrin trading his good grain with the towns folk, the refugees from the west described in the prologue heading that way to the refugees from Camyln being sent there. Any chance something ccol may be done with the whitebridge itself? could it be some kind of Ter'angreal?

 

At the least I see a battle brewing as it becomes a choicer target.

 

I'm guessing we'll get another 'it's okay with me that we share rand' moment as Avi has her time with him. I like how it's the women manageing this (only way this kind of relationship could work IMO). As the Aiel custom goes, the man seldom has much choice in the end. I would like to see a Aiel style marriage ceremony; who would fight with Rand?

[TheAngryDruid]

I must admit, I'm a bit muddled on the timeline for the BT in regards to comings and goings regarding Logain, Mezar, Sando, and Weilyn. Hard for me to comment there.

 

For a while, I thought that using saidar and saidin together might be the "key" to get past the dreamspike, but that doesn't make much sense, as the Shadow has to know that Logain's faction had bonded AS for a while now, plus Rand's actions at the Cleansing. Still, there has to be some way to get around it. Androl has the patience of a master craftsman, he can find the "key" if anyone can, he just needs the boost in strength from Pevara, and her not freaking out, to find it. I think the news on Logain will provide the motivation.

 

Once they get out, I think they will go right to the AS outside. They've been sitting there in opposition to all reason for multiple books now. A sure sign in WoT world they are needed in some plot resolution. Androl will have a lot of Soldiers and Dedicated, but only 1 Aes Sedai, a group of AS are sitting right there, and wanting to bond Asha'man, they'll have to settle for what Androl and Pevara bring them.

 

From that point, they can either go back in and fight, or go to the FoM or WT and get reinforcements. Perrin has channelers experienced in man/woman link, as does Rand. Either way, they should act quickly. With the spike there, the BT thinks they are safe from opposing channelers dropping in. This fact, and the fact that there is ALWAYS channeling going on, could work to the advantage of an attacking force.

 

As for reversing the 13x13 trick, I think Nyneave will figure it out. The darkness in Naeff's mind was described as a Shadow/blackness. I believe the process of the 13x13 has to be something similar. Just instead of making the person insane, it makes them turn evil.

[Barid Bel Medar]

In reply to the "key" I thought it was set up from the start, when an Asha'man mentions Androl's skill with Gateways (in the RJ books). He just needs his Gateway Talent bolstered by Saidar to break through the Dreamspike

[Amandera]

What about Elaida's prophecy then? If Androl beats the dreamspike, they'll just escape. I'm expecting a big battle in BT with Logain coming back and being awesome.

[herid]

@Barid I don't think Androl's skill with gateways was mentioned prior to TOM. He is only mentioned once before TOM (in WH prologue) and I can't find anything about his skill with gateways there. But regardless, him linking with Pevara to beat the dreamspike is probably one of the easiest things to predict now.

I don't see linking or the double bond being relevant in reversing the 13x13 turning. As Hyronimus said, such linking would have to be done willingly by both parties and that's hard to envision. But it would be nice if it was possible to reverse the 13x13 turning somehow. Maybe Nyn can heal it as The AngryDruid suggests. As for further developments at the BT I wonder if Rand and Cadsuane will be involved beside Logain and Androl.

Cadsuane is still supposed to teach all the Asha'man something. Hard to see where else she can do that. And there is a dream of Egwene about Logain stepping over something that looks like Rand's body onto a black stone (aCoS, ch 10). BS said that the podium in Taim's palace is made out of Shayol Ghul black rock so this could be related.

[Manel Rochaid]

I'm wondering if the double link might actually be the thing that causes being 13x13'd to be undone. Based on what RJ himself said about being 13x13 he said it promoted the dark impulses in a person to being stronger. He states that it is possible to turn back to the light, but unlikely to happen unaided So if someone could virtually read your thoughts they might be able to pass on emotions etc (look at the closeness of Elayne and Birgitte two women bond).

 

I feel this may lead to the 13x13ing to prove completely ineffective on them, leading to them deducing the reason and thus starting a mass bonding of Asha'man, this may also be supported by the fact Taim does not allow Pevara to bond any full Asha'man.

 

How would you get a turned person to bond someone not turned? the single bond doesn't seem to help as both appear turned.

 

 

 

@Barid I don't think Androl's skill with gateways was mentioned prior to TOM. He is only mentioned once before TOM (in WH prologue) and I can't find anything about his skill with gateways there. But regardless, him linking with Pevara to beat the dreamspike is probably one of the easiest things to predict now.

I don't see linking or the double bond being relevant in reversing the 13x13 turning.

 

Could possibly link in with an advantage men have over women. What if an Asha'man bonded a 13x13'd Aes Sedai, and ordered her to bond him?

[Stevros]

@Barid I don't think Androl's skill with gateways was mentioned prior to TOM. He is only mentioned once before TOM (in WH prologue) and I can't find anything about his skill with gateways there. But regardless, him linking with Pevara to beat the dreamspike is probably one of the easiest things to predict now.

I don't see linking or the double bond being relevant in reversing the 13x13 turning. As Hyronimus said, such linking would have to be done willingly by both parties and that's hard to envision. But it would be nice if it was possible to reverse the 13x13 turning somehow. Maybe Nyn can heal it as The AngryDruid suggests. As for further developments at the BT I wonder if Rand and Cadsuane will be involved beside Logain and Androl.

Cadsuane is still supposed to teach all the Asha'man something. Hard to see where else she can do that. And there is a dream of Egwene about Logain stepping over something that looks like Rand's body onto a black stone (aCoS, ch 10). BS said that the podium in Taim's palace is made out of Shayol Ghul black rock so this could be related.

 

in TGS Chapter 5 Flinn apologizes to Rand and says he is not as good as Androl at making gateways.

[Stevros]

 

How would you get a turned person to bond someone not turned? the single bond doesn't seem to help as both appear turned.

 

 

I was thinking the double bond might stop the 13x13ing work at all, I think a single bond may still help the others if not always a sure thing. (If its not a sure thing might be interesting to see some Aes Sedai or Asha'man bonded to others that are gone beyond helping and how the dynamic between the two works out.)

[herid]

@Barid I don't think Androl's skill with gateways was mentioned prior to TOM. He is only mentioned once before TOM (in WH prologue) and I can't find anything about his skill with gateways there. But regardless, him linking with Pevara to beat the dreamspike is probably one of the easiest things to predict now.

I don't see linking or the double bond being relevant in reversing the 13x13 turning. As Hyronimus said, such linking would have to be done willingly by both parties and that's hard to envision. But it would be nice if it was possible to reverse the 13x13 turning somehow. Maybe Nyn can heal it as The AngryDruid suggests. As for further developments at the BT I wonder if Rand and Cadsuane will be involved beside Logain and Androl.

Cadsuane is still supposed to teach all the Asha'man something. Hard to see where else she can do that. And there is a dream of Egwene about Logain stepping over something that looks like Rand's body onto a black stone (aCoS, ch 10). BS said that the podium in Taim's palace is made out of Shayol Ghul black rock so this could be related.

 

in TGS Chapter 5 Flinn apologizes to Rand and says he is not as good as Androl at making gateways.

good catch, I forgot about that. still, that was not in the RJ part of the series so I don't think we can say that this was planned from the start which is what Barid was suggesting.

[MasterAblar]

I don't see linking or the double bond being relevant in reversing the 13x13 turning. As Hyronimus said, such linking would have to be done willingly by both parties and that's hard to envision. But it would be nice if it was possible to reverse the 13x13 turning somehow. Maybe Nyn can heal it as The AngryDruid suggests.

 

I actually thought that Rand would be more likely to "heal" it than Nyneave. The 13x13 turning seems to go deeper than any wound, even the madness. It changes the very essense of a person, or rather amplifies the negative while diminishing the positive. Well Rand made people regain hope in Bandar Eban by his very presence. Almen Bunt's pain in his leg was suddenly lessened when he passed by. People just become more positive thinking near Rand.

 

As for further developments at the BT I wonder if Rand and Cadsuane will be involved beside Logain and Androl.

 

Cadsuane is still supposed to teach all the Asha'man something. Hard to see where else she can do that. And there is a dream of Egwene about Logain stepping over something that looks like Rand's body onto a black stone (aCoS, ch 10). BS said that the podium in Taim's palace is made out of Shayol Ghul black rock so this could be related.

 

Isn't Cadsuane supposed to teach the Asha'man the same thing she taught Rand: laughter and tears? If so it seems that message has already been sent to the Asha'man by Rand through Naeff. It's still Cadsuane's lesson, just indirectly.

[herid]

I don't think such an indirect lesson can count. and it's supposed to be something none of them like. Rand's message with Naeff was that the Asha'man are men, not weapons. Many of them would actually like that. Flinn for one, for sure.

[FarShainMael]

Interesting to see whitebridge become a new stageing ground, from Perrin trading his good grain with the towns folk, the refugees from the west described in the prologue heading that way to the refugees from Camyln being sent there. Any chance something ccol may be done with the whitebridge itself? could it be some kind of Ter'angreal?

 

Some time ago I wondered whether the White Bridge might be the other sa'angreal stronger than Callandor that a man can use.. I'll see if I can find the link.

 

ETA: Ah yes, here it is:

 

http://www.dragonmount.com/forums/topic/70096-a-3rd-sa-angreal/page__st__40#56

[XXX]

Aren't the bulk of the Asha'man still essentially neutral? Loyal to Taim yes, but neither natural darkfriends nor turned. He has to move slow to keep Logain's Androl's faction from growing. Things should move to a head quickly, if for no other reason that Taim and Logain are running out of book to square off in (although I continue to think the bulk of Logain's glory will come post-series).

 

Not to mention Rand via Logain has deployed a bulk of Asha'man throughout Rand'land. To hold off the Seanchan, and fight along the Blight.

 

The whole BT bugs me a bit as a plot hole by RJ to begin with. Granted Rand's time is precious. But we see him in T'A'R spying on Elayne, Egwene, etc.. We see him jumping around for his battles with various FS. Yet, he doesn't spend ANY time checking in on the BT. A BT who he entrusted to Taim, someone he barely trusted from the moment he met him. Above any of the things he has going on, making an army of channelers (the most powerful force in all of R'land) was not even worth regularly checking up on??! Even spying on??

 

With 200-300 Ashaman, he could silence any Seanchan force. Any trolloc force. Etc etc.. Why wouldn't that be like #2 on the list besides fighting the FS... Yet he takes so little personal interest in ensuring their loyalty and ability. This makes ZERO sense even to an insane Rand.

 

It would be like the President of the US taking zero interest of the development / security / deployment of our nuclear weapons... Though not talked about, I would guess every President since Truman looks very closely at the reports regarding our nuclear status/capability on a very regular basis. And would know instantly if something were wrong there... One does not implenent a program for the most powerful weapons in existence and then not keep tabs on it..

 

Rand does not want to face Taim because it makes LTT go nuts.The more insane Rand becomes the more difficult for him to stop LTT from seizing the power so it would make sense to avoid the one person which makes LTT totally lose it.