are the Aial genetically engineered ?

[elric]

a thread i started , made me take a deeper look at the Aial and there some oddities to them.

 

a. the Aial regardless of area /location /climate are bigger then the rest of the ppl in the world , about an head taller in general.

 

b. the Aial keep they size even after centuries in a desert environment ( cold area -> bigger person / hot area smaller leaner persons)

 

c. during the AoL the Aial had a collective race believe/code that EVERY AIAL follow. i dont recal any culture that had such a code that imply to every member of that cdulture and here we have an whole race spread out in the entire world among diffrent coltures.

 

d. the Aial seem to me to have enhance reflexes not only the waste Aial but ppl with Aial blood seem to learn fighting at a much exalarated phase (Rand / Aram)

 

the AoL Aial kind of remind me of Asimov robots, and we know that AoL had very advanced Genetic (Aginor feats).

making slightly improved human is VERY BASIC compare to creating human/animal races or to the gholem/fade/flying vampire thingy creation.

Aial creation may even be the base on which Aginor based his creation (pure speculation on my part here)

[MasterAblar]

a thread i started , made me take a deeper look at the Aial and there some oddities to them.

 

a. the Aial regardless of area /location /climate are bigger then the rest of the ppl in the world , about an head taller in general.

 

b. the Aial keep they size even after centuries in a desert environment ( cold area -> bigger person / hot area smaller leaner persons)

 

c. during the AoL the Aial had a collective race believe/code that EVERY AIAL follow. i dont recal any culture that had such a code that imply to every member of that cdulture and here we have an whole race spread out in the entire world among diffrent coltures.

 

d. the Aial seem to me to have enhance reflexes not only the waste Aial but ppl with Aial blood seem to learn fighting at a much exalarated phase (Rand / Aram)

 

the AoL Aial kind of remind me of Asimov robots, and we know that AoL had very advanced Genetic (Aginor feats).

making slightly improved human is VERY BASIC compare to creating human/animal races or to the gholem/fade/flying vampire thingy creation.

Aial creation may even be the base on which Aginor based his creation (pure speculation on my part here)

 

They can go through gateways, unlike every shadowspawn but the gholam.

[shortkut]

Genetically engineered does not mean construct

[Whizbang]

Could be. We'll probably never know for sure, but it also could be selective breeding, or just isolation. When the Breaking occurred, the Aiel wandered around a lot, but they were a close knit society, so probably didn't mingle with others very much, especially considering the times where everyone was trying to survive, and didn't mind killing or stealing to do so. So, the Aiel have been isolated for 3,000 years. Add in the natural selection from the waste (only the strong survive), and you end up with a race of people where only the quick, strong and intelligent survive. Sure, the rest of the world has this as well, but the waste is especially harsh.

 

 

Though, like you said, the AoL had many advanced sciences and abilities. It might just be that the Aiel were a genetic and social experiment, to see if they could produce a better human, one who would be dedicated to the idea of peace, have better reflexes and stronger bodies. They lost the dedication due to the pressures of the environment after the breaking (kill or be killed), but not the mindset of sticking together and dedicating yourself to honor and obligation, and pushing yourself to be the best you can be. They did seem to be treated as something other than a normal person (remember Rand's visions in the glass columns, when he was in the body of an Aiel when the Bore was created. He bumped into a man, and the man was very respectful and polite, treating him like something Other, like an Ogier or Nym.). Maybe it was only a result of a cultural thing to respect those dedicated to peace, but maybe it was more. Maybe Aiel are even from another world/universe, like the Ogier. Who knows, or can know?

[Hagazussa]

They can go through gateways, unlike every shadowspawn but the gholam.

 

Well technically speaking a poodle is genetically engineered though selective breeding, allot of the food on our table is genetically engineered that is a far cry from being artificially created by technomagick. I do not really see any indication that the Aiel are modified in any way other than selective breeding, their society is hard so only the strongest individuals survive to have offspring that result in a better chance of the children being survivors as well. That being said we do have that song thing their ancestors did with the Ogier and the Nym, but that is really the only really odd thing about them.

[Darksmoon]

The Aiel are a very hard people and have been fighting each other forever. The weak die in Aiel Society and thus the weak genes die. The strong survive and thus strong genes continue on. I think this has allowed them to be really strong and they are trained to be warriors at a young age.

[Grimmauld]

As some of the replies have posited natural selection versus genetic engineering;

 

a) Why would natural selection lead to fair haired people in the desert?

 

b) Why would Aram retain the ability to pick up weapon usage so easily? His offshoot of the Aiel never used weaponry. Now I know that he is only one example and could merely be an outlier.

[Hagazussa]

a) Why would natural selection lead to fair haired people in the desert?

 

This is a good point, or rather why would they have fair skin. Basically the Aiel are Celts in the desert so if it was all natural selection then you would think that those with darker colorations would have a greater chance of surviving and passing on their genes which would lead to them becoming darker in time, that being said standards of beauty could contradict this if fair Aiel have easier to find a mate than darker ones then that would mean fair genes would be more common, remember the Aiel have multiple wives so the most desirable men will get to breed but the less desirable ones will not be able to find a mate even if they survive.

[Whizbang]

Also, if the entire genetic pool was fair, there is nothing to select naturally. Only genetic mutation would introduce darker skin, and 3,000 years is not enough to do that. 3,000 years may not even be enough to breed out the fairness even if a small percentage of the population has darker skin.

[rand4747]

as whizbang said, 3000 years is not long enough to bring through mutations. Now if there was mixed races then the darker might do better. Although its not so much to do with heat but amount of sunlight, people nearer the poles get less sunlight so need fairer skin to get enough.

 

Also about cold climates it tends to favour stocky people with short limbs. couse limbs are a big source of lost heat. People of warmer often thinner, height depends alot on whether they need to run fast or not I think. So where they hunt they become taller. Abundancy of food matters too though.

[Hagazussa]

Also, if the entire genetic pool was fair, there is nothing to select naturally. Only genetic mutation would introduce darker skin, and 3,000 years is not enough to do that. 3,000 years may not even be enough to breed out the fairness even if a small percentage of the population has darker skin.

 

This is a very good point and as far as I know all the Aiel was fair.

 

height depends alot on whether they need to run fast or not I think. So where they hunt they become taller. Abundancy of food matters too though.

 

Quality of food is more important here than whatever or not you need to run. However if the Aiel are Celts as in of Germanic stock then height is a trait of that ancestry and if the Aiel have access to enough food there is no reason why they would not keep growing tall.

[elric]

we know that the Aial ideal of beuty is not limited to beeing fair.

there a black haird wise that keep drowing attention to her 'exotic' hair -> it clear from her scene that black hair isnt shined upon.

 

i alway envision the Aial more as Nordic then Germanic or celt.

the Aial not only tall but tall and Massive.

they are portraied both Tall and WIDE. wider then Perrin who is a BIG/STRONG man in Randland standards

[michellem]

b. the Aial keep they size even after centuries in a desert environment ( cold area -> bigger person / hot area smaller leaner persons)

 

 

I'm.... Not really sure what you base this on. If you compare the inuit-people (who are on average about 5'5") with i.e. countries in Africa, (where the average height is above 6'0").... Yeah I don't get your logic here at all.

[michellem]

And by the fact that we see more reddish hair than true blonde hair, I'd say the Aiel have more of a Celtic look than Scandinavian (red is not a very common sight naturally here)

[Suttree]

And by the fact that we see more reddish hair than true blonde hair, I'd say the Aiel have more of a Celtic look than Scandinavian (red is not a very common sight naturally here)

RJ said Celtic...

[michellem]

That's what I thought :) I was mainly responding to elric

[kght22]

we know that the Aial ideal of beuty is not limited to beeing fair.

there a black haird wise that keep drowing attention to her 'exotic' hair -> it clear from her scene that black hair isnt shined upon.

 

i alway envision the Aial more as Nordic then Germanic or celt.

the Aial not only tall but tall and Massive.

they are portraied both Tall and WIDE. wider then Perrin who is a BIG/STRONG man in Randland standards

i am guessing that english is not your first language, and that in some language aiel is spelled aial. this is an english forum, and for some reason (probably because i am subconsciously a typical retarded xenophobic american) your misspelling of the word aiel bugs me. it doesn't bug me because you did it in one post, it annoys me because you read other posts and still seem to insist that your spelling of the word is correct. it is not. it is spelled aiel, not aial. i am sorry for this post, but i shall post it none the less.

[Shig]

b) Why would Aram retain the ability to pick up weapon usage so easily? His offshoot of the Aiel never used weaponry. Now I know that he is only one example and could merely be an outlier.

 

Aram threw himself whole heartedly into learning the sword, the idea of vengeance and such pushing him forwards. Aram appears to have learnt nothing else, other than to obsess on people in a crazy and pretty creepy fashion. He had nothing but training and following perrin around to do, so its to be expected that after several months/ 1-2 years he'd develop some serious skills. Another point is that he was training with a blademaster[tam] meaning he'd likely be better taught than an average soldier, as tam has the skills, and from what we know of his personality he'd make an excellent trainer( solid, dedicated, hard working etc etc [very similar to lan, another awesome teacher])

 

Finally, we don't know whether aram actually has any aiel blood. We know that tinkers will accept people if theyre willing to embrace and follow the way of the leaf, so after 3000 years, its likely that the travelling people are more non-aiel than aiel.

[elric]

Misheru:

"

Bergmann's rule is an ecogeographic principle that states that within a broadly distributed taxonomic clade, populations and species of larger size are found in colder environments, and species of smaller size are found in warmer regions. Although originally formulated in terms of species within a genus, it has often been recast in terms of populations within a species. It is also often cast in terms of latitude. The rule is named after a nineteenth-century German biologist, Christian Bergmann, who was among the first to describe the pattern in 1847 (but see ^[1]). Bergmann's rule is most often applied to mammals and birds which are endotherms, but some researchers have also found evidence for the rule in studies of ectothermic species.^[2][3] While Bergmann's rule appears to hold true for most mammals and birds, there are exceptions.^[4][5][6]

There seems to be a tendency for larger-bodied animals to conform more closely than smaller-bodied animals, at least up to certain latitudes, perhaps reflecting a reduced ability to avoid stressful environments by burrowing or other means.^[7] In addition to being a general pattern across space, Bergmann’s rule has been reported in populations over historical and evolutionary time when exposed to varying thermal regimes.^[8][9][10] Note that Bergmann's rule describes a tendency of body mass variation within groups; it does not suggest that large-bodied animals do not occur in warm climates.

"

 

Sut :

i had'nt known about this RJ quote. i assume nordic due to their size (and my fondness toward Vikings) thank you for providing this quote. i stand corrected :)

 

Testy:

you are correct, english is not my native language , in my langueage there very limited pronounce letters -> Hello is written like -> hllo for example, so yes i admit i have problem in writing names i really dont mind beeing corrected, but since i post here out of fun and not as a part of a chore i dont intend to cherck the spelling of every word i write it take the fun out.

if the way i misspell a name bug u , tell me and i will try to pay attention to it and to avoid the misspell but i cant promise i rem it every time.

 

Shig

Aram is the mahady grandson , so the chances that he is a pure blood Aiel is higher.

u raise good points and i dont argue them, but since we have only 2 examples about ppl with Aial blood (or possebility to) learning to fight in mid life...:)

 

btw one of the MAIN points that made me realy think the Aiel are engineered is the point "C"

the way all the AoL Aiel had the same code regardless of colture/location... and entire race who all its members are destined for the same role... seem a bit odd to me.

[FarShainMael]

a) Why would natural selection lead to fair haired people in the desert?

 

This is a good point, or rather why would they have fair skin. Basically the Aiel are Celts in the desert so if it was all natural selection then you would think that those with darker colorations would have a greater chance of surviving and passing on their genes which would lead to them becoming darker in time,

 

I don't think 3000 years is long enough for there to be any perceptible change of this nature.

 

Here in the UK it is apparent that people are getting a bit taller, and this is happening over centuries rather than millenia; but changes in pigmentation are rather more complex, I think.

 

http://medieval-castles.org/index.php/how_tall_were_people_during_the_middle_a

[Shig]

A slightly less...pleasant...idea might be that in the age before the AoL, the Aiel were a race who were enslaved outside of their home country/nation. When the Wheel of time ticked over to the next, Utopian age, instead of being considered slaves, they were a race of servants who took their position as an honor and what not.

 

I consider this a major contender for the most viable option due to the nature of the aiel during the AoL and the aiel we know today. In both cases, for the most part Aiel only married and/or had children with other aiel. Rand's ancestor that he 'experienced' in Rhuidean was marrying another Aiel, and i cant really imagine a servant to an Aes Sedai marrying a normal citizen during the AoL, therefore limiting the mixing of genetics, meaning that all aiel look alike because they share the same very very distant ancestors.

 

Same thing goes for the aiel today, they marry and have children within Aiel society, and so there's no real mixing of genes. We could use the people of the two rivers(specifically Emond's Field) as an example of a similar occurrence. Aside from Rand, the vast majority of two rivers people share the physical characteristics of having dark brownish hair and dark eyes, as people from emonds field will often marry a person from within their village, and occasionally from other villages within the two rivers district.

[Benganza]

b. the Aial keep they size even after centuries in a desert environment ( cold area -> bigger person / hot area smaller leaner persons)

 

 

I'm.... Not really sure what you base this on. If you compare the inuit-people (who are on average about 5'5") with i.e. countries in Africa, (where the average height is above 6'0").... Yeah I don't get your logic here at all.

The Inuit are in evolutionary time, relative newcomers to the Arctic regions

I don't think 3000 years is long enough for there to be any perceptible change of this nature.

 

Here in the UK it is apparent that people are getting a bit taller, and this is happening over centuries rather than millenia; but changes in pigmentation are rather more complex, I think.

 

http://medieval-cast...ng_the_middle_a

The cause of the increase in average height isn't so much a product of recent genetic mutation as it is a result of abundant nutrition, especially meat consumption.

[Randommer]

And by the fact that we see more reddish hair than true blonde hair, I'd say the Aiel have more of a Celtic look than Scandinavian (red is not a very common sight naturally here)

Red hair isn't very common in places like Ireland or Scotland either; it's just pretty rare everywhere (though the archaeology nerd in me must point out that 'Celtic' is a broad term for related cultures and languages that existed in Western and Central Europe rather than an actual people). The fact that the Aiel have a rare trait in such abundance, as well as their height, points to them having a very geographically or socially isolated AoL heritage. RJ was aware of this too, since he never mentions the Tuatha'an having more red or fair hair than average or being very tall, presumably due to more mixing with other peoples.

 

The other weird thing about that is that the Aiel were such a closed and homogenous group in the utopian AoL, a time when race didn't seem to matter. They're the only seperate cultural/racial group we know of from the time, and their strictness about their inherited duties to the Aes Sedai seems very odd in a time that valued freedom of choice, etc. Nobody else seemed to be born into a job like that. Definitely something odd there, imo.

 

As to the Aiel not evolving to desert conditions, 3000 years actually would be enough time for pigment changes to at least begin, going by paleontological and genetic evidence of human settlement in different climates. They don't fully understand how pigment changes occur, beyond 'fast and easily'; they've found evidence in mice that colouration chemicals might be passed on very readily, suggesting that how tanned a human mother is at time of gestation might influence the baby's melanin production, which would certainly explain a lot for human evolution. Or it could be that colouration is just such a naturally varied thing that different environments produce changes to the average of a population surprisingly quickly. But anyway, this is all fairly new thinking and the odds of RJ knowing about it at the time are slim, so it's probably irrelevant lol.

[Durinax]

on d the enhanced reflexes and such are a result of the lack of armour and living in such a dangerous place. It also has a lot to do with their fighting style which utilizes the whole body enhancing their ability to react to virtually any threat

[Lisa Campbell]

As to the Aiel not evolving to desert conditions, 3000 years actually would be enough time for pigment changes to at least begin, going by paleontological and genetic evidence of human settlement in different climates. They don't fully understand how pigment changes occur, beyond 'fast and easily'; they've found evidence in mice that colouration chemicals might be passed on very readily, suggesting that how tanned a human mother is at time of gestation might influence the baby's melanin production, which would certainly explain a lot for human evolution. Or it could be that colouration is just such a naturally varied thing that different environments produce changes to the average of a population surprisingly quickly. But anyway, this is all fairly new thinking and the odds of RJ knowing about it at the time are slim, so it's probably irrelevant lol.

 

I think the Aiel have started pigment changes, their hands and faces are described as tanned not sun-burnt so their fair skin that is exposed, has adapted over time. The rest of their bodies are continuously covered up.

 

A real life example of this would be say, in their own countries, the comparison between an Egyptian's skin, which is generally fairly tanned because they don't cover up as much as say some Lebanese people who do cover up and although they have dark hair (which by the way makes their skin look darker because body hair does not get bleached by the sun) they have remarkably fair skin.

 

We all know about slip slop slap ra ra ra. It is proven that protecting your skin stops it from tanning, I don't know why people think it's weird that the Aiel are still fair living 3000 years in the desert when their skin hardly ever sees the sun. When Aviendha returned from the Rings in Ruidean naked, by the time she reached the tents she was sunburnt. Obviously the skin that is normally covered up has not evolved, and it is a far greater percentage of their bodies than what is exposed regularly.

 

@ elric: Did Bergmaan ever go to Africa? Elephants, Giraffes, Rhinoceros, Hippopotamus, Alligator, Wildebeast, big cats and Hyenas to name those that come to mind. All large animals. Also I think you said that his "rule" from the 1800's only indicated that he noted tendencies, not absolutes?

 

Edited so I could go back and check who posted about Bergmaan (elric)