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Most infuriating moment/topic in the books


Alric
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You haven't really explained why my analogy doesn't work.

 

Simply because the Damane aren't rabid, rabid animals can't be trained.

 

I think you might be holding rather too tightly to that analogy. Damane aren't treated like criminals, they are treated like animals - kept in kennels, taken for walks, given treats if they're good.

 

If murderers represented the same weapon as the Damane and could be controlled similarly they'd be kept in kennels too. The only reason Damane aren't executed is because they can be controlled and their power used at the behest of the Throne.

 

But they have touched the Source - by choice or not - and she hasn't, and chooses not to. Not hypocritical, no matter how warped. She doesn't advocate one thing and do another.

 

She said she chooses not to learn to channel, but this isn't entirely true she learned the weaves and everything else a Sul'dam would learn about handling the One Power all she hasn't done is learn to embrace for herself, but she has a Damane surrogate for that; kind of like ordering someone killed versus doing the deed yourself.

 

There is a point i'd like to clarify about the use of the A'dam. In TGH Egwene's Sul'dam coerces her into channeling at her direction via threats and punishments, later we learn that the A'dam is a forced link with the Sul'dam having absolute control, then in KOD we have Tuon directly weaving the flows herself; what is the nature of this link? i assume it follows the basic mechanics of linking but with the Sul'dam in control.

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The second part that irritates me also includes Elayne, and that is her handling of Perrin after she gets the crown, and the way she insults him after he saves a portion of her nation from White Cloaks, and Trollocs.
The way she insults him after he fends off Trollocs and Whitecloaks and then tries to steal a part of her kingdom for himself, raises his own banner, his own army, refuses entrance to her tax men... Yeah, that Elayne is so unreasonable.

 

Well, considering that part of the kingdom would not even BE there if not for him... and that the only reason any taxmen are sent is that he restored the province... I can see how insulting him is a bad thing. Saying 'yo Perrin you messed things up. Thanks for fixing things but I really can't let others make up lords just like that...'

 

She pretty much did that save for the thanking part, of course, and we know how hard it was for her to thank Mat, so maybe she meant it like this.

So that gives him the right to steal it? "Well, you wouldn't have it if not for me, so I'm justified in taking it from you." Why would Elayne thank him for stealing a part of her kingdom from her? Even aside from how damaging it would be to her negotiations with him to give him an advantage like that early on. On no level does it make sense for her to open by thanking him.

 

He didn't take it from her, she (by she I mean the royalty of Andor) abandoned it. He brought it back to her. Lets be honest, just about anyone would have refused that tax collector. We left you to yourself, let you be ravaged by Trollocs and White Cloaks, now we want money, so give it here...She should have thanked him, rewarded him for his courage, and leadership. Also she could have crushed any future attempts of the rise of Mantherene about bringing that banner under the guidance and leadership of Andor. Her problem is that she is a puffed up spoiled brat who needs another ten to fifteen years as a novice...

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The second part that irritates me also includes Elayne, and that is her handling of Perrin after she gets the crown, and the way she insults him after he saves a portion of her nation from White Cloaks, and Trollocs.
The way she insults him after he fends off Trollocs and Whitecloaks and then tries to steal a part of her kingdom for himself, raises his own banner, his own army, refuses entrance to her tax men... Yeah, that Elayne is so unreasonable.

 

Well, considering that part of the kingdom would not even BE there if not for him... and that the only reason any taxmen are sent is that he restored the province... I can see how insulting him is a bad thing. Saying 'yo Perrin you messed things up. Thanks for fixing things but I really can't let others make up lords just like that...'

 

She pretty much did that save for the thanking part, of course, and we know how hard it was for her to thank Mat, so maybe she meant it like this.

So that gives him the right to steal it? "Well, you wouldn't have it if not for me, so I'm justified in taking it from you." Why would Elayne thank him for stealing a part of her kingdom from her? Even aside from how damaging it would be to her negotiations with him to give him an advantage like that early on. On no level does it make sense for her to open by thanking him.

 

 

I consider it a better analogy to look at a bag. Elayne/Andor lost a bag, but didn't care too much. At some point Perrin saw some guys try to take off with the bag, and said 'hey guys give that bag back'. They didn't, He had to fight for it, so then people assumed it must've been his bag, and some people even said 'hey guys that's Perrins bag'. Then he went to Elayne who, rather than assuming he came to bring the bag back, assumed he wanted to steal the bag. Despite coming into her capital in peace.

 

The bag, of course, being the Two Rivers.

 

And yes, the analogy is imperfect, but insulting and halfheartedly threatening people with execution over finding your lost bag and not running to you screaming 'take it back!' is a bit ungrateful.

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The Two Rivers was Andoran in name only, Elayne's predecessors had abandoned it long ago in favour of the miners income. Even Morgase and co found it hard to believe that Rand was a "loyal" citizen when he first met them, because it really hasnt ever been a major part of Andor and the crown doesnt overly care about it.

 

Elayne was on a massive power rush because Rand gave her Cairhien and was afraid of a rival nearby who would also have the patrionage of the dragon reborn yet actually gained his position because the people want him.

 

The funny thing is, Andor probably couldnt take on the Two Rivers if it tried because they would have needed to cross a river to get there and most nobles in Andor would be reluctant to fight a pointless war, especially one which has ties to two other Kingdoms and the most powerful man alive...

 

In general I like Elayne as she is usually funny but she is basically what is wrong with the nobility in Randland, Morgase seemed a far better ruler pre-Gaebrel, but that might have been due to age and experience.

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It should also be noted that the Two Rivers was assaulted by a force that pretty much appeared out of thin air, and most of the world were entirely unaware it was being attacked. Had, say, Arad Domain started to invade the Two Rivers, the Andoran forces would have been there to defend it. Even with just the Trollocs, the Andoran forces most likely would have arrived eventually, if too late. It wasn't apathy that caused Andoran inaction towards the Two Rivers, it was ignorance.

 

And, as was pointed out, Elayne had absolutely no intention of actually hanging Perrin. But she wanted to make Perrin ask for the Two Rivers instead of demand that it was already his, which would mean that she was letting go of a part of Andor. Keep in mind, Elayne's political opponents were already mad about the Seafinders and Black Tower land, Andor has been made on not letting go of land.

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The Two Rivers was Andoran in name only, Elayne's predecessors had abandoned it long ago in favour of the miners income. Even Morgase and co found it hard to believe that Rand was a "loyal" citizen when he first met them, because it really hasnt ever been a major part of Andor and the crown doesnt overly care about it.

 

Eh. I think about it like tribal areas of Pakistan, or like the island Taiwan. The central government of Pakistan/China doesn't really have any control over them, and they know they can't actually collect taxes or enforce laws there, but if they tried to declare independence, or if any other country tried to claim them, they would go to war.

 

It's a matter of national pride; nations do not give up land they have a claim to, even if they have very little de facto control over that area, and anyone who actually challanges the nation's sovergenty there will get put down hard. Remember Andor is probably one of the the strongest nations in Randland today.

 

It's not just Elayne, either; the shock of someone raising the flag of Marathorn was enough to help her mother to *break free of compulsion*. This is a big deal. It's not just "Elayne being a drama queen." If anything, she is a *lot* more understanding on the subject of the Two Rivers then Morgase ever would have been.

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I kind of wish Perrin would have pushed the issue a bit and stood up to Elayne. I don't understand why he came to her acting as the inferior. When she asked why she "shouldn't just have him executed" I was thinking "bitch please, I'd like to see you try". And I don't even like Perrin or Faile that much. Yes, she might claim the Two Rivers, but he defended it and the people there saw him as their leader. Given their stubborn nature, Perrin's army, and Elayne's weak hold over her own kingdom, Perrin could have demanded much more, perhaps even raised Manetheren.

 

Mat and the Band would have sided with him, and he had channelers, Aiel and the Whitecloaks.

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I kind of wish Perrin would have pushed the issue a bit and stood up to Elayne. I don't understand why he came to her acting as the inferior. When she asked why she "shouldn't just have him executed" I was thinking "bitch please, I'd like to see you try". And I don't even like Perrin or Faile that much. Yes, she might claim the Two Rivers, but he defended it and the people there saw him as their leader. Given their stubborn nature, Perrin's army, and Elayne's weak hold over her own kingdom, Perrin could have demanded much more, perhaps even raised Manetheren.

 

Mat and the Band would have sided with him, and he had channelers, Aiel and the Whitecloaks.

I wouldn't necessarily say the band would side with perrin, a lot of stock has been put into mat always keeping his word, so he likely wouldn't abandon his contract (thus his word).

WC's are led by Galad, who would have sided with the crown.

Aiel, unknown. With the close relationship between Elayne and Avi, there is a very good chance they would simply abstain

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I think their's a difference between seeing the weaves while linked to a damane and seeing the weaves on their own (and the turning point is likely around the time they see weaves on their own). The sul'dam held be the a'dam in Andor were able to see the weaves without being linked.

 

It's an imperfect example but when Nyn is linked to Moggy by the a'dam she can wield and see Moggys flows despite not normally being able to see weaves unless she's angry.

 

I'm sure their's a bit in GH when they go to the BA storeroom when Eg attaches a ball of light to the wall, Elayne sees it and copies, Eg then learns from Elayne and Nyn says something along the lines of "curse this block, I can't see". The thing I'm not sure of is whether their's textural evidence that when holding Moggy there were periods of time when she wasn't angry enough to channel (although that's certainly the inference I made) - I'll check text tonight.

 

If this is true then the fact that Tuon saw the weave disintegrate doesn't necessariy mean she can channel yet, as she was linked at the time.

But Nynaeve can also channel and could be held by an a'dam, so the fact that she can't see weaves while not being able to see the source only adds to the idea that being able to see weaves is likely a sign of being able to channel.

A point about Tuon's ability as a Sul'dam, from reading the scene again she is extremely talented and versatile with the A'dam she uses it to - shield and bind Joline and Edesina, then releases the shield on Joline and allows her to embrace the source, then denies her the ability to embrace and then FORCES her to embrace without her trying to. Mat then intercedes and Tuon tries to bind him with air(I think) and she is startled and says " the weave just evaporated"(KOD p244) so she actually sees the weave evaporate, I think this is proof of how far along she is and that the A'dam could hold her.
Knowing that the weave has evaporated does not mean that she saw it evaporate.

No, but there is little way for her to have known it does otherwise. Remember, if Tuon was unable to see the weaves, she would only know that it didn't work--perhaps it had no effect, perhaps the weaves were made stationary, perhaps the weaves simply went through him. But she specifically describes how the weaves unravel upon touching him--she can definitely see them, at least while connected.

 

 

"The ability to see weaves" is a large factor in determining whether or not you can be held by the a'dam, and i'm pretty sure sul'dam can only ever see weaves when connected--Elayne's sul'dam refuse to see weaves at all. I'm thinking that Tuon has already crossed the point where she can be held by the a'dam.

 

No, the bit I was thinking of was later when Eg demonstrates travelling. You're right though, Nyn can channel so the fact that she can't see weaves when not channeling just menas the same for the others as well. Having said that, every AS, WO and WF we know of were aware of the channeling without necessarily embracing the source. I assume that this is an extention of their ability to feel 'kinship' for other woman who can channel as opposed to the ability to see the weaves, so not linked to embracing the source. I can't find any evidence as to whether or not the sul'dam collared can sense this, as I'm still reading through this section of Crossroads. I think at best the Cleansing is inconclusive either way, as it Tuon seeing the weave evaporate as she was linked at the time.

 

You haven't really explained why my analogy doesn't work.

 

Simply because the Damane aren't rabid, rabid animals can't be trained.

 

I think you might be holding rather too tightly to that analogy. Damane aren't treated like criminals, they are treated like animals - kept in kennels, taken for walks, given treats if they're good.

 

If murderers represented the same weapon as the Damane and could be controlled similarly they'd be kept in kennels too. The only reason Damane aren't executed is because they can be controlled and their power used at the behest of the Throne.

 

But they have touched the Source - by choice or not - and she hasn't, and chooses not to. Not hypocritical, no matter how warped. She doesn't advocate one thing and do another.

 

She said she chooses not to learn to channel, but this isn't entirely true she learned the weaves and everything else a Sul'dam would learn about handling the One Power all she hasn't done is learn to embrace for herself, but she has a Damane surrogate for that; kind of like ordering someone killed versus doing the deed yourself.

 

There is a point i'd like to clarify about the use of the A'dam. In TGH Egwene's Sul'dam coerces her into channeling at her direction via threats and punishments, later we learn that the A'dam is a forced link with the Sul'dam having absolute control, then in KOD we have Tuon directly weaving the flows herself; what is the nature of this link? i assume it follows the basic mechanics of linking but with the Sul'dam in control.

 

I don't think we know any more than that it's a corrupted circle - the sul'dam are in control and can force the damane to join the circle, embrace the source and everything else and it's this part that is corrupted. It gets interesting because we know that the sul'dam are not embracing the source themselves - if they did the collar would hold them, and testing with the collar is compulsory, even for sul'dam, until after the recongnised age for sparking. The sul'dam control the weaves, so must be able to 'sense' them when linked.

 

Incidently, if Tuon isn't exempt from the testing, I can't make up my mind either way - on the one hand nobles aren't exempt, on the other it was unusual for her to test to being sul'dam. If she is tested, then that's the strongest evidence that she can't yet channel as she's not been held so far by the collar. If she isn't tested than it doesn'rt show anything one way or another - and she hasn't been tested in the last few months, but in that time she's spent little time 'complete'.

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You haven't really explained why my analogy doesn't work.

 

Simply because the Damane aren't rabid, rabid animals can't be trained.

You're being overly literal. My point was that it is not hypocritical to draw a distinction between a dangerous animal and a useful one - you are claiming that calling one animal dangerous and using another makes one a hypocrite.

 

He didn't take it from her, she (by she I mean the royalty of Andor) abandoned it. He brought it back to her. Lets be honest, just about anyone would have refused that tax collector. We left you to yourself, let you be ravaged by Trollocs and White Cloaks, now we want money, so give it here...She should have thanked him, rewarded him for his courage, and leadership. Also she could have crushed any future attempts of the rise of Mantherene about bringing that banner under the guidance and leadership of Andor. Her problem is that she is a puffed up spoiled brat who needs another ten to fifteen years as a novice...

Andor didn't leave the TR to be attacked, they were unable to intervene, because they didn't know. Further, the TR is hard to get to without going through Andor - they have received hundreds of years of protection, and customs free trade, lived tax free - they've benefited a lot through being an autonomous and forgotten province. Her actions were wholly justified under the circumstances. She had absolutely no reason to grovel to Perrin - he was rewarded for the good he did, but he did bad as well and that shouldn't be forgotten just because people happen to like Perrin (or dislike Elayne).

 

I consider it a better analogy to look at a bag. Elayne/Andor lost a bag, but didn't care too much. At some point Perrin saw some guys try to take off with the bag, and said 'hey guys give that bag back'. They didn't, He had to fight for it, so then people assumed it must've been his bag, and some people even said 'hey guys that's Perrins bag'. Then he went to Elayne who, rather than assuming he came to bring the bag back, assumed he wanted to steal the bag. Despite coming into her capital in peace.

 

The bag, of course, being the Two Rivers.

 

And yes, the analogy is imperfect, but insulting and halfheartedly threatening people with execution over finding your lost bag and not running to you screaming 'take it back!' is a bit ungrateful.

And making someone a Lord of said bag (to stretch an analogy way past breaking point) is ungrateful? Perrin to justifiable action to protect people, which is good, but then raised the flag of Manetheren and his men refused her men entrance to her land - that's not something she should be grateful for. She rewarded him as he deserved, but didn't give away more than she needed to, which is what you would be having her do - why is it a good idea to begin negotiations by essentially admitting you're in their debt and they can ask for whatever they want? By taking the stance she did, she was able to come to a reasonable solution. Perrin is a lord, but an Andoran lord, not ruler of Manetheren or an independent TR.

 

The funny thing is, Andor probably couldnt take on the Two Rivers if it tried because they would have needed to cross a river to get there and most nobles in Andor would be reluctant to fight a pointless war, especially one which has ties to two other Kingdoms and the most powerful man alive...

Yes, I'm sure if the Queen decided to march to war against the TR, I'm sure her plans would be thwarted by a river. Given that she has the OP, she could put an army in Emond's Field in a day - bypassing the river, ignoring the distance between Caemlyn and the TR. Maybe not a great idea, but if she decided to take on the TR, she would be hard pushed to lose.
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I kind of wish Perrin would have pushed the issue a bit and stood up to Elayne. I don't understand why he came to her acting as the inferior. When she asked why she "shouldn't just have him executed" I was thinking "bitch please, I'd like to see you try". And I don't even like Perrin or Faile that much. Yes, she might claim the Two Rivers, but he defended it and the people there saw him as their leader. Given their stubborn nature, Perrin's army, and Elayne's weak hold over her own kingdom, Perrin could have demanded much more, perhaps even raised Manetheren.

 

Mat and the Band would have sided with him, and he had channelers, Aiel and the Whitecloaks.

 

Again, it was a bargaining ploy as many people have mentioned. There was no intention of actually doing it. Not sure why you would think Elayne has a "weak hold" over her kingdom however. She gained all the votes from the high seats and in doing so has their armies of which Andor can field the most ment of any nation in Randland.

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I kind of wish Perrin would have pushed the issue a bit and stood up to Elayne. I don't understand why he came to her acting as the inferior. When she asked why she "shouldn't just have him executed" I was thinking "bitch please, I'd like to see you try". And I don't even like Perrin or Faile that much. Yes, she might claim the Two Rivers, but he defended it and the people there saw him as their leader. Given their stubborn nature, Perrin's army, and Elayne's weak hold over her own kingdom, Perrin could have demanded much more, perhaps even raised Manetheren.

 

Mat and the Band would have sided with him, and he had channelers, Aiel and the Whitecloaks.

 

Again, it was a bargaining ploy as many people have mentioned. There was no intention of actually doing it. Not sure why you would think Elayne has a "weak hold" over her kingdom however. She gained all the votes from the high seats and in doing so has their armies of which Andor can field the most ment of any nation in Randland.

 

A bargaining ploy because she knew Perrin would be amenable to being threatened with execution if he felt he didn't follow some rule of somebody's somewhere. She should be thankful for Perrin's nature, because against anybody else this could have been a disastrous method of "bargaining"

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I kind of wish Perrin would have pushed the issue a bit and stood up to Elayne. I don't understand why he came to her acting as the inferior. When she asked why she "shouldn't just have him executed" I was thinking "bitch please, I'd like to see you try". And I don't even like Perrin or Faile that much. Yes, she might claim the Two Rivers, but he defended it and the people there saw him as their leader. Given their stubborn nature, Perrin's army, and Elayne's weak hold over her own kingdom, Perrin could have demanded much more, perhaps even raised Manetheren.

 

Mat and the Band would have sided with him, and he had channelers, Aiel and the Whitecloaks.

 

Again, it was a bargaining ploy as many people have mentioned. There was no intention of actually doing it. Not sure why you would think Elayne has a "weak hold" over her kingdom however. She gained all the votes from the high seats and in doing so has their armies of which Andor can field the most ment of any nation in Randland.

 

A bargaining ploy because she knew Perrin would be amenable to being threatened with execution if he felt he didn't follow some rule of somebody's somewhere. She should be thankful for Perrin's nature, because against anybody else this could have been a disastrous method of "bargaining"

 

Sigh. Just reread the section. The Two Rivers is part of Andor and it is pretty clear how and why things play out as they did. All these hysterics about this and yet she handled it in a very astute way. The negativity really comes down to character bias and nothing more.

Edited by Suttree
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He didn't take it from her, she (by she I mean the royalty of Andor) abandoned it. He brought it back to her. Lets be honest, just about anyone would have refused that tax collector. We left you to yourself, let you be ravaged by Trollocs and White Cloaks, now we want money, so give it here...She should have thanked him, rewarded him for his courage, and leadership. Also she could have crushed any future attempts of the rise of Mantherene about bringing that banner under the guidance and leadership of Andor. Her problem is that she is a puffed up spoiled brat who needs another ten to fifteen years as a novice...

Andor didn't leave the TR to be attacked, they were unable to intervene, because they didn't know. Further, the TR is hard to get to without going through Andor - they have received hundreds of years of protection, and customs free trade, lived tax free - they've benefited a lot through being an autonomous and forgotten province. Her actions were wholly justified under the circumstances. She had absolutely no reason to grovel to Perrin - he was rewarded for the good he did, but he did bad as well and that shouldn't be forgotten just because people happen to like Perrin (or dislike Elayne).

 

I understand that under the circumstances it was impossible for Andor to help the Two Rivers area. But the fact is that the Two Rivers was left to fend for themselves and Perrin took care of business. Now I will admit that I like Perrin much better than I like Elayne (him being one of my favorites, and her being one of my less liked) and that plays a part in my irritation. Maybe it is most of why I do not like that scene, Perrin seemed overly passive and Elayne a bit aggressive about it. And whether or not her actions are justified does not mean the whole situation can not be irritating. No one said being upset by a scene in a book was logical...

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There was some lead up to Elayne's behavior, though. Elayne is constantly annoyed with the TR folk not feeling as if they were Andorans. In the beginning of "Lord of Chaos", Elayne is talking to Min about going to Caemlyn. At some point Min says something like "the queen's writ is pretty thin out there", and Elayne has an inner monologue about how Min doesn't even feel like she's Andoran, and Elayne gets all uppity about it.

 

..."Nynaeve still can't decide whether I'm a friend or somebody she has to browbeat into doing what she think's right. And she spends more time remembering I'm her Queen's daughter than I do. I think she holds it against me sometimes. You never do that."

 

"Maybe I'm not so impressed." Min wore a grin, but on the other she sounded serious. "I was born in the Mountains of Mist, Elayne, at the mines. Your mother's writ runs pretty thin that far west." The smile vanished from her face. "I'm sorry, Elayne."

 

Stiffling a flash of indignation - Min was every bit as much a subject of the Lion Throne as Nynaeve! -...

 

And this isn't the first or the last time she takes issue with claims that the TR area is not part of Andor. Elayne clearly has strong oppinions on the lines of the map. RJ has been setting up her reaction to Perrin's lordship since the beginning of the series. If she had acted any different, it would not have been believeable. That's not to say I agree with her reaction (I too was shocked and upset when I read it), but it is entirely within character.

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^I've always found this passage pretty weird. It's the only time Elayne refers to Nynaeve (or Egwene) as a subject of the Andoran crown. She knows Aes Sedai and Accepted are considered subjects of the White Tower, not their countries of origin. Besides, not once Nynaeve has said anything about Elayne being her Queen's daughter since she never accepted Morgase as her Queen.

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I kind of wish Perrin would have pushed the issue a bit and stood up to Elayne. I don't understand why he came to her acting as the inferior. When she asked why she "shouldn't just have him executed" I was thinking "bitch please, I'd like to see you try". And I don't even like Perrin or Faile that much. Yes, she might claim the Two Rivers, but he defended it and the people there saw him as their leader. Given their stubborn nature, Perrin's army, and Elayne's weak hold over her own kingdom, Perrin could have demanded much more, perhaps even raised Manetheren.

 

Mat and the Band would have sided with him, and he had channelers, Aiel and the Whitecloaks.

 

Again, it was a bargaining ploy as many people have mentioned. There was no intention of actually doing it. Not sure why you would think Elayne has a "weak hold" over her kingdom however. She gained all the votes from the high seats and in doing so has their armies of which Andor can field the most ment of any nation in Randland.

 

A bargaining ploy because she knew Perrin would be amenable to being threatened with execution if he felt he didn't follow some rule of somebody's somewhere. She should be thankful for Perrin's nature, because against anybody else this could have been a disastrous method of "bargaining"

 

Sigh. Just reread the section. The Two Rivers is part of Andor and it is pretty clear how and why things play out as they did. All these hysterics about this and yet she handled it in a very astute way. The negativity really comes down to character bias and nothing more.

 

Not really, I like Elayne overall but I just think it was a stupid way to negotiate, threatening a Taveren is its own breed of stupid, threatening someone who saved her mother is all kinds of ungreatful, and threatening someone who stopped the trollocs from being able to invade Andor from a "protected" side is just flat out rediculous.

 

In general she has a reasonably good head except when she seems to think she has to play the great game. the sooner that Aes Sedai nonsense is stamped out the better.

Edited by Morden
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Yes, I'm sure if the Queen decided to march to war against the TR, I'm sure her plans would be thwarted by a river. Given that she has the OP, she could put an army in Emond's Field in a day - bypassing the river, ignoring the distance between Caemlyn and the TR. Maybe not a great idea, but if she decided to take on the TR, she would be hard pushed to lose.

 

I disagree, but then again not like the Two Rivers doesnt have experience fighting for its life, something Andor does not, and quite frankly Andoran half trained boys are not up to the standards of trollocs.

 

The borderlands are the only nations which have real soldiers on the whole, the rest rely on whats essentially part time soldiers, farmboys and retired veterans.

 

And I would be surprised if anyone other than Elayne would be willing to open the gateways, which she couldnt do as she's pregnant, the rest would not get involved in such a petty war, especially not before it got back to Rand who would probably dump 50k troops there to make them stop and actually talk...

 

Thats assuming Taim didnt loan The Two Rivers a few hundred Asha'man which is something he would do without a moments thought it if meant weakening Andor, and he would hear about it before they had assembled more than a few thousand troops. If that happened Andor would have an army for perhaps half an hour, a few weeks after that Elayne would be assasinated.

 

Its all a rediculous arguement though but Andor would not find it an easy task to do because of the ties the two rivers has and the forces who would like to weaken andor.

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Yes, I'm sure if the Queen decided to march to war against the TR, I'm sure her plans would be thwarted by a river. Given that she has the OP, she could put an army in Emond's Field in a day - bypassing the river, ignoring the distance between Caemlyn and the TR. Maybe not a great idea, but if she decided to take on the TR, she would be hard pushed to lose.

 

I disagree, but then again not like the Two Rivers doesnt have experience fighting for its life, something Andor does not, and quite frankly Andoran half trained boys are not up to the standards of trollocs.

 

I really don't understand this. Andor can field the single largest army of all the Randland nations at 250k and they skirmish non-stop with Murandy. How do they not have experience fighting for their lives. Yes a portion of that is levies but on the whole they are far more trained than the 2Rs(no one outside of Perrin's army knows a thing about war) and have the numbers beat by a huge margin.

 

In terms of gateways and the OP she certainly would be able to get enough people to create them. If Perrin had been serious about breaking away there would not a thing "petty" about that war.

Edited by Suttree
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If they fielded anything more than 75-100k permanent soldiers then I dont see how they could manage to keep everyone fed, and why they do not have a garrison close enough to notice 1000 whitecloaks blocking the bridge, and Murandy is trivial at best. Each Borderland army has probably 75k real soldiers, and judging from what common non soldiers among the borderlands say, the average commoner in Arafel, Saldaea, Shienar etc is better trained than most southern soldiers.

 

Course they have the numbers by a massive margine, but it wouldnt simply be the two rivers vs andor, neither side would allow that, hell the forsaken alone would jump at the chance to make it a killing field, Taim is not Elaynes biggest fan and could easily use the fact that he'd be defending Rands home as a way to swat andor's army.

 

Mat arrived very shortly after if not around the same time as Perrin, the Band alone with conscripts from the TR would make the Andoran army's time there a living hell, yes he would have to give a months notice, but that alone would be enough to give Elayne pause.

 

In short, yes she could take the Two Rivers, but it would cost her Cairhien at the least, if not Andor should things go badly that a large chunk of the army was eradicated, Rand would give Cairhien to someone who deserves it.. Dobrain.. Galad etc

 

If Perrin was not who he is, Faile was not 3rd in line for the Crown of Saldaea, who's army is not exactly small, has a good 4 or 5 times the training and experience, and Egwene was not Amylrin, Rand not raised there, Mat not born there, named his private army after his memories from there...

 

Granted if Perrin was serious he would have already sorted out a way to stop Andor anyway, a treaty with Murandy, envoys to the high seats who dislike Elayne etc, speaking with Rand, Taim, Egwene...

 

Elayne knew he either wasnt serious or it wasnt a threat, or Andor would have marched as soon as she had the crown as a way to forge andorans together.

 

anyways its too subjective to even be bothered with, its like saying Lan could reconquer Malkier if every land helped him.

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