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Most infuriating moment/topic in the books


Alric
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Why does the analogy not work for sul'dam and damane? The Seanchan consider damane to be animals, and sul'dam to be people. It is not hypocritical to believe that an animals abilities, while dangerous if the animal is allowed to wander freely, are useful if used under the direction of a human.

 

You compared a rabid animal to a trained, discipline one which i feel perfectly describes the situation for male and female channelers before the cleansing. Now the Damane are considered worse than animals, tainted creatures that are morally comparable to murderers; this is from Tuon specifically, the hypocrisy is that she is talking about choice about having the ability to choose, while simultaneously using the power of two women she's subjugating via the a'dam; its not like she's forcing them to weave (which if you think about it is a very cumbersome way of doing it) via torture she is literally using their power to bind and shield so the power is passing from them to her and she is weaving it.

 

A point about Tuon's ability as a Sul'dam, from reading the scene again she is extremely talented and versatile with the A'dam she uses it to - shield and bind Joline and Edesina, then releases the shield on Joline and allows her to embrace the source, then denies her the ability to embrace and then FORCES her to embrace without her trying to. Mat then intercedes and Tuon tries to bind him with air(I think) and she is startled and says " the weave just evaporated"(KOD p244) so she actually sees the weave evaporate, I think this is proof of how far along she is and that the A'dam could hold her.

 

 

I find this interesting when i think back to how Egwene was forced to channel by her Sul'dam with verbal commands and punishments via the A'dam for disobeying. Does anyone have a more solid understanding of the workings of the Sul'dam/Damane, who is weaving the flows?

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its not like she's forcing them to weave (which if you think about it is a very cumbersome way of doing it) via torture she is literally using their power to bind and shield so the power is passing from them to her and she is weaving it.

 

Just want to point out the power never flows through her however. There is no active connection to the source. Further as has been stated above she could very well just be talented. There is nothing to say those skills you mention only come after a "long" time working with the a'dam. RJ said you have to be just on the edge of stepping over. We don't know that she is.

Edited by Suttree
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its not like she's forcing them to weave (which if you think about it is a very cumbersome way of doing it) via torture she is literally using their power to bind and shield so the power is passing from them to her and she is weaving it.

 

Just want to point out the power never flows through her however. There is no active connection to the source. Further as has been stated above she could very well just be talented. There is nothing to say those skills you mention only come after a "long" time working with the a'dam. RJ said you have to be just on the edge of stepping over. We don't know that she is.

I think she would be closer to stepping over than any other suldam equivolant age. She would have the most opportunity to train with them, and she can see weaves. Like when she says "WTF the weaves melted around you matrim"

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its not like she's forcing them to weave (which if you think about it is a very cumbersome way of doing it) via torture she is literally using their power to bind and shield so the power is passing from them to her and she is weaving it.

 

Just want to point out the power never flows through her however. There is no active connection to the source. Further as has been stated above she could very well just be talented. There is nothing to say those skills you mention only come after a "long" time working with the a'dam. RJ said you have to be just on the edge of stepping over. We don't know that she is.

I think she would be closer to stepping over than any other suldam equivolant age. She would have the most opportunity to train with them...

 

But she isn't actually a sul'dam, that is the point. Why would she have trained the most when it is only a hobby for her and she certainly hasn't been doing it for a "long" time(based on age) which RJ mentions as being what is needed. It is only those older sul'dam who are later in the career that should be held. It is an interesting question however to think natural talent v. length of time working with a'dam in how one gets comfortable with seeing flows etc.

Edited by Suttree
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I think she would be closer to stepping over than any other suldam equivolant age. She would have the most opportunity to train with them...

 

But she isn't actually a sul'dam, that is the point. Why would she have trained the most when it is only a hobby for her and she certainly hasn't been doing it for a "long" time(based on age) which RJ mentions as being what is needed. It is only those older sul'dam who are later in the career that should be held. It is an interesting question however to think natural talent v. length of time working with a'dam in how one gets comfortable with seeing flows etc.

It appears that she can see the weaves, since she noticed that they disintegrate on Mat. I think that means she has developed the affinity with the One Power that sul'dam develop, since the big thing that led Egwene to the discovery was the idea of the sul'dam's affinity--you can't see the One Power unless you can touch the One Power.

 

It should develop over time, but it doesn't necessarily. Someone who is strong with the one power may only need a little push, and its likely that Tuon became a sul'dam after the testing age was done.

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But she isn't actually a sul'dam, that is the point. Why would she have trained the most when it is only a hobby for her and she certainly hasn't been doing it for a "long" time(based on age) which RJ mentions as being what is needed. It is only those older sul'dam who are later in the career that should be held. It is an interesting question however to think natural talent v. length of time working with a'dam in how one gets comfortable with seeing flows etc.

 

There a far more Sul'dam than Damane, but Tuon personally owns 12 Damane; this suggests that she has more access to Damane than most Sul'dam do. We know that she tested for Sul'dam after coming of age at 16, she is now almost 20(19 years 7 months in CoT) so she has around 3 years experience training Damane and she just finished a very long voyage across the ocean - This might have given her the opportunity to spent a lot of her time with the Damane she took - stuck on a ship with little else to do.

 

Every captured Sul'dam has been able to be held by the A'dam, I think being able to see the flows is the turning point in when a Sul'dam can be collared. i assume they have some kind of learning curve - can't see anything, starting to see flows and fumbling around with rudimentary weaves then becoming confident with weaves and can see the flows in a weave - which develops their natural ability without actually learning to embrace Saidar. With Tuon if as was suggested she is naturally talented then basically all her talent does is allow her to develop faster it doesn't make her able to weave with finesse and confidence while unable to see the flows or without knowing which weave does what.

Edited by Tensai0211
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I think their's a difference between seeing the weaves while linked to a damane and seeing the weaves on their own (and the turning point is likely around the time they see weaves on their own). The sul'dam held be the a'dam in Andor were able to see the weaves without being linked.

 

It's an imperfect example but when Nyn is linked to Moggy by the a'dam she can wield and see Moggys flows despite not normally being able to see weaves unless she's angry.

 

I'm sure their's a bit in GH when they go to the BA storeroom when Eg attaches a ball of light to the wall, Elayne sees it and copies, Eg then learns from Elayne and Nyn says something along the lines of "curse this block, I can't see". The thing I'm not sure of is whether their's textural evidence that when holding Moggy there were periods of time when she wasn't angry enough to channel (although that's certainly the inference I made) - I'll check text tonight.

 

If this is true then the fact that Tuon saw the weave disintegrate doesn't necessariy mean she can channel yet, as she was linked at the time.

 

But you're right, she is talented and has a lot of opportunity to link whenever she wants. Having said that, we haven't seen her do it onscreen until Joline and the others. Considering that most of her time has to be spent on politics and not being assassinated by her family, I suspect that the only damane she trains personally would be the 'difficult' ones, as I imagine that to a trainer they'd be of more interest. She didn't openly react to the cleansing, so I'd suggest she's not on the brink yet, but probably not far off.

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I have got to the point in my reread were Nyn, and Elayne force Matt to go to Ebou Dar. I now remember why I normally skip this part and jump ahead. These two girls are stupid. They have such a need to play at what they think Aes Sedai are, that they endanger themselves and their mission. And that does not even take into the account they way they treat Matt. I know Nyn grows out of it for the most part, but Elayne they should have just killed off somewhere. The second part that irritates me also includes Elayne, and that is her handling of Perrin after she gets the crown, and the way she insults him after he saves a portion of her nation from White Cloaks, and Trollocs. Now that I think about it, there is Elayne's disregard for all the people that die due to her stupidity. I have come to the conclusion that I do not like Elayne...

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There a far more Sul'dam than Damane, but Tuon personally owns 12 Damane; this suggests that she has more access to Damane than most Sul'dam do. We know that she tested for Sul'dam after coming of age at 16, she is now almost 20(19 years 7 months in CoT) so she has around 3 years experience training Damane and she just finished a very long voyage across the ocean - This might have given her the opportunity to spent a lot of her time with the Damane she took - stuck on a ship with little else to do.

 

Where did you get 12 from? Would like to check that out as I don't recall a concrete number. Regardless it matters little. You could have the rich daughter of a Queen that owns 30 horses as a hobby that is just one small sliver of a busy life being groomed to rule. It doesn't mean she rides more than someone who trains and rides them as her livelihood.

 

Every captured Sul'dam has been able to be held by the A'dam, I think being able to see the flows is the turning point in when a Sul'dam can be collared.

 

Saw you mention this point about "every sul'dam" above and not sure why you keep bringing it up. Aside from the obvious fallacy in thinking that since the sul'dam we have seen can be held they all can we have RJ's quote that was provided.

 

RJ

The a'dam can only hold sul'dam who have been sul'dam for a long time and so wearing the bracelet for a long time. Four months for example isn't enough. He said the circle helped them get to the point that's described in the book, as being on the brink of being able to channel, one foot stepped over or something.

 

So 4 months of "wearing the bracelet" isn't enough and one must be sul'dam for a "long time". I find it near impossible that she has spent four months wearing the bracelet as a part time hobby in just 3 years.

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Nyn at Salidar after Eg's just discovered weaving - she can't see weaves when she's not embracing the source.

 

LoC When Battle Begins

"Remember what?" Nynaeve practically wailed. "How did she do it? Oh, curse this cursedblock! Elayne, kick my ankle. Please?"

 

I can't find one that describes how she uses Moggy to channel with the a'dam, but I think their's a difference between seeing flows when connected through the a'dam and seeing the weaves on your own. Additionally as I said, she gives no indication of sensing the cleansing, when every other channeler we see does. I don't think she's crossed the line yet.

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Where did you get 12 from? Would like to check that out as I don't recall a concrete number. Regardless it matters little. You could have the rich daughter of a Queen that owns 30 horses as a hobby that is just one small sliver of a busy life being groomed to rule. It doesn't mean she rides more than someone who trains and rides them as her livelihood.

 

I got twelve from someone earlier in the thread so take it with a healthy dose of skepticism, if I remember correctly she brought her six best with her; she also has a number of Sul'dam in her employee. i could also suggest that aristocrats have more time to pursue their own interests, however that's not really the issue it was more of a question of access - there being far more Sul'dam than Damane it probably limits their access, while the Heir apparent will have all the access she wants.

 

Saw you mention this point about "every sul'dam" above and not sure why you keep bringing it up. Aside from the obvious fallacy in thinking that since the sul'dam we have seen can be held they all can we have RJ's quote that was provided.

 

Every Sul'dam we see is fully trained(i assume they go through a training process where they develop the skills necessary to be a Sul'dam, learn the necessary weaves, etc etc) and we know they all want to be complete(the One Power is addictive even for them i guess) so this leads to them reaching the threshold quickly, at matter of months even. RJ said it wasn't four months but i don't think he meant to suggest it was a matter of years either i think it takes less than a year of reasonable use to get to the point you can be held by the A'dam.

 

So 4 months of "wearing the bracelet" isn't enough and one must be sul'dam for a "long time". I find it near impossible that she has spent four months wearing the bracelet as a part time hobby in just 3 years.

 

The four months isn't literally four months wearing the bracelet 24 hours a day but 4 months as a normal Sul'dam having to work to get every opportunity they can to be "complete" while competing with all the other Sul'dam also wanting to be complete too. Tuon will have done the necessary training to be a Sul'dam i assume this takes a while, she will also have all the access she requests to do this addictive hobby(it's probably more than a hobby to her) and considering how disciplined she is, she probably set aside time every day for her Damane. There's also Mylen the Aes Sedai she personally trained as Damane i assume that took some time.

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I can't find one that describes how she uses Moggy to channel with the a'dam, but I think their's a difference between seeing flows when connected through the a'dam and seeing the weaves on your own. Additionally as I said, she gives no indication of sensing the cleansing, when every other channeler we see does. I don't think she's crossed the line yet.

 

Maybe they can only see the weaves while connected, it would explain the Sul'dam reluctance to confess to seeing the flows when the Kina re trying to get them to admit to being able to see them.

 

The point about the cleansing is quite telling considering even Morgase could sense it, and her ability with the OP is almost non-existant, however do we have anything to suggest other Sul'dam sensed it?

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Where did you get 12 from? Would like to check that out as I don't recall a concrete number. Regardless it matters little. You could have the rich daughter of a Queen that owns 30 horses as a hobby that is just one small sliver of a busy life being groomed to rule. It doesn't mean she rides more than someone who trains and rides them as her livelihood.

 

I got twelve from someone earlier in the thread so take it with a healthy dose of skepticism, if I remember correctly she brought her six best with her; she also has a number of Sul'dam in her employee. i could also suggest that aristocrats have more time to pursue their own interests, however that's not really the issue it was more of a question of access - there being far more Sul'dam than Damane it probably limits their access, while the Heir apparent will have all the access she wants.

 

Saw you mention this point about "every sul'dam" above and not sure why you keep bringing it up. Aside from the obvious fallacy in thinking that since the sul'dam we have seen can be held they all can we have RJ's quote that was provided.

 

Every Sul'dam we see is fully trained(i assume they go through a training process where they develop the skills necessary to be a Sul'dam, learn the necessary weaves, etc etc) and we know they all want to be complete(the One Power is addictive even for them i guess) so this leads to them reaching the threshold quickly, at matter of months even. RJ said it wasn't four months but i don't think he meant to suggest it was a matter of years either i think it takes less than a year of reasonable use to get to the point you can be held by the A'dam.

 

So 4 months of "wearing the bracelet" isn't enough and one must be sul'dam for a "long time". I find it near impossible that she has spent four months wearing the bracelet as a part time hobby in just 3 years.

 

The four months isn't literally four months wearing the bracelet 24 hours a day but 4 months as a normal Sul'dam having to work to get every opportunity they can to be "complete" while competing with all the other Sul'dam also wanting to be complete too. Tuon will have done the necessary training to be a Sul'dam i assume this takes a while, she will also have all the access she requests to do this addictive hobby(it's probably more than a hobby to her) and considering how disciplined she is, she probably set aside time every day for her Damane. There's also Mylen the Aes Sedai she personally trained as Damane i assume that took some time.

 

I get what you're saying about Tuon having access to damane, but she's had a lot to focus on. She takes equal pride in training horses, she has to have spent time playing politics, she may have been able to link each day, but probably not for very long. The sul'dam they've brought over are likely to be th emost skilled/experienced - they're expecting to leash hundreds of marath d'amane, they're not going to bring unskilled sul'dam. With that much (of assumed) experience, it's not surprising that they could all be leashed. Equally well, Tuon has the skill to match any of them...

 

I can't find one that describes how she uses Moggy to channel with the a'dam, but I think their's a difference between seeing flows when connected through the a'dam and seeing the weaves on your own. Additionally as I said, she gives no indication of sensing the cleansing, when every other channeler we see does. I don't think she's crossed the line yet.

 

Maybe they can only see the weaves while connected, it would explain the Sul'dam reluctance to confess to seeing the flows when the Kina re trying to get them to admit to being able to see them.

 

The point about the cleansing is quite telling considering even Morgase could sense it, and her ability with the OP is almost non-existant, however do we have anything to suggest other Sul'dam sensed it?

 

Their's nothing from Renna or the other 2 to suggest 1 way or another (Mat goes to see Joline who mentions it, as do the other 2 AS, but the 3 sul'dam are just talking about leashing the AS, could be they don't sense it, or could be that they dont mention it - in which case Tuon couldn't either). Not sure about the others - those with Elayne, we already know they can see the weaves. So inconclusive after all.

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its not like she's forcing them to weave (which if you think about it is a very cumbersome way of doing it) via torture she is literally using their power to bind and shield so the power is passing from them to her and she is weaving it.

 

Just want to point out the power never flows through her however. There is no active connection to the source. Further as has been stated above she could very well just be talented. There is nothing to say those skills you mention only come after a "long" time working with the a'dam. RJ said you have to be just on the edge of stepping over. We don't know that she is.

I think she would be closer to stepping over than any other suldam equivolant age. She would have the most opportunity to train with them...

 

But she isn't actually a sul'dam, that is the point. Why would she have trained the most when it is only a hobby for her and she certainly hasn't been doing it for a "long" time(based on age) which RJ mentions as being what is needed. It is only those older sul'dam who are later in the career that should be held. It is an interesting question however to think natural talent v. length of time working with a'dam in how one gets comfortable with seeing flows etc.

it may take years for a suldam, but thats because there are many many more suldam than damane. Tuon would have been fast tracked and had unlimited access whenever she wants. So it is feasable she has the most 'complete' time but less on the 'incomplete' training. Plus it seems she really enjoys training damane, so she does it for that (not to mention it gives an edge over her siblings who cannot personally use a damane)

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I think at best we can say there's a possibility the A'dam could hold her, we seem to have a number of pieces of evidence that are inconclusive and a number of piece that could be used on either side of the discussion. I think the A'dam must give them the abilty to see flows and weaves other wise a Sul'dam would be fumbling in the dark, without it they won't be able to see the weaves unless they're close to being able to use their own ability. We don't have any viewpoint from Tuon that suggest she can see flows without an a'dam so that might be the most telling point.

 

However, i feel it's likely that RJ had specific reasons for having her take the Sul'dam test when its such an unusual move for the Imperial family, perhaps all these other Sul'dam being collared before are just foreshadowing of events to come. One option is perhaps Galgan is a Darkfriend and has Tuon collared then declares himself emperor, another that occurs to me is the Sul'dam Bethamin who was questioning whether she can see the flows or not - she might demand to be made Damane, even though this terrifies her(though all the other Sul'dam begged and cried to hide this terrible secret) she might be strong enough to spark a questioning of the system.

Edited by Tensai0211
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Why does the analogy not work for sul'dam and damane? The Seanchan consider damane to be animals, and sul'dam to be people. It is not hypocritical to believe that an animals abilities, while dangerous if the animal is allowed to wander freely, are useful if used under the direction of a human.

 

You compared a rabid animal to a trained, discipline one which i feel perfectly describes the situation for male and female channelers before the cleansing.

You haven't really explained why my analogy doesn't work.
Now the Damane are considered worse than animals, tainted creatures that are morally comparable to murderers; this is from Tuon specifically,
I think you might be holding rather too tightly to that analogy. Damane aren't treated like criminals, they are treated like animals - kept in kennels, taken for walks, given treats if they're good.
the hypocrisy is that she is talking about choice about having the ability to choose, while simultaneously using the power of two women she's subjugating via the a'dam; its not like she's forcing them to weave (which if you think about it is a very cumbersome way of doing it) via torture she is literally using their power to bind and shield so the power is passing from them to her and she is weaving it.
But they have touched the Source - by choice or not - and she hasn't, and chooses not to. Not hypocritical, no matter how warped. She doesn't advocate one thing and do another.

 

A point about Tuon's ability as a Sul'dam, from reading the scene again she is extremely talented and versatile with the A'dam she uses it to - shield and bind Joline and Edesina, then releases the shield on Joline and allows her to embrace the source, then denies her the ability to embrace and then FORCES her to embrace without her trying to. Mat then intercedes and Tuon tries to bind him with air(I think) and she is startled and says " the weave just evaporated"(KOD p244) so she actually sees the weave evaporate, I think this is proof of how far along she is and that the A'dam could hold her.
Knowing that the weave has evaporated does not mean that she saw it evaporate.

 

The second part that irritates me also includes Elayne, and that is her handling of Perrin after she gets the crown, and the way she insults him after he saves a portion of her nation from White Cloaks, and Trollocs.
The way she insults him after he fends off Trollocs and Whitecloaks and then tries to steal a part of her kingdom for himself, raises his own banner, his own army, refuses entrance to her tax men... Yeah, that Elayne is so unreasonable.
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I think their's a difference between seeing the weaves while linked to a damane and seeing the weaves on their own (and the turning point is likely around the time they see weaves on their own). The sul'dam held be the a'dam in Andor were able to see the weaves without being linked.

 

It's an imperfect example but when Nyn is linked to Moggy by the a'dam she can wield and see Moggys flows despite not normally being able to see weaves unless she's angry.

 

I'm sure their's a bit in GH when they go to the BA storeroom when Eg attaches a ball of light to the wall, Elayne sees it and copies, Eg then learns from Elayne and Nyn says something along the lines of "curse this block, I can't see". The thing I'm not sure of is whether their's textural evidence that when holding Moggy there were periods of time when she wasn't angry enough to channel (although that's certainly the inference I made) - I'll check text tonight.

 

If this is true then the fact that Tuon saw the weave disintegrate doesn't necessariy mean she can channel yet, as she was linked at the time.

But Nynaeve can also channel and could be held by an a'dam, so the fact that she can't see weaves while not being able to see the source only adds to the idea that being able to see weaves is likely a sign of being able to channel.

A point about Tuon's ability as a Sul'dam, from reading the scene again she is extremely talented and versatile with the A'dam she uses it to - shield and bind Joline and Edesina, then releases the shield on Joline and allows her to embrace the source, then denies her the ability to embrace and then FORCES her to embrace without her trying to. Mat then intercedes and Tuon tries to bind him with air(I think) and she is startled and says " the weave just evaporated"(KOD p244) so she actually sees the weave evaporate, I think this is proof of how far along she is and that the A'dam could hold her.
Knowing that the weave has evaporated does not mean that she saw it evaporate.

No, but there is little way for her to have known it does otherwise. Remember, if Tuon was unable to see the weaves, she would only know that it didn't work--perhaps it had no effect, perhaps the weaves were made stationary, perhaps the weaves simply went through him. But she specifically describes how the weaves unravel upon touching him--she can definitely see them, at least while connected.

 

 

"The ability to see weaves" is a large factor in determining whether or not you can be held by the a'dam, and i'm pretty sure sul'dam can only ever see weaves when connected--Elayne's sul'dam refuse to see weaves at all. I'm thinking that Tuon has already crossed the point where she can be held by the a'dam.

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The one scene that really annoyed me was Alanna's bonding of Rand in LoC. It unsettled me so much that I needed two days before I could continue. For me it was just the fact that if an Aes Sedai wanted to, she could just do it. I found it quite offensive actually. I also know that if it was done to me, I would have torn the inn to its foundations down around her ears, I would have been that enraged over it. it was in that scene that I found Rand likeable so much more, even though Alanna was lucky she did not do it in TGS!

Edited by wotfan4472
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The one scene that really annoyed me was Alanna's bonding of Rand in LoC. It unsettled me so much that I needed two days before I could continue. For me it was just the fact that if an Aes Sedai wanted to, she could just do it. I found it quite offensive actually. I also know that if it was done to me, I would have torn the inn to its foundations down around her ears, I would have been that enraged over it. it was in that scene that I found Rand likeable so much more, even though Alanna was lucky she did not do it in TGS!

I would have rathered he kept her captive after that, since he sort of knew what would happen if she died. But oh well

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The second part that irritates me also includes Elayne, and that is her handling of Perrin after she gets the crown, and the way she insults him after he saves a portion of her nation from White Cloaks, and Trollocs.
The way she insults him after he fends off Trollocs and Whitecloaks and then tries to steal a part of her kingdom for himself, raises his own banner, his own army, refuses entrance to her tax men... Yeah, that Elayne is so unreasonable.

 

Well, considering that part of the kingdom would not even BE there if not for him... and that the only reason any taxmen are sent is that he restored the province... I can see how insulting him is a bad thing. Saying 'yo Perrin you messed things up. Thanks for fixing things but I really can't let others make up lords just like that...'

 

She pretty much did that save for the thanking part, of course, and we know how hard it was for her to thank Mat, so maybe she meant it like this.

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The second part that irritates me also includes Elayne, and that is her handling of Perrin after she gets the crown, and the way she insults him after he saves a portion of her nation from White Cloaks, and Trollocs.
The way she insults him after he fends off Trollocs and Whitecloaks and then tries to steal a part of her kingdom for himself, raises his own banner, his own army, refuses entrance to her tax men... Yeah, that Elayne is so unreasonable.

 

Well, considering that part of the kingdom would not even BE there if not for him... and that the only reason any taxmen are sent is that he restored the province... I can see how insulting him is a bad thing. Saying 'yo Perrin you messed things up. Thanks for fixing things but I really can't let others make up lords just like that...'

 

She pretty much did that save for the thanking part, of course, and we know how hard it was for her to thank Mat, so maybe she meant it like this.

well she sees it as a power grab, by being thankful she hands him the advantage, by being hard on him then 'granting' what he already has she is able to keep his ambition in check, and still reward him for what he has done. Its all the Great Game

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A point about Tuon's ability as a Sul'dam, from reading the scene again she is extremely talented and versatile with the A'dam she uses it to - shield and bind Joline and Edesina, then releases the shield on Joline and allows her to embrace the source, then denies her the ability to embrace and then FORCES her to embrace without her trying to. Mat then intercedes and Tuon tries to bind him with air(I think) and she is startled and says " the weave just evaporated"(KOD p244) so she actually sees the weave evaporate, I think this is proof of how far along she is and that the A'dam could hold her.
Knowing that the weave has evaporated does not mean that she saw it evaporate.

No, but there is little way for her to have known it does otherwise. Remember, if Tuon was unable to see the weaves, she would only know that it didn't work--perhaps it had no effect, perhaps the weaves were made stationary, perhaps the weaves simply went through him. But she specifically describes how the weaves unravel upon touching him--she can definitely see them, at least while connected.

Or she felt it.

 

The second part that irritates me also includes Elayne, and that is her handling of Perrin after she gets the crown, and the way she insults him after he saves a portion of her nation from White Cloaks, and Trollocs.
The way she insults him after he fends off Trollocs and Whitecloaks and then tries to steal a part of her kingdom for himself, raises his own banner, his own army, refuses entrance to her tax men... Yeah, that Elayne is so unreasonable.

 

Well, considering that part of the kingdom would not even BE there if not for him... and that the only reason any taxmen are sent is that he restored the province... I can see how insulting him is a bad thing. Saying 'yo Perrin you messed things up. Thanks for fixing things but I really can't let others make up lords just like that...'

 

She pretty much did that save for the thanking part, of course, and we know how hard it was for her to thank Mat, so maybe she meant it like this.

So that gives him the right to steal it? "Well, you wouldn't have it if not for me, so I'm justified in taking it from you." Why would Elayne thank him for stealing a part of her kingdom from her? Even aside from how damaging it would be to her negotiations with him to give him an advantage like that early on. On no level does it make sense for her to open by thanking him.

 

@Durinax: I would not have killed anyone, just destroyed the building going by my penchant for demolishing objects when I get mad.

I see you don't stop to consider the poor innocent innkeeper.
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