[Spoilers chapter 1] What is Rand's answer?

[Guest Johan Bjarnevik]

I just read chapter one over at Tor and I found the following quote to be one of the most interesting in the chapter

 

That didn’t mean he had all of the answers. Despite four hundred years of memories nestled in his brain, he still worried about what he had to do. Lews Therin hadn’t known how to seal the Bore. His attempt had led to disaster. The taint, the Breaking, all for an imperfect prison with seals that were now brittle.

One answer kept coming to Rand. A dangerous answer. One that Lews Therin hadn’t considered.

What if the answer wasn’t to seal the Dark One away again? What if the answer, the final answer, was something else? Something more permanent.

Yes, Rand thought to himself for the hundredth time. But is it possible?

 

My belief is that the most probable way to win the last battle and being certain that it really is the last battle is to destroy the wheel of time, and in the process destroying the DO. I don't really know if that is possible in Randland, but I really believe that it fits. And I think that it's something that has been hinted of since tEotW; remember Ba'alzamon taunting Rand about destroying the wheel, and Herid Fel musings of how the last battle really could be the last battle if this age would come again?

 

Then maybe, every time Rand's age comes around there is a last battle, and the DO's prison maybe is remade without the bore.

 

I can't wait to january!

[lolguy26]

well it may be true !!!! i mean the book's name is A memory of light maybe the epilogue will show the next age or something :shrug:

[Suttree]

and Herid Fel musings of how the last battle really could be the last battle if this age would come again?

 

Actually Fel said the opposite in that this is not "the last battle", merely the last battle for this age. He is correct in this and RJ himself said there is nothing about this age that makes it special(yes I know Fain is a wildcard).

 

LoC Ch.18

"What? Yes, exactly the point. It can’t be the Last Battle. Even if the Dragon Reborn seals the Dark One’s prison again as well as the Creator made it. Which I don’t think he can do." He leaned forward and lowered his voice conspiratorially. "He isn’t the Creator, you know, whatever they say in the streets. Still, it has to be sealed up again by somebody. The Wheel, you see."

"I don’t see... " Rand trailed off.

"Yes, you do. You’d make a good student." Snatching his pipe out, Herid drew a circle in the air with the stem. "The Wheel of Time. Ages come and go and come again as the Wheel turns. All the catechism." Suddenly he stabbed a point on that imaginary wheel. "Here the Dark One’s prison is whole. Here, they drilled a hole in it, and sealed it up again." He moved the bit of the pipe along the arc he had drawn. "Here we are. The seal’s weakening. But that doesn’t matter, of course." The pipestem completed the circle. "When the Wheel turns back to here, back to where they drilled the hole in the first place, the Dark One’s prison has to be whole again."

[he who comes with a bong]

I think it all ties into the Dragon is one with the land. I belive he will sacrafice himself with his Blood on the rocks therby sealing the DO out of time and space. Basically using his ties with the land and the super Tavernness he has to forcefully put the DO out of the picture all togther.

[Amandera]

I don't see it happening. The whole series is about balance, between good and evil, man and woman, saidin and saidar etc. What happens if Rand takes out one of the few constants since the beginning of time? Can Light exist without Shadow? I don't think so.

 

Plus didn't RJ say somewhere that amount of the Power necessary would destroy the pattern? I remember something like that but am not really sure.

 

No, I think best possible outcome is a utopian golden age and the worst is end of all creation. You don't just go around messing with the rules of a creation you can't possibly understand fully.

[thisguy]

I think it all ties into the Dragon is one with the land. I belive he will sacrafice himself with his Blood on the rocks therby sealing the DO out of time and space. Basically using his ties with the land and the super Tavernness he has to forcefully put the DO out of the picture all togther.

I was thinking something like that myself. He needs something to actually touch the DO - a buffer between the OP and the DO. He needs a buffer, Callandor has no buffer - somehow there's a connection, I think. Maybe. Maybe, Ishamael will sacrifice himself as the buffer.

 

On a slightly different note, I'm starting to wonder if Moridin will give Rand a terangreal hand at some point - the black onyx hand.

[Amandera]

True Power as the buffer? Would be ironic. Rand can thank DO for the taint and the link with Moridin afterwards, then have a very good laugh at the deity who practically beat itself.

[thisguy]

I thought about that too, but I have a hard time thinking that the DO would let him get away with that.

[MarkDiLillo]

Going to be something along the lines of the DO and the Dragon are linked and are forces of nature so to speak. DO only touches the world and exists when the Dragon is alive. Dark One appears in a cyclic manner every few ages and the Dragon is born at the same time to balance him out. Soon as the Dragon dies in some manner involving dealing with the DO properly then they are both dormant again until the next cycle. Only reason the DO has existed over the current age while LTT/Rand has been dead is because LTT failed to deal with him properly last time around and an age of discord resulted (consider it as close to a win as possible for the Shadow).

 

There is no way to win or lose for either side. It is an endless cycle of nature that results and Rand just has to figure a way to end this particular period of the cycle and die for the sins of humanity to free them from the shadow ala Jesus. The reason the DO never has won in the past even when Rand turns to the Shadow is because he literally cannot win and remake the pattern. All he can do is break the world and cause a new age (an age that might be under the Shadow and suck 10x as hard as the third age) of strife and terribleness until the Dragon returns to balance things again. There is no ending and no beginning - it is a cycle that will continue forever.

 

This explains why the DO will never win even with Rand turned to the Shadow. I suppose Rand annihilating the world with the CK would have resulted in a "win" of some kind, but the reality is that he probably wouldn't have been able to destroy all life on earth and instead would've just broke the world in a horrible fashion.

 

I actually dont think that the DO can exist or touch the world when Rand is not alive. In that sense, Rand has to die to free the world from the Shadow because once he is dead the shadow is powerless again.

 

Yes - this is an imperfect explanation. I think its going to be somewhat close to the final explanation though. Rand is going to realize that he can just flat out leave the bore wide open and he will give himself to the Shadow and die to complete this period of the endless cycle. As soon as Rand does his thing and dies the shadow will go with him.

[b3arz3rg3r]

I think Rand is considering unweaving the bore. According to LTT's knowledge unweaving is impossible, though we already know that it isn't. So Rand thinks that he might try something that even LTT considers impossible.

[Neophyte]

I think Rand is considering unweaving the bore. According to LTT's knowledge unweaving is impossible, though we already know that it isn't. So Rand thinks that he might try something that even LTT considers impossible.

 

Now that is an interesting idea. It would account for why Callandor is so important too - unweaving it would have to be done with women, since the Bore was made with both saidin and saidar.

 

And Mierin is one of the ones who made it, so if there is any reason for him to try to rescue her, that could be it. Her knowledge could be invaluable.

 

In fact ...

 

What if ... wait for it ... one of Moiraine's requests was that the Eelfinn give her Mierin's memory of making the Bore!

[Mik]

I just read chapter one over at Tor and I found the following quote to be one of the most interesting in the chapter

 

That didn’t mean he had all of the answers. Despite four hundred years of memories nestled in his brain, he still worried about what he had to do. Lews Therin hadn’t known how to seal the Bore. His attempt had led to disaster. The taint, the Breaking, all for an imperfect prison with seals that were now brittle.

One answer kept coming to Rand. A dangerous answer. One that Lews Therin hadn’t considered.

What if the answer wasn’t to seal the Dark One away again? What if the answer, the final answer, was something else? Something more permanent.

Yes, Rand thought to himself for the hundredth time. But is it possible?

 

My belief is that the most probable way to win the last battle and being certain that it really is the last battle is to destroy the wheel of time, and in the process destroying the DO. I don't really know if that is possible in Randland, but I really believe that it fits. And I think that it's something that has been hinted of since tEotW; remember Ba'alzamon taunting Rand about destroying the wheel, and Herid Fel musings of how the last battle really could be the last battle if this age would come again?

 

Then maybe, every time Rand's age comes around there is a last battle, and the DO's prison maybe is remade without the bore.

 

I can't wait to january!

The Shadow cannot be totally destroyed, because it's very existence is needed to define the Light.

Shai'tan is the much needed dark counterpart of Creation (RJ himself said something along these lines)

 

Here's what I think in a nuttshell (again);

 

The answer Rand probably -finally- has come up with is a clue comming from his own people, from his own blood;

The People of the Dragon dance untill the dream ends and then they 'embrace death' .

 

In the one place where T'a'r cannot be reached and where reality is but clay to Shai'tan, at Shayol Ghul, the Horn of Valere will be sounded and 'all of Time' will gather there (as it did in TGH), mixing all the worlds and real world into one. In that place where Thought is Matter, a battle of will-power between Shai'tan and the Dragon will decide the fate of Creation. The Aiel will lock arms and Sing, to help remember a madman -Lews Therin Telamon- who he is, like the true Dedicated did when Jaric Mondoran destroyed Tzora. They will help the Dragon have his memory of Light in the maelstrom of Chaos.

 

The Dragon will finally die his so deserved final death right before he is overcome by the Shadow, by remembering Light. He will will himself -the only piece of Creation to work with there- to become Light, and thus making the saying of 'being the Light given flesh' true to some extend. The Dragon will sacrifice himself -hoping for nothing but salvation and rebirth (the strongest oath that binds a man)- in T'a'r at Shayol Ghul, by literally willing himself to be the dawning sun (literally his 'memory of Light') in that place totally devoid of light and thought (the Heart of the Dark). The Shadow will flee before the Light, but the Dragon's mind will embrace it -The Dragon will embrace Death- and die, binding the seed of Shadow where the Creator had designed it. In the best possible place; Inside the purest and strongest of Souls, a Soul untouchable by pure evil, unless the person carrying that Soul let's him! Inside the Soul of the Dragon.

 

And there will the seed of Shadow linger, waiting for the turning of the Wheel into an Age where all memories of Shai'tan are forgotten and faded beyond myth... An Age where the knowledge of the Power is at such a level, that people will be able to reach for it -unknowing what they are truly reaching for- through the bounderies of the Pattern itself... An Age where -like any other- at one time the Soul that brings it is spun into the Pattern, so the Seed of Shadow inside it can be pinpointed.

 

...and then humanity will ride again on the winds of the rising storm... and on the Last Day, "the Dragon will ride again on the winds of Time itself!"

[BFG]

Going to be something along the lines of the DO and the Dragon are linked and are forces of nature so to speak. DO only touches the world and exists when the Dragon is alive. Dark One appears in a cyclic manner every few ages and the Dragon is born at the same time to balance him out. Soon as the Dragon dies in some manner involving dealing with the DO properly then they are both dormant again until the next cycle. Only reason the DO has existed over the current age while LTT/Rand has been dead is because LTT failed to deal with him properly last time around and an age of discord resulted (consider it as close to a win as possible for the Shadow).

 

...

 

I'm not sure if I'm misunderstanding what you're saying or if I'm mistaking what Fel was talking about, but,

 

first age stuff happens. Second age leads eventually to the bore being drilled, the war of shadow and the Dragon sealing the bore (but always imperfectly). Third age always leads to the seals weakening and the Dark One becoming more active and ends with the Dragon Reborn and the Last Battle. At this stage we don't know if the Dragon Reborn manages to reseal it perfectly, or if he just manages a patch (although the former is more likely, else why would RJ have chosen to tell this ages story?). But either the Dragon Reborn seals the bore perfectly, or another does in one of the remaining ages, but if not the third than more likely to be the fourth than the fifth, etc (time is needed for the Dark One to fade out of memory). (Oh and fourth, ffth, sixth and seventh ages - stuff happens :) ). LTT was never going to be able to succeed in sealing the bore properly as it would change the structure of the third age completely - if LTT had succeeded then potentially no taint, no breaking...

 

Unless the Dark One wins and breaks the wheel.

 

EDIT to add: Mik,I like the idea of Rand remembering the light, bringing the second dawn, but I'm not sure that Rands soul is the purest soul, the taint drove him to do some pretty cruel stuff. Tricky one, he is the chosen one (although it may be me rejecting it, because I want and to somehow live again with Myn, Avi and Elayne - and yes I know it's not going to happen, but I can dream.

[Mik]

EDIT to add: Mik,I like the idea of Rand remembering the light, bringing the second dawn, but I'm not sure that Rands soul is the purest soul, the taint drove him to do some pretty cruel stuff. Tricky one, he is the chosen one (although it may be me rejecting it, because I want and to somehow live again with Myn, Avi and Elayne - and yes I know it's not going to happen, but I can dream.

I specifically mentioned the Dragon, Lews Therin Telamon, that will finally make amends and gets his well deserved final death he so often desired.

I'm pretty sure Rand -through something Fain does- will surive the ordeal. Rand will show up again after a Night that lasted three full days in hours in the Real World. I'm not sure how it's counted, but it's counted some way, because there won't be a dawning sun during those days. (Since time flows differently in Tar...I'm sure to Rand the battle will feel like an eternity, but it could only be seconds in Tar. RAFO, I guess)

 

Then -when Lews Therin sacrifices himself- Rand will show up again, for is he not called 'he who comes with the (second) Dawn'...? :)

 

Throughout the whole series, Ishamael was always after Lews Therin ("I win again, Lews Therin!")

Throughout the whole series, Fain was always after Rand ("It's never over, Al'Thor!")

 

Rand will survive, maybe through having his mind bonded to so many living people.. or maybe due to Fain wanting Al'Thor for himself... but probably a combination of those factors.

I'm not sure how, but it feels right.

[Rufae]

If the DO ceases to exist when the Dragon dies, then why did he try ti kill Rand early on? So I don't think that is true.

 

If you recall, what Meirin found when her research team was poking around was "a thinness in the Pattern". So the prison is the Pattern, it isn't rand's soul and it isn't the True Power. It is the Pattern stretched to create a seal over the DO.

 

So we have Rand, Mat, and Perrin; the three strongest ta'veren the world knows int he world at the same time. Ta'averen have the ability to bend the Pattern to their will. So they will unite in a force of will and bend the Pattern over the Bore. I thin kthe Aiel and the Ogier will join in singing The Song which also has an effect of bending the Pattern to the will of the singers.

 

This explains why all three of the Super Guys must be there at the LB in order to have a chance to win. They will need all of their Pattern bening ability.

[Mik]

If the DO ceases to exist when the Dragon dies, then why did he try ti kill Rand early on? So I don't think that is true.

There are more degrees of victory. I think that Shai'tan did (and still does) everything in it's (ahum) "power", to somehow gain acces to the Dragon Soul, because that would mean Shai'tan would truly be free and as a result Creation would be destroyed. First Ishamael tried coercing and pressure to have Rand bend knee to Shai'tan of his own free will. When that didn't work he tried to make Rand turn into his own enemy. Killing the Dragon without gaining freedom from it's Soul can be considered as Shai'tan winning a battle, but not the war.

 

If you recall, what Meirin found when her research team was poking around was "a thinness in the Pattern". So the prison is the Pattern, it isn't rand's soul and it isn't the True Power. It is the Pattern stretched to create a seal over the DO.

I take it you agree that a Soul is a part of a persons Thread, right? People's Threads are a big part of the Pattern.

"The Dragon is always there to confront the Shadow". Why is that, you think? I think it's due to the fact that the spinning of the Dragon Soul is one of the key ingredients itself. The Wheel spinning the Dragon Soul into the weave of the Pattern brings the possibility for Shai'tan to be sensed, because that's where he's sealed away. And that's why the Dragon needs to seal him away again; it's his choice and his stubbornness / strenght of will that has to do it.

 

 

So we have Rand, Mat, and Perrin; the three strongest ta'veren the world knows int he world at the same time. Ta'averen have the ability to bend the Pattern to their will. So they will unite in a force of will and bend the Pattern over the Bore. I thin kthe Aiel and the Ogier will join in singing The Song which also has an effect of bending the Pattern to the will of the singers.

 

This explains why all three of the Super Guys must be there at the LB in order to have a chance to win. They will need all of their Pattern bening ability.

Why does the Dragon need to die then?

 

 

 

EDIT: I just needed to post this somewhere!

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Holy...we're being overrun by Trollocs! Fight!

[BFG]

If the DO ceases to exist when the Dragon dies, then why did he try ti kill Rand early on? So I don't think that is true.

There are more degrees of victory. I think that Shai'tan did (and still does) everything in it's (ahum) "power", to somehow gain acces to the Dragon Soul, because that would mean Shai'tan would truly be free and as a result Creation would be destroyed. First Ishamael tried coercing and pressure to have Rand bend knee to Shai'tan of his own free will. When that didn't work he tried to make Rand turn into his own enemy. Killing the Dragon without gaining freedom from it's Soul can be considered as Shai'tan winning a battle, but not the war.

 

If you recall, what Meirin found when her research team was poking around was "a thinness in the Pattern". So the prison is the Pattern, it isn't rand's soul and it isn't the True Power. It is the Pattern stretched to create a seal over the DO.

I take it you agree that a Soul is a part of a persons Thread, right? People's Threads are a big part of the Pattern.

"The Dragon is always there to confront the Shadow". Why is that, you think? I think it's due to the fact that the spinning of the Dragon Soul is one of the key ingredients itself. The Wheel spinning the Dragon Soul into the weave of the Pattern brings the possibility for Shai'tan to be sensed, because that's where he's sealed away. And that's why the Dragon needs to seal him away again; it's his choice and his stubbornness / strenght of will that has to do it.

 

 

So we have Rand, Mat, and Perrin; the three strongest ta'veren the world knows int he world at the same time. Ta'averen have the ability to bend the Pattern to their will. So they will unite in a force of will and bend the Pattern over the Bore. I thin kthe Aiel and the Ogier will join in singing The Song which also has an effect of bending the Pattern to the will of the singers.

 

This explains why all three of the Super Guys must be there at the LB in order to have a chance to win. They will need all of their Pattern bening ability.

Why does the Dragon need to die then?

 

 

 

EDIT: I just needed to post this somewhere!

5165 users are online (in the past 15 minutes)

69 members, 5073 guests, 23 anonymous users

Holy...we're being overrun by Trollocs! Fight!

 

 

 

Sam - I thought Taveran twisted chance, they can't get somebody to say/do something that they'd never normally say/do, but if it's something they'd say/do one time in a million that chance may change to one in two.

 

Mik - thanks for the (possibly) happy ending, you have my backing :)

 

*whispers 'What's the difference between a guest and an anonymous reader'*

[Mik]

Mik - thanks for the (possibly) happy ending, you have my backing :)

 

*whispers 'What's the difference between a guest and an anonymous reader'*

Yes! One more Soul harvested! ;)

 

The difference between someone not logged in or without an account @ D'mount & people logged in with an account not wanting to be seen nosing through posts. ;)

[avernite]

crazy theory time:

 

What if the DO is some sort of distilling? The evils of mankind bound and put away into one place and sealed off at the end of the 7th or 1st age. By sealing out human evil the world became a better place, but the whole mass, when reopened, boiled over with all the evil prevented over a whole age... like Shadar Logoth/Mashadar it had acquired a sort of sentience, but due to the much greater skill and focusing in its creation, it could manifest as a true conciousness (the DO).

 

What Rand is going to do is simple: break the world by returning evil to the world, but in so doing diluting it to be the shadow in every man's heart. Risky, but even the most devastating nuclear war cannot undo ALL the pattern. Just kill people. The DO, by being so focused, unbalanced the pattern.

 

 

And yes, RJ quotes contradict part of this. But I think it would've been an awesome way to shape the world. From the best of intentions, human evil is banished so existential evil develops.

[mjasghar786]

Going to be something along the lines of the DO and the Dragon are linked and are forces of nature so to speak. DO only touches the world and exists when the Dragon is alive. Dark One appears in a cyclic manner every few ages and the Dragon is born at the same time to balance him out. Soon as the Dragon dies in some manner involving dealing with the DO properly then they are both dormant again until the next cycle. Only reason the DO has existed over the current age while LTT/Rand has been dead is because LTT failed to deal with him properly last time around and an age of discord resulted (consider it as close to a win as possible for the Shadow).

 

There is no way to win or lose for either side. It is an endless cycle of nature that results and Rand just has to figure a way to end this particular period of the cycle and die for the sins of humanity to free them from the shadow ala Jesus. The reason the DO never has won in the past even when Rand turns to the Shadow is because he literally cannot win and remake the pattern. All he can do is break the world and cause a new age (an age that might be under the Shadow and suck 10x as hard as the third age) of strife and terribleness until the Dragon returns to balance things again. There is no ending and no beginning - it is a cycle that will continue forever.

 

This explains why the DO will never win even with Rand turned to the Shadow. I suppose Rand annihilating the world with the CK would have resulted in a "win" of some kind, but the reality is that he probably wouldn't have been able to destroy all life on earth and instead would've just broke the world in a horrible fashion.

 

I actually dont think that the DO can exist or touch the world when Rand is not alive. In that sense, Rand has to die to free the world from the Shadow because once he is dead the shadow is powerless again.

 

Yes - this is an imperfect explanation. I think its going to be somewhat close to the final explanation though. Rand is going to realize that he can just flat out leave the bore wide open and he will give himself to the Shadow and die to complete this period of the endless cycle. As soon as Rand does his thing and dies the shadow will go with him.

 

Sorry I didn't like that whole matrix thing where neo is only the One because the computer made him so

[mjasghar786]

Btw has it not been confirmed that at times the dragon has turned to the DO

Do that is not enough

Maybe the dangerous idea is what the DO wants?

[udpaco13]

I think Rand plans on killing the DO. That is what he means by "Is it possible?". He has been told by everyone from the beginning that it is not possible and is even laughable to consider. I think he is considering it a lot. Not sure how he plans on doing it, but it does not sound like he knows yet either.

[mjasghar786]

Sorry for so many posts

It has been said that the dragon soul had been born in other ages and not done anything much as nothing was happening at the time - this sort of abrogates the idea that the soul is holding the DO

Also LTT was born before the DO was freed so that proves it

What would be interesting is if someone had ever asked if the dragon had been rewoven between ltt dying and rand being born Hawkwing did recog him after all

[Suttree]

Btw has it not been confirmed that at times the dragon has turned to the DO

 

Yes it has, RJ confirmed it. When that happened the result has been a draw for the DO.

[driedraspberry]

I think Rand is considering unweaving the bore. According to LTT's knowledge unweaving is impossible, though we already know that it isn't. So Rand thinks that he might try something that even LTT considers impossible.

 

Now that is an interesting idea. It would account for why Callandor is so important too - unweaving it would have to be done with women, since the Bore was made with both saidin and saidar.

 

And Mierin is one of the ones who made it, so if there is any reason for him to try to rescue her, that could be it. Her knowledge could be invaluable.

 

In fact ...

 

What if ... wait for it ... one of Moiraine's requests was that the Eelfinn give her Mierin's memory of making the Bore!

 

Sweet! Although, as awesome as the last part would be I assumed their memory transfer services had limits hence Mat's situation, and they wouldn't have access to Lanfear's memories from before she entered.