Spoilers! Chapter One - Eastwards the Winds Blew is up on Tor

[muddasssir]

hey @ Fionwe you can actually reason out pretty decently if you put your mind to it. you are acvtually reasonable.Wow! i am impressed. Any way you mentioned it already that we already have a male Aes Sedai and yes I agree with Fionwe that we will have male Aes Sedai or some sort of frame work for that by the end of AMOL.

[Ian Ohlander]

They've both been put through extremely parallel experiences. Rand took to the world stage a lot earlier, of course, whereas Egwene was focussed on her single floortile. But that's not the case now. And the entire language about them is "equal but opposite/together but apart". Its worth noting that Egwene is, in the end, the successor to the same title Lews Therin held. And Lews Therin had no prophesies about him facing the DO. Nothing like the KC, at least.

 

The thing is, every major character who had any kind of arrogance has been brought down a peg or two and learned humility. They have learned to be humble and be willing to see that they are not always right or that others may know more than they do. Every character who has ever been arrogant includes people like Rand himself and even Cadsuane. But 2 individuals have not learned this. Egwene and Tuon. And, given that we are talking about Egwene, unless she learns this, as Rand Sedai has had to learn it (despite the fact that he is the Creator's champion dragon soul for all the ages) i have a viceral reaction to her being his equal. It has nothing to do with sexism or her gender. It has everything to do with my extreme dislike of arrogance and the feeling that you are always right. And that hasn't happened to Egwene or Tuon. So the idea of her being Rand's equal counterpart disturbs me because it seems like she has gotten a free pass and has truly been a Mary Sue. Moiraine pointed out that Rand needed people to tell him what he needed to hear. And implicit in that (and what came to pass in VoG) was that Rand finally realized that he had to listen to other people and be respectful to them.

 

None of that has happened to Egwene. Her reactions to Nynaeve, when she realized she was willing to go along Rand and took his side far too often, indicate that she does not like having her own faults or mistakes (or the mistakes of those she represents) pointed out. Her arrogant reaction to Siuan ("the anger of the Amrylin has been kindled...." seriously? SERIOUSLY?), who only acted on the best intelligence she had during the tower raid, indicates that she refuses to see another person's perspective. My mind vicerally (and I've used that word twice) reacts to the thought that a person like that is in any way the equal to the in-world Messiah who has reached his own elightenment when she hasn't had to learn the same lessons he has. Now some of this is bad writing. Her character is schizophrenic in the last 2 books. But it extends beyond the last 2 books. Tuon irritates me for the same reason. She needs a reality check and needs to see that she does not know everything. She needs her preconceived assumptions challenged and to learn that her mental framework is flawed and needs augmentation. And the apparent retconning in book 14 doesnt help because it seems like those flaws and the need to learn those lessons are merely ignored and Egwene is simply declared to be the equal balance to Rand, despite their nearly consistant adversarial relationship that started with TSR. No. That doesn't cut it with me. It does not seem just.

 

Egwene is not his equal until she learns some freaking humility as he had to.

[The Fisher King]

Awesome post, Ian.

 

 

Fish

[Barid Bel Medar]

I think fionwe isn't talking in a literal sense, but a thematic sense of worldly political power.

 

In the most literal sense, nobody can be Rand's equal. His power is unique. I am not saying he is better than everyone else, or is perfect, but simply put, nobody can equal what he has. He is literally tied to the land. His well-being is directly tied to the health of the land. The sun literally shines for him. He has the strange power to actually force back the DO's influence. He has "lived" 420 odd years of life, spanning two lifetimes. He is the earth's champion. A singular figure which cannot be compared to anything. (Except perhaps the Nae'blis as his equal opposite, but Moridin hasn't displayed that kind of power) The Shadow has hounded him for years, he has been cast down and reforged. The Shadow itself couldn't break him despite every effort.

 

Egwene doesn't have that list of godly powers, however, politically and thematically, she has had a similar experience. As head of the White Tower, she has much power and influence. There are 3 such people that are equals in this respect. Rand, Egwene and Fortuona.

 

Thematically, they have had similar experiences. Both have risen to the heights of worldly power and share many experiences. Yes, Egwene thinks that Rand has had it worse, and that is certainly true, with Elaida's kidnap and the focus that the Shadow had on Rand. Egwene has (to their sorrow) been largely written off by the Shadow until recently. Not to mention Rand was pretty much insane half the time. Still, the rise to power is there, and they have both ended up in similar political positions.

[Bluedust9]

This chapter actually made me more excited for the release of the book! Can't wait.

 

Yeah the prologue was awesome, I can't wait.

[fionwe1987]

The thing is, every major character who had any kind of arrogance has been brought down a peg or two and learned humility.

Just because you missed it doesn't mean it didn't happen. Egwne has gotten multiple doses of humility. It has never been drastic, never been "brought down a peg", because Egwene has always been the willing student. Unlike others who are suspicious of those who seem to know more than them, Egwene gravitates towards such people and tries to learn from them. So her doses of humility have been smaller, many times given by fond teachers not exasperated advisers and friends. Her curiosity, her stubbornness, her sense of self... these have been molded by Nynaeve, Moiraine, Verin, the Wise Ones and Siuan. When Egwene talks of the "Law of unintended consequences" and of learning of it from Siuan, what do you think she was saying? That's the humility of knowing that you can't ever control everything. When she learns the Aiel way of taking what you want, but paying for it... that too is humility- of knowing that what you do has a consequence, and it is your responsibility to pay off those consequences. No one had to force these things down her throat. That's because its Egwene's deepest character trait that she wants to be the best at whatever she does. She's like a sponge absorbing any knowledge anyone will give, and because she learned her lessons from the Aiel and the Wise Ones (and even her mother and Nynaeve back home) well, she never descended to the depths that Rand did. To be sure, she didn't have the same kind of provocation either. Her job, her burden was thrust on her like Rand's, but she was lucky enough to have already learned the important lessons to succeed in carrying it.

 

They have learned to be humble and be willing to see that they are not always right or that others may know more than they do.

Egwene always knew that, and instead of keeping these people who knew more at arms length, she rushed towards them headlong. Why do you want her to learn a lesson she never needed?

 

Every character who has ever been arrogant includes people like Rand himself and even Cadsuane. But 2 individuals have not learned this. Egwene and Tuon.

You really think those two are similar? I pity someone whose grasp of Egwene's characterization is so poor. And Cadsuane is not arrogant. Read Jordan's notes about it. Here's the important part, though:

 

For many sisters, the fact that she had was just one more indication of how set in her ways she was; they thought Cadsuane would never change, could never change. Of course, that was far from true; Cadsuane was remarkably adaptable, as befits someone who survived as long as she.

 

And, given that we are talking about Egwene, unless she learns this, as Rand Sedai has had to learn it (despite the fact that he is the Creator's champion dragon soul for all the ages) i have a viceral reaction to her being his equal.

Well, you're going to have that visceral reaction, then. Brandon said that Egwene's character growth was complete, and she was ready for the Last Battle.

It has nothing to do with sexism or her gender. It has everything to do with my extreme dislike of arrogance and the feeling that you are always right. And that hasn't happened to Egwene or Tuon. So the idea of her being Rand's equal counterpart disturbs me because it seems like she has gotten a free pass and has truly been a Mary Sue. Moiraine pointed out that Rand needed people to tell him what he needed to hear. And implicit in that (and what came to pass in VoG) was that Rand finally realized that he had to listen to other people and be respectful to them.

Egwene has never believed she knows everything, or that she doesn't need other people, or their advice.

None of that has happened to Egwene. Her reactions to Nynaeve, when she realized she was willing to go along Rand and took his side far too often, indicate that she does not like having her own faults or mistakes (or the mistakes of those she represents) pointed out.

Remind me what you're talking about here. Is this a reference to Nynaeve saying the Aes Sedai were too secluded from the world? Because you might want to read that part again. Her reaction was to look troubled, then tell Nynaeve to keep her thoughts quiet for now so that it doesn't cause difficulties in the Aes Sedai raising her.

 

As for her thoughts on herself and those she leads:

 

"Sorilea will dislike this news," Bair said, shaking her head. "She still had a hope that you would leave those fools in the White Tower and return to us."

"Please take care," Egwene said, summoning herself a cup of tea. "I am not only one of those fools, my friend, but I am their leader. Queen of the fools, you might say."

Bair hesitated. "I have toh."

"Not for speaking the truth," Egwene assured her. "Many of them are fools, but are we not all fools at some point? You did not abandon me to my failures when you found me walking Tel'aran'rhiod. In like manner, I cannot abandon those of the White Tower."

Amys' eyes narrowed. "You have grown much since we last met, Egwene al'Vere."

That sent a thrill through Egwene.

 

I'd like to know which kind of arrogant person who hates their mistakes pointed out will say the bolded parts. And she said this after she was bound by the Oath Rod, so there's no way this is a lie either. Egwene genuinely believes that.

 

And do you really believe Amys would praise Egwene the way she did if she were still too arrogant? Remember that Amys had no problems in calling Rand out when he was arrogant. Egwene is like a daughter to her. She's be even more prone to point out faults with Egwene. But she does not. Not that this is evidence that is conclusive. But its indicative.

 

Her arrogant reaction to Siuan ("the anger of the Amrylin has been kindled...." seriously? SERIOUSLY?),

First of all, get your quotes right. She said "My" anger has been kindled, not "the Amyrlins". Egwene doesn't suffer from referring to herself in third person. Secondly... of course seriously. Why exactly is she wrong here? Siuan disobeyed an express order. Bryne himself felt Siuan was wrong to do so, and Siuan in her PoV also indicates that Egwene would be right to feel pissed.

who only acted on the best intelligence she had during the tower raid, indicates that she refuses to see another person's perspective.

It appears that you simply refuse to read Egwene's perspective, then gladly heap blame. You might remember this little passage:

Egwene had been as forceful as possible with Siuan during their meetings in Tel'aran'rhiod, and yet they'd still come against her wishes. Perhaps she had been too secretive. It was a danger—secrecy. It was what had pulled down Siuan. The woman's time as head of the Blue Ajah's eyes-and-ears had taught her to be parsimonious with information, doling it out like a stingy employer on payday. If the others had known the importance of Siuan's work, perhaps they wouldn't have decided to work against her.

Egwene ran her fingers along the smooth, tightly woven pouch she wore tied to her belt. Inside was a long, thin item, retrieved secretly from the White Tower earlier in the morning.

Had she fallen into the same trap as Siuan? It was a danger. She had been trained by Siuan, after all. If Egwene had explained in more detail how well her work in the White Tower was going, would the others have stayed their hands?

It was a difficult line to walk. There were many secrets that an Amyrlin had to hold. To be transparent would be to lose her edge of authority. But with Siuan herself, Egwene should have been more forthcoming. The woman was too accustomed to taking action on her own. The way she had kept that dream ter'angreal against the Hall's knowledge and wishes was an indication of that. Yet Egwene had approved of that, unconsciously encouraging Siuan to defy authority.

Yes, Egwene had made mistakes. She could not lay all the blame on Siuan, Bryne and Gawyn. She had likely made other mistakes as well; she would need to look at her own actions in more detail later.

 

Yes, clearly an arrogant woman's PoV, that...

My mind vicerally (and I've used that word twice) reacts to the thought that a person like that is in any way the equal to the in-world Messiah who has reached his own elightenment when she hasn't had to learn the same lessons he has. Now some of this is bad writing. Her character is schizophrenic in the last 2 books. But it extends beyond the last 2 books. Tuon irritates me for the same reason. She needs a reality check and needs to see that she does not know everything. She needs her preconceived assumptions challenged and to learn that her mental framework is flawed and needs augmentation. And the apparent retconning in book 14 doesnt help because it seems like those flaws and the need to learn those lessons are merely ignored and Egwene is simply declared to be the equal balance to Rand, despite their nearly consistant adversarial relationship that started with TSR. No. That doesn't cut it with me. It does not seem just.

Egwene and Rand don't have an adversarial relationship. They've never worked against each other. They have a confrontational relationship, and they both used to chafe at a lot of the others' statement s, but apart from needing a little temperance, their relationship is fine. They speak their minds to each other, and each knows the other well enough not to be bullied into silence. Can they round off some rough corners and stop sniping at each other? Sure. But I think their independent growth as leaders will take care of most of that. They have a lot more reserve, a lot more control over themselves now. I doubt we'll see the kind of verbal tussles we saw pre-LoC.

Egwene is not his equal until she learns some freaking humility as he had to.

You missed it. Doesn't change that it happened. And if you're waiting for some serious lesson in humility for Egwene, you're going to be disappointed based on Brandon's statement.

[MasterAblar]

Can you specify what you mean here? Do you mean the Black Tower will continue, but be allied to the White? Or that the Asha'man will become Aes Sedai, but have separate Ajahs and a separate equivalent of the Hall and the Amyrlin?

 

Well, it's an interesting question actually. In a scenario where the Black and White Tower remain seperate for the foreseable future, when the time comes, would the Asha'man really be willing to completely relocate to the WT? I can't imagine that they would throw away their roots just like that, not after having helped the BT grow until it rivals the WT. I think the Asha'man and Aes Sedai will remain seperate, and the Asha'man will always be trained at the BT and the Aes Sedai at the WT, although perhaps just like the deal the WT has with the Wise Ones and Windfinders, there could be an exchange of some sort between the Accepted and Dedicated. Overtime the relations between Black and White Towers would grow closer and more intricate. The ideal situation, outlandish as it may sound, would be to build something completely new, where the Asha'man and Aes Sedai work together as equals. Perhaps the Asha'man will adopt the same Ajahs, or groups based on the same system. There could be a single Hall, with an Asha'man and an Aes Sedai at the head of it, like the Hall of Servants of the AoL, except this time it would have the Guardians. Prophecy says the Guardians balance the Servants. In this manner, though there would still be distinct differences between the two, they would be united and part of one whole, just like the Fang and Flame in the Aes Sedai symbol. And it may not be so unbelievable either. Afteralll, the greatest things are accomplished by male and female channellers working together so why not dream big?

[The Fisher King]

*Elayne* would be the biggest example of a Mary Sue in WOT. I loathe Egwene but she is no Mary Sue.

 

 

Fish

[Ian Ohlander]

First of all, I want to apologize if I've turned this into an opportunity for Egwene bashing. I know that is not the intent of this thread. And I grant you that one of her "deepest character traits" is wanting to be the best at what she does. And she does throw herself at those who help her out.

 

But beginning with TPOD, her character stance toward Rand went from confrontational to antagonistic. It seemed (to me anyway) that the longer she was Amyrlin, the less charitable she was to Rand and the rumors she heard about him, despite the fact that her own experience with Gawyn should have told her that rumors weren't always true or that the story was always more complicated. She displayed no indication of loyalty or thought about her childhood friend, a boy she had grown up with an known intimately. The Egwene of TGH, the one that loved Rand as a friend and wanted to do whatever she could to help him, that Egwene disappeared. You could genuinely see she cared for Rand, even when she realized she didn't love him anymore. But at numerous stages after that she seemed to view Rand with suspicion and accusation (and keep in mind that Dark Rand didn't really become hard until WH when he was held in that cell. "In the heart of winter shall winter's heart be born.") and viewed it as her job to pop his head swelling. Despite the fact that what he did- going against Moiraine's advice, was actually the right thing to do. Never does she seem to acknowledge anything he does as having been right. Instead she is indignant at Rand for not letting Moiraine push him around.

 

TGS seemed to show Egwene finally understood Rand. When she was in prison in a small cell she began to indentify with his being imprisoned by Elaida and his mental state. I was ecstatic because finally- FINALLY!- someone was learning to empathize and be willing to understand someone else. And she was so awesome in TGS the way her passive resistance brought sisters over to her (despite the fact that the AS had to be dumbed down in order to make her look good. Like a 200 year old woman is going to ask a 19 year old about how to deal with a warder. That was really jarring.) I really liked her through most of that. But at the end, her castigation of Siuan for her rescue just ruined it for me.

First of all, get your quotes right. She said "My" anger has been kindled, not "the Amyrlins". Egwene doesn't suffer from referring to herself in third person. Secondly... of course seriously. Why exactly is she wrong here? Siuan disobeyed an express order. Bryne himself felt Siuan was wrong to do so, and Siuan in her PoV also indicates that Egwene would be right to feel pissed.

 

So here's the situation in chapter 41 of TOM. Egwene is sitting on the floor against the wall, eyes closed, barely awake. She's thinking of all that she needs to do over the next few days. Gawyn and Siuan come upon her. Gawyn, after picking her up, indignantly says "The just left her there....defenseless in the hallway. Anyone could have come upon her like that. What if the Seanchan had discovered her." Egwene hears all this a tries to protest but she can't even speak. She is so tired The only thing keeping her awake is being jostled by Gawyn's steps, and that only barely. So to recap the situation, Egwene can't move and can barely speak. Egwene had told Siuan that she should only mount a rescue if her life seemed in danger. The last time Siuan sees Egwene is in TAR and Egwene vanished in mid-sentence. Then Siuan learns of the Seanchen attack. And despite Bryne's protests, everything they see is only indicative of Egwene being in danger. Bryne nearly is killed by a Seanchan assassin. They can see toraken taking women. If anything, the danger is more serious that they thought. And when they do come upon Egwene, she is basically passed out in a hallway. Egwene knows all this. And she also knows, because of Verin's visit, that the black ajah is not only real, but has names and they are walking the halls. Even if the Seanchan are gone, the BA is there and she is sitting there defenseless, similar to Rand after he fought in Cairhien and nearly killed himself by using too much of the power inTFOH.

 

Instead of realizing that they had acted with the best intel they had, she jumps all over Gawyn and Siuan (and I'm not a Gawyn fan at all.) No recognition of the exigent circumstances that lead to a decision that turned out to be unnecessary (and complicated matters). Because she had told Siuan that if it was life and death, she could rescue her. Note, also, Siuans response to Brynes question of whether it was worth doing despite Egwene's anger.

 

Yes...she didn't realize how close this band was to slipping away from her. And we couldn't know that she'd be safe within the tower during the attack. If there's one thing my time in the White Tower has tought me, it's that there is a time for gathering and planning, but one also has to act. You can't always wait for certainty.

Bryne smiles at her for this. Clearly, from what they knew, even after the fact, she believed it was the right thing to do. But Egwene refuses to see things from her perspective.

 

You might remember this little passage...

 

Yes, she does acknowledge her error there. And yet what she really acknowledges there is that she has encouraged Siuan to be a woman who takes actions on her own and uses secrecy. There is no understanding of how the situation looked from their perspective- and it really did look bad.

 

Moreover, even after admiting internally her own part in the mistakes (the passage you quoted), she still treats Siuan like crap. For example speaking to Bryne in front of her (and in public at the back of the army):

Do your best to keep her out of trouble...She has been in quite a bit of it lately. I have half a mind to give her to you to use as a foot soldier. I believe that the military organization might be good for her, to remind her that sometimes, obedience overrides initiative."

Siuan wilted, glancing away.

"I haven't decided what to do with you yet...But my anger has been kindle. And my trust has been lost. You will need to soothe the first and stoke the second if you wish to enter my confidence again."

She turned from Siuan to the general, who looked sick. Probably from being forced to feel Siuan's shame.

"You are to be commended for your bravery, letting her bond you...I realize that keeping her from trouble is a nearly impossible task, but I have confidence in you."

Yeah, clearly she isn't being arrogant and snippy and really rubbing Siuan's nose in it, especially in a public setting. That right there. That one scene disgusted me. It was so humiliating and sanctimonious and holier-than-though. And this is after the "realization" you quoted earlier. Not one thing redeeming there. As if Egwene never disobeyed authority or needed forgiveness. As if she never acted hastily and without though. That lost any respect I had gained for Egwene thoughout that whole book. It reeked of arrogance and condescension. You honestly don't think Egwene was way out of line here?

 

You really think those two are similar? I pity someone whose grasp of Egwene's characterization is so poor. And Cadsuane is not arrogant. Read Jordan's notes about it. Here's the important part, though:

For many sisters, the fact that she had was just one more indication of how set in her ways she was; they thought Cadsuane would never change, could never change. Of course, that was far from true; Cadsuane was remarkably adaptable, as befits someone who survived as long as she.

The notes don't matter. Arrogance doesn't meen not adaptable. And characterization- how the person behaves- is what matters, not what was "meant" or in the author's notes. Whether that was his intenstion or not is irrelevant. What matters is what we saw. Cadsuane's arrogance was shown in the way she treated people. Her treatment of Rand in particular was mind-bogglingly stupid. The disrespect and physical humiliation she used was just ridiculous. I don't care who you are, if someone treats you like that, you will respond negatively. You are being treated like a child. It reeks of arrogance. Instead of letting Rand see that she cared, of which I had no doubt, (as Nynaeve did, and was why he trusted her), she tried to manipulate him. "You tried to manipulated me, and you failed horribly," he tells her. And she did learn humility, both by Tam's calling her out and later, when Rand chides her for her condescension in calling him boy. She pales visibly and he reminds her that she wished to dance with the Dragon Reborn. A small thing, but from that moment, as with Moiraine and later Nynaeve, she treated him with respect and even mentally acknowledged that he was doing well.

 

Well, you're going to have that visceral reaction, then. Brandon said that Egwene's character growth was complete, and she was ready for the Last Battle.

That may very well be so. Doesn't change anything though.

 

Remind me what you're talking about here. Is this a reference to Nynaeve saying the Aes Sedai were too secluded from the world? Because you might want to read that part again. Her reaction was to look troubled, then tell Nynaeve to keep her thoughts quiet for now so that it doesn't cause difficulties in the Aes Sedai raising her.

This was in reference to Siuan and Egwene eating soup with Nynaeve. Once again, Egwene is blaming Rand for the AM bonding sisters. Now first, because I don't think this is stressed enough, the bonding was in response to a hostile force bent on stilling and hanging them on the spot. The only reason it failed was because they were way more than expected. Egwene knows this, as Amyrlin. The AM bonded them instead of killing them. But Egwene doesn't consider that a justified response. Would she rather have had the men kill the sisters? Or lay down meekly and die? What options did she think they had here? So there's that. And when Nynaeve points out that Rand never told them to do this, she brushes it off as irrelevant. They are his responsibility. That is when Nynaeve draws a comparison with the sisters who captured him. Egwene's eyes narrow, clearly irritated.

 

Again, no willingness to understand the circumstances, to think of alternative the AM could have used, no willingness to acknowledge Rand's order to not harm sisters or the fact that he had nothing to do with their actions. That, to me says arrogance. Refusal to any POV but your own.

 

And if you're waiting for some serious lesson in humility for Egwene, you're going to be disappointed based on Brandon's statement.

I'm not waiting for a serious lesson. Cadsuane learned it and accorded respect with just a few statements and observations. But I defintely think that it's something that should have happened to Egwene.

And keep in mind, many here who have always had Egwene's back have commented on the "retconning" or "rehabilitation" of Egwene in chapter 1 of AMOL. You know the Egwene in TOM especially, was written poorly and portrayed as confrontational to Rand. Now that was indeed probably for tension purposes, but there it is all the same. To me though, her arrogance reared it's head even in TGS and earlier, as I pointed out. And with her ascent to power, her unwillingness to treat the people she has known and grown up with with at least a modicum of charity, the benefit of the doubt, especially after the facts become known to you....well what do you call that? Why is there this suspicion and distrust, despite her internal observation that Rand was a man you could "trust with the world"? She consistantly took the side of the group she was studying with instead of looking at it from her friend's perspective. She showed no loyalty and understanding. That is what bothered me. Not blind loyalty, but the benefit of the doubt, or at least holding her decision about things in abeyance until she understood Rand's side.

 

She's a terrible friend, in my mind, and that is why I grew to dislike her.

[BFG]

^This,

 

Thanks I've been waiting for someone to articulate the problems I have with Egwene.

[csarmi]

First of all, I want to apologize if I've turned this into an opportunity for Egwene bashing. I know that is not the intent of this thread. And I grant you that one of her "deepest character traits" is wanting to be the best at what she does. And she does throw herself at those who help her out.

 

But beginning with TPOD, her character stance toward Rand went from confrontational to antagonistic. It seemed (to me anyway) that the longer she was Amyrlin, the less charitable she was to Rand and the rumors she heard about him, despite the fact that her own experience with Gawyn should have told her that rumors weren't always true or that the story was always more complicated. She displayed no indication of loyalty or thought about her childhood friend, a boy she had grown up with an known intimately. The Egwene of TGH, the one that loved Rand as a friend and wanted to do whatever she could to help him, that Egwene disappeared. You could genuinely see she cared for Rand, even when she realized she didn't love him anymore. But at numerous stages after that she seemed to view Rand with suspicion and accusation (and keep in mind that Dark Rand didn't really become hard until WH when he was held in that cell. "In the heart of winter shall winter's heart be born.") and viewed it as her job to pop his head swelling. Despite the fact that what he did- going against Moiraine's advice, was actually the right thing to do. Never does she seem to acknowledge anything he does as having been right. Instead she is indignant at Rand for not letting Moiraine push him around.

 

TGS seemed to show Egwene finally understood Rand. When she was in prison in a small cell she began to indentify with his being imprisoned by Elaida and his mental state. I was ecstatic because finally- FINALLY!- someone was learning to empathize and be willing to understand someone else. And she was so awesome in TGS the way her passive resistance brought sisters over to her (despite the fact that the AS had to be dumbed down in order to make her look good. Like a 200 year old woman is going to ask a 19 year old about how to deal with a warder. That was really jarring.) I really liked her through most of that. But at the end, her castigation of Siuan for her rescue just ruined it for me.

First of all, get your quotes right. She said "My" anger has been kindled, not "the Amyrlins". Egwene doesn't suffer from referring to herself in third person. Secondly... of course seriously. Why exactly is she wrong here? Siuan disobeyed an express order. Bryne himself felt Siuan was wrong to do so, and Siuan in her PoV also indicates that Egwene would be right to feel pissed.

 

So here's the situation in chapter 41 of TOM. Egwene is sitting on the floor against the wall, eyes closed, barely awake. She's thinking of all that she needs to do over the next few days. Gawyn and Siuan come upon her. Gawyn, after picking her up, indignantly says "The just left her there....defenseless in the hallway. Anyone could have come upon her like that. What if the Seanchan had discovered her." Egwene hears all this a tries to protest but she can't even speak. She is so tired The only thing keeping her awake is being jostled by Gawyn's steps, and that only barely. So to recap the situation, Egwene can't move and can barely speak. Egwene had told Siuan that she should only mount a rescue if her life seemed in danger. The last time Siuan sees Egwene is in TAR and Egwene vanished in mid-sentence. Then Siuan learns of the Seanchen attack. And despite Bryne's protests, everything they see is only indicative of Egwene being in danger. Bryne nearly is killed by a Seanchan assassin. They can see toraken taking women. If anything, the danger is more serious that they thought. And when they do come upon Egwene, she is basically passed out in a hallway. Egwene knows all this. And she also knows, because of Verin's visit, that the black ajah is not only real, but has names and they are walking the halls. Even if the Seanchan are gone, the BA is there and she is sitting there defenseless, similar to Rand after he fought in Cairhien and nearly killed himself by using too much of the power inTFOH.

 

Instead of realizing that they had acted with the best intel they had, she jumps all over Gawyn and Siuan (and I'm not a Gawyn fan at all.) No recognition of the exigent circumstances that lead to a decision that turned out to be unnecessary (and complicated matters). Because she had told Siuan that if it was life and death, she could rescue her. Note, also, Siuans response to Brynes question of whether it was worth doing despite Egwene's anger.

 

Yes...she didn't realize how close this band was to slipping away from her. And we couldn't know that she'd be safe within the tower during the attack. If there's one thing my time in the White Tower has tought me, it's that there is a time for gathering and planning, but one also has to act. You can't always wait for certainty.

Bryne smiles at her for this. Clearly, from what they knew, even after the fact, she believed it was the right thing to do. But Egwene refuses to see things from her perspective.

 

You might remember this little passage...

 

Yes, she does acknowledge her error there. And yet what she really acknowledges there is that she has encouraged Siuan to be a woman who takes actions on her own and uses secrecy. There is no understanding of how the situation looked from their perspective- and it really did look bad.

 

Moreover, even after admiting internally her own part in the mistakes (the passage you quoted), she still treats Siuan like crap. For example speaking to Bryne in front of her (and in public at the back of the army):

Do your best to keep her out of trouble...She has been in quite a bit of it lately. I have half a mind to give her to you to use as a foot soldier. I believe that the military organization might be good for her, to remind her that sometimes, obedience overrides initiative."

Siuan wilted, glancing away.

"I haven't decided what to do with you yet...But my anger has been kindle. And my trust has been lost. You will need to soothe the first and stoke the second if you wish to enter my confidence again."

She turned from Siuan to the general, who looked sick. Probably from being forced to feel Siuan's shame.

"You are to be commended for your bravery, letting her bond you...I realize that keeping her from trouble is a nearly impossible task, but I have confidence in you."

Yeah, clearly she isn't being arrogant and snippy and really rubbing Siuan's nose in it, especially in a public setting. That right there. That one scene disgusted me. It was so humiliating and sanctimonious and holier-than-though. And this is after the "realization" you quoted earlier. Not one thing redeeming there. As if Egwene never disobeyed authority or needed forgiveness. As if she never acted hastily and without though. That lost any respect I had gained for Egwene thoughout that whole book. It reeked of arrogance and condescension. You honestly don't think Egwene was way out of line here?

 

You really think those two are similar? I pity someone whose grasp of Egwene's characterization is so poor. And Cadsuane is not arrogant. Read Jordan's notes about it. Here's the important part, though:

For many sisters, the fact that she had was just one more indication of how set in her ways she was; they thought Cadsuane would never change, could never change. Of course, that was far from true; Cadsuane was remarkably adaptable, as befits someone who survived as long as she.

The notes don't matter. Arrogance doesn't meen not adaptable. And characterization- how the person behaves- is what matters, not what was "meant" or in the author's notes. Whether that was his intenstion or not is irrelevant. What matters is what we saw. Cadsuane's arrogance was shown in the way she treated people. Her treatment of Rand in particular was mind-bogglingly stupid. The disrespect and physical humiliation she used was just ridiculous. I don't care who you are, if someone treats you like that, you will respond negatively. You are being treated like a child. It reeks of arrogance. Instead of letting Rand see that she cared, of which I had no doubt, (as Nynaeve did, and was why he trusted her), she tried to manipulate him. "You tried to manipulated me, and you failed horribly," he tells her. And she did learn humility, both by Tam's calling her out and later, when Rand chides her for her condescension in calling him boy. She pales visibly and he reminds her that she wished to dance with the Dragon Reborn. A small thing, but from that moment, as with Moiraine and later Nynaeve, she treated him with respect and even mentally acknowledged that he was doing well.

 

Well, you're going to have that visceral reaction, then. Brandon said that Egwene's character growth was complete, and she was ready for the Last Battle.

That may very well be so. Doesn't change anything though.

 

Remind me what you're talking about here. Is this a reference to Nynaeve saying the Aes Sedai were too secluded from the world? Because you might want to read that part again. Her reaction was to look troubled, then tell Nynaeve to keep her thoughts quiet for now so that it doesn't cause difficulties in the Aes Sedai raising her.

This was in reference to Siuan and Egwene eating soup with Nynaeve. Once again, Egwene is blaming Rand for the AM bonding sisters. Now first, because I don't think this is stressed enough, the bonding was in response to a hostile force bent on stilling and hanging them on the spot. The only reason it failed was because they were way more than expected. Egwene knows this, as Amyrlin. The AM bonded them instead of killing them. But Egwene doesn't consider that a justified response. Would she rather have had the men kill the sisters? Or lay down meekly and die? What options did she think they had here? So there's that. And when Nynaeve points out that Rand never told them to do this, she brushes it off as irrelevant. They are his responsibility. That is when Nynaeve draws a comparison with the sisters who captured him. Egwene's eyes narrow, clearly irritated.

 

Again, no willingness to understand the circumstances, to think of alternative the AM could have used, no willingness to acknowledge Rand's order to not harm sisters or the fact that he had nothing to do with their actions. That, to me says arrogance. Refusal to any POV but your own.

 

And if you're waiting for some serious lesson in humility for Egwene, you're going to be disappointed based on Brandon's statement.

I'm not waiting for a serious lesson. Cadsuane learned it and accorded respect with just a few statements and observations. But I defintely think that it's something that should have happened to Egwene.

And keep in mind, many here who have always had Egwene's back have commented on the "retconning" or "rehabilitation" of Egwene in chapter 1 of AMOL. You know the Egwene in TOM especially, was written poorly and portrayed as confrontational to Rand. Now that was indeed probably for tension purposes, but there it is all the same. To me though, her arrogance reared it's head even in TGS and earlier, as I pointed out. And with her ascent to power, her unwillingness to treat the people she has known and grown up with with at least a modicum of charity, the benefit of the doubt, especially after the facts become known to you....well what do you call that? Why is there this suspicion and distrust, despite her internal observation that Rand was a man you could "trust with the world"? She consistantly took the side of the group she was studying with instead of looking at it from her friend's perspective. She showed no loyalty and understanding. That is what bothered me. Not blind loyalty, but the benefit of the doubt, or at least holding her decision about things in abeyance until she understood Rand's side.

 

She's a terrible friend, in my mind, and that is why I grew to dislike her.

 

+1 for the tower scene

 

But I think this is a glaring plothole, not the fault of Egwene. One of Brandon's messups. As you mentioned earlier, this is not here. She learnt respect.

Just as the Tam vs Cadsuane scene is a terrible misinterpretation of Cadusane's haracter - and completely uncalled for.

[BFG]

+1 for the tower scene

 

But I think this is a glaring plothole, not the fault of Egwene. One of Brandon's messups. As you mentioned earlier, this is not here. She learnt respect.

Just as the Tam vs Cadsuane scene is a terrible misinterpretation of Cadusane's haracter - and completely uncalled for.

 

But the problem is that even if it is a messup of BS, that is now what is written, so that's what we have to form our opinions on. There's also a problem with the debate, any examples from before tGS can't really be counted, as her big empathic (is that even a word?) moment hapens in tGS. So debate as to her current character can only be built on what happened in ToM and the released material from aMoL, which seem to contradict each other (to a certain extent).

 

I disagree on the Tam vs Cads scene as well (to a degree), I don't need to use much imagination to see that the state that Rand is in could push anyone to behaving irrationally, but it did seem like a quick transition, probably too quick.

[driedraspberry]

*Elayne* would be the biggest example of a Mary Sue in WOT. I loathe Egwene but she is no Mary Sue.

 

 

Fish

 

Not even close. Elayne is a probable character. She displays all the advantages and many of the disadvantages of an heir to a monarchy. Mary Sue is attributed to an unrealisticly awesome female character. Things like outsmarting centuries old badass political minds while having no knowledge of such things a year ago qualifies. Or the most gorgeousest of all princes falling in love with her for standing around blushing.

[MauricXe]

I've never understood the dislike of Egwene. Members, very nice post.

[Hopefire]

I'm not sure where anyone is getting Egwene being somehow "rehabilitated" in the first chapter of AMOL. She's the same person she's always been. Intelligent and quick minded, able to respond swiftly and decisively to a problem in an effective and practical way that doesn't leave options on the table. But: she has great difficulty seeing a problem though eyes other than her own.

 

You see both sides of Egwene in the prologue.

 

On the one hand, her linking with Nynaeve is totally in character. There is a problem, Nynaeve is going to be more effectively at handling the problem than Egwene would be, so Egwene supports Nynaeve. This is the same sort of thinking on Egwene's part that led to Egwene gathering up a circle when the Seanchan attacked, to taking a Red sister as her Keeper, building the alliance with the Wise Ones and Windfinders, etc. And we see that she did have some research done at one point or another, which also fits in with Egwene's character.

 

The other side of Egwene is there too. While she consents that there may be a scenario in which the Seals need to be broken, she feels that as the Watcher of the Seals it's her right to be the one to make that choice. That's a right that she has not earned – to put it bluntly, she had no idea where the Seals were that she was supposed to be watching, and Rand has all the surviving Seals at this point. Plus, you know, they were Rand's (Lews Therin's) Seals in the first place. While it might well be the best thing for Egwene to have them, for reasons ranging from practicality to prophecy, she has no specific right to them beyond the claim that her office makes.

The larger gaffe on Egwene's part comes earlier in her conversation with Elayne.

 

“You have a different perspective on him than I. Tell me what you think of this letter. I might not send it to him. I haven’t decided yet.”

“The tone is . . . forceful,” Elayne noted.

“He doesn’t seem to respond to anything else.”

 

While it shows some forward progression with Egwene – asking a friend and close ally for an opinion – it also shows that she's failed to learn the most important lesson of all when it comes to dealing with the Dragon: Rand does not respond well to intimidation. There's not a single person in the story that's been able to get what they want from Rand by intimidation. People that have tried to intimidate Rand have sometimes even lived to regret their mistake. Rand can and will accept people who'll disagree with him, so long as they're willing to work with him.

 

So, based on the first chapter, I'd say that Egwene in the first chapter is the same character that she's always been. Brilliant and good intentioned, but severely lacking in ability to see the world from other perspectives.

[Ian Ohlander]

Sorry for derailing the thread. And it is clear that Rand and Egwene will be working together. The balance that was lost in the AOL between male and female will be restored. Rand and Egwene were meant to grow up with each other and know they could trust each other. I think that trust will be restored and they will correct the mistakes they made the first time (I honestly believe Egwene is Latra Posae Decume reborn.) Rand's epiphany on Dragonmount regarding why rebirth is not slavery is critical. It gives them a chance to get it right. Latra was right in the end to deny the LTT, because of the back-blast, but for the wrong reason. Her plan was risky too. Her's was to errect a barrier and then figure out how to close the bore. Only, the access keys for the CK that were to be used to make the barrier were lost to the shadow. At that point, what other option was there. You have 2 plans, both with unknown risks and unknown effectiveness. One place becomes impossible. You are on the verge of losing the war. The shadow was steam-rolling the light by the end. It was literally then end.

 

At that point what do you do? One would think go with the only option you have left. But she, and all the female AS who became part of the fateful concord, refused to go with that plan. Her resistence makes no sense. There is literally nothing left to do, at this point. They are about to lose the battle. It's hail mary time.

 

And the truth is, LTT was right in what he did. He bought team light 3000 more years, with the pattern playing the long game and setting up the pieces for the the second half of the fight. Sadly, that victory came at a great cost, with the taint and the breaking. But some survival is better than none, and now they have another chance to seal the bore properly.

 

Both right, both wrong. And not working together. An imblance that then reverberated down through every aspect of the third age.

 

this time, it will be different (I hope). Egwene will come around and trust Rand again. I think their friendship will be restored. That seems the direction things seem to be going, to me. I just wish she had been a better and more understanding friend to him. The sacrifices he's endured, the things he has been forced to go through, the betrayals and manipulations and infighting- and the complete thanklessness on the part of those he will save. Well, it makes me very sympathetic. He is the savior of the world and a good man.

 

Latra and LTT will get it right this time, because they were friends first.

[Ian Ohlander]

I'm not sure where anyone is getting Egwene being somehow "rehabilitated" in the first chapter of AMOL. She's the same person she's always been. Intelligent and quick minded, able to respond swiftly and decisively to a problem in an effective and practical way that doesn't leave options on the table. But: she has great difficulty seeing a problem though eyes other than her own.

 

You see both sides of Egwene in the prologue.

 

On the one hand, her linking with Nynaeve is totally in character. There is a problem, Nynaeve is going to be more effectively at handling the problem than Egwene would be, so Egwene supports Nynaeve. This is the same sort of thinking on Egwene's part that led to Egwene gathering up a circle when the Seanchan attacked, to taking a Red sister as her Keeper, building the alliance with the Wise Ones and Windfinders, etc. And we see that she did have some research done at one point or another, which also fits in with Egwene's character.

 

The other side of Egwene is there too. While she consents that there may be a scenario in which the Seals need to be broken, she feels that as the Watcher of the Seals it's her right to be the one to make that choice. That's a right that she has not earned – to put it bluntly, she had no idea where the Seals were that she was supposed to be watching, and Rand has all the surviving Seals at this point. Plus, you know, they were Rand's (Lews Therin's) Seals in the first place. While it might well be the best thing for Egwene to have them, for reasons ranging from practicality to prophecy, she has no specific right to them beyond the claim that her office makes.

The larger gaffe on Egwene's part comes earlier in her conversation with Elayne.

 

“You have a different perspective on him than I. Tell me what you think of this letter. I might not send it to him. I haven’t decided yet.”

“The tone is . . . forceful,” Elayne noted.

“He doesn’t seem to respond to anything else.”

 

While it shows some forward progression with Egwene – asking a friend and close ally for an opinion – it also shows that she's failed to learn the most important lesson of all when it comes to dealing with the Dragon: Rand does not respond well to intimidation. There's not a single person in the story that's been able to get what they want from Rand by intimidation. People that have tried to intimidate Rand have sometimes even lived to regret their mistake. Rand can and will accept people who'll disagree with him, so long as they're willing to work with him.

 

So, based on the first chapter, I'd say that Egwene in the first chapter is the same character that she's always been. Brilliant and good intentioned, but severely lacking in ability to see the world from other perspectives.

 

I think the impression is that TOM Egwene was set up be antagonistic toward Rand. To many of us, she became profoundly irritating. Bull headed in her refusal to recognize that she did not know everything, that the Dragon might be right, or that the Dragon Reborn is the creators champion, not the WT or her specifically, playing at politics instead of seeming to not do anything to stem the invasions all across the borderlands. She doesn't seem to recognize that Taveren effects are not Rand's will effects, but the will of the freaking pattern. If the pattern helps a person to support Rand, that means its the will of the universe and shoudl not not to be brushed off lightly.

 

But in chap 1 you see a much more intelligent and reasonable Egwene. You see she's been researching the seals, and now there is less doubt she may have sent help to the borderlands. The retconning is cludgy and ignores her actions of TOM. In short, she seems schizophrenic in regard to her thoughts on Rand.

 

That being said, the character is consistant enough, as you point out. And your observation regard the lessons she hasn't learned is spot on. Intimidation is a fools game and it's surprising she hasn't gotten that point.

[mjasghar786]

Please try to justify how she uses her superior TAR ability to bully nyneave - no different to physical bullying IMO

[fionwe1987]

That being said, the character is consistant enough, as you point out. And your observation regard the lessons she hasn't learned is spot on. Intimidation is a fools game and it's surprising she hasn't gotten that point.

I'll give a longer reply to your earlier post later. But as to this point... please go read her discussion with Ferane on how to handle Rand, which happened in tGS. There, Brandon had her state that trying to force Rand to do anything was pointless.

 

And intimidation never has been Egwene's tactic. Her way is to impress. Whether with her calm demeanor, or with her sense, or anything else.

 

ETA: Good that someone brought that up, by the way. Yes, she does use intimidation against Nynaeve in that one instance in TAR.

[Amandera]

That being said, the character is consistant enough, as you point out. And your observation regard the lessons she hasn't learned is spot on. Intimidation is a fools game and it's surprising she hasn't gotten that point.

I'll give a longer reply to your earlier post later. But as to this point... please go read her discussion with Ferane on how to handle Rand, which happened in tGS. There, Brandon had her state that trying to force Rand to do anything was pointless.

 

And intimidation never has been Egwene's tactic. Her way is to impress. Whether with her calm demeanor, or with her sense, or anything else.

 

ETA: Good that someone brought that up, by the way. Yes, she does use intimidation against Nynaeve in that one instance in TAR.

That's another inconsistency with Egwene. She always regarded -like pretty much every major female character (except Moiraine at the very end), I might add- Rand as a stubborn fool who doesn't know what he is doing. Give the guy a break, he's been right every step of the way.

[MasterAblar]

That being said, the character is consistant enough, as you point out. And your observation regard the lessons she hasn't learned is spot on. Intimidation is a fools game and it's surprising she hasn't gotten that point.

I'll give a longer reply to your earlier post later. But as to this point... please go read her discussion with Ferane on how to handle Rand, which happened in tGS. There, Brandon had her state that trying to force Rand to do anything was pointless.

 

And intimidation never has been Egwene's tactic. Her way is to impress. Whether with her calm demeanor, or with her sense, or anything else.

 

ETA: Good that someone brought that up, by the way. Yes, she does use intimidation against Nynaeve in that one instance in TAR.

That's another inconsistency with Egwene. She always regarded -like pretty much every major female character (except Moiraine at the very end), I might add- Rand as a stubborn fool who doesn't know what he is doing. Give the guy a break, he's been right every step of the way.

 

I wouldn't say every step. But overall he's done quite well, yes.

[Ian Ohlander]

I'll give a longer reply to your earlier post later. But as to this point... please go read her discussion with Ferane on how to handle Rand, which happened in tGS. There, Brandon had her state that trying to force Rand to do anything was pointless.

 

That is indeed a valid point. I loved everything she said in that discussion. That was what I praised her for earlier when I mentioned her passive resistance and bringing sisters to her side with thoughts like that. I mean, I didn't mention this particular conversation, but I was refering to nearly all of them she had with the sisters (with the exception of the one about the aging warder) while a captive of Elaida's.

 

And for the most part she doesn't use intimidation often (the case of Nynaeve being one, as mentioned). That said, this the pertinent part of chap 1 and it paints a different picture:

“You have a different perspective on him than I. Tell me what you think of this letter. I might not send it to him. I haven’t decided yet.”

“The tone is . . . forceful,” Elayne noted.

“He doesn’t seem to respond to anything else.”

 

Elayne clearly is thinking "forcerful" is the most charitable way to put things. So that tells you the tone of the letter.

 

But more telling is her response. “He doesn’t seem to respond to anything else.” That contradicts everything she told Ferana. Every single thing. When, in all her interactions with Rand over her entire life, all her observations of people trying to bully and manipulate him, did she ever in her life see this work? When did he respond favorably to forcefulness? Especially since she's already commented that Rand has changed both in her conversation with Nynaeve and Siuan (A Good Soup) and in her assessment of him at the beginning of TOM (that he could be trusted). He's not the dark man he was before and she knows it. And the man he was before would never have responded to "forcefullness" either.

 

It's a complete 180 from her conversation with Ferana and more importantly Moiraine in TFOH, that calm and reasonable were the way to go with him. Moiraine's manipulation is one of the things that drove Rand away in TDR, which Perrin called her out on. She continued to lose control of Rand in TSR and it was only in TFOH that she realized she had to go the other way, the lesson of Saidar and submission. Once he could trust her to trust him that he was a man and had the right to make the decisions he was making, he was willing to listen to her advice. (And incidently, it was during this time that Moiraine adopted this role with Rand that Egwene felt indignant for Moiraine. This is the loyalty aspect I was talking about. It seemed like she was willing to throw him over for her new friends, the ones who could teach her something.)

 

Tell somebody once, and it's advice. To keep telling them over and over again to make them do what you want is nagging. It is disrespectul of the other person's free will and right to make their own decisions. When Moiraine actually understood this and treated Rand with respect, he felt more charity and respect for her, and I would even say affection. Respect engenders respect. Rand's withdrawal from Egwene at the WT is an example of the respect he showed. He did not challenge her in her place of authority, as he plainly tells her. That constrasts with Egwene's challenge at his leaving (and she does speak of herself in the third person here):

"Rand al'Thor!, she said rising. "You will not turn your back on the Amyrlin Seat!"

That is not respect. What would you call that if Rand did that to Egwene? How do you think she would have responded to him saying the exact same thing? Would she ask permission to leave?

 

"Egwene al'Vere!, he said rising. "You will not turn your back on the Dragon Reborn!"

I have no doubt that it would be called arrogance and he would be criticized for it. It would be used as a sign on his megalomania, no matter the stress he was under when he said it (as Egwene was under stress at the bomb he just dropped. And note, I do not accuse Egwene of being power hungry or megalomaniacal.) But it wasn't respect.

 

So it seems she's learned and then unlearned this lesson from the words she says to Elayne. It's right there in the text. She thinks that she needs to use intimidation. Maybe. If she sends the letter. But saying it's all he responds to? Makes no sense.

[The Fisher King]

driedraspberry...please consider visiting Tropes.com or any of the other authorized Tropes-Definition sites on the net and review what they have to say concerning "Mary Sue." Afterwords, I have no doubt you will see how silly it is to make a claim that Elayne Trakand is NOT the major Mary Sue of WOT.

 

 

Fish

[Hopefire]

I wouldn't say every step. But overall he's done quite well, yes.

 

IMO, the areas where he's made his biggest misteps have been in response to attempted intimidation. For example, shutting Moiraine out due to her tendency to try to bully him into accepting advice. Or more disasterously, when he decided he wouldn't be intimidated by the Tower Aes Sedai, leading him into the trap and the box. Nearly as disasterous was his conflict with Rhavin; it resulted in Mat dead, Aviendha dead, Asmodean dead, a ton of Aiel dead, and Rand himself would have died if it were not for Nynaeve's clutch save. The Pattern pulled it out, but it's a classic example of someone trying to push Rand around and Rand trying to show that he won't stand for it.

 

 

Egwene's views on Rand and her stated intent to try to be forceful and pressure him into line stem from how Egwene sees Rand. She sees him as arrogant and full of pride, and she doesn't recognize how far he's come. Egwene typically has difficulty seeing things from another perspective; her own perspective is right often enough and her charisma is great enough that it's rarely a substantial disadvantage; she's by far the best of the Emond's Field five at swaying other people to her own perspective.

 

People follow Perrin despite disagreeing with him because they respect him as a person to such a great extent; people follow Rand due to fear or for duty's sake, people follow Mat because he's quantifiably awesome, and Nynaeve is only able to rustle up followers for Lan because of who she married rather than her own qualities. Other people make Egwene's causes their own in a way that doesn't happen for Rand, Perrin, Mat or Nynaeve. But there are some people that Egwene can't convince through force of personality.

 

When Egwene deals with those people, she's at a severe disadvantage. With other groups, she can present compromises that she can convince them to accept - take her bargain with the Windfinder's and the Wise Ones, or her work in patching together the Tower again. With people like Rand and Perrin and Mat, that doesn't work, and Egwene's mental response is along the lines of "it's not me, it's them." Egwene has a strong tendency to see opposition to her aims and policy as arrogance (see: Rand), disloyalty (see: her reaction to her rescue from the Tower by Siuan), betrayal (see: her worries about Nynaeve and Elayne being potentially in Rand's camp), etc. When it comes to the people on her side she has an excellent grasp on the tools she needs to keep them in line. With people who are not willing to accept her authority she has substantially more trouble; again, she has trouble dealing with honest disagreement and opposition when she can't see things from the perspective of the other person.

 

So, rounding back to the original point: Egwene's normal toolbox for dealing with disagreement is empty when it comes to Rand. She can't make him fall in line. A compromise is necessary, but with Egwene unable to recognize the validity of Rand's position she positions herself to oppose him in the only way she understands how to oppose him.

[yoniy0]

please go read her discussion with Ferane on how to handle Rand, which happened in tGS.

It's precisely because of that conversation, in which Egwene admits to herself that she doesn't know how she wants to handle Rand, but also realizes that's not the point of that particular talk, that I find it so appalling that she wasn't ready in the least when he did show up, in ToM. I don't know who to blame for that, I just know I feel like blaming someone

 

But why the heck are we debating Egwene here? What happened to that thread on the general board?