CAUTION: Super Spoiler Prologue discussion; Leave the cops out of it :)

[nortune]

You see, that is where the nitpicking is coming in, when people spends so much time and energy on finding errors and faults, just so they can complain about it. It's the same we've had to listen to ever since BS took over. So while the material might be new, the complaints are the exact same, which makes them sound like a broken record by now. What people could do was to make another thread where they list every single thing they have an issue with, and discuss it with people who have an equal fondness of complaining and nitpicking. And instead leave this thread for actual discussing the details of the prologue, and not the prose.

 

I can't speak for anyone else, but these are not things that are found--they're tripped over. I don't have to go looking for them.

 

I can appreciate that it might be frustrating for you if you don't share the same concerns, but there are going to be those to whom things like prose and characterization and other things that fall under the "writing" banner are more important than they are to you.

[thisguy]

I get it. It was already obvious from what's written there. It just didn't really bother me. It's almost like how you'd write an essay, summing up what you've already said at the end. Hahaha

 

Brandon must think his readers are brain-dead. Consider this gem from The Gathering Storm.

Immediately, a ball of fire whooshed in their direction. Mat cursed, throwing himself backward and into Talmanes, narrowly avoiding the fire.

....

"She's not a woman, Talmanes," Mat whispered warningly. "She's an Aes Sedai. Don't think of her as a woman."

"I'm trying, Mat," Talmanes said. "But it's hard." He hesitated, then added, "Burn me."

"Be careful or she will," Mat said, tugging his hat down slightly in the front. "In fact, she nearly did that just a moment ago."

 

 

 

 

Do you... Do you see what he did there? Because she just shot fire at them. And fire burns things. Because it's hot.

 

 

More on topic:

I am kind of annoyed that Olver wasn't mentioned even a little. His last paragraphs from ToM

After Cairhien, Olver had sworn to himself that he would never prove himself a coward again. He gripped the large knife in two hands, knuckles white, then dashed out of the tent.

It was time to fight.

 

Well???? What happened?

Personally, I just think that's him trying to find the humor and wit that usually surrounds chapters about Mat. I agree, that wasn't humorous.

[NitroS]

Hmm... I hope so too [re: learning more of Taim's backstory]. I first suggested Taim had been raised Chosen after Winter's Heart came out (the extra chair and the three instructions to Kisman) and became certain of it by KoD, but this doesn't make clear whether the elevation was recent or not--I want proof I was right goddammit. *stamps his foot in a manly and adult display of intellectual curiosity*

 

So, in response to this, there is a line that I think may be indicative of the timing of Mazim Taim's elevation to the Chosen. Here's the pertinent section, from Moghedien's PoV:

 

 

Dark-haired, the man had the features of a Saldaean—a nose that was faintly hooked, eyes that tilted. He was handsome and tall, and Moghedien recognized him. "The leader of those fledgling male Aes Sedai? I know this man, Mazri—"

 

"That name has been discarded," Moridin said. "Just as each of us, upon being Chosen, discarded what we were and the names men called us. From this moment on, this man shall be known only as M'Hael. One of the Chosen."

 

"Chosen?" Hessalam seemed to choke on the word. "This child? He—" She cut off.

 

Taim took the name M'hael all on his own - it first appears in ACoS chapter 2, following his rescue of Rand at Dumai's Wells. If Moridin is being literal here, and the Chosen discard "what [they] were and the names men called [them]" at their ascension, then Taim wouldn't keep the name "M'hael" if he were just now being raised. If the timing of taking the name is indicative, then Taim became Chosen at some point during the events of LoC.

 

Which makes his relationship with Demandred interesting. You'll note that both Graeffalump and the Moggyrachnid express some degree of surprise at his elevation. Demandred doesn't twitch - it's almost as if he knew.

 

While Taim's mannerisms, survival, and channeling ability all suggest that he was a Darkfriend - perhaps trained by Ishamael - prior to the events of the main storyline, it seems possible that some significant change took place during LoC while Ishamael was offscreen becoming Moridin, and Demandred appears to have been in charge. Following tFoH, the Dark One's ranks were getting thin - over half the Chosen had been killed or captured, and only some of those were retrievable. It seems like a good time for the Dark One to start looking for replacements. Perhaps Demandred was instructed to bring Taim to Shayol Ghul during this period, to become the M'hael.

 

Anyway, all that is suggestive to me (though not conclusive) that Mazrim Taim was elevated to the rank of Chosen sometime during LoC. Nowhere that I saw in Moridin's "introduction" does he say that Taim is newly raised to that station.

 

(As a side note on the meaning of M'hael - I doubt very much that Moridin cares what Taim's name means. If it makes Taim proud, that makes him a little more predictable, and thus easy to manage. The Dark One also like sowing competition among his servants. So, giving Taim that name doesn't seem odd at all to me. But I doubt that it means that Taim has any kind of real authority over Moridin.)

 

i really dont see the whole chosen theory, forsaken were chosen in the age of legends for being the best and all have a unique role such as general, torturer, compulsion etc. As of Acos what notable accomplishment had mazrim Taim done that made him legible to be raised forsaken. Yes he could be a dark friend, alviarin was a dark friend in high power in the white tower she didnt get no raising even though i acknowledge that taim is farm more powerful then her. If rand decided he didnt want taim in charge anymore since he was still visiting the black tower oftenly it would have been a poor reasont o raise taim to forsaken what had he achieved? He got put in charge of training/finding male channelers and saved the dragon reborn at dumais wells. I also think the wording of from now on he will be known as chosen not 6 books ago from now on. Also if demandred was giving orders back in the path of daggers attacks why would taim not tell him to but out since all chosen are equal except the naeblis. Then theres the whole dashiva thing too that moridin would have known about.

[Suttree]

You see, that is where the nitpicking is coming in, when people spends so much time and energy on finding errors and faults, just so they can complain about it. It's the same we've had to listen to ever since BS took over. So while the material might be new, the complaints are the exact same, which makes them sound like a broken record by now. What people could do was to make another thread where they list every single thing they have an issue with, and discuss it with people who have an equal fondness of complaining and nitpicking. And instead leave this thread for actual discussing the details of the prologue, and not the prose.

 

I can't speak for anyone else, but these are not things that are found--they're tripped over. I don't have to go looking for them.

 

I can appreciate that it might be frustrating for you if you don't share the same concerns, but there are going to be those to whom things like prose and characterization and other things that fall under the "writing" banner are more important than they are to you.

 

Imagine that, people actually commenting on the prose and characterization in a piece of literature!! I mean come on, it's just fantasy surely the prose doesn't matter. ;)

 

In addition, nice one Luckers. You nailed It in relation to the time and effort. Further let's put this myth to bed that the critique has been equally pointed ever since BS first took over as Manscher claims. TGS and ToM were initially met with praise from just about all corners as the glow of plot and fan gratification burned bright. It has only been after subsequent rereads that the general sentiment has shifted. The writing quite simply does not hold up over the long term in many places. That is why you are seeing an increase in posters voicing their displeasure. Also funny that you just belw right past my "valid" criticism point. Apparently you defining "complaining" as anyone who doesn't agree with you on Brandon's work.

[Luckers]

i really dont see the whole chosen theory, forsaken were chosen in the age of legends for being the best and all have a unique role such as general, torturer, compulsion etc.

 

Actually Forsaken/Chosen in the Age of Legends were just any Aes Sedai who turned to the Shadow--no special skills required other than being able to channel. That being said, I do agree there would need to be specific reasons for the Dark One to extend that to a Third Ager.

 

As of Acos what notable accomplishment had mazrim Taim done that made him legible to be raised forsaken.

 

Well, we can be pretty sure he'd gathered and trained men for the Shadow before announcing himself False Dragon. Then he did announce himself False Dragon and bring a great deal of chaos and ill will toward Rand--remaining free for more then six months despite there being Aes Sedai hunting for almost all that time, not to mention one of the Great Captains, whom he would have defeated had Toman Head not happened. Then he secured the trust of the Dragon and got himself in charge of the Dragon's channeling recruitment campeign, solidifying a core Darkfriend group at their heart--irrespective of your dismissal of how easily that might not have been the case, he did it, and as they say results speak for themselves.

 

Beyond that, there are reasons beyond Taim's own achievements which suggest this--specifically that the Dark One was feeling remarkably dissatisfied with his Chosen by this point. He was forced to rely on them because they were irreplaceable in their knowledge and ability, yet they were fractious and self-serving, and the previous threat of their utter annihilation was no longer available.

 

He responded to this in a number of ways. Reigning them in tightly under Moridin, Mindbinding Cyndane and Moghedian, having Shaidar Haren go over their heads to directly interact with darkfriends like Alviarin--and, I would suggest, raising Taim Chosen. It makes sense, Taim is the nearest thing this Age has to an Age of Legends level of training that the Dark One could find. He is strong in the power, and has been massively successful in gathering and training darkfriend channelers.

 

So there is a need for a reforming of power, and Taim fits as closely to being a viable candidate as any Third Ager ever could.

[TootThatHorn]

i really dont see the whole chosen theory, forsaken were chosen in the age of legends for being the best and all have a unique role such as general, torturer, compulsion etc.

 

Actually Forsaken/Chosen in the Age of Legends were just any Aes Sedai who turned to the Shadow--no special skills required other than being able to channel. That being said, I do agree there would need to be specific reasons for the Dark One to extend that to a Third Ager.

 

As of Acos what notable accomplishment had mazrim Taim done that made him legible to be raised forsaken.

 

Well, we can be pretty sure he'd gathered and trained men for the Shadow before announcing himself False Dragon. Then he did announce himself False Dragon and bring a great deal of chaos and ill will toward Rand--remaining free for more then six months despite there being Aes Sedai hunting for almost all that time, not to mention one of the Great Captains, whom he would have defeated had Toman Head not happened. Then he secured the trust of the Dragon and got himself in charge of the Dragon's channeling recruitment campeign, solidifying a core Darkfriend group at their heart--irrespective of your dismissal of how easily that might not have been the case, he did it, and as they say results speak for themselves.

 

Beyond that, there are reasons beyond Taim's own achievements which suggest this--specifically that the Dark One was feeling remarkably dissatisfied with his Chosen by this point. He was forced to rely on them because they were irreplaceable in their knowledge and ability, yet they were fractious and self-serving, and the previous threat of their utter annihilation was no longer available.

 

He responded to this in a number of ways. Reigning them in tightly under Moridin, Mindbinding Cyndane and Moghedian, having Shaidar Haren go over their heads to directly interact with darkfriends like Alviarin--and, I would suggest, raising Taim Chosen. It makes sense, Taim is the nearest thing this Age has to an Age of Legends level of training that the Dark One could find. He is strong in the power, and has been massively successful in gathering and training darkfriend channelers.

 

So there is a need for a reforming of power, and Taim fits as closely to being a viable candidate as any Third Ager ever could.

 

And with all these traits for Taim, didn't Rand kind of plant the seeds for the downfall of the BT before it even began? He granted amnesty to any male channelers, regardless of any atrocities they committed, Taim included, which, with a little research on Rand's part, he maybe could have looked back and reconsidered putting Taim in charge.

[Ashaman Kovan]

Looks like I chose a bad time to be productive.

 

Is that what you think productive means??

[snooze1128]

And with all these traits for Taim, didn't Rand kind of plant the seeds for the downfall of the BT before it even began? He granted amnesty to any male channelers, regardless of any atrocities they committed, Taim included, which, with a little research on Rand's part, he maybe could have looked back and reconsidered putting Taim in charge.

 

Toot, You've got to remember that, up until the initiation of a black tower, the world wasn't exactly over flowing with male channelers. I mean, off the top of my head, you have Rand, Taim, and Logain (I think he was still stilled at that point, though). So really, Rand didn't have much of a choice regarding a leader for the black tower, unless he himself wanted to take up the position--which he didn't have time to do.

 

Edit: Just checked the following link, and unless I'm an idiot, it looks like you have Rand, Taim, Logain, a bunch of Foresaken, and the black-tower generated channelers. This is obviously NOT a comprehensive list (missing Ardol, etc.), but it at least makes me feel confident that I'm not forgetting an obvious choice for a Taim-alternative to oversee the black tower.

 

http://concord.wikia.com/wiki/Category:Wheel_of_Time_characters--Male_channelers

[Ashaman Kovan]

Good to see that the nitpicking has already begun.

 

Calling out Brandon on consistently not trusting readers to reach conclusions leading to this type of repeated blunt writing is hardly nitpicking. It's somewhat rare at this point for us not be sledge hammered between the eyes in a situation like the one above

 

It might be far more helpful SuperFade instead of sniping from the shadows every time somene makes a reasoned critique, to instead attempt to point out why they are not correct. Good luck on this one though(granted you may have been referring to one of the other comments)....if people don't get Nortune's point I don't even no where to begin. It's already a lost cause.

 

Dude, he doesn't have a real point. Sure, he didn't need to say "One of the Chosen" again. We got it, Taim has been made chosen. But he isn't really talking to us is he? He's talking to the other Forsaken. Driving it home that this isn't a temporary promotion, or a ploy to make them nervous about their spoils being divided etc.

[thisguy]

Good to see that the nitpicking has already begun.

 

Calling out Brandon on consistently not trusting readers to reach conclusions leading to this type of repeated blunt writing is hardly nitpicking. It's somewhat rare at this point for us not be sledge hammered between the eyes in a situation like the one above

 

It might be far more helpful SuperFade instead of sniping from the shadows every time somene makes a reasoned critique, to instead attempt to point out why they are not correct. Good luck on this one though(granted you may have been referring to one of the other comments)....if people don't get Nortune's point I don't even no where to begin. It's already a lost cause.

 

Dude, he doesn't have a real point. Sure, he didn't need to say "One of the Chosen" again. We got it, Taim has been made chosen. But he isn't really talking to us is he? He's talking to the other Forsaken. Driving it home that this isn't a temporary promotion, or a ploy to make them nervous about their spoils being divided etc.

Good point. No wonder you made full Ashaman, Ashaman.

[TootThatHorn]

And with all these traits for Taim, didn't Rand kind of plant the seeds for the downfall of the BT before it even began? He granted amnesty to any male channelers, regardless of any atrocities they committed, Taim included, which, with a little research on Rand's part, he maybe could have looked back and reconsidered putting Taim in charge.

 

Toot, You've got to remember that, up until the initiation of a black tower, the world wasn't exactly over flowing with male channelers. I mean, off the top of my head, you have Rand, Taim, and Logain (I think he was still stilled at that point, though). So really, Rand didn't have much of a choice regarding a leader for the black tower, unless he himself wanted to take up the position--which he didn't have time to do.

 

Edit: Just checked the following link, and unless I'm an idiot, it looks like you have Rand, Taim, Logain, a bunch of Foresaken, and the black-tower generated channelers. This is obviously NOT a comprehensive list (missing Ardol, etc.), but it at least makes me feel confident that I'm not forgetting an obvious choice for a Taim-alternative to oversee the black tower.

 

http://concord.wikia...Male_channelers

 

Not that I'm forgetting those things at all, I get what you're saying, but really it just so happened that his amnesty allowed it, and Taim being dark, jumped all over the chance, given that he was the only one that could. But it should have been fishy that he seemed unaffected by the taint. Also Rand pretty much allowed a monster to be in charge. However, since Rand ended up almost becoming one as well it makes sense, and it's all great for the storyline. It also ties in with him thinking he just needs human weapons, but with his revelations he would not have made the same choice I believe.

 

On another note, I totally get that people will criticize BS for some of the writing. We are critiquing the story itself and there is nothing wrong with critiquing the manner in which it is presented either, that is simply a part of the literary process post-presentation. However I would like to point out, for myself, I love the way Talmanes and Aludra are written, I got a lot of enjoyment reading their parts.

[mike hunt's here]

Can someone give me a link to the theory where Taim turns out to be "good" like Snape? The PC im on is too laggy to search.

[Ashaman Kovan]

This one?

 

http://www.dragonmount.com/forums/topic/68442-taim-the-good-guy/

[NitroS]

i really dont see the whole chosen theory, forsaken were chosen in the age of legends for being the best and all have a unique role such as general, torturer, compulsion etc.

 

Actually Forsaken/Chosen in the Age of Legends were just any Aes Sedai who turned to the Shadow--no special skills required other than being able to channel. That being said, I do agree there would need to be specific reasons for the Dark One to extend that to a Third Ager.

 

As of Acos what notable accomplishment had mazrim Taim done that made him legible to be raised forsaken.

 

Well, we can be pretty sure he'd gathered and trained men for the Shadow before announcing himself False Dragon. Then he did announce himself False Dragon and bring a great deal of chaos and ill will toward Rand--remaining free for more then six months despite there being Aes Sedai hunting for almost all that time, not to mention one of the Great Captains, whom he would have defeated had Toman Head not happened. Then he secured the trust of the Dragon and got himself in charge of the Dragon's channeling recruitment campeign, solidifying a core Darkfriend group at their heart--irrespective of your dismissal of how easily that might not have been the case, he did it, and as they say results speak for themselves.

 

Beyond that, there are reasons beyond Taim's own achievements which suggest this--specifically that the Dark One was feeling remarkably dissatisfied with his Chosen by this point. He was forced to rely on them because they were irreplaceable in their knowledge and ability, yet they were fractious and self-serving, and the previous threat of their utter annihilation was no longer available.

 

He responded to this in a number of ways. Reigning them in tightly under Moridin, Mindbinding Cyndane and Moghedian, having Shaidar Haren go over their heads to directly interact with darkfriends like Alviarin--and, I would suggest, raising Taim Chosen. It makes sense, Taim is the nearest thing this Age has to an Age of Legends level of training that the Dark One could find. He is strong in the power, and has been massively successful in gathering and training darkfriend channelers.

 

So there is a need for a reforming of power, and Taim fits as closely to being a viable candidate as any Third Ager ever could.

 

I agree that mazrim taim has the right to be named forsaken after all he has done now. But it will be interesting to see if there were actually any dreadlords trained before he was named false dragon since couldnt ishammael have done that as well. We also have the batltle of (forget the name maldon? with ituralde and the shadow) saying that dark male dreadlords were using portal stone to get the trollocs there so it could have just been taim loyal ashaman that have been changed or these earlier trained dreadlords. But your theory states as of acos that he was raised forsaken which i dont think he had achieved enough to be forsaken then and more just a high ranking dark friend (like alviarin). But like i said i fully agree he has the right and more right then any other to be named forsaken now. But keeping the name m'hael still bugs me as if theres more to it that we dont know since the forsaken names of cyndane and hessalam have such significant meanings in the old tongue. There are now 3 surviving forsaken that havent died in moghedian demandred and m'hael.

[Deadsy]

Actually it's valid commentary on the prologue. The point being made was spot on correct as well. Again it's a sad state of affairs when critique is branded "hating" or "whining". Someone quoting a section and quite rightly pointing out the flaws definitely does not fall under either of those categories(especially when said flaw has been repeated over and over). In addition where else would someone post their thoughts on this topic. What is whining is focusing on the poster instead of the actual text. Again if you disagree state why, calling out someone making a literary comment on a board dedicated to books just comes across as quite odd.

 

I mean how silly does it sound to be saying you may agree with the critique and yet even though it's brand new material you are tired of people judging it already? That is what one does when new material is released after all. You have to be able to differentiate between baseless complaints and valid critisiscm after all. If it was just mindless bashing I would make a point of calling that out. As is it's as if people take personnel offense to posters not liking parts of Brandon's writing/pointing out issues they don't see or have a problem with.

 

You see, that is where the nitpicking is coming in, when people spends so much time and energy on finding errors and faults, just so they can complain about it. It's the same we've had to listen to ever since BS took over. So while the material might be new, the complaints are the exact same, which makes them sound like a broken record by now. What people could do was to make another thread where they list every single thing they have an issue with, and discuss it with people who have an equal fondness of complaining and nitpicking. And instead leave this thread for actual discussing the details of the prologue, and not the prose.

 

No one spends energy finding faults just so they can complain about them. The thing that makes these details complainy worthy is that, without trying to find them, they leap out at the reader and distract them from the story. The thing that distracts me most is when Brandon flat out states the obvious, because RJ was so good at not doing that. Another is when he attempts humor. He is incapable of being subtle about it. I now abhor Talmanes. The explanation about his "joke" completely took me out of the story. And it was a sucky joke.

[claireducky]

So...is this the thread where we're talking about all things related to the prologue?

[Ashaman Kovan]

Yes.

[Mark Al Thor]

I loved every bit of it. And Talmanes ..... wow. Dont give up does he? Lol

[Barid Bel Medar]

So, it seems that Daved Hanlon has been up to some mischief. Anyone else think of him when the two Kinswomen were assassinated?

[SuperFade]

Good to see that the nitpicking has already begun.

 

Calling out Brandon on consistently not trusting readers to reach conclusions leading to this type of repeated blunt writing is hardly nitpicking. It's somewhat rare at this point for us not be sledge hammered between the eyes in a situation like the one above

 

It might be far more helpful SuperFade instead of sniping from the shadows every time somene makes a reasoned critique, to instead attempt to point out why they are not correct. Good luck on this one though(granted you may have been referring to one of the other comments)....if people don't get Nortune's point I don't even no where to begin. It's already a lost cause.

 

Because most of the 'reasoned critiques' are actually pointless nitpicking. The only valid complaints in my eyes are things that objectively contradict established lore, like the mindtrap section, or continuity issues, like Sulin being in two different places at the same time. Such issues are not only Brandon's responsibility, but also his editors too - the books are not a one-man show and it's extremely irritating how Brandon seems to take all the flack for it. It's hilarious how everyone is foaming at the mouth about 'dreamshards' and apparently unnecessary sentences when we don't even know how much of the text was written by Brandon and how much was by Jordan. The latter claim is particularly ridiculous when one considers how Jordan's incompetent editors allowed him to blather on for pages and pages about unnecessary trivialities.

 

There is an odd sort of myopia amongst the more senior members of this board, an arrogance that asserts that every problem with the later books must be Brandon's fault, because Robert Jordan could never have made such amateur mistakes. You seem to be under the impression that every single criticism of Brandon is 100% valid and that all the complainers are engaged in some epic quest to improve Brandon as a writer. But this belief presupposes that the problematic parts were indeed written by Brandon himself, and that they are actually problematic at all, which is subjective.

[Terez]

So, it seems that Daved Hanlon has been up to some mischief. Anyone else think of him when the two Kinswomen were assassinated?

 

Yeah, he was my first thought. But a channeling assassin would make more sense. And whoever the assassin was, they were stopped, maybe killed, and I doubt Hanlon will be killed off-screen.

[Barid Bel Medar]

So, it seems that Daved Hanlon has been up to some mischief. Anyone else think of him when the two Kinswomen were assassinated?

 

Yeah, he was my first thought. But a channeling assassin would make more sense. And whoever the assassin was, they were stopped, maybe killed, and I doubt Hanlon will be killed off-screen.

 

Ahh true, I still haven't read the full prologue, I missed the part about being stopped/ possibly killed.

 

Well, I agree, he seems to be too important for a random offscreen kill.

[Terez]

It's hilarious how everyone is foaming at the mouth about 'dreamshards' and apparently unnecessary sentences when we don't even know how much of the text was written by Brandon and how much was by Jordan.

 

1. "Foaming at the mouth" is hyperbolic in the extreme.

2. It was incredibly clear that RJ didn't write that, whatever you want to believe about the subjectivity of such assertions.

3. What really bothers about that one is that it very nearly wanders into crossover territory, since 'shards' are the basic building block of Brandon's Cosmere.

4. RJ wrote one scene in this prologue; Brandon confirmed today it was the Slayer scene (but Brandon had to add bits even to that one).

[Luckers]

Okay, now that the full prologue is revealed, I thought I'd spend a little time on jotting down my full thoughts. Overall I really enjoyed the prologue--a big step up from our previous pre-release material. Admittedly there were some things I didn't like, some quite deeply, but the vast majority I enjoyed in full. So, thoughts....

 

Slayer

 

Like

 

I pretty much loved this PoV. Loved Isam, the glimpses into his history, the sense of his personality, his pain. Indeed the chapter left me feeling sorry for him. I loved the Samma N'sei. After TofM I was expecting them to be monster caricatures not much different from Trollocs, but there was a three dimensionality to the Town, and life there that rounded them nicely so that they felt like humans might, in those conditions--set off beautifully by that short little comment about them not returning when the 13x13 go by because they obviously have strong feelings about it.

 

Thoughts

 

First thought was that its apparent that not all the Samma N'sei are Turned--so obviously some must be just darkfriends. Furthermore there appear to be Aiel fighters amongst the Talentless--darkfriends like Melindhra, or descendents of the Samma N'sei (the latter seems the most likely). I wonder if its possible these Talentless were the Aiel that attacked Mat, and maybe even were behind the murdering of the Tinker caravan... warn the dragon reborn there are a bunch on murderous, monstrous Aiel darkfriends about seems a reasonable message to a man in charge of the Aiel, but more than that killing the Lost Ones fits VERY nicely with Isam's comments about everything in the Town being a twisted imitation of the Aiel.

 

Cyndane was interesting too, in the position she takes here, the one she takes with Rand, and the way Moridin refers to her as still being punished and still holding her cour'souvra in Moghedien's PoV. Of particular interest is the fact that she seems to feel that she has the Great Lord's approval in what she does--but at the same time, feels uncertain.

 

And I do wonder what Moridin was up to--provided he wasn't just there to allow Isam to show the reader how badass he is, and if that was the case well fair enough--it was done smoothly, with elegence.

 

Dislike

 

Very little. A few clunky usages, mostly when Isam is thinking about hunting Perrin.

 

Leilwin

 

Like

 

Loved getting back in Leilwin's head, and seeing the struggle between her knowledge, her honour and her duty to the Empire. Her facing the truth about what she did in handing the Domination Band (whilst admittedly, was a little heavy handed) to the Seanchan was fitting with her continuity of character.

 

Thoughts

 

Where this PoV ends does seem to support the interpretation of the dream of the hard faced woman handing Egwene a collar and a bracelet of an a'dam as being Leilwin--though frankly I hope its a red herring coz I still love my idea of it being Fortuona. Lol. Terez will enjoy this comment. My other thought is that Leilwin may be in a good position to reintroduce Egwene to Seta and Bethamin (who, lets not forget, did train Egwene too during her time as a damane) which is a scene I've been waiting to see since CoT

 

Dislike

 

Fairly minor ones. The fake accent felt a little forced (much like Mat's elaborate plan in tGS, or for that matter his back story in chapter 11). One big one for me, though this is likely a personal issue, was Sleete. The whole role had the feel of a cameo of a much loved character that the fans are supposed to feel excited to see again--but Sleete is a pointless non entity that we were told--slopily--was cool, and told by Gawyn no less. If Brandon wanted that sort of a moment, why not have Uno do it? Or Hurin. Or Siuan?

 

Aviendha

 

Like

 

The whole atmosphere of the scene--horrified and couragous in the face of it--was nice, and developed largely without Brandon telling us that that was what the atmosphere was supposed to be, which was nice. I loved Sorilea's reaction to the news, but to be honest Bair stole the scene--it was fun to see her come out swinging again, given she has very much taken a back step to Sorilea and Amys since LoC. And the sheer practicality of many of her answers to the problems at hand were thoroughly enjoyable.

 

Thoughts

 

I'd be more interested in the Nakomi clue if it hadn't been so bluntly handled. Beyond that I look forward to hearing what Bair saw at Rhuidean.

 

Dislike

 

Some clunky and overly literal moments in this scene, which was unpleasent. In particular the way the Aiel analyzed Rand was a bit cringeworthy--Aiel Logic and the car'a'carn for idiots. And Bair's comment about channelers needing to be preserved did not feel like something she--or really any Aiel--would say in that moment, nor in that terminology.

 

Beyond that, is anyone else sick of hearing the Aiel talk about how Rand Jesus Telamon Aes Sedai Second of His Name has embraced death? Probably just me. Okay then.

 

Finally, a continuity error, and within a handful of pages. Near the end of the PoV when talking about who should go to Rhuidean Bair states that: "Despite what Kymer said, Elenar is not ready, particularly not to see... something of this nature." ... when in fact, it was Amys who spoke of Elenar: "Elenar of the Daryne," Amys said. "Her training is nearly complete" ... Kymer, in fact, never mentions Elenar.

 

Androl

 

Like

 

Very little, unfortunately. Emarin would have been cool except Brandon immediately had Androl bluntly explain Emarin's humour to the reader immediately after. Seriously Brandon, your readers are not idiots!

 

But yes, Emarin/Algarin had some enjoyable moments, and it seems relatively obvious that he and Canler are gay, and in that ever-so-cute early stage of a relationship, which is kind of neat.

 

Thoughts

 

One of worth: Where are the other Reds? In this scene it seemingly suggests in their talk of linking that they aren't expecting any help from the others. Have they all been taken and turned like Tarna?

 

Dislike

 

Practically everything. The prose is clunky and graceless, the plot literally involving Androl sitting and framing the nature of their upcoming confrontation with Taim to the reader via conversation to the other characters. Pevara has all the three-dimentionality of a cardboard cut out. All in all the PoV left me feeling like the resolution of the Black Tower is going to be under-developed and hollow, relying on the framing of Androl's past experience, his practical common sense as an everyday working man (a fact we are yet again beat over the head with through the man's leather fetishe) and all of it made heroic by Androl's noble concepts about the Black Tower.

 

If this is Brandon's 'Pevara-being-awesome' I'm largely underwhelmed.

 

Moghedien

 

Like

 

Loads of awesome revelations in this PoV. I'm actually liking revitalized Moghedien, post Winter's Heart. Taim is Chosen, yay. Taim is not Moridin, yay. I misread Hessalam as Heffalump--which, for a moment was so full of awesome that you have no idea. The Dreamshard (yes, the term is obviously a Brandonism, but I like it) was nifty in itself--burning water, screaming souls and all.

 

Thoughts

 

Well, firstly its nice to know Brandon listened to some of what I said. In this case I don't love his decision to cast the mistake in tGS re: Demandred demanding to be the one to kill al'Thor as simply an evolution in his character, mostly because it makes him seem dumber. But, that's the way Brandon decided to run with it, and so be it. It does seem to be setting up for a confrontation between Taim and Demandred, and possibly Moridin too in regards to killing Rand which may be interesting provided this simplification of his motivations doesn't rob it too much during its delivery.

 

I'm not sure where I stand on killing Graendal and putting her in a new body. For one thing the arc in TofM was way too poorly handled meaning this feels like insult added to injury--the insult of being made into an utter idiot so that Perrin could slap her down and play the hero, and injury that despite her incredibly compromised character she's now lost her body and her name too. Against that, though, I suppose maybe Hessalam might be able to stand outside the shadow of that idiocy, and retain some worth as a character in the story. So, yes, uncertain, but I am curious as to how she will be played.

 

Dislike

 

Well, the above probably touch on two dislikes, and in terms of Hessalam the ugliness of her new body seemed childish of the Dark One, and the degree of it seemed poorly thought out. Beyond that the normal litany--clunky prose, OOC exclamations that are made for no other reason than to allow another character (Moridin) to tell them what for, and that general sense that your nose is being rubbed in the page.

 

Talmanes

 

Like

 

I really loved this entire arc. Caemlyn fell! Yeah buddy! I was hoping for this, but didn't truly expect it. But finally we get some Shadow being badass again. There was a general sense of the destruction being wrought on the city as well, which was nice, and finally, last but most certainly not least, DRAGONFIRE!!! YES!

 

Thoughts

 

None, really.

 

Dislike

 

Some clunky prose again, and of course Talmanes felt out of character. Plus much of the dialogue was choppy and inorganic, but they're all most minor gripes. My major gripe from this section is that we again see Brandon depict a charcter dispatching foes in some overly convuluted way after which another character describes for us how awesome he is. When will Brandon learn this is not the way to make a character cool? And I spoke in the Moghedien one of Brandonisms, and how I like Dreamshard--well, I loathed 'Dreadbane'. Partially because it doesn't fit linked to Myrddraal in a world with Dreadlords, partly because it being introduced this late in the series and never heard before is absurd, but mostly because of the uttely inorganic way it was depicted. It is one of the most cringe-worthy moments in the series to date.

[balefired-ed2]

Well, finished reading the prologue and this thread, so here are my thoughts.

 

The only parts that resonated with me were Isams scene and Androls scene.

 

Isams scene was harrowing, showing an example of what a society dominated by the Shadow could be. It really put into context for me the horror that the end of the AoL was, instead of just something we had known from more of a historians prespective. It was also extremely sad. Isam, for all the evil he has wrought, seemed more resigned to the awfulness than delighting in it, as shown by his recollection of growing up and wish that the young boy he saw would risk death in the Blight rather than going through what he had.

 

Androls scene really ratcheted up the tension in the BT plot. I kind of viewed it as what was happening in Caemlyn, with escape being the main goal, but it is made more intense through the characters realization of what is happening, rather than something spontaneous as happened in Caemlyn. The light side channelers are depending on Androl for leadership, and he is struggling with such a hopeless situation. This is shown through his loss of self control both in his leatherwork and his lapse in hiding his past life. In the meanwhile, some of his closest confidants are outwardly losing faith in improving the situation. Well written stuff here.

 

The Forsaken meeting was meh to me. Nothing was revealed or resolved, save the fact that no sane person can argue Taimandred anymore, which I had a chuckle at. The entire meeting was basically here is Taim, he is Chosen now, weep woop, the Last Battle is here. It seemed a waste of what could have been a highly captivating scene.

 

Lord whatshisnuts being abandoned by his men to go join the Last Battle just seemed to be a rehash of farmer whatshisnuts abandoning his farm to go join the Last Battle. Yawn.

 

And finally, the Battle of Caemlyn. I just stared at my screen for a minute trying to think of the first thing to type. Frankly, I was underwhelmed. Talmanes is a funny character who is competent, wry, stoic, and a nice foil to Mat. Reading this through his POV completely killed the tension for me. The only time where I felt anything close to danger was when the Band was marching to the city and the rest of the mercenaries were just watching them, which I initially thought was indicative of imminent attack. Instead, the entire battle read for me like this:

 

Welp, I got cut by a Myrdraal, so I am dead. Hey mercenaries, lets go fight Trollocs. Weep woop, at the Palace now, hey Guybon, lets go get the Dragons. Weep woop, hey Aludra, lets get out of here. Weep woop, blast a hole in the wall to escape. Hey I am probably dead now. The end.

 

It just read like a list of things happening instead of a character in a horrible situation trying to salvage something. For a comparison, read Ituraldes battle at Maradon and then come back and read the Battle of Caemlyn. Night and day difference.

 

tl;dr

Some awesome parts, some not so much.

 

Edit: forgot Leilwin and Aviendha.

 

Leilwin, could not really get into the scene. Did not feel any strong emotions.

 

Same for Aviendha. She had an awesome scene at the end of the last book, and this was just her rehashing what we knew, with no major conclusions or action taken yet because of her revelations.