CAUTION: Super Spoiler Prologue discussion; Leave the cops out of it :)

[Barid Bel Medar]

Wait, why would anyone think Egeanin wanting to help Egwene abolish turning channellers into enslaved pets a bad thing?

 

I have no idea what is going on here. Her wanting to be made da'colve is different.

 

(I only saw fragments, so I will put the two possibilities)

 

1. Egeanin isn't referring to slavery, owning servants and such, but the degradation of channellers turning them into less than human.

 

2. It is an unconcious thought. All of her life, when someone is indebted, they are made da'colve. It is most liekly her knee jerk reaction to acknowledging her shame and debt. Not any intentional hypocrisy

 

I'm not sure but perhaps people were under the impression that Egeaning was actually ashamed of the fact that lost the sad bracelet, and was going to Egwene to apologize for it. Which of course doesn't make any sense why Egeaning going to Egwene was, well, weird.

 

Well, surely that is a part of the shame, but it directly states in her PoV her views of the Seanchan system, and directly connects that to the reason why she wants to serve Egwene.

 

(I am not trying to repeat the obvious, I honestly don't know if I missed something here that says differently.)

[sleepinghour]

Even though we don't have the text for this, it has been confirmed that Lielwin is planning to become da'covale to the Amyrlin.

 

Here's the summary I posted on Theoryland:

 

Leilwin's POV

She and Domon are at Merrilor. Sleete brings them to see Nynaeve (who no longer wears a braid). Apparently Sleete and the other Warders have been "mothering" Nynaeve because she's Lan's wife, and Nynaeve is getting fed up with it. Sleete says that Domon is from Illian, but he could tell that Leilwin was faking her Illianer accent.

 

Nynaeve's furious at Leilwin and Domon for handing over the male a'dam to the Seanchan, saying one of them was used on Rand. Leilwin says she's lost her honor and is giving herself to Nynaeve. Nynaeve tells Leilwin to get to her feet and says she'll take her to see the Amyrlin. On their way there, Leilwin decides she now belongs to the Tower as da'covale to the Amyrlin.

 

I have to say that I didn't really like this scene, mostly because of the way Nynaeve was portrayed—Brandon usually does a better job with her than that. In KoD she was furious at Egeanin/Domon for handing over the male a'dam and thought they'd betrayed her, so her berating them for that was completely in character, but her saying Domon's entire crew should have died instead was not. And Egeanin deciding to become the Amyrlin's da'covale just because of the a'dam incident felt really contrived, too. At first Egeanin wants to give herself to Nynaeve, who has no interest in owning anyone, so instead Egeanin decides that she must now become Tower property. It makes no sense at all.

 

Also, whenever Sleete appears in the books, I'm reminded of Dr. Evil's speech to Scott Evil: "You're semi-evil. You're quasi-evil. You're the margarine of evil. You're the Diet Coke of evil." Replace "evil" with "Lan," and you've got Sleete. It was even mentioned in ToM that Sleete had fallen in love with a farmgirl despite being bonded to another Aes Sedai (...a storyline which sounds oddly familiar...), and here he's described as having long, dark hair and a stone face. He's like a watered-down parody of Lan created solely to make Gawyn seem more bad-ass for having defeated him, and here he comes off as even more ridiculous, acting like a "mother bird who has lost an egg" (in Nynaeve's words) towards Nynaeve because of Lan. Oh, and other Warders are apparently doing the same thing. For the love of baby Jesus Rand, stop adding crap like this, Sanderson.

 

Anyway...from this scene we can also deduce that Lan is still alive since Nynaeve holds his bond and isn't falling apart with worry or grief. So assuming it takes place after the ToM epilogue, it seems they did get some help at Tarwin's Gap.

[Barid Bel Medar]

 

At first Egeanin wants to give herself to Nynaeve, who has no interest in owning anyone, so instead Egeanin decides that she must now become Tower property. It makes no sense at all.

 

 

I think that is the point though. When does anything a Seanchan do ever make sense? It is just Egeanin being weird because she is Seanchan, I don't think there is anything wrong with how it was written.

 

Apart from that, I agree with what you have said, the rest was kinda strange. Perhaps (and it is a long stretch) you could put it down to weird-Seanchan-person PoV making it strange.

[MasterAblar]

Logain: I am looking forward to Logain's fury more than ever. I knew Taim was involved with the Shadow, but the prologue reveals and the Androl PoV really made me hate the guy. I really felt for the first time that Moridin and Taim were truly evil. I mean, not just your typical "bad guy", but truly bloody evil. Moridin's torture in the "Dreamshard" really drove it home, and I could feel the evil in the Androl PoV.

 

I sincerely hope Logain gets to kill Taim. Rand doesn't really deserve it. He ignored the Black Tower woefully, it was Logain who gave the Light Asha'man hope, who dared to oppose Taim.

 

What happens in Androl's PoV that makes Taim look so evil?

 

I agree about Logain, I hope he gets to take out Taim, although I still hope that Rand is going to do something about the BT. He said he would deal with it in ToM, so I hope he keeps his word.

[Barid Bel Medar]

Logain: I am looking forward to Logain's fury more than ever. I knew Taim was involved with the Shadow, but the prologue reveals and the Androl PoV really made me hate the guy. I really felt for the first time that Moridin and Taim were truly evil. I mean, not just your typical "bad guy", but truly bloody evil. Moridin's torture in the "Dreamshard" really drove it home, and I could feel the evil in the Androl PoV.

 

I sincerely hope Logain gets to kill Taim. Rand doesn't really deserve it. He ignored the Black Tower woefully, it was Logain who gave the Light Asha'man hope, who dared to oppose Taim.

 

What happens in Androl's PoV that makes Taim look so evil?

 

I agree about Logain, I hope he gets to take out Taim, although I still hope that Rand is going to do something about the BT. He said he would deal with it in ToM, so I hope he keeps his word.

 

Nothing really happens as such, no gruesome torture or fighting, Taim doesn't even appear. It is just the sense of dread and hopelessness of the situation and what Taim has made the Black Tower.

 

Edit: It wasn't exactly something in that PoV, more a culmination of everything, just that it really hit in this scene. I don't expect it will be the same for many others, I was in a strange mood.

[MasterAblar]

Nothing really happens as such, no gruesome torture or fighting, Taim doesn't even appear. It is just the sense of dread and hopelessness of the situation and what Taim has made the Black Tower.

 

Ah, ok, so just the typical life sucks/could this get any worse/we're all gonna die, BT chapter.

[b3arz3rg3r]

 

Btw what is a "yes ma'am" t-shirt? I really only wear Brothers Marshall as I'm on the program for surfing.

 

"Yes Ma'am" is a reference to "Married with Children". It's that episode where Al takes the Masculine Feminist hostage.

 

Yeah, I think I've caught up on all the reveals. Hope Talmanes gets better.

 

Talmanes: "Hi, there."

Guybon: "Talmanes?! I saw you dead!"

Talmanes: "I got better."

 

 

I couldn't help myself

[Vardar]

What the bloody hell is a dreamshard btw?

[Barid Bel Medar]

Nothing really happens as such, no gruesome torture or fighting, Taim doesn't even appear. It is just the sense of dread and hopelessness of the situation and what Taim has made the Black Tower.

 

Ah, ok, so just the typical life sucks/could this get any worse/we're all gonna die, BT chapter.

 

Well yeah, and no. It was that, but this one made me really feel it. Usually I am just like "oh yeah, bad guys doing crazy stuff, danger and such, it will be all good"

 

But after the revelations in the earlier PoV, and I suppose looking back at all the other scenes, I could actually feel it, rather than just read it, nice one, move on to the next thing.

 

Edit:

 

What the bloody hell is a dreamshard btw?

 

Makes Moridin a God over Dreams, that's why he is so good in TAR. Odium is pretty pissed off though, he wants back.

 

 

But seriously, it is half dream, half TAR, basically. In between, a bit of both. Where Moridin turns up all the time and drags the boys into. Also where Rand is in ToM epilogue (is my bet)

[Vardar]

Makes Moridin a God over Dreams, that's why he is so good in TAR. Odium is pretty pissed off though, he wants back.

 

 

But seriously, it is half dream, half TAR, basically. In between, a bit of both. Where Moridin turns up all the time and drags the boys into. Also where Rand is in ToM epilogue (is my bet)

 

So like that place Eggy goes with the stars, but you have a body? Damn I'm missing so much, what does that have to do with the story?

[Barid Bel Medar]

Makes Moridin a God over Dreams, that's why he is so good in TAR. Odium is pretty pissed off though, he wants back.

 

 

But seriously, it is half dream, half TAR, basically. In between, a bit of both. Where Moridin turns up all the time and drags the boys into. Also where Rand is in ToM epilogue (is my bet)

 

So like that place Eggy goes with the stars, but you have a body? Damn I'm missing so much, what does that have to do with the story?

 

No no, not that.

 

Moghedien thinks of it as not a dream but a "melding" of TAR and dream. Something like a little bubble off the side of TAR where both of them are melded. If that makes any sense.

 

Half dream, half TAR basically.

 

I think of it as a "dream vacuole"

[Vardar]

Makes Moridin a God over Dreams, that's why he is so good in TAR. Odium is pretty pissed off though, he wants back.

 

 

But seriously, it is half dream, half TAR, basically. In between, a bit of both. Where Moridin turns up all the time and drags the boys into. Also where Rand is in ToM epilogue (is my bet)

 

So like that place Eggy goes with the stars, but you have a body? Damn I'm missing so much, what does that have to do with the story?

 

No no, not that.

 

Moghedien thinks of it as not a dream but a "melding" of TAR and dream. Something like a little bubble off the side of TAR where both of them are melded. If that makes any sense.

 

Half dream, half TAR basically.

 

I think of it as a "dream vacuole"

 

Yea but what does it have to do with the story?

 

<--Kinda confused

[MarkDiLillo]

One thing I want to point out is that one of the only scenes we see of Demandred is when the DO asks him if he wants to be Nae'blis. I suspect that part was revealed to us intentionally. It is entirely possible that there is another "plan" going on above even Moridin's that Demandred is aware of and playing a part in. Demandred may very well be operating under Moridin only temporarily with the promise that he will be the real Nae'blis...or something along those lines.

[Barid Bel Medar]

Makes Moridin a God over Dreams, that's why he is so good in TAR. Odium is pretty pissed off though, he wants back.

 

 

But seriously, it is half dream, half TAR, basically. In between, a bit of both. Where Moridin turns up all the time and drags the boys into. Also where Rand is in ToM epilogue (is my bet)

 

So like that place Eggy goes with the stars, but you have a body? Damn I'm missing so much, what does that have to do with the story?

 

No no, not that.

 

Moghedien thinks of it as not a dream but a "melding" of TAR and dream. Something like a little bubble off the side of TAR where both of them are melded. If that makes any sense.

 

Half dream, half TAR basically.

 

I think of it as a "dream vacuole"

 

Yea but what does it have to do with the story?

 

<--Kinda confused

 

Well, it explains a few things.

 

This Dreamshard is likely the place where "Ba'alzamon" haunted Rand, Mat and Perrin in the first book, and Rand throughout the series.

 

Where Rand pops up and has a little chat with Moridin in tGS, where Rand sits to relax in ToM epilogue.

 

It is also mentioned with the Wise Ones and Egwene, however, I don't recall where.

 

It also could be important later on in aMoL, I am not sure.

[he who comes with a bong]

Makes Moridin a God over Dreams, that's why he is so good in TAR. Odium is pretty pissed off though, he wants back.

 

 

But seriously, it is half dream, half TAR, basically. In between, a bit of both. Where Moridin turns up all the time and drags the boys into. Also where Rand is in ToM epilogue (is my bet)

 

So like that place Eggy goes with the stars, but you have a body? Damn I'm missing so much, what does that have to do with the story?

 

No no, not that.

 

Moghedien thinks of it as not a dream but a "melding" of TAR and dream. Something like a little bubble off the side of TAR where both of them are melded. If that makes any sense.

 

Half dream, half TAR basically.

 

I think of it as a "dream vacuole"

 

Yea but what does it have to do with the story?

 

<--Kinda confused

 

Well, it explains a few things.

 

This Dreamshard is likely the place where "Ba'alzamon" haunted Rand, Mat and Perrin in the first book, and Rand throughout the series.

 

Where Rand pops up and has a little chat with Moridin in tGS, where Rand sits to relax in ToM epilogue.

 

It is also mentioned with the Wise Ones and Egwene, however, I don't recall where.

 

It also could be important later on in aMoL, I am not sure.

 

Maybee thats when nyvane asks if it is possible to pull the Panarch of tarabon into ta dream to find out if she is a dark friend. Amy and Bair i do belive says thats something evil that only the dark side used towards the end of power if i recall correctly, and thats what a dreamshard is? Other than being from WOW that is lol.

[Barid Bel Medar]

 

Maybee thats when nyvane asks if it is possible to pull the Panarch of tarabon into ta dream to find out if she is a dark friend. Amy and Bair i do belive says thats something evil that only the dark side used towards the end of power if i recall correctly, and thats what a dreamshard is? Other than being from WOW that is lol.

 

Perhaps, although wasn't that pulling someone out of their own dream into TAR? I can't remember.

 

But I don't necessarily mind the name. Pretty cliché-fantasy, true, but it makes sense. It is literally a shard of a dream.

[Vardar]

Also, so the Red Veiled Aiel thing is answered? So what are they?

[Barid Bel Medar]

Also, so the Red Veiled Aiel thing is answered? So what are they?

 

They are the Samma N'Sei, Eye Blinders. They live in the Shadow of Shayol Ghul. They are corrupted male Aiel who can channel, and have been bred and gathering for 2000 years. For Tarmon Gaidon.

 

 

On a different note, I am now inclined to believe Lanfear's plea's to Rand were genuine, if still a trap by Moridin. Even if Lanfear isn't inclined to exactly become a bastion of the LIght, I can definitely see her wanting to abandon the Shadow.

[Suttree]

Also, so the Red Veiled Aiel thing is answered? So what are they?

 

An Aiel clan made up of the "talented" aka male channelers. They are called the "eye blinders" and have perverted Aiel culture pretty much as you would expect(such as the only rtime they lower their veils is when they kill). There seems to be a good deal of them and even Isam doesn't want to look them in the eye even though he grew up in the settlement. At some point Mordin laid a beat down on a bunch of them and he is one of the few they fear. Also could be important to note that Slayer sees a carriage go by surrounded by Fades containing 13 female channelers.

 

edit: Barid got me...

[Vardar]

Yea see that pisses me off, a lot.

 

I still don't understand the logistics of retaining an army that large who would be nigh unstoppable if they were released.

 

Hopefully there's some, Rand is the only one who can seal or open the Bore BS released otherwise that's a pretty big plot hole. (In my opinion)

[Barid Bel Medar]

I also absolutely LOVE the name Samma N'Sei. It is suitably foreboding and awesome, it flows. (at least how I say it, and accent would make a difference, I suppose)

 

Yea see that pisses me off, a lot.

 

I still don't understand the logistics of retaining an army that large who would be nigh unstoppable if they were released.

 

Hopefully there's some, Rand is the only one who can seal or open the Bore BS released otherwise that's a pretty big plot hole. (In my opinion)

 

I wouldn't exactly say "army", there are a fair few, it seems, but I wouldn't say tens of thousands.

 

Thing is, it has been fairly obvious that simply killing everyone has not been the DO's goal.

 

The war isn't being fought as Rand thinks (thought, now?) it is, as we hear from Verin.

 

Mesaana thinks that the plan the DO is using is risky, but may just pay off big time.

 

Moridin talking about the Fisher King implies that Rand is key to the battle.

 

The Forsaken were not ordered to start blowing holes through city walls and raining Shadowspawn down on everyone. In fact, they kept their armies in the Blight.

 

Remember the DO has done this numerous times, and failed every single time. A few thousand years is nothing to him. Also remember the DO has only recently begun to weaken the Seals. He was sealed pretty well.

 

The plan is brilliant, really. In war, you don't simply throw every single one of your forces against the enemy and hope to win an all out slaughter.

 

The DO has literally spent millennia patiently building and plotting. Ishamael made sure civilization never advanced very far, constantly breaking it while the DO regains strength.

 

When the seals finally weaken enough, the DO wants to make sure it is done right. He wont gamble victory on the pretence that he should win. So he sends his Chosen to spread chaos and disunity, all the while bolstering his Shadowspawn, Darkfriends and his influence over the Pattern grows stronger.

 

Instead of every single nation uniting against the DO ( Against the combined power of Seanchan, westlands and Shara, the DO has no chance.) Ishamael makes sure that Shara is out of the picture (I suspect he meddled with Hawkwing's other expedition like he did with Luthair's) and that the Seanchan return at war with the westlands instead of against the DO. The Chosen spread war and mistrust, so that those that are supposed to be allies against the DO waste their strength killing eachother, while the Blight remains untouched.

 

The time comes when the Shadow can no longer be ignored, and the DO is ready to send his full might against the war-torn people, a huge blow that is absolutely unstoppable.

 

I think the Great Captains would approve.

[Neophyte]

Hmm... I hope so too [re: learning more of Taim's backstory]. I first suggested Taim had been raised Chosen after Winter's Heart came out (the extra chair and the three instructions to Kisman) and became certain of it by KoD, but this doesn't make clear whether the elevation was recent or not--I want proof I was right goddammit. *stamps his foot in a manly and adult display of intellectual curiosity*

 

So, in response to this, there is a line that I think may be indicative of the timing of Mazim Taim's elevation to the Chosen. Here's the pertinent section, from Moghedien's PoV:

 

 

Dark-haired, the man had the features of a Saldaean—a nose that was faintly hooked, eyes that tilted. He was handsome and tall, and Moghedien recognized him. "The leader of those fledgling male Aes Sedai? I know this man, Mazri—"

 

"That name has been discarded," Moridin said. "Just as each of us, upon being Chosen, discarded what we were and the names men called us. From this moment on, this man shall be known only as M'Hael. One of the Chosen."

 

"Chosen?" Hessalam seemed to choke on the word. "This child? He—" She cut off.

 

Taim took the name M'hael all on his own - it first appears in ACoS chapter 2, following his rescue of Rand at Dumai's Wells. If Moridin is being literal here, and the Chosen discard "what [they] were and the names men called [them]" at their ascension, then Taim wouldn't keep the name "M'hael" if he were just now being raised. If the timing of taking the name is indicative, then Taim became Chosen at some point during the events of LoC.

 

Which makes his relationship with Demandred interesting. You'll note that both Graeffalump and the Moggyrachnid express some degree of surprise at his elevation. Demandred doesn't twitch - it's almost as if he knew.

 

While Taim's mannerisms, survival, and channeling ability all suggest that he was a Darkfriend - perhaps trained by Ishamael - prior to the events of the main storyline, it seems possible that some significant change took place during LoC while Ishamael was offscreen becoming Moridin, and Demandred appears to have been in charge. Following tFoH, the Dark One's ranks were getting thin - over half the Chosen had been killed or captured, and only some of those were retrievable. It seems like a good time for the Dark One to start looking for replacements. Perhaps Demandred was instructed to bring Taim to Shayol Ghul during this period, to become the M'hael.

 

Anyway, all that is suggestive to me (though not conclusive) that Mazrim Taim was elevated to the rank of Chosen sometime during LoC. Nowhere that I saw in Moridin's "introduction" does he say that Taim is newly raised to that station.

 

(As a side note on the meaning of M'hael - I doubt very much that Moridin cares what Taim's name means. If it makes Taim proud, that makes him a little more predictable, and thus easy to manage. The Dark One also like sowing competition among his servants. So, giving Taim that name doesn't seem odd at all to me. But I doubt that it means that Taim has any kind of real authority over Moridin.)

[Clouded]

Ignoring the rest of your post, as I do have not read the prologue or any pieces. But...

 

Which makes his relationship with Demandred interesting. You'll note that both Graeffalump and the Moggyrachnid express some degree of surprise at his elevation. Demandred doesn't twitch - it's almost as if he knew.

 

Best names ever.

[nortune]

Dark-haired, the man had the features of a Saldaean—a nose that was faintly hooked, eyes that tilted. He was handsome and tall, and Moghedien recognized him. "The leader of those fledgling male Aes Sedai? I know this man, Mazri—"

 

"That name has been discarded," Moridin said. "Just as each of us, upon being Chosen, discarded what we were and the names men called us. From this moment on, this man shall be known only as M'Hael. One of the Chosen."

 

"Chosen?" Hessalam seemed to choke on the word. "This child? He—" She cut off.

 

So Sanderson continues his irritating habit of so often writing one sentence too many. "One of the chosen." OK, thanks for the inclusion of that too-frank bit of writing to make it clearer for us what wasn't already implied by the preceding sentence.

 

If that sounds like an overreaction to a small excerpt, I only notice this as just another of countless examples of this sort of thing that has been around in his earlier stuff but hasn't really ever gotten better.

 

Just try it: Remove the offending sentence. The whole thing then flows so much better.

 

Edit: I want to read this prologue. Looks like I chose a bad time to be productive.

[Sid]

Which makes his relationship with Demandred interesting. You'll note that both Graeffalump and the Moggyrachnid express some degree of surprise at his elevation. Demandred doesn't twitch - it's almost as if he knew.

Best names ever.

I have to agree, with both quotes