Could Egwene turn from the light?

[thisguy]

Ok.

By the way, the Silmarillion is about as epic as fantasy gets. Bye.

[Thrasymachus]

The bore has to be sealed up just as good as it was prior to the AoL sometime far enough before the AoL that nobody remembers that its ever been opened. The Creator doesn't do stuff like patching holes in his creations, in fact, there's every indication that He doesn't care if the Dark One breaks free here and wrecks the place, he'll just go on and make another world. Therefore, the power to seal up the bore just as good as it was prior to the AoL has to be within the power of the people, places and things within the Pattern. If not at the end of the Third Age, the Last Battle, then when? If the bore's not gonna be sealed here, the wtf are we all reading this series for? Nobody said the sealing has to be perfect, it just has to be just as good as it was prior to the AoL, and it was mentioned that there was already a thinness in the Pattern there, so yeah, not perfect, big deal.

 

There is no evidence that the Dark One makes an appearance in every Age, or that he's released multiple times in every turning. What we know is that he's released and imperfectly re-sealed in the 2nd Age, that he has to be perfectly resealed prior to the AoL, that time is circular, so the 3rd Age is prior to (as well as being immediately after), the 2nd Age, and that the predominant crisis of the 3rd Age is to figure out how to permanently re-seal the DO and that it will end in what is being called through prophecy, "The Last Battle." From a literary perspective, that's more than enough evidence that Rand's gonna permanently re-seal the DO so it'll be like it was prior to the AoL. If the idea was to have Rand's efforts result in an imperfect seal, then not only is a lot of prophecy bunk, but there's no reason to write or read 13 encyclopedia-length tomes about it.

[Mr Ares]

To those who say Latra was right, you're incorrect because as soon as her plan proved impossible to carry out within the time constraints they had, LTT's plan was all that was left. Flawed plan or not it was all they had and yet she opposed it all the way to the bitter end and the subsequent breaking. Yet LTT never once opposed Latra's plan he assisted with it until he had no choice but to commit himself and his 100 companions on the strike at SG. If LTT doesn't strike at SG, the light loses, it's as simple as that. You can debate the merits of his plan with hindsight, but given there were two plans on the table and one of them was impossible to carry out in time to save them all, anyone opposing the other plan is condemning them all to destruction.

If Latra hadn't opposed LTT, the women would have gone as insane as the men. Her opposition might have been misguided, but ultimately it proved to be the correct choice. Had she not taken the stand she did, things would have been much, much worse. Also, it is worth bearing in mind that it is only by a fluke that LTT's strike actually helped the Light. The Light's forces were at risk of being overrun if any of the three major offensives they were faced with broke through - LTT's plan did absolutely nothing to counter those major offensives. It dealt only with Shai'tan and the sealing of the Bore, not the armies that the Shadow had already amassed. If he hadn't caught thirteen of the Shadow's highest ranking people, then the Light would likely still have lost.

 

You're free to oppose something you deem risky but as soon as that risk is outweighed by the consequences of not acting you forget your prior opinions and back it. This is not about what happened after, it's about the idea of opposing your only method of salvation even when there is no other choice. In this way if Egwene follows suit, she'll condemn them all. If she wants to oppose Rand she needs to put an alternative on the table and it needs to be viable enough to be considered. It's no good going to Merrilor and saying, I oppose the breaking of the seals, we should wait until another plan presents itself. That plan may never materialise and you've then given the Shadow all the advantage.

For Egwene to put forward an alternative, first Rand has to put forward a plan. He hasn't yet, because he doesn't have a plan. He has an idea - break the seals. That's not enough.

 

Did you even understand what my point was? At all? There was no other option once Latra's plan was impossible, if they don't strike at SG, they lose, the Dark wins, that's it, there are no second chances, no miracle cures, they do nothing the dark wins. So really what you're advocating is that the taint on Saidin is worse than the Dark winning.

Of course I understood your point. Did you understand mine? Saying if they don't strike at SG they lose is all well and good, but given the plan they had, and the situation they faced, strike or not, they still lose. LTT's plan did nothing to stop the Shadow's armies breaking through, overrunning the Light's forces, conquering the world, and then re-drilling the Bore in order to get their promised immortality. That they had any sort of victory is due to a fluke, not a part of LTT's plan. As for whether or not Latra should support LTT, as we saw there are several possible options. Doing nothing might be the worst option, but Latra getting on board with LTT's plan would be nearly as bad. LTT carrying out his plan without the female AS was a better result than if he had acted with them. Even if she opposed him for the wrong reasons, she still did the right thing. If you argue from the point of view of what we know, Latra was right as she stopped the Breaking being much, much worse. If we argue from the point of view of what they know, LTT's plan did nothing to stop the threat they were faced with. It was a commitment of resources to a side show. So she was still right to oppose it, because it could not bring victory. Whichever way you look at it, LTT's plan was deeply flawed, and LPD made the right choice.

 

People comparing egwene to lanfear. Now i have heard everything. This thread seems to be more about what people wished to see happened rather than reality. Truth of the matter is lanfear was a power hungry trollop whereas egwene is someone who actually decided to have a red as her keeper.

Nothing demonstrates a lack of power hunger like electing a Red as your Keeper.

[TristanWebb]

I think if the Forsaken had tried early on, Egwene could of been turned pretty easy. If Halima had of wanted her turned she probably could of done it but it would of been harder at that point. Egwene changes hats very quickly, put a little breaking on her and convince her that the DO is what all the cool kids are following and she would of been more devoted to him than Ishmael. Now she is too AS for it to happen.

[Kahsm]

I think if the Forsaken had tried early on, Egwene could of been turned pretty easy. If Halima had of wanted her turned she probably could of done it but it would of been harder at that point. Egwene changes hats very quickly, put a little breaking on her and convince her that the DO is what all the cool kids are following and she would of been more devoted to him than Ishmael. Now she is too AS for it to happen.

 

Except for that whole thing about her promising to save Rand back at the start of book 2 before they split up from the blight border. I suppose if she was convinced the shadow was the only way to do that, it may have led her astray, but only until she realized better (assuming she wasn't quickly 13x13ed or something). There's nothing, and there never has been anything, in her character to suggest she would willingly go shadow. It is counter to _all_ of her personal goals and ambitions.

 

Remember her Accepted's test, where she decides to save Rand from the WT? Yeah, actions and words both, can't really beat that.

 

Anyway, Suttree's been doing a good job, should listen to him (on this). I've been busy lately, but couldn't let this stand!

[BFG]

This is a long post guys, sorry (problem when joing the discussion late).

 

... Lastly your point about her being bling to the negative aspects of her faction rings hollow. She has called them "fools" and says they must reform. She is even arguing for less of a hold on the world which runs counter to yoru claims of power. ToM

"The world as it was cannot be ours any longer," Egwene said softly, not wanting the Wise Ones to overhear. "Was it ever? The Black Tower bonds Aes Sedai, the Aiel no longer revere us, the Windfinders have hidden their best channelers from us for centuries and are becoming increasingly belligerent. If we try to hold too tightly to all of this, we will either become tyrants or fools, depending upon how successful we are. I accept neither title.

 

Slightly disingenuous, continue the quote... :)

 

ToM

"The world as it was cannot be ours any longer," Egwene said softly, not wanting the Wise Ones to overhear. "Was it ever? The Black Tower bonds Aes Sedai, the Aiel no longer revere us, the Windfinders have hidden their best channelers from us for centuries and are becoming increasingly belligerent. If we try to hold too tightly to all of this, we will either become tyrants or fools, depending upon how successful we are. I accept neither title. We will lead them Yukiri...”

 

Although I don’t think she is power hungry, that quote could be used to show she is.

 

To those who say Latra was right, you're incorrect because as soon as her plan proved impossible to carry out within the time constraints they had, LTT's plan was all that was left. Flawed plan or not it was all they had and yet she opposed it all the way to the bitter end and the subsequent breaking. Yet LTT never once opposed Latra's plan he assisted with it until he had no choice but to commit himself and his 100 companions on the strike at SG. If LTT doesn't strike at SG, the light loses, it's as simple as that. You can debate the merits of his plan with hindsight, but given there were two plans on the table and one of them was impossible to carry out in time to save them all, anyone opposing the other plan is condemning them all to destruction. You're free to oppose something you deem risky but as soon as that risk is outweighed by the consequences of not acting you forget your prior opinions and back it. This is not about what happened after, it's about the idea of opposing your only method of salvation even when there is no other choice. In this way if Egwene follows suit, she'll condemn them all. If she wants to oppose Rand she needs to put an alternative on the table and it needs to be viable enough to be considered. It's no good going to Merrilor and saying, I oppose the breaking of the seals, we should wait until another plan presents itself. That plan may never materialise and you've then given the Shadow all the advantage.

 

Well argued

 

If she wants to oppose Rand she needs to put an alternative on the table and it needs to be viable enough to be considered. It's no good going to Merrilor and saying, I oppose the breaking of the seals, we should wait until another plan presents itself. That plan may never materialise and you've then given the Shadow all the advantage.

The point is Egwene already asked Rand to plan and he refused. Why would you think she wouldn't listen to reason if Min actually figures out how to seal the bore and Rand lays it out rationally. As for Latra she claimed LTTs plan was too dangerous and she ended up being right. As much as LTT saved the world the pattern most likely made sure the women were not involved so the world would not be destroyed in the breaking. Not to mention without Latra and her "Shadar Nor" persona the light likely doesn't make it out of the breaking.

 

He also said that he’d meet her at the FoM and strongly implied that he'd listen to what she had to say.

 

...I fully expect Min to have an answer(no matter how ludicrous that is coming from somoene who went to Baerlon Community Colleg), Rand to lay out his plan and Egwene to support him.

Don’t knock Baerlon Community College. I agree that if Rand has a plan and can explain it Eg will probably go along.

 

If Latra hadn't opposed LTT, the women would have gone as insane as the men. Her opposition might have been misguided, but ultimately it proved to be the correct choice. Had she not taken the stand she did, things would have been much, much worse. Also, it is worth bearing in mind that it is only by a fluke that LTT's strike actually helped the Light. The Light's forces were at risk of being overrun if any of the three major offensives they were faced with broke through - LTT's plan did absolutely nothing to counter those major offensives. It dealt only with Shai'tan and the sealing of the Bore, not the armies that the Shadow had already amassed. If he hadn't caught thirteen of the Shadow's highest ranking people, then the Light would likely still have lost.

 

Surely if you’re going to argue that with hindsight having the men only seal the bore and thus the taint only affects saidin that Latra was right, then by the same reasoning LTT was right to attack the bore and seal the Forsaken? Latra didn’t know of the taint, and so could be considered lucky that the women weren’t involved, by the same reasoning LTT was lucky the Forsaken were sealed. I also agree with his priorities. While the bore remained open any victories the light had would ultimately end up futile, closing the bore had to be the priority.

 

If you believe Fel's reasoning, the bore could not be sealed by LTT at that time. This means that there had to be some flaw in any plan used by the As of the time to seal the bore. As for the present age: does anybody know if Egwene has set any of the AS to figuring out how to seal the bore? I have no memory of her doing so.

huh? the bore could not be sealed at that time? That's just BS. nowhere does fel say that. The flaw was using a plaster to heal a wound that needed to be stiched actually. That's what fel was trying to say at that time. Pity it took LTT 3000 years to realise this fact

 

This is mentioned later by other posts but... During the second age the bore is drilled into a perfect prison. At the end of the second age the bore is patched. During the third age the seals weaken and the Last Battle (of this turning of the wheel) occurs. Sometime before the start of the second age the bore is resealed perfectly, so that the next bore happens into a perfect prison again. So by that reasoning there is nothing that could have been done to seal the bore properly. Unfortnately they didn’t have the knowledge at the time to realise that.

 

If you mean that wheel is doomed to repeat the same cycle of breaking and sealing then you're right. My point is fel was saying in order to reach the age of legends the prison has to be sealed completely in the current age. But whatever LTT or rand does in this age to seal the bore completely it could have also be done in the war of power. At least that's what i think. When you and i read AMOL in a few months time and see the prison closed up only then we can say whether it was something LTT could not do in the previous age

 

If Fel’s right then even if it’s something that they could have technically done in the previous age it still wouldn’t have worked. So we may have to agree to disagree on this oneJ

 

I’m also going to come in on the side of it makes sense for Myn and WT to work on the problem separately for reasons stated by others. Eg did know that Rand didn’t have a full plan yet

I believe that saidin and saidar must both be used. I don’t have the answers yet

[thisguy]

This is a long post guys, sorry (problem when joing the discussion late).

 

... Lastly your point about her being bling to the negative aspects of her faction rings hollow. She has called them "fools" and says they must reform. She is even arguing for less of a hold on the world which runs counter to yoru claims of power. ToM

"The world as it was cannot be ours any longer," Egwene said softly, not wanting the Wise Ones to overhear. "Was it ever? The Black Tower bonds Aes Sedai, the Aiel no longer revere us, the Windfinders have hidden their best channelers from us for centuries and are becoming increasingly belligerent. If we try to hold too tightly to all of this, we will either become tyrants or fools, depending upon how successful we are. I accept neither title.

 

Slightly disingenuous, continue the quote... :)

 

ToM

"The world as it was cannot be ours any longer," Egwene said softly, not wanting the Wise Ones to overhear. "Was it ever? The Black Tower bonds Aes Sedai, the Aiel no longer revere us, the Windfinders have hidden their best channelers from us for centuries and are becoming increasingly belligerent. If we try to hold too tightly to all of this, we will either become tyrants or fools, depending upon how successful we are. I accept neither title. We will lead them Yukiri...”

 

Although I don’t think she is power hungry, that quote could be used to show she is.

 

To those who say Latra was right, you're incorrect because as soon as her plan proved impossible to carry out within the time constraints they had, LTT's plan was all that was left. Flawed plan or not it was all they had and yet she opposed it all the way to the bitter end and the subsequent breaking. Yet LTT never once opposed Latra's plan he assisted with it until he had no choice but to commit himself and his 100 companions on the strike at SG. If LTT doesn't strike at SG, the light loses, it's as simple as that. You can debate the merits of his plan with hindsight, but given there were two plans on the table and one of them was impossible to carry out in time to save them all, anyone opposing the other plan is condemning them all to destruction. You're free to oppose something you deem risky but as soon as that risk is outweighed by the consequences of not acting you forget your prior opinions and back it. This is not about what happened after, it's about the idea of opposing your only method of salvation even when there is no other choice. In this way if Egwene follows suit, she'll condemn them all. If she wants to oppose Rand she needs to put an alternative on the table and it needs to be viable enough to be considered. It's no good going to Merrilor and saying, I oppose the breaking of the seals, we should wait until another plan presents itself. That plan may never materialise and you've then given the Shadow all the advantage.

 

Well argued

 

If she wants to oppose Rand she needs to put an alternative on the table and it needs to be viable enough to be considered. It's no good going to Merrilor and saying, I oppose the breaking of the seals, we should wait until another plan presents itself. That plan may never materialise and you've then given the Shadow all the advantage.

The point is Egwene already asked Rand to plan and he refused. Why would you think she wouldn't listen to reason if Min actually figures out how to seal the bore and Rand lays it out rationally. As for Latra she claimed LTTs plan was too dangerous and she ended up being right. As much as LTT saved the world the pattern most likely made sure the women were not involved so the world would not be destroyed in the breaking. Not to mention without Latra and her "Shadar Nor" persona the light likely doesn't make it out of the breaking.

 

He also said that he’d meet her at the FoM and strongly implied that he'd listen to what she had to say.

 

...I fully expect Min to have an answer(no matter how ludicrous that is coming from somoene who went to Baerlon Community Colleg), Rand to lay out his plan and Egwene to support him.

Don’t knock Baerlon Community College. I agree that if Rand has a plan and can explain it Eg will probably go along.

 

If Latra hadn't opposed LTT, the women would have gone as insane as the men. Her opposition might have been misguided, but ultimately it proved to be the correct choice. Had she not taken the stand she did, things would have been much, much worse. Also, it is worth bearing in mind that it is only by a fluke that LTT's strike actually helped the Light. The Light's forces were at risk of being overrun if any of the three major offensives they were faced with broke through - LTT's plan did absolutely nothing to counter those major offensives. It dealt only with Shai'tan and the sealing of the Bore, not the armies that the Shadow had already amassed. If he hadn't caught thirteen of the Shadow's highest ranking people, then the Light would likely still have lost.

 

Surely if you’re going to argue that with hindsight having the men only seal the bore and thus the taint only affects saidin that Latra was right, then by the same reasoning LTT was right to attack the bore and seal the Forsaken? Latra didn’t know of the taint, and so could be considered lucky that the women weren’t involved, by the same reasoning LTT was lucky the Forsaken were sealed. I also agree with his priorities. While the bore remained open any victories the light had would ultimately end up futile, closing the bore had to be the priority.

 

If you believe Fel's reasoning, the bore could not be sealed by LTT at that time. This means that there had to be some flaw in any plan used by the As of the time to seal the bore. As for the present age: does anybody know if Egwene has set any of the AS to figuring out how to seal the bore? I have no memory of her doing so.

huh? the bore could not be sealed at that time? That's just BS. nowhere does fel say that. The flaw was using a plaster to heal a wound that needed to be stiched actually. That's what fel was trying to say at that time. Pity it took LTT 3000 years to realise this fact

 

This is mentioned later by other posts but... During the second age the bore is drilled into a perfect prison. At the end of the second age the bore is patched. During the third age the seals weaken and the Last Battle (of this turning of the wheel) occurs. Sometime before the start of the second age the bore is resealed perfectly, so that the next bore happens into a perfect prison again. So by that reasoning there is nothing that could have been done to seal the bore properly. Unfortnately they didn’t have the knowledge at the time to realise that.

 

If you mean that wheel is doomed to repeat the same cycle of breaking and sealing then you're right. My point is fel was saying in order to reach the age of legends the prison has to be sealed completely in the current age. But whatever LTT or rand does in this age to seal the bore completely it could have also be done in the war of power. At least that's what i think. When you and i read AMOL in a few months time and see the prison closed up only then we can say whether it was something LTT could not do in the previous age

 

If Fel’s right then even if it’s something that they could have technically done in the previous age it still wouldn’t have worked. So we may have to agree to disagree on this oneJ

 

I’m also going to come in on the side of it makes sense for Myn and WT to work on the problem separately for reasons stated by others. Eg did know that Rand didn’t have a full plan yet

I believe that saidin and saidar must both be used. I don’t have the answers yet

 

If it's gotta be a long posting, I like them like this. Nice one.

[Suttree]

Slightly disingenuous, continue the quote... :)

 

ToM

"The world as it was cannot be ours any longer," Egwene said softly, not wanting the Wise Ones to overhear. "Was it ever? The Black Tower bonds Aes Sedai, the Aiel no longer revere us, the Windfinders have hidden their best channelers from us for centuries and are becoming increasingly belligerent. If we try to hold too tightly to all of this, we will either become tyrants or fools, depending upon how successful we are. I accept neither title. We will lead them Yukiri...”

 

Although I don’t think she is power hungry, that quote could be used to show she is.

 

I don't see how especially considering the "play best" aknowledgment that all the groups will of course be looking to their best interests in the same scene. Egwene as Amyrlin would be remiss if she didn't think the WT was best suited to lead. Whether she is correct or not is a different arguement entirely. Of course I am guessing the land scape will have shifted even more radically after TG with Logain being a co-leader to the channelers with Eggy.

[MasterAblar]

What I don't get about Egwene is why she's completely dismissed the possibility of Rand being correct about the Seals. On such an important issue you'd think she would exercise the utmost caution. Instead she loudly declared that he's wrong and must be opposed, ignoring opinions that contradict hers. Of course she'll hear what he has to say at the FoM, but it's not like she has any choice on the matter. She's already decided that he's wrong, that's made clear in the book. If at least she had kept that opinion to herself (although skepticism would really been a better choice than outright opposition) it would have been alright, but instead she went and told everybody to oppose him. It's just not very clever of her.

 

The Light's forces were at risk of being overrun if any of the three major offensives they were faced with broke through - LTT's plan did absolutely nothing to counter those major offensives. It dealt only with Shai'tan and the sealing of the Bore, not the armies that the Shadow had already amassed. If he hadn't caught thirteen of the Shadow's highest ranking people, then the Light would likely still have lost.

 

Not necessarily. The Forsaken aren't exactly well known for working together. With the loss of the DO's leadership, they all might well have started fighting against each other. In fact that's exactly what happened. The 13 might well have been the most power hungry and backstabbing (coughGraendalcough) of all the Forsaken. Demandred, Sammael, and Bel'al were the shadow's best commanders but they may well have been leading those armies against each other after the sealing whereas the Light would have stayed unified. Dealing with the DO was definitely the utmost priority.

 

Nothing demonstrates a lack of power hunger like electing a Red as your Keeper.

 

Amen to that.

 

I don't see how especially considering the "play best" aknowledgment that all the groups will of course be looking to their best interests in the same scene. Egwene as Amyrlin would be remiss if she didn't think the WT was best suited to lead. Whether she is correct or not is a different arguement entirely.

 

Agreed, it's only normal for Egwene to want the WT to be on top. The Wise Ones and Seafolk undoubtebly want the exact same thing. Egwene wants her team to be the best. She wouldn't be a very good leader if she doesn't.

 

Of course I am guessing the land scape will have shifted even more radically after TG with Logain being a co-leader to the channelers with Eggy.

 

Pff, as if that's gonna happen any day soon.

[Suttree]

He also said that he’d meet her at the FoM and strongly implied that he'd listen to what she had to say.

 

Oh come on mate. You don't really believe that do you? Rand's mind is made up, the seals are to be broken regardless of what Egwene has to say. He antagonized her on purpose to get the reaction he did. In essence it was a perfect AS plan and Egwene fell right into it.

[MasterAblar]

Oh come on mate. You don't really believe that do you? Rand's mind is made up, the seals are to be broken regardless of what Egwene has to say. He antagonized her on purpose to get the reaction he did. In essence it was a perfect AS plan and Egwene fell right into it.

 

It's what Egwene is aware of that matters. Obviously we are aware that Rand has no intention of not breaking the seals, but Egwene has no reason to believe that. In fact she herself said that she believe Rand knows on some level that he must not break those seals.

[Suttree]

Oh come on mate. You don't really believe that do you? Rand's mind is made up, the seals are to be broken regardless of what Egwene has to say. He antagonized her on purpose to get the reaction he did. In essence it was a perfect AS plan and Egwene fell right into it.

 

It's what Egwene is aware of that matters. Obviously we are aware that Rand has no intention of not breaking the seals, but Egwene has no reason to believe that. In fact she herself said that she believe Rand knows on some level that he must not break those seals.

 

True, as I've said before though if Rand lays out a rational plan, Min has an answer for him and people like Nynaee overcome their doubts I see Egwene falling in line. Basically all that will have happened is she did the leg work just as Rand wanted.

[MasterAblar]

Oh come on mate. You don't really believe that do you? Rand's mind is made up, the seals are to be broken regardless of what Egwene has to say. He antagonized her on purpose to get the reaction he did. In essence it was a perfect AS plan and Egwene fell right into it.

 

It's what Egwene is aware of that matters. Obviously we are aware that Rand has no intention of not breaking the seals, but Egwene has no reason to believe that. In fact she herself said that she believe Rand knows on some level that he must not break those seals.

 

True, as I've said before though if Rand lays out a rational plan, Min has an answer for him and people like Nynaee overcome their doubts I see Egwene falling in line. Basically all that will have happened is she did the leg work just as Rand wanted.

 

No doubt, I'm sure Egwene will be sensible, it's just dissapointing that she was so quick to oppose him in the first place. I mean it's the 14th book and these people still aren't all on the same page. As Leigh Butler is fond of saying, *headesk*.

[Knivy]

Oh come on mate. You don't really believe that do you? Rand's mind is made up, the seals are to be broken regardless of what Egwene has to say. He antagonized her on purpose to get the reaction he did. In essence it was a perfect AS plan and Egwene fell right into it.

 

It's what Egwene is aware of that matters. Obviously we are aware that Rand has no intention of not breaking the seals, but Egwene has no reason to believe that. In fact she herself said that she believe Rand knows on some level that he must not break those seals.

 

True, as I've said before though if Rand lays out a rational plan, Min has an answer for him and people like Nynaee overcome their doubts I see Egwene falling in line. Basically all that will have happened is she did the leg work just as Rand wanted.

If he did it any other way, what would the WT's reaction have been? This way, they think he has a plan and need to convince him. If walked up to them and asked, they would be trying to control every part of it, instead of focusing on the actual problem out of desperation, as they are now. Or should be.

[Suttree]

Oh come on mate. You don't really believe that do you? Rand's mind is made up, the seals are to be broken regardless of what Egwene has to say. He antagonized her on purpose to get the reaction he did. In essence it was a perfect AS plan and Egwene fell right into it.

 

It's what Egwene is aware of that matters. Obviously we are aware that Rand has no intention of not breaking the seals, but Egwene has no reason to believe that. In fact she herself said that she believe Rand knows on some level that he must not break those seals.

 

True, as I've said before though if Rand lays out a rational plan, Min has an answer for him and people like Nynaee overcome their doubts I see Egwene falling in line. Basically all that will have happened is she did the leg work just as Rand wanted.

If he did it any other way, what would the WT's reaction have been? This way, they think he has a plan and need to convince him. If walked up to them and asked, they would be trying to control every part of it, instead of focusing on the actual problem out of desperation, as they are now. Or should be.

 

As I said earlier he should have got everyone on the same page. With Cads, the other AS sworn to him, plus Nyn and Elayne he had more than enough support. There was no need for all the trickery and purposely pissing of Egwene to oppose him. He should have set Cads and Min to working with the Browns. The greatest repository of knowledge in the world is at their fingertips going unused. Recall Min wouldn't even know she was on the right track if not for Cads' confirmation. Who knows what a sister who has spent her whole life in the library could find. The time for dissension is past and he had more than enough resources if he explained what needed to happen and why to keep things in his control.

 

Edit: Btw they don't think anything about him having a plan. All they know is he refused to plan. He said he needed to break the seals which were the words of a seeming madman. There has been zero indication from Nyn or anyone close to him that he knows what to do after and as we know of course he doesn't.

[Damer Sedai]

...I fully expect Min to have an answer(no matter how ludicrous that is coming from somoene who went to Baerlon Community Colleg), Rand to lay out his plan and Egwene to support him.Don’t knock Baerlon Community College. I agree that if Rand has a plan and can explain it Eg will probably go along.

 

As an aside, I always thought that it made sense that Min was the one to take on the Herid Fel philosopher role on Team Rand. Rand, Mat and Perrin learn how to fight like experts almost ridiculously fast (at least we get training sessions for Rand), the Elayne, Egwene, and Nynaeve move to full Aes Sedai (and Amylrin!) much faster than anyone ever has... so why shouldn't Min, who has years of personal experience seeing and interpreting the prophetic visions she sees, and how they eventually play out in real life, have special insight into other forms Prophecy? I suspect RJ intended it so, but on reread I couldn't find any overt hints, besides the success she has (Cadsuane agreeing with her on Callandor in TGS, etc.). A missed opportunity for the author, or perhaps he trusted us to read between the lines?

 

Like many here, I too wonder why Egwene doesn't have a team of Browns and Whites (and maybe Blues?) working on how to seal the bore... or better yet at least 2 teams, 1 to approach the problem without bias or other influences, the other to evaluate the basic framework of Rand's plan. Certainly, she is the only person in the world that has the resources to do both. Originally I thought that this was happening off screen, and was to be addressed in a Memory of Light... but given that we had specific scene of Egwene's Aes Sedai working on the problem of defeating the Oath Rod, and multiple mentions of Project StopTheWoolhead in TOM, the lack of a mere mention of Project PlugThatHole is troubling. I dont have a problem with Egwene's distrust of Rand's plan on the face of it, but I dont think she is being 100% reasonable there either.

1. Egwene main flaw, to my mind, is the her general dismissal of other Emond's Fielders opinions and skills. I find her certainty that Rand is wrong on his tactics certainly in character, albeit frustrating.

2. Rand didnt just tell her about the breaking of the seals and leave it at that ... he did talk to Nynaeve about it, and she agree to speak for him. Now again, I don't expect a mere framework of a plan to be enough for her to accept it, but the only reaction we get from Egwene is "tav'eren work" and "its good to get Nynaeve away from Rand".

3. If one stops to think, project PlugThatHole is going to be a massive project, probably requiring linked Saidin and Saidar, and highly theoretical work using the One Power to act beyond the physical world, resulting in a near miraculous result. If only there was someone out there with practical experience with power wrought miracles (cough, cough... Cleansing the Source) who has the aid of the the Pattern to make course corrections in fate itself, and that there were signs that this unnamed person was the only hope for salvation... And if only she had access to an ally, an Aes Sedai who was involved in this event to confirm said event... you get the idea. Again, not a reason to trust Rand blindly, but reasons to not dismiss his plan out of hand.

 

Furthermore, we can only guess why Rand didn't stay and talk longer, as we are not privy to his POV. It seems most likely that it was Aes Sedai style manipulation to get everyone together for a light-side jamboree (whats good for the goose, after all). But, why stay any longer than he must? Are we sure Rand was a supremely confident as he appeared? I have doubts. The Dragon Reborn shows up, and is immediately shielded (twice over), and guarded by 100 warders. Not exactly feeling the unity and understanding. The Aes Sedai certainly have their reasons to react to the DR as they did, but you think the Amilryn Seat would enjoy being shielded and surrounded by all 100 Illianer companions if meeting with the Dragon Reborn? And Egwene, your counterpart, but an old friend who was an ally last you saw her, asks if you have come to submit? And then questions your sanity and wants to have sisters check you out? Rand obviously has the advantage of a giant wave of tav'eren induced paralysis, but how long does such a thing last?

 

Obviously taveren not going to fix all of Rand's problems all the way up to the Last Battle. Maybe he had to say his peace and get out before the Tower changes its mind (perhaps the Hall might decide to supercede the Amilryn on letting him go free), because Fair or Foul, he wasn't getting a lot of warm fuzzies and maybe he had to brazen it out the get out, and finish off that list of six impossible miracles. Those orchards wont spontaneously generate new apples by themselves!

[Suttree]

2. Rand didnt just tell her about the breaking of the seals and leave it at that ... he did talk to Nynaeve about it, and she agree to speak for him. Now again, I don't expect a mere framework of a plan to be enough for her to accept it, but the only reaction we get from Egwene is "tav'eren work" and "its good to get Nynaeve away from Rand".

3. If one stops to think, project PlugThatHole is going to be a massive project, probably requiring linked Saidin and Saidar, and highly theoretical work using the One Power to act beyond the physical world, resulting in a near miraculous result. If only there was someone out there with practical experience with power wrought miracles (cough, cough... Cleansing the Source) who has the aid of the the Pattern to make course corrections in fate itself, and that there were signs that this unnamed person was the only hope for salvation... And if only she had access to an ally, an Aes Sedai who was involved in this event to confirm said event... you get the idea. Again, not a reason to trust Rand blindly, but reasons to not dismiss his plan out of hand.

 

But at this point he not only doesn't have a plan, he doesn't even have the framework of one as far as we know. All he has is the idea to break the seals along with knowing he can't try to seal it the way LTT did. Per Rand he needs Min to "find the answers" for him. At this point it is basically Egwene's duty as Amyrlin to question him, especially considering what his frame of mind has been and the atrocities he has commited recently. If you look at it from her limited view there really is no other way she could have reacted considering he refused to discuss things. Recall she didn' dismiss it out of hand what she said was, "We must talk about this," she said. "Plan." and he gave her a flippant response and bounced.

 

As for Nyn not sure why you say Rand has told her a plan and is having her talk to Eggy. As far as we know Nyn still has doubts and hasn't made up her mind...

 

ToM

"Yes, but the seals? That's foolhardy. Surely Rand can face the Dark One, and defeat him, and seal him away without taking that risk."

 

"Maybe you're right," Nynaeve said.

 

Elayne looked troubled.

 

I mean look, we know Rand is in the right. All im saying is things have played out in a realistic manner based on how he decided to manipulate her. We will see how it works out at the FoM, I just wish the light could get on the same page already.

[Damer Sedai]

But at this point he not only doesn't have a plan, he doesn't even have the framework of one as far as we know. All he has is the idea to break the seals along with knowing he can't try to seal it the way LTT did. Per Rand he needs Min to "find the answers" for him. At this point it is basically Egwene's duty as Amyrlin to question him, especially considering what his frame of mind has been and the atrocities he has commited recently. If you look at it from her limited view there really is no other way she could have reacted considering he refused to discuss things.

 

Recall she didn't dismiss it out of hand what she said was, "We must talk about this," she said. "Plan." and he gave her a flippant response and bounced.

 

That seems... an uncharitable description of what happened. I apologize for quoting the wonderful Leigh Butler re-read, as I dont have have my books here at work

 

"He tells her that in one month’s time, he is going to Shayol Ghul to break the last remaining seal on the Dark One’s prison, and that he will meet with them the day before and give them his terms. Egwene realizes this is what her Dream about the crystal sphere meant. He goes to leave, and she rises and shouts that he will not turn his back on her. Rand stops and turns back.

“You can’t break the seals,” Egwene said. “That would risk letting the Dark One free.”

“A risk we must take. Clear away the rubble. The Bore must be opened fully again before it can be sealed.” TOM Ch 2

Egwene says they must discuss this, and other things, like the sisters his men have bonded, and Rand replies they can discuss that next time they meet. He formally asks her permission to withdraw."

Leigh Butler TOM re-read Ch2

 

Note the denial by Egwene. Note the explanation on clearing the rubble - is that not quoting prophecy? THis answer which in the real world is quite inadequate, but in Randland is exactly what any Aes sedai would consider sufficient (in fact it sounds like almost everything that comes out of Moraines mouth in the first 3 books)

 

 

As far as 'flippant' goes, Rand is nothing but polite (and mysterious, which can be infuriating too, all will admit). Egwene is the one who demands that he not turn his back on the Amilryn. Also, Egwene wants to talk about bonded sisters, as much as about breaking the seals. Its not like her priorities are all on the final battle.

 

Atrocities? What atrocities has he committed that Egwene is aware of at this point? I must not be remembering right, as the only act bad enough to be called an atrocity on Rand's ledger is Natrin's Barrow, and I didnt think she was aware of this in Ch 2.

 

The plan is 1. break the seals in a month, 2. go to Shayol Ghul, 3. mumble mumble, 4. profit. Its a framework, outline, whatever. Its the sketch of a plan. We know that Team Rand is working on it, but we dont know how much One Power theory from the LTT memories he has put together. I suspect the lack of taking any detail of a plan on how to Seal the Bore is as much a plot device for the writer to not reveal the plan before the Big Event so as to no deflate the drama than anything. He is asking min for the key. After all, he didnt explain to Cadsuane (for us readers, anyhow) how he was going to cleanse Saidin in WH beyond "use the CK linked w/ Nynaeve". ITs one reason why Cadsuane is so awesome. I think, no matter our disagreement here, we can both agree on this: Why can't Egwene by more like Cadsuane? Anyway, if the readers just arent meant to know as I expect, not much point in hashing it out further.

 

You actually will note that in my previous post that I agree that Rand's statements are likely manipulation to summon the lightside forces. I actually agree that when they get together at the fields of Merillor, that this will all sort out. I suspect that things will go better in the month time, not just because the plan will be better flushed out (containing actually workable strategy), but the support of Min and Cadsuane will be essential to convince the WT and Egwene of said plan. (since they aren't from Emonds Field - j/k)

 

As for Nyn not sure why you say Rand has told her a plan and is having her talk to Eggy. As far as we know Nyn still has doubts and hasn't made up her mind...

 

ToM

"Yes, but the seals? That's foolhardy. Surely Rand can face the Dark One, and defeat him, and seal him away without taking that risk."

 

"Maybe you're right," Nynaeve said.

 

Elayne looked troubled.

 

But wasn't that before (again, quoting the LB TOM reread)

 

Nynaeve asks if letting the Dark One free won’t make it even worse; Rand replies that perhaps it will, but opening the Bore will not free him immediately, and it must be done while they are still strong enough to fight him. Nynaeve realizes she believes him, and says so; Rand is relieved, and asks her to try and convince Egwene of it.

Leigh Butler, TOM Re-read, Ch 15

 

Also, I believe that in TOM Ch 14 Egwene tells Nynaeve and Elayne about Rands plan, and they were not unconditional in their support of Egwene . If I recall correctly, Egwene's internal monologue was surprised that they both spoke in some support of the idea: it being better to fight the battle on your own timeline and all that. But since I dont have the books in front of me, this could be in error.

 

I mean look, we know Rand is in the right. All im saying is things have played out in a realistic manner based on how he decided to manipulate her.

 

Perhaps. I just find it sad that events play out so that Egwene is the Amilryn, someone who knows the core of him so well, and has blanket distrust

of anything he says.

Its probably because I really liked the way Egwene was with Rand at the end of TEOTW beginning of TGH, despite knowing he was a male channeler.

 

 

We will see how it works out at the FoM, I just wish the light could get on the same page already.

 

Amen!

[b3arz3rg3r]

Oh come on mate. You don't really believe that do you? Rand's mind is made up, the seals are to be broken regardless of what Egwene has to say. He antagonized her on purpose to get the reaction he did. In essence it was a perfect AS plan and Egwene fell right into it.

 

It's what Egwene is aware of that matters. Obviously we are aware that Rand has no intention of not breaking the seals, but Egwene has no reason to believe that. In fact she herself said that she believe Rand knows on some level that he must not break those seals.

 

True, as I've said before though if Rand lays out a rational plan, Min has an answer for him and people like Nynaee overcome their doubts I see Egwene falling in line. Basically all that will have happened is she did the leg work just as Rand wanted.

If he did it any other way, what would the WT's reaction have been? This way, they think he has a plan and need to convince him. If walked up to them and asked, they would be trying to control every part of it, instead of focusing on the actual problem out of desperation, as they are now. Or should be.

 

As I said earlier he should have got everyone on the same page. With Cads, the other AS sworn to him, plus Nyn and Elayne he had more than enough support. There was no need for all the trickery and purposely pissing of Egwene to oppose him. He should have set Cads and Min to working with the Browns. The greatest repository of knowledge in the world is at their fingertips going unused. Recall Min wouldn't even know she was on the right track if not for Cads' confirmation. Who knows what a sister who has spent her whole life in the library could find. The time for dissension is past and he had more than enough resources if he explained what needed to happen and why to keep things in his control.

 

Edit: Btw they don't think anything about him having a plan. All they know is he refused to plan. He said he needed to break the seals which were the words of a seeming madman. There has been zero indication from Nyn or anyone close to him that he knows what to do after and as we know of course he doesn't.

 

 

Again with that same dead horse. Unless Rand remained in the WT and bent them all to his will there's no way the Aes Sedai would work for his plan. And the little help the Aes Sedai may have been able to offer with figuring out his plan wasn't worth the time. Rand is busy he can't afford to stay weeks in the WT debating back and forth about the merits of breaking the seals. And we know that would have happened unless there was some major ta'veren influence. That's what always happens with Aes Sedai.

The tower library is completely useless in this regard. There's no book which explains how the DO has to be sealed. And Rand himself knows infinitely more about the nature of the seals and what went wrong the last time then all the Aes Sedai combined. Those imaginary Browns you see working together with Cads and Min would just have been busy trying to disprove the necessity of breaking the seals.

What is needed isn't books it is minds who accept the necessity of the broken seals and who logically reason out how the prison of the DO can be made as strong as the Creator originally built it again. And the Aes Sedai have those in very short supply.

 

As for Min not knowing she was on the right track without Cadsuane, didn't Cadsuane just confirm her findings so that other Aes Sedai, Beldeine I believe it was, accepted them? To Rand Min's word alone seems to have been enough.

2. Rand didnt just tell her about the breaking of the seals and leave it at that ... he did talk to Nynaeve about it, and she agree to speak for him. Now again, I don't expect a mere framework of a plan to be enough for her to accept it, but the only reaction we get from Egwene is "tav'eren work" and "its good to get Nynaeve away from Rand".

3. If one stops to think, project PlugThatHole is going to be a massive project, probably requiring linked Saidin and Saidar, and highly theoretical work using the One Power to act beyond the physical world, resulting in a near miraculous result. If only there was someone out there with practical experience with power wrought miracles (cough, cough... Cleansing the Source) who has the aid of the the Pattern to make course corrections in fate itself, and that there were signs that this unnamed person was the only hope for salvation... And if only she had access to an ally, an Aes Sedai who was involved in this event to confirm said event... you get the idea. Again, not a reason to trust Rand blindly, but reasons to not dismiss his plan out of hand.

 

But at this point he not only doesn't have a plan, he doesn't even have the framework of one as far as we know. All he has is the idea to break the seals along with knowing he can't try to seal it the way LTT did. Per Rand he needs Min to "find the answers" for him. At this point it is basically Egwene's duty as Amyrlin to question him, especially considering what his frame of mind has been and the atrocities he has commited recently. If you look at it from her limited view there really is no other way she could have reacted considering he refused to discuss things. Recall she didn' dismiss it out of hand what she said was, "We must talk about this," she said. "Plan." and he gave her a flippant response and bounced.

 

As for Nyn not sure why you say Rand has told her a plan and is having her talk to Eggy. As far as we know Nyn still has doubts and hasn't made up her mind...

 

ToM

"Yes, but the seals? That's foolhardy. Surely Rand can face the Dark One, and defeat him, and seal him away without taking that risk."

 

"Maybe you're right," Nynaeve said.

 

Elayne looked troubled.

 

I mean look, we know Rand is in the right. All im saying is things have played out in a realistic manner based on how he decided to manipulate her. We will see how it works out at the FoM, I just wish the light could get on the same page already.

 

Doesn't that quote just show that Egwene has no idea at all what the seals do? And if she still doesn't know, doesn't that mean not a single Aes Sedai in the Tower could tell her about what the Seals do? To me it seems as if the Aes Sedai don't know anything at all that could help Rand in this regard.

[BFG]

Slightly disingenuous, continue the quote... :)

 

ToM

"The world as it was cannot be ours any longer," Egwene said softly, not wanting the Wise Ones to overhear. "Was it ever? The Black Tower bonds Aes Sedai, the Aiel no longer revere us, the Windfinders have hidden their best channelers from us for centuries and are becoming increasingly belligerent. If we try to hold too tightly to all of this, we will either become tyrants or fools, depending upon how successful we are. I accept neither title. We will lead them Yukiri...”

 

Although I don’t think she is power hungry, that quote could be used to show she is.

 

I don't see how especially considering the "play best" aknowledgment that all the groups will of course be looking to their best interests in the same scene. Egwene as Amyrlin would be remiss if she didn't think the WT was best suited to lead. Whether she is correct or not is a different arguement entirely. Of course I am guessing the land scape will have shifted even more radically after TG with Logain being a co-leader to the channelers with Eggy.

 

Politics on all sides demand that each try to lead the group, and like I said I don't think she's power hungry for herself, but I believe she thinks the WT should be first amongst equals at worst. Whether or not she's right, is as you said a discussion for another time.

 

He also said that he’d meet her at the FoM and strongly implied that he'd listen to what she had to say.

 

Oh come on mate. You don't really believe that do you? Rand's mind is made up, the seals are to be broken regardless of what Egwene has to say. He antagonized her on purpose to get the reaction he did. In essence it was a perfect AS plan and Egwene fell right into it.

 

He manipulated her to organise everyone getting to FoM, but I think Rand Sedai meant every word he said. Dark Rand would have gone on regardless right or wrong, but Rand Sedai is capable of listening to other people, accepting advice and working on it. Now the question is whether or not Eg can truly understand the fundamental shift that happened in Rand between the reports she was having on him and the way he seemed when they met, and it's not unreasonable to say that she couldn't. With that in mind I think Eg should have whites and browns looking at the problem so she can try to reason him out of it. She knows that he doesn't have a full plan yet and that she only has a month to come up with an alternative plan. Not to have had people working on this seems out of character with how capable she's otherwise been.

[Suttree]

Note the denial by Egwene. Note the explanation on clearing the rubble - is that not quoting prophecy? THis answer which in the real world is quite inadequate, but in Randland is exactly what any Aes sedai would consider sufficient (in fact it sounds like almost everything that comes out of Moraines mouth in the first 3 books)

 

It most ceratainly isnt't quoting prophecy. It's quoting Herid Fel and is precisely the type of thing most people wouldn't know except for perhaps a few accomplished Browns in the library. Fel was considered eccentric even among the inventors after all.

 

As far as 'flippant' goes, Rand is nothing but polite (and mysterious, which can be infuriating too, all will admit). Egwene is the one who demands that he not turn his back on the Amilryn. Also, Egwene wants to talk about bonded sisters, as much as about breaking the seals. Its not like her priorities are all on the final battle.

 

By Rands own words he purposely antagonized her. He knew which buttons to push and went straight for them. It was a perfect AS manipulation and interestingly enough came right after he fully integrated.

 

Atrocities? What atrocities has he committed that Egwene is aware of at this point? I must not be remembering right, as the only act bad enough to be called an atrocity on Rand's ledger is Natrin's Barrow, and I didnt think she was aware of this in Ch 2.

 

She is aware of it. She also knows he abandoned an entire city to starve after he realized he couldn't use them as "tools". Further he slaughtered his own men in the Damona Mountain Campaign. She has been getting reports from every quarter about Rand's descent.

 

The plan is 1. break the seals in a month, 2. go to Shayol Ghul, 3. mumble mumble, 4. profit. Its a framework, outline, whatever. Its the sketch of a plan. We know that Team Rand is working on it, but we dont know how much One Power theory from the LTT memories he has put together. I suspect the lack of taking any detail of a plan on how to Seal the Bore is as much a plot device for the writer to not reveal the plan before the Big Event so as to no deflate the drama than anything. He is asking min for the key. After all, he didnt explain to Cadsuane (for us readers, anyhow) how he was going to cleanse Saidin in WH beyond "use the CK linked w/ Nynaeve". ITs one reason why Cadsuane is so awesome. I think, no matter our disagreement here, we can both agree on this: Why can't Egwene by more like Cadsuane? Anyway, if the readers just arent meant to know as I expect, not much point in hashing it out further.

 

Except he says quite clearly he doesn't know how to proceed. He needs Min to find the answer. I guess you could say thanks to Fel he knows what he has to do, but not how to get there

 

Perhaps. I just find it sad that events play out so that Egwene is the Amilryn, someone who knows the core of him so well, and has blanket distrust

of anything he says. Its probably because I really liked the way Egwene was with Rand at the end of TEOTW beginning of TGH, despite knowing he was a male channeler.

 

But we know she thinks he can be trusted with anything. Even the "fate of the world". That is why I think once he gets everyone on the same page she will fall in line. Again based on what has happend and how he went about things, it would be unrealistic for her to be ok with it. He said he purposely poured "hot oil" ino the WT and this is what he wanted to happen.

 

Again with that same dead horse. Unless Rand remained in the WT and bent them all to his will there's no way the Aes Sedai would work for his plan. And the little help the Aes Sedai may have been able to offer with figuring out his plan wasn't worth the time. Rand is busy he can't afford to stay weeks in the WT debating back and forth about the merits of breaking the seals. And we know that would have happened unless there was some major ta'veren influence. That's what always happens with Aes Sedai.

The tower library is completely useless in this regard.

 

Yes, you have made your opinion quite clear. As has been shown in debates on this topic over the years your view most certainy isnt the only one. In fact in old arguments most people thought it laughable that a fully integrated LTT with the support of Cads. Nyn etc wouldn't have been able to enlist the WT support in this. A 10 min lecture from Cads in itself would have been more than enough.

 

There's no book which explains how the DO has to be sealed. And Rand himself knows infinitely more about the nature of the seals and what went wrong the last time then all the Aes Sedai combined.

 

Yeah books are worthless. Might as well throw away Fel's then. You are forgetting that for all Rands knowledge he knows he can't do it the same way. Last time he was stumped. If not for a hint from someone in this age he would have no idea how to even get started. Point being you never know where that next hint or piece of info will come from and you cast as wide a net as possible to find it.

 

As for Min not knowing she was on the right track without Cadsuane, didn't Cadsuane just confirm her findings so that other Aes Sedai, Beldeine I believe it was, accepted them? To Rand Min's word alone seems to have been enough.

 

Min herself didnt know. She was putting forth a theory she thought may have been correct and Cads was able to confirm it. Surely you can see how that is important for Min to know which direction to continue down.

 

Doesn't that quote just show that Egwene has no idea at all what the seals do? And if she still doesn't know, doesn't that mean not a single Aes Sedai in the Tower could tell her about what the Seals do?

 

Since Eggy doesn't know it follows that every single AS doesn't without even Rand letting them know what they are looking for? What kind of logic is that? If they were given the proper info and put on the correct path there is most likely piece of writing in some forgotten scroll that could help.

[Knivy]

I have two questions on this..

 

1) what is Min's theory?

 

and

 

2) how did Cads confirm it?

[b3arz3rg3r]

Again with that same dead horse. Unless Rand remained in the WT and bent them all to his will there's no way the Aes Sedai would work for his plan. And the little help the Aes Sedai may have been able to offer with figuring out his plan wasn't worth the time. Rand is busy he can't afford to stay weeks in the WT debating back and forth about the merits of breaking the seals. And we know that would have happened unless there was some major ta'veren influence. That's what always happens with Aes Sedai.

The tower library is completely useless in this regard.

 

Yes, you have made your opinion quite clear. As has been shown in debates on this topic over the years your view most certainy isnt the only one. In fact in old arguments most people thought it laughable that a fully integrated LTT with the support of Cads. Nyn etc wouldn't have been able to enlist the WT support in this. A 10 min lecture from Cads in itself would have been more than enough.

 

Really? After all the problems in communication since TGH?

 

There's no book which explains how the DO has to be sealed. And Rand himself knows infinitely more about the nature of the seals and what went wrong the last time then all the Aes Sedai combined.

 

Yeah books are worthless. Might as well throw away Fel's then. You are forgetting that for all Rands knowledge he knows he can't do it the same way. Last time he was stumped. If not for a hint from someone in this age he would have no idea how to even get started. Point being you never know where that next hint or piece of info will come from and you cast as wide a net as possible to find it.

 

I meant that there is no book with a how to guide, but you took away my main intention by skipping the part about minds who thought logically about this problem from a common starting point being necessary instead of books. Also if you cast as wide a net as possible all you get is a lot of garbage you have to spend a lot of time sifting through before you stumble on any hidden gems. Time Rand doesn't feel he has.

I don't know the reasons for Rand's deadline, so I won't defend it. I'll just hope he has concrete reasons for giving Egwene and himself a month and hasn't just arbitrarily decided it. But assuming he has reasons for his deadline your approach seems rather pointless to me.

 

As for Min not knowing she was on the right track without Cadsuane, didn't Cadsuane just confirm her findings so that other Aes Sedai, Beldeine I believe it was, accepted them? To Rand Min's word alone seems to have been enough.

 

Min herself didnt know. She was putting forth a theory she thought may have been correct and Cads was able to confirm it. Surely you can see how that is important for Min to know which direction to continue down.

 

I don't have the books handy, but you may be right on this one.

 

 

Doesn't that quote just show that Egwene has no idea at all what the seals do? And if she still doesn't know, doesn't that mean not a single Aes Sedai in the Tower could tell her about what the Seals do?

 

Since Eggy doesn't know it follows that every single AS doesn't without even Rand letting them know what they are looking for? What kind of logic is that? If they were given the proper info and put on the correct path there is most likely piece of writing in some forgotten scroll that could help.

 

Well, I just assumed that once Rand told Egwene about his plans she would do the intelligent thing and try to gather all the avaiable information on the seals and that any Aes Sedai with particular knowledge on the matter would freely volunteer it. Since a month after Rand told her about his plan she still doesn't see the necessity of broken seals I assume no Aes Sedai except those with Rand knows. And if no Aes Sedai knows about that what use would their input in Rand's planning be? Atleast Min with her Bachelors degree in waitressing and her Masters in Pattern Viewing has spend months on this matter. All the Aes Sedai would have to start at zero.

[Suttree]

Atleast Min with her Bachelors degree in waitressing and her Masters in Pattern Viewing has spend months on this matter. All the Aes Sedai would have to start at zero.

 

That was quite good...

[thisguy]

The Tower, from what we know from the books, has done absolutely nothing to figure out how to close the bore. From what we're shown in the books Rand with his new LTT Technology TM and Min through her reading of Herid Fel's books and notes are the only two people actively trying to find a solution to the problem. Honestly, who cares what Egwene thinks?