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DRAGONMOUNT

A WHEEL OF TIME COMMUNITY

etched Chaos

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  1. You completely missed the point of needing the taint in my post. Rand without LTT's memories, his knowledge, his experiences isn't enough, that wall that separated LTT needed breaking down and madness seemed the only method of doing so. The taint had a positive impact for the first time. Then Nynaeve learned to heal the madness, seems to me the pattern was rectifying the taint once it had served it's purpose.
  2. Ironically that is what Rand is proposing now without any plan in place as of yet. I don't think so no. I was only pointing out that we don't know her thoughts and someone could make that argument based on the info we have. The pattern most likely. It certainly wasn't a fear to take risks. We know this based on her actions in saving the world during the breaking when she earned the nickname "Shadar Nor". To my mind, if you deem a plan too dangerous you don't have to pinpoint every possible reason why. For instance someone could say surfing Mavericks is too dangerous because you might drown. If you then end up being attacked and killed by a great white then it was still too dangerous, if not for the original reason given. She deemed the plan too dangerous and ended up being correct for all that there likely was no other option for LTT. Again I believe the pattern orchestrated the whole thing. Rand is working on a plan though, he's set out Min to try and give a fresh perspective and has basically given Egwene a kick up the backside to try and get going on it too, only signs show that she hasn't. Yes, they could make that argument but it has little weight behind it. Which is why I usually ignore it completely, there's no point going down the path that perhaps they still had time. Basically because they really didn't, months is a scant amount of time to do what needed doing for Latra's plan to still be feasible. But that's past the bore being sealed, the big risk had been taken and all that was left was to fight all that remained. There's one thing to fight the Shadow one on one, it's quite another to take the risk LTT did. The problem was that you labelled her as a correct for thinking it was too dangerous, that is a wrong statement. Because too dangerous implies that the risk outweighs the consequences of not doing anything, the risks were never more than the consequences of doing nothing, because doing nothing would be the end of everything. It was a desperate gambit, by desperate people and Latra opposed it (Pattern induced or not), she opposed it to the bitter end even when it was all they had left. If the Pattern played no part in this then she was wrong to do so, it's fine if you can use another option, but once you reach the stage of needing to act and that's all you have left, you fall in line.
  3. Actually that's not entirely correct. Yes the keys were lost but we know that the SaSG says "should any one of the three major offensives commanded by Forsaken break through the end would be only a matter of time, perhaps as little as months." So "if" the offensives were able to break through the end could have "perhaps" come in months. At the very least then there was a period of time to continue attempting to locate the keys before the strike. Now I'm not saying that is the best course of action, but someone could make an argument that there was still time. We don't know what her thoughts were only that she deemed LTT's plan too dangerous and that she ended up being correct. As pointed out LTT had no plan for the actual war only the sealing. Despite the opposition it was still a joint effort for the light to win and escape the breaking. As has been mentioned the pattern likely needed her opposition to give the light a chance. This time around the opposite is true so your point concerning Eggy doesn't really hold water, especially when she claims he can be trusted with "the world". Once Rand moves things beyond having an idea to break the seals and Min comes up with a plan for the bore I fully expect Eggy to fall in line. I'm sorry but this line is absolute codswallop. Too dangerous is the bore getting ripped open and the Dark One walking freely. Tainting Saidin and breaking the World, whilst incredibly bad don't even come close to what would happen if they never tried. They gained 3000 years from his plan that was 'too dangerous', any General or War Commander would take that knowing the other consequences. It was a war, there was always going to be collateral damage from whatever option they took. As for the in months lines, do you really think they would've succeeded in gaining the access keys in a few months? If the Foresaken had broken through they would've had even more trouble locating the keys. From your replies you seem unable to grasp the fact that Latra was opposing the only viable option when almost all hope was lost. Was it pride? A fear to take risks? Who knows, but any rational commander would've realised that this was the last throw of the dice, a final hail mary, if you don't take it, you are almost destined to lose. So why continue to oppose it? Yes, we know of what the consequences would be, but the taint was never once considered by anyone in the AoL, so using that as a reason is illogical and wrong. We're trying to see through their POV with the facts they have at their disposal, but some of you seem to add all the hindsight on top as well.
  4. Been thinking about the taint and the patternin relation to Rand and LTT's memories and I'm beginning to think the taint was cause by the pattern aligning things for the 3rd age. Let us consider that rand needs LTT's memories, experiences and knowledge to win, it's not enough to be the DR he's needs LTT in there as well. The problem is that without the taint there's nothing really there to help break down those partitions in his mind that kept LTT at bay. With the taint, his madness slowly eroded those walls until eventually he had his epiphany and was whole. The taint for all it's evil was actually required for the light to win imo. But how could the pattern cause the taint? Well, quite simply LTT is Taveren, in Latra opposing him the pattern could've been giving her a nudge towards never following his plan regardless of what happens. Then when she has a plan, a viable one, everything goes wrong with it, the Shadow swarms the location of the CK, the access keys are lost. At this point you'd think any sane, rational person would follow that riskier plan, but Latra did not, perhaps the pattern kept her from following, kept her opposing purely so the taint could happen. Now if the pattern did cause the taint if not directly but by shifting things for it to potentially happen it puts a how new light on the LTT vs. Latra dynamic. Both are almost helpless in this, the pattern needs the taint for the light to win now, not then, so it was going to happen. Or not?
  5. If Latra hadn't opposed LTT, the women would have gone as insane as the men. Her opposition might have been misguided, but ultimately it proved to be the correct choice. Had she not taken the stand she did, things would have been much, much worse. Also, it is worth bearing in mind that it is only by a fluke that LTT's strike actually helped the Light. The Light's forces were at risk of being overrun if any of the three major offensives they were faced with broke through - LTT's plan did absolutely nothing to counter those major offensives. It dealt only with Shai'tan and the sealing of the Bore, not the armies that the Shadow had already amassed. If he hadn't caught thirteen of the Shadow's highest ranking people, then the Light would likely still have lost. For Egwene to put forward an alternative, first Rand has to put forward a plan. He hasn't yet, because he doesn't have a plan. He has an idea - break the seals. That's not enough. Did you even understand what my point was? At all? There was no other option once Latra's plan was impossible, if they don't strike at SG, they lose, the Dark wins, that's it, there are no second chances, no miracle cures, they do nothing the dark wins. So really what you're advocating is that the taint on Saidin is worse than the Dark winning.
  6. That's the thing, there has been no final decision made whether to support him or not. That is why they are meeting at the FoM... As for Rand having a plan we know he doesn't. He has asked Min to find the answer for him. ToM This is exactly the the type of problems that come up when people let bias inform their posts on characters. Male channelers have been second to only the DO for 3,000 years in this world. We have not seen one single female channeler not be scared of the taint(and rightly so) aside from Cads and we know that is because weaves can't touch her. So Egwene having a totally normal in world reaction is "worrying" and yet you disregard the fact that when Mat etc find out Rand could channel and turned his back on his friend she is the one person that whole heartedly suported him? Come on mate, there are more than enough things to fault Eggy for without having to reach like this. Lastly for those people thinking she will not listen to reason if Rand lays out a rational plan I have already provided a quote of Eggy saying Rand could be trusted with the world. What more do you need. Really? You posted a Eggy quote? That was Min he was talking to. As for the rest, the problem I have with Egwene shying away from saidin it because it's a childish irrationality, her whole opinion of men and male channellers is that of a child. The bias would work if the majority of the major characters weren't able to put the stories told to them as children behind them and embrace the changes being wrought. Egwene is still stuck in some ill-formed opinion of the world when it comes to men, she's never managed to leave it behind her. She rises all the way from Innkeeper's daughter to Amirilyn and yet she is unable to let go of her childish and incorrect opinions of men. This is a problem.
  7. Amreading LOC, interesting moment just happened. Just before Rand is kidnapped by the AS he hides Egwene behind a weave of Saidin. Egwene realises it's Saidin and is repulsed by it, thinking the taint could actually infect her if she stood too close to the weave. This is the sort of thinking that permeates her opinion of Rand, it's worrying really, she's willing to open her mind to possibilities and whatnot in everything but men and men channeling.
  8. The point is Egwene already asked Rand to plan and he refused. Why would you think she wouldn't listen to reason if Min actually figures out how to seal the bore and Rand lays it out rationally. As for Latra she claimed LTTs plan was too dangerous and she ended up being right. As much as LTT saved the world the pattern most likely made sure the women were not involved so the world would not be destroyed in the breaking. Not to mention without Latra and her "Shadar Nor" persona the light likely doesn't make it out of the breaking. Since when has Egwene ever been rational when listening to Rand? He has LTT's memories, his experiences, his knowledge and as such he's better placed to make a decision like breaking the seals than anyone else, but if he explained that to Egwene she'd still oppose him. The books are filled with Egwene thinking Rand is a woolheaded fool or shuddering at the thought of him channelling. She has zero respect for what he can do and what he's achieved, if anything she thinks even less of him now than she did when he was just a woolheaded fool from the Two Rivers and was just thought of as taveren. She was not proved right, you do understand what the other option was for them at that time right? If LTT doesn't strike at SG it's over, the dark wins. Latra's plan was irrelevant, it could not be executed in time for them to save humanity. There was nothing else that could be done, nothing, if Latra's plan was still feasible you;d be right but it wasn't. So what your basically arguing is that LTT's plan was more dangerous than allowing the Dark One to win. You do realise how illogical that is right? They gained 3000 years out of his plan, the price they paid for it was steep but I have no doubt if you told someone to choose between letting the Do win or tainting Saidin and breaking the world, but having a chance to try again they'd take the latter. In simple terms, there was only LTT's plan in the end, Latra's failed, could not be done, so what else would you have him do?
  9. To those who say Latra was right, you're incorrect because as soon as her plan proved impossible to carry out within the time constraints they had, LTT's plan was all that was left. Flawed plan or not it was all they had and yet she opposed it all the way to the bitter end and the subsequent breaking. Yet LTT never once opposed Latra's plan he assisted with it until he had no choice but to commit himself and his 100 companions on the strike at SG. If LTT doesn't strike at SG, the light loses, it's as simple as that. You can debate the merits of his plan with hindsight, but given there were two plans on the table and one of them was impossible to carry out in time to save them all, anyone opposing the other plan is condemning them all to destruction. You're free to oppose something you deem risky but as soon as that risk is outweighed by the consequences of not acting you forget your prior opinions and back it. This is not about what happened after, it's about the idea of opposing your only method of salvation even when there is no other choice. In this way if Egwene follows suit, she'll condemn them all. If she wants to oppose Rand she needs to put an alternative on the table and it needs to be viable enough to be considered. It's no good going to Merrilor and saying, I oppose the breaking of the seals, we should wait until another plan presents itself. That plan may never materialise and you've then given the Shadow all the advantage.
  10. Agreed about the shadow not paying attention early enough. But there is still a chance she could turn, knowingly or unknowingly. The main key is that she opposes Rand in almost everything, it's not that opposing him is bad but it's how she opposes him, it's always that she knows better, he's just a man, he's insane needs guiding etc etc. A shrewd operator would exploit that until she could only oppose Rand by turning to the dark, even if unknowingly. Another thought is that a few of the Foresaken were turned because they were so jealous of Lews Therin that to oppose him was the only option and ultimately to oppose Lews/Rand you need to be with the dark. Egwene has shown a jealousy towards Rand since the moment he was thought of as Taveren, this can fester in the subconscious and evidently her jealousy has never abated. She is on the side of the light right now, but her priorities are about the White Tower, she's more concerned with the status of the WT Post-LB than anything else. This if anything is not a good thing for the light, sure the WT being whole helps all, but if the WT repeats the same mistakes made when Latra led them away from Lews Therin then the dark will win. Right now, there are no signs that Egwene will fall in line for the good of all, not just the good of the WT. *quick edit* For those saying her turning would not work in the story, I'm not sure that's correct. Thematically we've been given enough subtext and evidence that if eGwene turned it is entirely justifiable. The only way it would be wrong is if she is already a BA, that would be a joke, but her turning in the final book through outside influences could work very well. If she turned, the whole landscape of the books would change and Egwene would suddenly become one of the great fiction characters.
  11. Right, first post and everything and I've decided to jump in at the deep end with something that has been bugging me about Egwene. Now, I've recently started rereading the books and am currently about to complete book #5 and all through my rereading I've become drawn to certain aspects of Egwene's nature that are less than admirable and wondered if they might lead to her turning from the light and embracing the dark. Now, I'm not saying she will or that I think she will, but I would not be surprised if she did, and could see the reasoning in it too. Alot of my suspicions about this is drawn from her personality traits and how she perceives certain people and aspects of the world. It's not that she's a bad person who would be particularly thought of as someone who could turn bad from the surface but as you scratch deeper you begin to see little traits and attitudes that could fester if given the right push, or rather wrong push. This might be a meandering mess as it's 2.30 am, but please bear with me. Firstly is her jealous streak, especially when it comes to the men. Frequently in her POV's she's thought of what Rand and the other two could do and lamented that fact and then followed up with believing they are likely living a life of luxury, or have no suffered like she has, e.g her moan about having to scrub pots. She also could not stand to have Rand's weaves be invisble to her, something Rahvin himself stated about Saidar. Which also led to her presumption that she knew better than Moiraine when it came to women being unable to teach men to channel. It didn't matter that there was zero evidence that a woman could teach a man to channel nor that her vastly more experienced peers told her so, she didn't believe it could be beyond her and so she ignored their knowledge and tried herself. In itself being jealous isn't bad, but Egwene is jealous of anyone who can do things she cannot, she is especially annoyed if it's a man. These are traits can easily be exploited by someone, all it needs is the right push, a few lies and Egwene might tie herself to the DO purely from the promise of being granted the powers 'withheld' from her, e.g. Saidin. We all know that would be a blatant lie but considering she ignored the inability for women to teach men aspect, i can see her ignoring that too and jumping right in. Her sexism, oh boy, this is a biggie. I'm actually going to leave the analysis of this as it'd go on forever and well we all know how high her opinion is of men, especially Rand. I suspect a Foresaken could coerce her to the dark purely by playing on her sexist traits. Her lust for power. I use the term lust as i find it hard to see what else it can be. Egwene has been incredibly adamant that nothing will stop her from 'learning' all she can. Now indepedently having a love for learning is a good thing, but it's not really learning she yearns for, it's the power that comes with the knowledge. All through her arc she has done everything she can to take that next step on the learning ladder, first she wants to be a wisdom, then Aes Sedai, then Dreamwalker, then Amirilyn. Every time a better avenue for power opened up to her she never hesitated, she shrugged of her previous ambitions and dove headfirst into the next step, never once erring from that journey. She also showed her manipulative side in all of this, when learning with the Wise ones, she lied to them multiple times, pretended to be meek and did whatever punishment they doled out so that she could continue her education. She even used a friend as a scapegoat and distraction so that the Wise One;s did not catch her when she was breaking the rules they set her. Only when they'd finished learning did she confess. The cynical side of me says she did that purely so the relationship stayed strong for future use. This is a trait the DO can easily exploit, all that needs doing is for power to be presented to her and she'd grab it with both hands. If you can hide the fact it;s from the DO, she'll jump right in without a moment's thought. Right, I'm very tired, so will cut short, but there's also her hypocrisy, the joy she took from bullying and again her jealousy of Rand. If I were foresaken, I'd just offer her the chance to usurp Rand's position as the most powerful leader and channeller and Egwene would fall right in line.
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